Portable Hole abuse

[Eaglejarl]

Hi all,

I had a similar thread elsewhere, but I wanted to widen the scope a bit.

I'm curious as to how many different kinds of cheese we can find that involve Portable Holes (PHs).

Here are the rules of the game, please read them and follow them:

1) Physics is the default option. Real world physics works and will take effect unless rule 2 applies.

2) The RAW laid out on d20srd.org trumps physics. If there is an *explicit* rule somewhere on that site, then things work according to that rule. If there is no *explicit* rule, then it works by physics. No interpretation, no common sense, no RAI allowed. And we are using a very strict construction of RAW at that.

3) An extradimensional space (ED) is the same as a nondimensional space which is the same as a pocket universe. Because it's a universe, it is indestructible and not affected by anything inside it unless there are rules that explicitly say otherwise. In particular: no matter how much stuff you put in it, you can't rupture the walls of a universe. You also can't burn them or freeze them. It is a complete universe, so (when the ED is sealed) there is nowhere for energy to go and it just builds up. The only exception to this is a Bag of Holding, which Raw explicitly states will interact badly with a Portable Hole.

4) The cloth which you unfold to get access to a PH is **not** part of the PH. It is not even the opening to it. It is a magic item which **creates** an opening to the pocket universe, it is not itself the opening. As such, nothing that happens inside the PH will damage the piece of woven-from-phase-spider-silk cloth that you have folded up in your pocket.

5) Per the canonical definition of a PH (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#portableHole) a PH can be opened on any surface. That means walls, ceilings, floors, a sheet that two characters are holding stretched between them, whatever.

6) Unlike Enlarge, Shrink Item does not explicitly say that the object will stop expanding if its container is too small. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shrinkItem.htm) Therefore, when the command word is spoken the object regains its full size and mass instantly, growing with effectively infinite force.


Ok, so, a few thoughts:

*) If you throw a lot of Continual Flame objects in the PH and close it, they continue producing energy and the energy has nowhere to go. If you leave them in there for a month or so and then open the PH, what happens? (Thanks to Drachasor in the other thread for suggesting this.)

*) Open a PH on a wall. Attach a ring gate to the wall of the PH, with the "entrance" side blocked by the wall. (Use several carefully placed Walls of Force or other indestructible means to hold it in place.) Block the mouth of the PH with another Wall of Force. (Assume you can get the placement good enough to effect a perfect seal.) You now have a one-way valve into the PH. What can you do with it?

A couple of thoughts I have:

Put the other ring gate near a really hot fire so as to pump heat into the PH. What happens when the inside is a few million degrees and you drop the Wall of Force you're using as a lid?
Alternatively, keep tossing in Shrunk Item Alchemical Fire; expand it to get super high pressure, then add heat to set it ablaze. What happens now? (Note that ring gates will pass sound, so you can speak a command word on the outside and have it activate something on the inside.)
Shrunk water; when you expand it you get (at the very least) a super high pressure cutting blast. (Thanks to molten_dragon in the other thread for suggesting this.)


What else? Remember, the point of the game is to find cheese. If there is an explicit reason it can't work, good enough. But if it can be made to work by a tight enough reading of the rules, then color yourself victorious.

[Zubrowka74]

Yeah, first thought that came to mind is messing with the pressure. Just use it as a gas tank.


Fill it with helium or whatnot.

Place an active decanter of endless water in it.

Fill it with air. When submerged in a closed room, open up the PH un the floor. Air goes out, water goes in.

[Dalebert]

*) Open a PH on a wall. Attach a ring gate to the wall of the PH, with the "entrance" side blocked by the wall. (Use several carefully placed Walls of Force or other indestructible means to hold it in place.) Block the mouth of the PH with another Wall of Force. (Assume you can get the placement good enough to effect a perfect seal.) You now have a one-way valve into the PH. What can you do with it?

