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ken-do-nim
2007-01-15, 11:01 PM
Okay, the purpose of this particular build is to show off how cool it would be to nail every baddie within 2 squares (or more if enlarged) with one's spiked chain, so for those of you who believe whirlwind attack is not worth it, that's okay but no need to bring it up. I'm writing this tonight to add the new feat deadly defense into the fold. I like the feats I've chosen; I'm just not sure about the order.

Human fighter
H1: Exotic Weapon Spiked Chain
1: Weapon Focus Spiked Chain
F1: Dodge
F2: Mobility
3: Combat Expertise
F4: Weapon Specialization Spiked Chain
6: Spring Attack
F6: Whirlwind Attack
F8: Power Attack
9: Improved Critical Spiked Chain
F10: Cleave (or Improved Disarm) ** Edit: combat reflexes!
12: Improved Trip
F12: Greater Weapon Focus Spiked Chain
F14: Deadly Defense
15: Precise Swing (from Eberron book to deal with cover)
** Edit: Karmic strike
F16: Melee Weapon Mastery
18: Elusive Target
F18: Weapon Supremacy Spiked Chain

So putting this all together, if our hero is surrounded, he can attack a total of 8 adjacent foes and 16 others adjacent to them. Thanks to precise swing, there's no -4 penalty to hit the other 16. Too bad I don't have quickdraw in there so that he can't try to trip everybody, and if one fails he can drop the spiked chain and instantly draw another. I guess even a fighter can't have every good feat!

Anyways, thoughts, comments? I've only played this build up to 2nd level so I didn't even get the ball rolling.

Edit note: Duh about those 2 missing ones. It was late, I was tired, so many feats to keep track of ...

Aximili
2007-01-15, 11:22 PM
I don't see combat reflexes! Where is combat reflexes??!!:smalleek:

Skyserpent
2007-01-16, 12:38 AM
*sigh* This is one for Bears...

Or maybe Fax...

Where the hell is Thray!?

Yeah, but Combat Reflexes is a MUST. Along with Disarm and trip

Njerus_Xhazekarath
2007-01-16, 12:46 AM
Maybe a dip in the Swordsage class (ToB) would be nice too. It gives you a free Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain, if you choose Shadow Hand as your discipline), and lets you have Shadow Blade feat, adding your dex bonus to your spiked chain damage as well as the strength bonus.

jlousivy
2007-01-16, 12:55 AM
with improved trip you don't have the chance to be tripped yourself i believe.

trade out cleave with combat reflexes.

TheOOB
2007-01-16, 01:12 AM
Drop cleave, whirlwind attack, and spring attack. They are all fairly horrible feats for this kind of build. If any enemy is so weak that cleave is used often, then you don't need cleave. If an enemy is so weak that whirlwind attack will kill multiple enemies, then you don't need whirlwind attack. You allready have the ability to move and make a single attack in a round, so spring attack is kinda pointless.

Your build needs improved trip and stand still and combat reflexes ASAP, by level 3 or 4. You can hold off on the weapon focus tree. Their only purpose it to qualify for weapon supremacy so take them at later levels when you allready have what you need.

You also need karmic strike(complete warrior) or robilars gambit, anything that gets you extra attacks is great.

ken-do-nim
2007-01-16, 07:17 AM
It was late at night, and I was so excited about introducing deadly defense and elusive target that I forgot about combat reflexes & karmic strike. I will amend the 1st post.

Yakk
2007-01-16, 10:04 AM
Whirlwind doesn't have to kill.

Spring attack lets you attack, then withdraw, forcing your opponent to move through your threatened area (and getting an AoO every round on them).

Lidjis
2007-01-16, 10:34 AM
Weapon focus and specialization aren't really that important for a control build, and other feats work much better. Also, consider saving a feat by using a guisarme and armor spikes instead since in 95 percent of combats they will be just as useful as a spiked chain. Improved trip is also a must.

pestilenceawaits
2007-01-16, 11:04 AM
This may seem like a simple question but does spiked chain get 1.5 times strength bonus and x2 on power attacks?

ken-do-nim
2007-01-16, 11:12 AM
Weapon focus and specialization aren't really that important for a control build, and other feats work much better. Also, consider saving a feat by using a guisarme and armor spikes instead since in 95 percent of combats they will be just as useful as a spiked chain. Improved trip is also a must.

I suppose the downside to armor spikes is that you don't have all the weapon specific feats with it (if you have them with the guisarme), but then again you start out advocating against them so at least that's consistent. Aside from tripping, I think this is a fighter turned area of effect damager, so I don't think it is a true control build. I think this guy would be great in an army. Maybe he wades into a horde of goblins or orcs and takes out 20 or so at a pop :-)

PS: To the last writer, since spiked chain is a two-handed weapon yes it gives 1.5 x str damage & x2 power attack.

ampcptlogic
2007-01-16, 11:23 AM
Spring attack lets you attack, then withdraw, forcing your opponent to move through your threatened area (and getting an AoO every round on them).

Yes, but always be aware of your surroundings (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html)

pestilenceawaits
2007-01-16, 11:28 AM
Can you still get 1.5 str when using weapon finesse it doesn't seem like there is a problem with it RAW but it seems kind of counter intuitive.

