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MeklorIlavator
2007-01-15, 10:44 PM
What are some of the better classes for ranged combat? This includes prestige classes that one would multi class into. I have never created a range focused character in DnD before, and would appreciate any guide lines you would give me. At this moment I was thinking of Scout X/Order of the Bow initiate X. Thank you.

Dhavaer
2007-01-15, 10:59 PM
Ranger, Fighter, Scout and Rogue. Possibly Hexblade/Arcane Archer or Duskblade/Arcane Archer. Scouts, as a general rule, don't prestige well, you'd be better off going straight Scout in most cases.

Aximili
2007-01-15, 11:27 PM
Scout is definitely worth going all the way. But (unless you take Greater Manyshot) you won't be the best of ranged attackers.

If you do go with scout, take Greater Manyshot

I_Got_This_Name
2007-01-15, 11:33 PM
Ranged combat wants a lot of feats; I'd probably go with Fighter, then prestige out into something, or multiclass, once I have the feats I want.

PinkysBrain
2007-01-15, 11:37 PM
What are some of the better classes for ranged combat? This includes prestige classes that one would multi class into. I have never created a range focused character in DnD before, and would appreciate any guide lines you would give me. At this moment I was thinking of Scout X/Order of the Bow initiate X. Thank you.
It completely depends on what books you have available and to what extent you hate spell casting. With SpC available a pure ranger is perfectly viable choice (even moreso with CoR available) thanks to spellcasting.

PS. forget about OotBI, it's atrociously bad.

Aximili
2007-01-16, 12:04 AM
Ranged combat wants a lot of feats; I'd probably go with Fighter, then prestige out into something, or multiclass, once I have the feats I want.
But ranged combat doesn't necessarily need a lot of feats. You only really need Point blank shot, and Precise shot.

I don't remember when the scout gets bonus feats, nor which ones are they, but I think you can manage Manyshot by 6th level. After that, it's just a matter of preference.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-16, 12:11 AM
Ranger for two levels, barbarian for one level, fighter for two levels, scout for remainder before you hit a good prestige class. Be a human. You've got great health, decent skillage, nearly full BAB, and assuming you hit your prestige at 7, six feats, plus a freebie track and rapid shot from ranger for a mind numbing 8 feats in six levels (!). Obtain a mithril breastplate ASAP, unless you're going to dump into dexterity, in which case you might as well just take cheaper and cheaper armors until you outgrow wearing armor altogether.

McBish
2007-01-16, 12:31 AM
I like straight fighter. At level ten you can have four or so attacks with the first two being above +20.

MeklorIlavator
2007-01-16, 01:22 AM
I like straight fighter. At level ten you can have four or so attacks with the first two being above +20.
How exactly would that work?

PinkysBrain
2007-01-16, 01:43 AM
If you have spell compendium you need at least 1 level in a class which can use wands of hunter's mercy and find the gap ... these spells are too good to ignore.

PS. Meklor, (improved) rapid shot and haste/speed-weapon.

Matthew
2007-01-16, 07:52 AM
I like straight fighter. At level ten you can have four or so attacks with the first two being above +20.


How exactly would that work?

He probably means via Rapid Shot, in which case it would be three attacks at Level 10, four attacks at Level 11.

Elf Fighter 10
Base Attack Bonus +10
Dexterity 22 (+6 Ranged Attack Bonus)
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Great Bow), Weapon Focus (Great Bow), Weapon Specialisation (Great Bow) Greater Weapon Focus (Great Bow) = +3 AB, +3 DB,

Attack Bonus: +19 before Magic, say a +3 Great Bow = +22 AB

Level 10 Rapid Shot
20 / 20 / 15
Level 11 Rapid Shot
21 / 21 / 15 / 10

Damage: 1D10+6 (discounting Strength and other Magical Enchancements above and beyond the Great Bow +3)

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-16, 07:55 AM
Try a cleric. Clerics make great archers, with Zen Archery letting them focus on WIS, which is also good for spellcasting. Divine Favor adds AB/damage, Divine Power gives you your full BAB, Divine Agility grants a +10 enhancement bonus to dexterity (if you don't go the Zen Archery route)--AND you're still a full spellcaster, with fun spells like Repulsion. Be an elf for bow proficiency and take the Elf domain for free Point Blank Shot.

1: PBS (Elf domain), WF Longbow (War domain), Precise Shot.
3: Rapid Shot
6: Zen Archery (switch with 3 if you have a low dex)
9: Quick Spell

And improvise from there.

Matthew
2007-01-16, 07:57 AM
*Laughs* Trust Bears to bring out the Cleric.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-16, 07:58 AM
I'm just saying. Clerics make great archers... funnily enough, because they can do more than just arch (although they're as good at it as anyone).

Edit: another alternative is Psychic Warrior--Zen Archery works well here, too. Damage adders like Prescience, Offensive really help archers. and various powers let you circumvent blindness, darkness, et cetera--you'll have a solid and very consistent damage output.