I'm not following how you're making it into a one-way valve. Ring gates are two-way. Exactly as they're described, things can travel in either direction so if you can push something through one and out the other gate, any kind of action or pressure can push it back through. It even describes how you can reach through and stab someone; then withdraw your hand. If you place it such that the opening is blocked by the wall of the PH, then when you try to shove something through, it's going to hit the wall. If you're saying that energy and air and water can seep around the edges (the PH wall is curved rather than flat, after all), then they can just as easily seep back through when pressure builds up.

Also it's moot--they wouldn't function because the two gates are not on the same plane of existence.

I'm not trying to be a party pooper. Just to prove it, I'm willing to throw in some cheese:

How about an enveloping pit that you have activated the relic ability on? You cast several delayed fireballs into it and then shut it before they go off. Now you have an enveloping pit with lots of fire and heat trapped inside for when you open it with a command word, probably right underneath someone or aimed at where you want all that trapped explosion to go.

I'm not sure how that would work with limited air though. Is there RAW that discusses fireballs in a confined space? Maybe the spell comes with all the oxygen it needs to burn though that would seem to make them work underwater and I think it might say somewhere that they don't. That's how they do underwater welding, after all. They bring the oxygen the torch needs. Right?

[Eaglejarl]

I'm not following how you're making it into a one-way valve. Ring gates are two-way.


Each ring has a “entry side” and an “exit side,” both marked with appropriate symbols.

I'm reading this to say that the general rule is that things cannot enter through the 'exit' side, and the ability to pull your arm back is a special case. This is supported by the fact that anything which doesn't pass all the way through (because it's inserted partway and then pulled back) doesn't count toward the daily weight limit.


Also it's moot--they wouldn't function because the two gates are not on the same plane of existence.

Technically, they are. A PH is a "extradimensional space" (or "nondimensional" -- both terms are used.) It's not a different plane. Also, if the PH is open at the time, just sealed off by a Wall of Force, then the space is definitely suitable for a ring gate.

As to sealing it against the wall...yeah, valid point. I think we can get around it though: the ring isn't that large, and the side of the PH can probably be considered locally flat enough for a good seal. Failing that, you can hold the ring in place and seal the gaps using several Walls of Force that overlap and reach all the way to the edges of the PH space. (Note that a WoF is "up to one 10-ft. square/level" so you can make it small enough to fit the space.) Failing that, use sovereign glue to bond the ring to the wall, filling in the gaps with glue.

[Dalebert]

Technically, they are. A PH is a "extradimensional space" (or "nondimensional" -- both terms are used.) It's not a different plane. Also, if the PH is open at the time, just sealed off by a Wall of Force, then the space is definitely suitable for a ring gate.

It's treated the same as per the wording of rope trick. Extra-dimensional spaces are "planes", or planes are a form of extra-dimensional space, for all practical purposes.


The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space that is outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”). Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes.


The side of a portable hole is nowhere close to flat. It's circular. However, it's not worth quibbling over because the bottom probably is flat so you could work from that. I'm pretty sure it's a 10' tall, 6' around cylinder.

I think you're right though about an entry and exit. That's kind of weird. Fortunately, they don't seem to be counting the mass of all the air that would be continually flowing through a set of ring gates all the time. :)

[Brookshw]

I really want to see a catgirls killed counter for this thread:smallbiggrin:

[Eaglejarl]

The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space that is outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”). Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes.

Hm. So all EDs are planes? Ok, I guess that's what it says. Edit: no wait, it doesn't. According to that an ED can be either a plane or not a plane -- since clearly, if the Rope Trick ED is outside the multiverse of planes, then it cannot itself be a plane. In general, I'm not sure that sentence is self-consistent and I am inclined to throw it out pending clarification from elsewhere in the rules.

Still, even if the PH ED is a plane, I think that only prevents the ring gate from working if the PH is sealed. If it's open, then the space on the other side is effectively part of our plane...I think? (Also, note that a RopeTrick only seals you away from *spells* -- magic item effects etc would work fine. Not relevant here, but interesting.)