MrNexx
2007-01-16, 11:53 AM
Much of the RAW is counter-intuitive.

pestilenceawaits
2007-01-16, 12:00 PM
Much of the RAW is counter-intuitive.

Sad but true. If I can apply 1.5 str. x2 power attack and weapon finess I think I just found my new favorite weapon (too bad I am so late to jump on the bandwagon)

tarbrush
2007-01-16, 12:36 PM
It's why the spiked chain is considered teh ubar weapon in the game, if you'll pardon my leetspeak.

Thomas
2007-01-16, 12:49 PM
What's counter-intuitive about it? It doesn't matter whether you're using Weapon Finesse or not, you're not just awkwardly poking your opponent with a weapon - you're putting your strength (starting from the legs) behind those attacks.

Elven courtblade; exotic two-handed sword that works with Weapon Finesse. I lub it.

pestilenceawaits
2007-01-16, 12:55 PM
What's counter-intuitive about it? It doesn't matter whether you're using Weapon Finesse or not, you're not just awkwardly poking your opponent with a weapon - you're putting your strength (starting from the legs) behind those attacks.

Elven courtblade; exotic two-handed sword that works with Weapon Finesse. I lub it.

When I think of finesse I think of carefully placed shots. I just can't see a surgeon placing a scalpel carefully while swinging it with all his strength. I don't have a problem with it working but thinking about it the way I did made for a funny mental image.:smallbiggrin:

Thomas
2007-01-16, 01:09 PM
Your imagery is silly.

A rapier is the classical "finesse" weapon. The blows are carefully placed, to be sure - but fencing also includes some of the most "powerful" moves, like the lunge. You're using your strength, that's for sure - but you're using it cleverly (you don't just swing your sword as hard as you can; you move on your feet, you turn your hips, you extend yourself properly...).

The D&D concept of Weapon Finesse is pretty silly, anyway. It shouldn't even require a feat; most weapons should allow you to use either ability at will. But that's how the game works - it doesn't even pretend to model reality.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-01-16, 01:33 PM
I had a look at the Sword and Fist Prc Master of Chains. It's pretty funny when you look at it closely and I think it might almost be worth it.

Aximili
2007-01-16, 02:33 PM
with improved trip you don't have the chance to be tripped yourself i believe.


Yes you do, unfortunately. But when you add up all the bonus, it becomes pretty unlikely that you lose both the attempt and the resist.

ken-do-nim
2007-01-16, 03:11 PM
Weapon focus and specialization aren't really that important for a control build, and other feats work much better. Also, consider saving a feat by using a guisarme and armor spikes instead since in 95 percent of combats they will be just as useful as a spiked chain. Improved trip is also a must.

I did some more thinking on this. If you get enlarged and you use a guisarme, the guisarme has reach in the 15 and 20 foot squares. The armor spikes still only reach 5 feet. Therefore you don't have reach out to 10 feet. The spiked chain user can use the chain at 5, 10, 15, and 20 feet. That could hit a lot of folks (and not leave any holes)! Admittedly I'm not sure how often the 10 foot hole would be a problem.

Wolf53226
2007-01-16, 03:27 PM
And if you get Monkey Grip, you can use a REALLY large guisarme!


Although Monkey Grip SUCKS!!!!

TheOOB
2007-01-16, 03:36 PM
Spiked Chain is good, but hardly neccesary. On the one hand, it requires a feat to use effectivly, and is considered a rare weapon thus you are not likely to find many good magic ones lying around. On the other hand, you can strike any apponent within reach with the full force of your weapon, unlike with armor spikes which do less damage and usually have worse enchantments, the chain can trip and disarm, and it's good if your aiming for weapon supremacy, which is great but arguable not worth it.

Maclav
2007-01-16, 03:38 PM
I did some more thinking on this. If you get enlarged and you use a guisarme, the guisarme has reach in the 15 and 20 foot squares. The armor spikes still only reach 5 feet. Therefore you don't have reach out to 10 feet. The spiked chain user can use the chain at 5, 10, 15, and 20 feet. That could hit a lot of folks (and not leave any holes)! Admittedly I'm not sure how often the 10 foot hole would be a problem.

Being large would increase your spikes to 5-10 foot range, just as the would any non-reach weapon. The only downside to the spikes is that they are a second type of weapon, they are a light weapon and they are completely gay. :)

However, it is a rare day when you can't make your reach only weapon work... so its not that much of a downside. They work in a grapple too, which is nice.

Thomas
2007-01-16, 03:42 PM
I did some more thinking on this. If you get enlarged and you use a guisarme, the guisarme has reach in the 15 and 20 foot squares. The armor spikes still only reach 5 feet.

Really? How's that? When Enlarged, your Reach is 10 ft., yes? How do the armor spikes lower that?

Yakk
2007-01-16, 03:56 PM
Varient:

Weapons fall into 3 categories.
Finessable: Can use Dex or 1/2 Str+1/2 Dex to hit.
Normal: Can use Str, or 1/2 Dex+1/2 Str, to hit.
Brute: Cannot use Dex to hit.