Matthew
2007-01-16, 08:00 AM
They certainly do. They make great everythings, except maybe Wizards.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-16, 08:00 AM
Clerics actually make decent wizards, too, with the Magic and Spell domains. :P

Matthew
2007-01-16, 08:01 AM
I thought they might... can't be as good as a Wizard, though, right?

PinkysBrain
2007-01-16, 08:06 AM
Archivists are much better archers than clerics ... the cleric does not have access to spells like arrow storm, hunter's mercy, find the gap, arrow split, etc etc.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-16, 08:08 AM
Archivists are much better archers than clerics ... the cleric does not have access to spells like arrow storm, hunter's mercy, find the gap, arrow split, etc etc.

No elf domain (takes more feats), no Zen Archery, crappy BAB whenever you don't have Divine Power up...

Matthew
2007-01-16, 08:11 AM
Heh, one of my favourite (A)D&D Characters was a Bow using Elf Cleric... even under that edition he was kicking ass.

PinkysBrain
2007-01-16, 08:17 AM
You can take zen archery just fine ... with find the gap your attack bonus doesn't matter a whole lot, it's wraith strike for manyshot.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-16, 08:20 AM
You can take zen archery just fine ... with find the gap your attack bonus doesn't matter a whole lot, it's wraith strike for manyshot.
You can take Zen Archery, but it's useless, because Archivist casting is INT-based. The point of the cleric taking Zen Archery is that his AB and casting become based on the same stat.

Find the Gap only applies to your first attack (i.e. the one that needs it least)--plus, you can and will run out.

PinkysBrain
2007-01-16, 09:04 AM
Manyshot is only one attack.

Maclav
2007-01-16, 09:14 AM
Try a cleric. Clerics make great archers, with Zen Archery letting them focus on WIS, which is also good for spellcasting. Divine Favor adds AB/damage, Divine Power gives you your full BAB, Divine Agility grants a +10 enhancement bonus to dexterity (if you don't go the Zen Archery route)--AND you're still a full spellcaster, with fun spells like Repulsion. Be an elf for bow proficiency and take the Elf domain for free Point Blank Shot.

1: PBS (Elf domain), WF Longbow (War domain), Precise Shot.
3: Rapid Shot
6: Zen Archery (switch with 3 if you have a low dex)
9: Quick Spell

And improvise from there.

What he said. Best archer in the game.

Ramza00
2007-01-16, 09:17 AM
Going back to the original poster (ignores the Cleric Archer post even though Cleric Archer is good).

If you can get access to the upcomming complete scoundrel, this build will be good.

Ranger 16/Scout 4 (not neccessarly in that order).

This is because of these two feats it has.

Swift Hunter[3]
Pre Reqs:`Favored enemy, skirmish +1d6/+1 AC
Benefit: Ranger and scout levels stack for skirmish bonuses, favored enemies

Improved Skirmish[3]
Pre Reqs:Skirmish +2d6/+1 AC
Benefit: Move 20 feet to gain +2d6 points of damage, +2 AC


You take Greater Manyshot and become a "sniper" shooting 4 arrows per round (19 BAB) each doing 7d6 skirmish damage+1d8+Weapon Enchantments. Add the splitting weapon enchantment from Champions of Ruin and you will be doing this amount of damage.

8 arrows (assuming all hit)*
7d6 Skirmish+1d8 Arrow Base+1d6 Bow Damage Enchantment+Strength modifer+5 Greater Magic Weapon+Arrow Damage (Get arrows of bane if your campaign focuses on something special.)
In sum you should be doing at least 280 damage per round at lvl 20 and are likely to do more.

Finally supposedly the Swift Hunter feat is supposed to give you the ability to do precision damage against one of your favored enemies even if they are normally immune to precision damage (such as undead or constructs).

MeklorIlavator
2007-01-16, 03:30 PM
Try a cleric. Clerics make great archers, with Zen Archery letting them focus on WIS, which is also good for spellcasting. Divine Favor adds AB/damage, Divine Power gives you your full BAB, Divine Agility grants a +10 enhancement bonus to dexterity (if you don't go the Zen Archery route)--AND you're still a full spellcaster, with fun spells like Repulsion. Be an elf for bow proficiency and take the Elf domain for free Point Blank Shot.

1: PBS (Elf domain), WF Longbow (War domain), Precise Shot.
3: Rapid Shot
6: Zen Archery (switch with 3 if you have a low dex)
9: Quick Spell

And improvise from there.

Wow, that would be awesome, but the setting wouldn't support it, unfortunately. I will probably go with Ramza00's suggestion, but cleric archers are now on my future character list.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-16, 03:38 PM
Why wouldn't the setting support it? What setting is this, anyway?
Aren't there any elves? Any clerics?

Matthew
2007-01-16, 03:43 PM
Maybe he means Zen Archery is not available?

MeklorIlavator
2007-01-16, 03:44 PM
the dm has us all start in a "hidden valley" that we have spent all of our lives in. The only clerics are ones of Bahmut or Pelor(of which we already have 1), and I don't think either of those deities is really right for this character.