I think you're right though about an entry and exit. That's kind of weird. Fortunately, they don't seem to be counting the mass of all the air that would be continually flowing through a set of ring gates all the time. :)

Yeah, that would render the ring gates pretty useless. :)

So, going back to the "continual light sources in a closed PH" idea...I think what would happen is that, if the light built up enough, when you opened it you would get something approximating a laser (well, really more like "sunlight focused through a magnifying glass"). Any thoughts on that?

[unseenmage]

Hm. So all EDs are planes? Ok, I guess that's what it says.

Still, I think that only prevents the ring gate from working if the PH is sealed. If it's open, then the space on the other side is effectively part of our plane...I think? (Also, note that a RopeTrick only seals you away from *spells* -- magic item effects etc would work fine. Not relevant here, but interesting.)




Yeah, that would render the ring gates pretty useless. :)

So, going back to the "continual light sources in a closed PH" idea...I think what would happen is that, if the light built up enough, when you opened it you would get something approximating a laser (well, really more like "sunlight focused through a magnifying glass"). Any thoughts on that?

Yes Extradimensional spaces are demiplanes. There is supporting language in the old Manual of the Planes that was ported into both the Planar Handbook and the 3.5 DMG. (Means they can be Plane Shifted into too but good luck finding the right tuning fork material component for that.)

The term "nondimensional" doesn't show up in any of those three sources either.

Planar Ring Gates work just like Ring Gates but are larger and function across planes. They're in the Planar Handbook. I use them to interconnect all of my extradimensional spaces with a sealed magically controlled vault.

One interesting feature of extradimensional spaces that requires DM adjudication is time and gravity traits. As there is no listing for either for the demiplane that is an extradimensional space they likely default to the Material Plane norms.

Time and Gravity continue inside the space even when it is closed so some of the energy storage ideas will only sort of work.

3 options for gravity:
a) the extradimensional space has its own private directional gravity just like any demiplane and objects within are immune to motion of the object itself. (Allows for abuse like placing it on ceilings and causing reverse gravity, or placing it on walls and Bull Rushing enemies into sideways gravity.)

b) it has it's own gravity and objects inside are subject to the motion of the object itself. (Allows for the abuse of shaking the Portable Hole to mix the contents. Very bad for living things obviously.)

c) it adopts the local gravity of where ever it's opened and retains that gravity when closed until opened again. (My go to solution to prevent extradimensional space abuse.)

I'm sure I've missed some details but that's all I can remember off the top of my head from the last thread that came up dealing with extradimensional spaces.

Edit: IIRC Bags of Holding also detail that if they are pierced from inside they're destroyed as well.
And many extradimensional spaces have 'as Bag of Holding' language in their descriptions which could mean they react similarly with Portable Holes.

Additionally, be aware that spells only do what they say they do. If Continual Flame says it generates heat and light it will emanate both but if it instead says it creates light within a certain radius it will only create that light, nothing more. (in fact the emanation is even suspect by harshest RAW if the spell only does what it says it does.)
This is why Fireball spells don't light things ion fire, because they don't say they do.

[Eaglejarl]

c) [A PH] adopts the local gravity of where ever it's opened and retains that gravity when closed until opened again. (My go to solution to prevent extradimensional space abuse.)


This would be my go-to as well.



Additionally, be aware that spells only do what they say they do. If Continual Flame says it generates heat and light it will emanate both but if it instead says it creates light within a certain radius it will only create that light, nothing more. (in fact the emanation is even suspect by harshest RAW if the spell only does what it says it does.)
This is why Fireball spells don't light things ion fire, because they don't say they do.

CF explicitly emits only light, not heat. That's why I'm not sure what would happen in this case.

On the other hand, here's one for you: up above, Zubrowka74 suggested throwing a Decanter of Endless Water in. Better yet: Shrink Item a lot of Decanters (under RAW this doesn't affect their rate of water emission), set them to "geyser" and toss them in. You are now putting an endless amount of water into a finite space. (Under RAW Decanters don't say anything about "only emit water if the outside pressure allows it.") What happens? If you wait long enough, I think the water starts to undergo fusion, which is what I was looking for in my other thread. I suspect it would take a long time, though.