Weapon Finness Feat: (requires +1 BaB)
Add 1/2 your DexBonus to your StrBonus to damage to-hit on a Finessable weapon.
The total of 1/2 DexBonus+StrBonus cannot pass your DexBonus bonus.
The 1/2 DexBonus component is considered precision damage.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-01-16, 10:49 PM
An alternate and improved version:

Fig2/PsiWar4/Pyro4/Slayer10

Feats:

1) EWP: Spiked Chain
1B) Combat Expertise
2B) Improved Trip
3) Improved Disarm
3B) Combat Reflexes
3P) Expansion
4B) Karmic Strike
6) Power Attack
6B) Improved Bull Rush
9) Shock Trooper

Advantages:

This character is pure cheeze. It combines both the infamous Spiked Chain Cheeze and the Shock Trooper Cheeze.

Tactics:

Anyone who walks within 10' of you is on the ground and likely dead. Anyone who successfully hits you is on the ground and likely dead. Anyone who provokes an AoO within 15' of you is on the ground and likely dead.

Improved Trip can be used in place of a regular attack for an AoO. If successfull (which it darn well should be with Improved Trip and a Spiked Chain, plus a size of up to Huge or even Gargantuan), you get a free attack. More on the obnoxious damage output in a moment, but suffice to say, damage numbers exceeding 100 is not an unreasonable expectation for this build.

Expansion is your friend. With a Manifester level 13, you can quicken manifest it if you get jumped, or expand yourself two sizes for even more obscene damage output. This gives you Large size (or better). You can even blow 13pp and do both at the same time.

Spiked Chain with a 15' threat range. With Str*1.5 to damage, and another 2*BAB to damage (if you reduce your AC by your BAB), and then +2d6 fire damage. Plus whatever you want to manifest on your weapon to make you nastier, and any enchantments (Concussive is good, for a +2 bonus it deals a flat +5 to weapon damage). All this damage can be dished out to every one who walks within 10' of you, or anyone who successfully lands a blow on you, or anyone you hit on your turn.

So we're looking at... 2d6 (assuming Large, if you have Huge thanks to Expansion, it's now 3d6, and if you manage to start out with something that has Powerful Build or Large size already, it can get up to 4d6) + Str*1.5+BAB*2+2d6 fire. So if we can swing a Str of 22 (through magic items and progression), with a mod of +6, and BAB of +18, you're looking at 9+36 or 45 damage there, for (2d6 to 4d6) + 45 +2d6 Fire + whatever enchantments and manifestations you stack on top. This, being dished out to everyone you want to hit within 10' of you, or anyone who hits you, or anyone who you choose to attack durning your turn.

Immunity to mental effects thanks to Slayer PrC. This is one tank you can't just Hold Person and nuke the party.

If you get Body Adjustment, you can heal yourself, making the cleric's job easier. If you get Body Equilibrium, you get DR/-, making yourself even nastier since your build is designed around being hit.

Unlike your build, this one can do things like Psychic Crush (Will save or reduced to -1 hps), Mindwipe (Fort save or negative levels), Dimension Door (which he can manifest as a move action), and more fun toys due to his manifestation. Most of these are either save or suck, save or die, or self-buff. It doesn't need to manifest any ranged energy attacks, it gets a 4d6 fire bolt for free as a psi-like ability.

By 10th level, this build already has all the main toys... having Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Shock Trooper, EWP: Spiked Chain, Improved Trip, and Expansion. The rest is just icing on the cake.

Catharsis
2007-01-17, 04:21 AM
Spiked Chain with a 15' threat range.
A Medium spiked chain has a 10' range, a Large one 20'.

Jack Mann
2007-01-17, 04:31 AM
Actually, no. A large chararacter with a spiked chain threatens 20', while a medium character wielding the same spiked chain only threatens 10'. Why this is, I don't know.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-17, 04:35 AM
Why would you take Improved Disarm? If you trip someone, you get +4 on your attack rolls and they get -4 on theirs--that's an effective +8 to disarm them!

MrNexx
2007-01-17, 09:01 AM
Why would you take Improved Disarm? If you trip someone, you get +4 on your attack rolls and they get -4 on theirs--that's an effective +8 to disarm them!

Insult + injury.

Thomas
2007-01-17, 09:49 AM
It's still the exact same bonus; another +20% to the chance of disarming the opponent. That's a total +60%, so you can reliably disarm Large, strong, or skilled opponents once you've tripped them.

Yakk
2007-01-17, 09:52 AM
Whirlwind has interesting text. AFAICT, you don't get bonuses from other feats on your Whirlwind attack -- ie, you can't do an improved trip whirlwind...

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-01-17, 10:16 AM
Bonus refers to bonus attacks and not to special bonuses or attack bonuses.



WHIRLWIND ATTACK [GENERAL]

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +4.

Benefit: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.

When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

Special: A fighter may select Whirlwind Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Jack Mann
2007-01-17, 11:08 AM
The problem with whirlwind is that if you're facing a large group of enemies, such that you would want to use the feat, one of two things is likely true. One, the enemies are weak enough that they're not going to be able to do much to you, so you might as well just take a few rounds longer mopping them up, or two, they're powerful enough that you should be running away.