PS I know the story sounds corny, and it looks like it will get worse, at least in the intro, but it might get better ,eventually.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-16, 03:44 PM
Ah.
Well, cleric-archers can work fine even without it--you're an elf, you should have a good Dex (and this way, Divine Agility can help you). It just means your WIS will be a few points lower.

Edit: ah, yeah, deity restrictions put a crimp on things. You need to spend lots more feats to get this to work without an elven cleric (bow proficiency) with the Elf domain (PBS).

Although if you can use Flaws to get extra feats, a human could work just fine.

dead_but_dreaming
2007-01-16, 03:46 PM
warlock/fighter with apropriate feats?

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-16, 03:50 PM
warlock/fighter with apropriate feats?

Dear god, no. Archery will do so much more than a watered-down Eldritch Blast.

dead_but_dreaming
2007-01-16, 03:52 PM
Are you sure? I mean, purely damage-wise the warlock eventually get a few dice more than an average archer...

Maclav
2007-01-16, 03:59 PM
It is possible to do a bow cleric with a human. Start with a level of fighter (or two) and then switch over to cleric. This gets you the bow prof and point blank shot, precise shot and rapid shot/zen archery at lvl 1 so you end up a feet faster than the elf. When you switch over to cleric hopefully you have moved out of your valley and found a deity with bows and war domain to pick up the free weapon focus. This method also frees up a weaker domain (elf) so you can take something more effective. It does cost you a spell casting level, but it can be as effective. Personally I prefer the elf, as I prefer the flavour of it.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-16, 03:59 PM
Are you sure? I mean, purely damage-wise the warlock eventually get a few dice more than an average archer...

The Warlock gets it once a round. At level 20, the Warlock's, what, 9d6? once a round is pretty much irrelevant. The archer full attacks. Add in a Splitting bow, and a fighter-archer with the right stuff can one-shot a balor.
(Then he hears "make a will save" and wets himself, but that's another story.)

Maclav
2007-01-16, 04:00 PM
Are you sure? I mean, purely damage-wise the warlock eventually get a few dice more than an average archer...

They aren't even in the same ballpark. The archer will always have a better damage, assuming appropriate wealth levels.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-16, 04:02 PM
The Fighter 1/Cleric X idea would work. You'd lose a caster level, but hey. That'll keep you in line with the rest of the party. ;)

TheOOB
2007-01-16, 05:14 PM
I personally prefer ranger archers, complete adventurer gives rangers a few cool spells to help with ranged combat (including arrow mind which makes melee weapons near worthless to you). Rangers also get lots of cool skills and abilities to make themselves useful out of combat.

Just make sure to find magic items to increase your damage as bow damage doesn't scale well.

MeklorIlavator
2007-01-16, 09:22 PM
Just make sure to find magic items to increase your damage as bow damage doesn't scale well.
Are there specific items(besides enchantments/composite bows)
Also, is a greatbow worth the feat?

Matthew
2007-01-17, 05:59 AM
Enchanted Ammunition is what you need to increase damage.

Great Bow is not worth a Feat if you don't have them to spare, as the damage increase is marginal, same as Bastard Sword.

PinkysBrain
2007-01-17, 11:07 AM
What he said. Best archer in the game.
No, Artificers do it better (in general).

Maclav
2007-01-17, 01:23 PM
No, Artificers do it better (in general).

Well, they do everything better and don't count. :)

Aximili
2007-01-17, 05:20 PM
Go with fighter, use a light crossbow, get rapid reload and that feat from PHII that you apply 1/2DEX to damage rolls. Mix it up with stuff like rapid shot and a splitting crossbow and you'll end up having quite a bunch of fun.

Not saying you'll reduce your opponents to tiny pieces, but you'll get them dead.

I particularly like the style of using a crossbow effectively. Specially if you adopt Stephen King's Gunslinger's atitude.

MeklorIlavator
2007-01-17, 06:14 PM
Go with fighter, use a light crossbow, get rapid reload and that feat from PHII that you apply 1/2DEX to damage rolls. Mix it up with stuff like rapid shot and a splitting crossbow and you'll end up having quite a bunch of fun.
That would require a multi class for sneak attack or skirmish(if I read it right), and a regular bow would do more damage, and fit into the wilderness theme more.

Aximili
2007-01-17, 06:27 PM
That would require a multi class for sneak attack or skirmish(if I read it right), and a regular bow would do more damage, and fit into the wilderness theme more.
A bow build can easily do more damage than this crossbow build. But that doesn't make it weak.

I just pointed it out cause I find it stylish:smallcool:

And why do you think it needs sneak or skirmish? You'll be fireing a full attack every round, how will skirmish help?

MeklorIlavator
2007-01-17, 07:53 PM
And why do you think it needs sneak or skirmish? You'll be fireing a full attack every round, how will skirmish help?
I belive that it is a prerequesite for the feat. Also, I dislike crossbows, but thank you for the suggestion.