[Kaveman26]

Have a stealth character sneak into a huge creatures innards and sneak attack them from the inside. Bonus points for acid resist and emerging like a chest burster.

[unseenmage]

On the other hand, here's one for you: up above, Zubrowka74 suggested throwing a Decanter of Endless Water in. Better yet: Shrink Item a lot of Decanters (under RAW this doesn't affect their rate of water emission), set them to "geyser" and toss them in. You are now putting an endless amount of water into a finite space. (Under RAW Decanters don't say anything about "only emit water if the outside pressure allows it.") What happens? If you wait long enough, I think the water starts to undergo fusion, which is what I was looking for in my other thread. I suspect it would take a long time, though.

Could mitigate that 'very long time' by heading on over to the fast time plane and setting all this up there before closing the extradimensional space. And really IIRC the Bag of Holding description specifically says stabbed or torn so heat and pressure could build there infinitely too.

The fast time thing only works if you're using the 'extradimensional spaces adopt and retain the time/gravity traits of where they were last opened' idea. But since RAW is silent on the matter it's as reasonable an interpretation as any so I say go for it.

[Dalebert]

options for gravity:
c) it adopts the local gravity of where ever it's opened and retains that gravity when closed until opened again. (My go to solution to prevent extradimensional space abuse.)


That's what I assumed too when I started thinking about it. I'm particularly fascinated with the enveloping pit. It's so deep that it's impractical to use for storage unless you mount it sideways so you can walk down it like a tunnel, putting treasure on either side.

So then I pictured putting creatures in it. You could let them fall in, then close it. Presumably they're gravity-stuck to the bottom of it while it's closed. Then you mount it on a vertical wall and it's sideways when you open it. Gravity is pulling toward the side now, so they start running toward the opening and you close it again. Then you mount it on the ground again and open. Boom! Back to the bottom. Ouch, ouch, ouch.



And really IIRC the Bag of Holding description specifically says stabbed or torn so heat and pressure could build there infinitely too.


"If the bag is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag ruptures and is ruined."

Wouldn't that count as overloading?

Also, I don't see any language in the bag of holding that specifies that the opening actually vanishes when you close the bag, unlike a portable hole. If something were trying to get out and you didn't want it to, I think this would be a bit like a grapple check. Pressure or heat might work the same way.

BTW, can someone please help me understand why an enveloping pit, which appears to be vastly superior in every way, has a market value of 3600 gp when a portable hole is listed at 20000gp?

[unseenmage]

That's what I assumed too when I started thinking about it. I'm particularly fascinated with the enveloping pit. It's so deep that it's impractical to use for storage unless you mount it sideways so you can walk down it like a tunnel, putting treasure on either side.

So then I pictured putting creatures in it. You could let them fall in, then close it. Presumably they're gravity-stuck to the bottom of it while it's closed. Then you mount it on a vertical wall and it's sideways when you open it. Gravity is pulling toward the side now, so they start running toward the opening and you close it again. Then you mount it on the ground again and open. Boom! Back to the bottom. Ouch, ouch, ouch.

You should check out the math for cramming Constructs into Portable Holes in my sig. The squeezing rules are your friend when transporting unliving armies. :smallsmile:



"If the bag is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag ruptures and is ruined."

Wouldn't that count as overloading?

Also, I don't see any language in the bag of holding that specifies that the opening actually vanishes when you close the bag, unlike a portable hole. If something were trying to get out and you didn't want it to, I think this would be a bit like a grapple check. Pressure or heat might work the same way.


Both very good points. To which I completely concede. Thanks for the clarification.



BTW, can someone please help me understand why an enveloping pit, which appears to be vastly superior in every way, has a market value of 3600 gp when a portable hole is listed at 20000gp?

Because it's a Relic that's supposed to be borderline artifact. Usable only by Lawful or Evil characters. However, even when reverse engineered the price for a non-alignment restricted E. Pit is quite low.
The MIC has a sentence or two about how they dropped the prices of certain items so that they would see actual play instead of being lofty unattainable dreams of wealth.