Person_Man
2007-01-17, 12:22 PM
Meh. You have way too many feats that grant pretty minor bonuses. I mean Weapon Focus? Seriously?

Every feat in a Trip build should provide extra damage that scales with your levels, or give you another attack somehow. Don't waste feats on minor bonuses.

To demonstrate:

Flaming Homer, the Bowling Ball of Doom


Goliath

Overwelming Attack Monk (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#monk) 2/Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 2/Pyrokineticist 1/Warmind 5/Full BAB class X

Bonus Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Knock-Down.

Feats from levels: Cleave, Knockback, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Hold the Line.

Other Feats for Consideration: Overchannel (Always useful), Mage Slayer, Battle Jump, Robilar's Gambit.

Books: SRD, Complete Warrior, Races of Stone (Knockback), Unapproachable East (Battle Jump), PHBII (Robilar's Gambit).


Before combat, use the Expansion power on yourself to increase your reach.

Charge 10 feet into your enemy. Make a touch attack with your fire lash as a two-handed weapon (as it explicitly says you can in the FAQ). Transfer your full BAB to Leap Attack. Make sure that your initial enemy is close to you when you attack him if possible, as you want to keep your enemies in your threatened area each time you knock him back.

If you hit (you probably will) and deal more then 10 or more points of damage (you will) you get a free Trip attempt (from Knock-Down).

If your enemy is standing next to anyone, each attack also applies to them (Warmind Sweeping Strike). You will also get a free Trip attempt against him and a follow up attack (Improved Trip), which will also apply to someone standing next to him, until pretty much everyone in your threatened area has been hit multiple times and is prone.

Regardless of whether or not the Trip attempts succeed, you get a free Bull Rush attempt (Knockback, which requires that you be a Goliath) on each attack, applying your damage and Power Attack bonus to the opposed Str check.

This should allow you to push your enemy several spaces backwards. For each space you move your enemy backwards, you may also shift him one hex to the left or the right (Shock Trooper). If this pushes your enemy into the same hex as another enemy, you get a free Trip Attempt on each of them (Shock Trooper again - though if one of the enemies is already Prone from a successful Trip, you can't Trip him again).

Again, each successful Trip gets a free follow up attack, and each successful melee attack gets a free Bull Rush, which can start another Trip. And every melee attack can also apply to someone standing next to your enemy using Sweeping Strike.

Plus, if you kill someone (you will) you get a Cleave attack, which will also apply to whoever is standing next to them, and start the Attack+Trip+Attack+Bull Rush+Trip+Attack... combo, again.

If you're feeling really saucy, use Psionic Lion's Charge for a full attack.

If someone charges you (they pretty much have to in order reach you) you get a free AoO from Hold the Line, resolved immediately before the charge attack).

If you don't like Goliath, you can drop the Bull Rush/Knockback combo and it'll still be a very strong Attack+Trip+Attack build. An Orc with the Headlong Rush feat (Races of Faerun) also works well.

You can even drop Pyro and just rely on Shock Trooper to hit, though doing so will lower your AC a lot. If you are Pyro, be sure to carry around a good magical reach weapon with the trip ability (Guisarme works fine) for when you come across enemies who are immune to fire. You should also buy a few magic items that are effective against flying enemies.

ken-do-nim
2007-01-17, 01:20 PM
Meh. You have way too many feats that grant pretty minor bonuses. I mean Weapon Focus? Seriously?

Every feat in a Trip build should provide extra damage that scales with your levels, or give you another attack somehow. Don't waste feats on minor bonuses.


To be clear, as the OP I don't consider what I first posted to be a trip build, just a build that happens to have improved trip in there. Okay, okay, I didn't realize you couldn't do a whirlwind improved trip combo. That's too bad, because I love the imagery.

The poster who added the second spiked chain feat path didn't have weapon focus.

I'm not a melee-build power-gamer, so I'll fully accept that the build you put in your spoiler is superior in every way, I was just trying to have fun with whirlwind attack. That being said, I think weapon focus is a good feat. Unless you have tricks that give you touch attacks (which your build did), you need every point to hit some of the tougher foes in the game, esp. your lower attacks. Shock trooper/leap attack/powerful charge/etc. are all great feats, but how many charges do you get per fight? Usually one. Weapon focus adds to every single die roll. You might easily use it 20 times in one fight. But I'm just using logic and not experience; I haven't actually played a shock trooper/leap attacker yet.

Person_Man
2007-01-17, 02:35 PM
I'm not a melee-build power-gamer, so I'll fully accept that the build you put in your spoiler is superior in every way, I was just trying to have fun with whirlwind attack. That being said, I think weapon focus is a good feat. Unless you have tricks that give you touch attacks (which your build did), you need every point to hit some of the tougher foes in the game, esp. your lower attacks. Shock trooper/leap attack/powerful charge/etc. are all great feats, but how many charges do you get per fight? Usually one. Weapon focus adds to every single die roll. You might easily use it 20 times in one fight. But I'm just using logic and not experience; I haven't actually played a shock trooper/leap attacker yet.

Well, let's put my cheese build aside. I realize most players aren't going to power build to that extent, and as a DM I generally don't encourage it.

Having said that, melee builds of any type are at a distinct disadvantage compared to full casters once you reach mid levels. So even a non-optimized strait Sorcerer played by an intelligent player tends to far outshine most Fighters, Barbarians, Paladins, etc., unless they are careful about their feat selection. You need not power game. But throwing away your feats on things like Skill Focus or Weapon Focus is just silly.

So when it comes to melee feats, it's my suggestion that you should pick feats that improve as you gain levels, because spells scale with levels, and if your feats don't scale, you'll be left behind really quickly.

Weapon Focus is +1 to hit. That's it. Forever.

I know plenty of players who are emotionally attached to it or some similar feat because its in the PHB and/or because they used with one of their first PC's, and they swear, swear that Stabby McKillkill the evil enemy wouldn't have been defeated if they didn't have that +1 on some crucial die roll. This overlooks the fact that they probably could have killed Stabby and his minions faster if they had a better feat in the first place.

Or there's the argument that because its applied to every attack roll with their primary weapon, its somehow more valuable then gaining an extra attack or piles of extra damage under certain circumstances. Well guess what - that +1 to hit is wasted every time you roll to hit an enemy and don't miss him by exactly 1 (5% of your attack rolls, assuming the enemy’s AC isn’t so high that you need a natural 20, in which case it’s 0% of your attack rolls). Every time you hit or miss your enemy by more then 1 point, Weapon Focus is entirely irrelevant. So many of the “circumstantial” feats (that depend on the quite common events of charging, having a foe charge you, getting an attack of opportunity, etc) are used a lot more often then Weapon Focus, and to much greater effect.

So I think the evidence is clear - whatever your build goal is, you can accomplish it better using a feat other then Weapon Focus (or something similar).

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-01-17, 02:46 PM
To be clear, as the OP I don't consider what I first posted to be a trip build, just a build that happens to have improved trip in there. Okay, okay, I didn't realize you couldn't do a whirlwind improved trip combo. That's too bad, because I love the imagery.


Improved Trip and Whirlwind Attack can be combined as was implied by my previous post.

MrNexx
2007-01-17, 03:06 PM
Improved Trip and Whirlwind Attack can be combined as was implied by my previous post.

I'm afraid I miss the implication in "forfeit", LS.

However, how would people regard "Knockdown" in this situation? It's not a bonus attack, but a free trip attempt.

Aximili
2007-01-17, 03:32 PM
An alternate and improved version:

Fig2/PsiWar4/Pyro4/Slayer10

What is this slayer?

to Person_Man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=15131),
Why 2 levels of Psywar? Is expansion really worth it if it only lasts for 2 rounds?

Person_Man
2007-01-17, 03:33 PM
I'm afraid I miss the implication in "forfeit", LS.

However, how would people regard "Knockdown" in this situation? It's not a bonus attack, but a free trip attempt.

I think the text of Whirlwind is very clear, "you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities." A Trip attack is a form of attack. It's listed under "Special Attacks" in the PHB and SRD, and the text of its description even says "Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks. If your attack succeeds..."

So, Trip attacks are still an attack, even though its not a standard melee attack. Whirlwind clearly makes you forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats. So, if you Whirlwind attack, you don't get to follow it up with anything else.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-01-17, 03:35 PM
I'm afraid I miss the implication in "forfeit", LS.

I was strictly talking about the bonus to trip attempts, not the extra attack :smalltongue:

I should have been more clear, but I thought that part of it was obvious. I apologize.



However, how would people regard "Knockdown" in this situation? It's not a bonus attack, but a free trip attempt.


You are right it is not a bonus attack, it is more like a side effect of dealing more than 10 points of damage, much like the special ability Wolves have.
Thus its effects should still apply.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-01-17, 03:53 PM
I think the text of Whirlwind is very clear, "you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities." A Trip attack is a form of attack. It's listed under "Special Attacks" in the PHB and SRD, and the text of its description even says "Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks. If your attack succeeds..."

So, Trip attacks are still an attack, even though its not a standard melee attack. Whirlwind clearly makes you forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats. So, if you Whirlwind attack, you don't get to follow it up with anything else.

You are completely right, but with a free trip attempts (like that of wolf) you do not need to make the melee touch attack, which means you are not making any additional attacks.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-01-17, 04:01 PM
What is this slayer?

Prestige Class in the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Basically, you get a full BAB, 9/10 (1st level off) Power progression, proficiencies, and all the added coolness of being called a Slayer. It may be listed as Illithid Slayer in the XPsiH. Good class, one of the better Psionic PrC's.

Amiria
2007-01-17, 04:03 PM
What is this slayer?

This is the Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm). A fighter who specializes in battling a certain kind of iconic non-OGL D&D monster.

Edit: Simu-Ninja ! :smallyuk: Bah, I have provided a link ! :smalltongue:

Matthew
2007-01-17, 04:24 PM
Bah! Weapon Focus is great!

ken-do-nim
2007-01-17, 04:27 PM
You are completely right, but with a free trip attempts (like that of wolf) you do not need to make the melee touch attack, which means you are not making any additional attacks.