[Cruiser1]

(Means they can be Plane Shifted into too but good luck finding the right tuning fork material component for that.)
Miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm) doesn't require Focus components. Therefore an XP-free Miracle to duplicate the spell (Greater) Plane Shift will transport you to any plane, without needing the forked rod. It's a great way to attack pesky NPC casters hiding out on private demiplanes. :smalltongue:

You are now putting an endless amount of water into a finite space. (Under RAW Decanters don't say anything about "only emit water if the outside pressure allows it.")
Long before anything close to fusion happens, the pressure would be enough to start damaging the Decanter itself (whether Shrink Item'ed or not) quickly destroying it and turning it off. (However, you might be able to use one of the infinite CL tricks to put an infinite CL Hardening spell on the magic item so it has infinite hardness and doesn't take damage.)

[Dalebert]

Because it's a Relic that's supposed to be borderline artifact. Usable only by Lawful or Evil characters. However, even when reverse engineered the price for a non-alignment restricted E. Pit is quite low.
The MIC has a sentence or two about how they dropped the prices of certain items so that they would see actual play instead of being lofty unattainable dreams of wealth.

WELL I WANT ONE SO BAD!

The campaign I just started is set in an area with lots of kobolds and there are no alignments. However, it's also Pathfinder. :(

[Eaglejarl]

Miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm) doesn't require Focus components. Therefore an XP-free Miracle to duplicate the spell (Greater) Plane Shift will transport you to any plane, without needing the forked rod. It's a great way to attack pesky NPC casters hiding out on private demiplanes. :smalltongue:

Long before anything close to fusion happens, the pressure would be enough to start damaging the Decanter itself (whether Shrink Item'ed or not) quickly destroying it and turning it off. (However, you might be able to use one of the infinite CL tricks to put an infinite CL Hardening spell on the magic item so it has infinite hardness and doesn't take damage.)

Curse you, Cruiser1 for your crushing logic! (Heh, punned and I didn't even mean to.)

Yeah, good point. Dang, what does it take to get one tiny little plasma cannon into a fantasy world?! Yeesh, it's not like I'm asking for a major artifact here. ;)

Ok, how about this: set up the one-way ring gates that I mentioned above (using Planar RGs). Leave your Decanter on the outside, pressed up against the gate. The water goes in but can't come back out. Eventually the pressure inside is too high for more water to enter. So you have a mage Shrink Item the water on the other side of the gate, momentarily making space for the new water to enter. Repeat as needed. (You'll probably want an at-will item instead of a caster.)

[Drachasor]

CF explicitly emits only light, not heat. That's why I'm not sure what would happen in this case.

Light is still energy. All it says is no infrared. However, it really depends on what the boundary of the Portable Hole is like. Does it take in energy and release it somewhere, can energy not leave the portable hole, or what? The continual light thing probably would take a long time in any case.

Really what you'd probably do is make a Permanent Wall of Force to cover up the bottom of the hole. Within that you'd set up a system that constantly generated energy or something and got that energy transferred to the other side.

A decanter of endless water and a self-resetting Teleport: Other trap for instance. This is easiest to do with physical objects, so finding a way to do it with pure energy would be a bit harder.

Edit: Perhaps a self-reseting Fireball trap that constantly goes off, sending the fireball bead directly into a Teleport: Other trap which teleports the fireball onto the other side of the wall. The rules don't really provide for constant fireballs heating an area up obviously, but the theory is sound.

[unseenmage]

Miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm) doesn't require Focus components. Therefore an XP-free Miracle to duplicate the spell (Greater) Plane Shift will transport you to any plane, without needing the forked rod. It's a great way to attack pesky NPC casters hiding out on private demiplanes. :smalltongue:

That... i did not know that. Excellent! And thank you. :smallbiggrin:

[Vedhin]

Strictly speaking, attempting to fold a portable hole up should create a singularity. Is this the kind of physics we are ignoring? Or would you like to have white and black holes? Maybe play around with Reverse Gravity to create a naked singularity?

[Drachasor]

Strictly speaking, attempting to fold a portable hole up should create a singularity. Is this the kind of physics we are ignoring? Or would you like to have white and black holes? Maybe play around with Reverse Gravity to create a naked singularity?