Um, so I'm right (and disappointed) that if you whirlwind attack using a trip, you can't follow up with an attack on everybody using improved trip? That's ... a bummer.

ken-do-nim
2007-01-17, 04:30 PM
I know plenty of players who are emotionally attached to it or some similar feat because its in the PHB and/or because they used with one of their first PC's, and they swear, swear that Stabby McKillkill the evil enemy wouldn't have been defeated if they didn't have that +1 on some crucial die roll. This overlooks the fact that they probably could have killed Stabby and his minions faster if they had a better feat in the first place.

That's me! How'd you know? Gosh, my monk has great fortitude and it made the difference between life & death against that finger of death spell once...

Well, it is a game, so what's wrong with a little emotional attachment?




Or there's the argument that because its applied to every attack roll with their primary weapon, its somehow more valuable then gaining an extra attack or piles of extra damage under certain circumstances. Well guess what - that +1 to hit is wasted every time you roll to hit an enemy and don't miss him by exactly 1 (5% of your attack rolls, assuming the enemy’s AC isn’t so high that you need a natural 20, in which case it’s 0% of your attack rolls). Every time you hit or miss your enemy by more then 1 point, Weapon Focus is entirely irrelevant. So many of the “circumstantial” feats (that depend on the quite common events of charging, having a foe charge you, getting an attack of opportunity, etc) are used a lot more often then Weapon Focus, and to much greater effect.

So I think the evidence is clear - whatever your build goal is, you can accomplish it better using a feat other then Weapon Focus (or something similar).

That +1 to hit isn't wasted. You can feel more confident to take that extra +1 off your to hit and use it for power attack or combat expertise when you need to. I've been pretty successful so far with that strategy (run the attack bonus up as high as I can so that I can improve my damage or ac as necessary). Heh, maybe I'd get slaughtered in your campaign :-)

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-01-17, 04:31 PM
Um, so I'm right (and disappointed) that if you whirlwind attack using a trip, you can't follow up with an attack on everybody using improved trip? That's ... a bummer.

Yes, you are. You do get +4 on any trip attempt though.....

ken-do-nim
2007-01-17, 04:37 PM
Or there's the argument that because its applied to every attack roll with their primary weapon, its somehow more valuable then gaining an extra attack or piles of extra damage under certain circumstances. Well guess what - that +1 to hit is wasted every time you roll to hit an enemy and don't miss him by exactly 1 (5% of your attack rolls, assuming the enemy’s AC isn’t so high that you need a natural 20, in which case it’s 0% of your attack rolls). Every time you hit or miss your enemy by more then 1 point, Weapon Focus is entirely irrelevant. So many of the “circumstantial” feats (that depend on the quite common events of charging, having a foe charge you, getting an attack of opportunity, etc) are used a lot more often then Weapon Focus, and to much greater effect.

So I think the evidence is clear - whatever your build goal is, you can accomplish it better using a feat other then Weapon Focus (or something similar).

By the way, I think your math is wrong in some cases. If you would need a 20 to hit something, but because of an extra +1 (from say weapon focus) that would become a 19, then you didn't improve your chance by 5%, you doubled it. If you need a 19 or a 20 without that +1, then with it you need an 18, 19, 20, so you improved your chance of success by 33%. This most often is important with the second and third attacks.

Edit: I figured out what I'm trying to say. Weapon focus does kinda scale in level, because it applies to your second, third, and fourth attacks as you get them, which need it more than your main one.

Indon
2007-01-17, 04:40 PM
I am intrigued by this innovative use of feats and weapon, and see a great deal of potential for it in a military-ish campaign.

I'd use Cleave rather than Combat Reflexes for the build, however, as it'd make for more reliable dispatching of legions of hostiles and Whirlwind attack requires you to take a full attack action in any case.

Aximili
2007-01-17, 04:54 PM
By the way, I think your math is wrong in some cases. If you would need a 20 to hit something, but because of an extra +1 (from say weapon focus) that would become a 19, then you didn't improve your chance by 5%, you doubled it. If you need a 19 or a 20 without that +1, then with it you need an 18, 19, 20, so you improved your chance of success by 33%. This most often is important with the second and third attacks.


Actually, the second one would be 50%

Person_Man
2007-01-17, 05:32 PM
to Person_Man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=15131),
Why 2 levels of Psywar? Is expansion really worth it if it only lasts for 2 rounds?

War Minds can also manifest powers from the Psychic Warrior list.

Taking two levels of Psychic Warrior gives you 2 additional powers, 1 extra power point, and two bonus feats.

Your Manifester level will still be limited to your War Mind level (though I've seen people on the boards argue that since they're both Psychic Warrior powers, their manifester levels should stack. I've never seen a definitive answer on that from WotC, but in my games I've ruled that they don't).

But the bonus feats and powers generally make it a better deal then two levels of any other class, and it has good synergy with Monk. If you were playing a higher level campaign, you could go Fighter X/Pyro 1/Warmind Y and get the same effect with higher BAB, and thus better damage. But Homer is a very feat hungry build (MMmmmm... feats....), so I try and get as many as possible at low levels in order to make him more playable.

ken-do-nim
2007-01-17, 06:58 PM
Actually, the second one would be 50%

I wish that sort of math came easier to me. Thanks for the correction.

SpiderBrigade
2007-01-17, 07:09 PM
By the way, I think your math is wrong in some cases. If you would need a 20 to hit something, but because of an extra +1 (from say weapon focus) that would become a 19, then you didn't improve your chance by 5%, you doubled it.
Err...except sometimes it's possible to improve your chance by 5%, and double it, at the same time. In your example, if you need a 20 to hit, your chances are exactly 5%. If you (due to weapon focus) need a 19 or a 20, your chances are now 10%. Yes, you're now "twice as likely" to hit, but your chances are still only 1 in 10.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-17, 07:11 PM
Er, Ken--if you have a 5% chance to hit, and you double it, that becomes a 5*2 = 10% chance to hit. Now, how much did that increase your chance to hit by, percentage-wise...?

Shisumo
2007-01-17, 07:21 PM
[verbiage pedantry]That's an increase of 5%, not an increase by 5%. The percentage increases by 50%.[/verbiage pedantry]

Aximili
2007-01-17, 07:22 PM
In the end, everybody was right.

ken-do-nim
2007-01-17, 07:36 PM
Er, Ken--if you have a 5% chance to hit, and you double it, that becomes a 5*2 = 10% chance to hit. Now, how much did that increase your chance to hit by, percentage-wise...?

I'm going to quit while I'm ahead/behind/lost in percentage double-speak.

Anyway, since I'm a big combat expertise improve-thy-ac-so-you-don't-need-to-bug-the-cleric-about-healing proponent, I'm going to stick with the argument that any feat that raises your attack bonus should be construed as helping your ac, and thus I'm a fan of weapon focus.

Matthew
2007-01-17, 07:45 PM
I think he meant it was a bigger proportional increase to get a +1 when he need a 20, as opposed to a +1 when he needed a 19+.

Arbitrarity
2007-01-17, 11:05 PM
5% chance to hit, vs 10% chance to hit... double the chance to hit.

5%+5%=10%

And anyway, extra attack != extra AC, even with the improved combat expertise, it's still BAB based.

Person_Man
2007-01-17, 11:28 PM
On math and Weapon Focus:

For simplicity, let's say that your BAB is 0, your Str is 10, and you have no additional modifiers To-Hit.

Bob the Enemy has an AC of 10. You attack Bob. If you roll 9 or lower, you miss. If you roll 10 or higher, you hit.

Now let's say that you took Weapon Focus as a feat. Now if you roll 8 or lower you miss. And if you roll 9 or higher, you hit. Whenever you roll 8 or lower, having Weapon Focus is entirely meaningless, because you miss. Whenever you roll 10 or higher, having Weapon Focus is entirely meaningless, because you would have hit anyway. Given that the chance of rolling any particular number on a d20 is 5%, the probability that Weapon Focus will be useful on any specific attack is therefore 5%.

Regardless of what your To-Hit modifier is, the probability that you will roll the number on your D20 where Weapon Focus will decide whether or not you hit your enemy on any particular attack is exactly 5%, each individual time. So if you attack exactly 20 times in an encounter, statistically Weapon Focus will decide whether or not you hit your enemy once.

Given that knowledge, I hope that it’s clear to people that many other feats, including many core feats, are statistically superior to Weapon Focus.


The exception to this rule:

Joe the Enemy has an AC of 21. You're the same and you still took Weapon Focus, so your total To-Hit modifier is still +1. In order to hit Joe, you must roll a natural 20. But because a natural 20 always hits, Weapon Focus is entirely useless no matter how many times you attack Joe, as it is against any opponent that has an AC = 20 + Your Total To-Hit Modifier.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-01-18, 02:07 AM
Regardless of what your To-Hit modifier is, the probability that you will roll the number on your D20 where Weapon Focus will decide whether or not you hit your enemy on any particular attack is exactly 5%, each individual time. So if you attack exactly 20 times in an encounter, statistically Weapon Focus will decide whether or not you hit your enemy once.

Given that knowledge, I hope that it’s clear to people that many other feats, including many core feats, are statistically superior to Weapon Focus.


The exception to this rule:

Joe the Enemy has an AC of 21. You're the same and you still took Weapon Focus, so your total To-Hit modifier is still +1. In order to hit Joe, you must roll a natural 20. But because a natural 20 always hits, Weapon Focus is entirely useless no matter how many times you attack Joe, as it is against any opponent that has an AC = 20 + Your Total To-Hit Modifier.

You forgot to add in the scenario wherein the total to hit is already 19+ higher than your opponent's AC (True Strike?), in which case the feat is also worthless, as a natural 1 always misses.

Matthew
2007-01-18, 06:17 AM
OnGiven that knowledge, I hope that it’s clear to people that many other feats, including many core feats, are statistically superior to Weapon Focus.

Don't forget that it is also a prerequisite for many other better Feats.

SpiderBrigade
2007-01-18, 06:51 AM
Well, I'm not going to argue that there aren't better feats to take than Weapon Focus, but I think that saying "it's useless 95% of the time" is a little misleading. In the given example, you do now hit 11 times out of 20 instead of only 10/20. Thats a very minor boost, but it is a boost.

Using the same example, (you have 0 attack bonus, Bob has AC 10) what if Bob increases his AC by one? You could use the same logic to say that this is not a good investment, since it only matters 5% of the time (when you roll exactly 10). In one fight, sure, that's a tiny difference. But given the number of attacks made in D&D, I wouldn't scoff at getting hit less. Granted, though, that avoiding hits and hitting your enemies are not 1:1 equivalent in D&D. Like I said, I won't contest that Weapon Focus isn't the most optimal feat. But I don't think it's a complete waste of ink, either.

Catharsis
2007-01-18, 06:55 AM
I don't know why everyone considers a +1 to hit so useless, but then goes investing a large part of his funds into increasing the enhancement bonus of his weapon or armor by one... do you consider the investment wasted in every roll where that one point of bonus wasn't pivotal?

I'll agree, however, that the feat's benefit pales at high levels. Something like "Extra Rage" will always have a much greater effect over the course of a day than Weapon Focus.

I admit I did take Weapon Focus for my current Ftr 4/Brb 1, though. There's nothing more frustrating for a fighter than to wait for your turn, then miss, wait again, miss... everything that helps looks worthwhile. I'll take Extra Rage on the next opportunity, of course.

Matthew
2007-01-18, 06:58 AM
Weapon Focus is almost always worth it at Level One. It looks like a wasted Feat later on, unless you used it as a prerequisite for better Feats.

Saph
2007-01-18, 10:10 AM
I agree that Weapon Focus isn't the most exciting or powerful of feats, but it's one of the only feats that's just about always useful. You can go a full session of D&D without ever using a particular saving throw, or a particular combat feat, or a particular spell, but if you're a fighter type, the one thing that you're pretty much always going to do is attack - and lots of times. Quite often feats like Improved Trip or Cleave or Expertise just never get used, either because the right situation doesn't come up or because the player just forgets. It's not easy to remember all your feats and tactics in the middle of a fight. Weapon Focus will always be used.

The big problem with it isn't the 5% thing, it's what happens when nice weapons of a different type start turning up in treasure hauls.

- Saph

Yakk
2007-01-18, 10:13 AM
Going from 11/20 swings hit to 10/20 swings hit is a boost in your damage-per-swing of 10%.

Going from 3/20 swings hit to 4/20 swings hit is a boost in your damage-per-swing of 33%.

Going from 15/20 swings hit to 16/20 swings hit is a boost in your damage-per-swing of 6.7%.

If your chance to hit was randomly distributed from 1 to 20, a first estimate of your average increased damage per swing from a +1 to hit would be 18%.

So, on a character that can do 100 damage per round, +1 to hit generates an average of 18 damage, assuming uniformly distributed [1 to 20] to-hit target numbers.

Matthew
2007-01-18, 10:15 AM
That's where the Variant Weapon Group Rules have an advantage.

As a prerequisite for Melee Weapon Mastery at Fighter 8, Weapon Focus is pretty much indispensible. By Fighter 9 a Character should be getting +4/+4 with his chosen weapon(s) and +2/+2 with associated weaponry. He is still probably going to suck compared to Spell Casters or Tome of Battle types, but there is not really much you can do about that.

[Edit]Yup, Yakk has it right. A +1 Attack Bonus also increases Average Damage.

pestilenceawaits
2007-01-18, 10:19 AM
I just have to chime in on weapon focus also. It may not make much of a difference at higher levels but it is a prerequisite feat for so many other feats and prestige classes that you would never get to them without it.

MrNexx
2007-01-18, 10:44 AM
I had a variant of Weapon Focus which increased the BAB when using said weapon, instead of simply giving a flat +1. Another option, for making it more attractive, might be to make it a +1 (non-BAB) every four levels. It would allows a non-Warriorsto keep up with the Warriors with a given weapon, but the Warriors have the advantage of Full BAB attack rates AND the Weapon focus bonus.

And either option isn't terribly unbalanced.

Matthew
2007-01-18, 10:47 AM
Hey, if we're talking House Rules I advocate my Weapon Mastery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31267) variant / fix.

silvermesh
2007-01-18, 12:57 PM
anything that ups your base to hit as a fighter type is good. they don't "scale to level" but they don't have to because they stack, for the most part. if you don't need the 5% to hit, you can use it for 2 more points of damage with your power attacked greatsword. You can tout your "special circumstance" fighter all you want, who has his abilities and "scaling bonuses", but the fighter who has been stacking his entire build towards hitting better and harder is going to outclass you in a toe to toe with anything worth meleeing at your level. IMO, the fancy fighter who throws out focus and specialization is the reason people think melees are underpowered.

icedrake
2007-01-18, 01:18 PM
If you've got a lot of extra feats and need the extra damage, get weapon focus. Personally, I think there are much better feats you could get for yourself than a paltry +1 bonus to hit with one weapon. If you were to dip into warblade for manuevers, stances and the weapon adaption ability, well then its even better. You can change all your weapon focus and specialization feats to a different weapon so you never have to worry about a greatsword falling into your lap if you're a longsword user.

If you want more battlefield control, consider the crusader and warblade from Book of 9 Swords.