Folding it up shuts off the extradimensional connection before you are even done folding.

Edit: This thread has reminded me that the Portable hole has always seemed really overpriced to me.

[Eaglejarl]

Ooh, I've got one.


Use the Ring Gate engine from here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12196958&postcount=20 to set a large metal bar falling infinitely inside a PH
Tie a cat to the bottom of the PH, on top of a constantly resetting magic trap that casts Endure Elements and Water Breathing (alternatively, use two traps)
Put a Ring of Sustenance on the cat so that it can sit there indefinitely
Tie a Decanter of Endless Water to the cat, putting it in geyser mode.
Close the hole and go read War and Peace a few times


The Decanter constantly pumps water into the Hole. The falling metal bar adds kinetic energy, heating the water. Eventually the water will boil and convert to steam, leaving room for more water.

Here's the thing...Endure Elements is clearly intended to work only between -50 and 140 degrees Fahrenheit but that's not what it says. What is says is "suffers no harm from being in a hot or cold environment". In other words, if you are under EE, you can sit on the Elemental Plane of Fire with no problem. You won't be *comfortable* (because it's hotter than 140F) but you won't actually die either.

So, the cat will sit there forever; it won't starve or die of thirst, it won't drown, and it won't burn. Thanks to the EE the Decanter is protected from the heat that is building up. So, what you get is a Portable Hole filled with steam, constantly getting denser and denser and hotter and hotter.

The best thing about this is that you can open it up, use it like a steam cannon, and then close it up and let it recharge.

(You might need to tape another cat to the metal bar and give it permanent Endure Elements in order to protect the bar from melting.)

[Vedhin]

Folding it up shuts off the extradimensional connection before you are even done folding.

Edit: This thread has reminded me that the Portable hole has always seemed really overpriced to me.

Well, the problem is that attempting to curve the hole in any direction requires an immense amount of energy. Such an immense amount, that bad things start happening with gravity.

If that doesn't work by your interpretation, put the portable hole on a Mobius strip. It is now, topologically speaking, a folded space. That does Very Bad Things to gravity. And things you put into it slide out into themselves at an angle

[Drachasor]

Well, the problem is that attempting to curve the hole in any direction requires an immense amount of energy. Such an immense amount, that bad things start happening with gravity.

If that doesn't work by your interpretation, put the portable hole on a Mobius strip. It is now, topologically speaking, a folded space. That does Very Bad Things to gravity. And things you put into it slide out into themselves at an angle

PH needs to be completely flat, if it isn't, then the connection to the space is lost until it is completely flat against a surface. It's quite explicit. So this sort of thing sadly doesn't work.

[Vedhin]

PH needs to be completely flat, if it isn't, then the connection to the space is lost until it is completely flat against a surface. It's quite explicit. So this sort of thing sadly doesn't work.

It never mentions being flat.

From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#portableHole):


A portable hole is a circle of cloth spun from the webs of a phase spider interwoven with strands of ether and beams of starlight. When opened fully, a portable hole is 6 feet in diameter, but it can be folded up to be as small as a pocket handkerchief. When spread upon any surface, it causes an extradimensional space 10 feet deep to come into being. This hole can be picked up from inside or out by simply taking hold of the edges of the cloth and folding it up. Either way, the entrance disappears, but anything inside the hole remains.

The only air in the hole is that which enters when the hole is opened. It contains enough air to supply one Medium creature or two Small creatures for 10 minutes. The cloth does not accumulate weight even if its hole is filled. Each portable hole opens on its own particular nondimensional space. If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole, a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in that place. Both the bag and the cloth are sucked into the void and forever lost. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, the portable hole and bag of holding being destroyed in the process.

[Eaglejarl]

(Offtopic: The mention of Reverse Gravity made me think of this.)

Are there any effects in D&D that cause gravity to orient sideways to the local norm, or at any angle other than up / down?

Wall of Force needs to be "vertical", but vertical is determined by local gravity. If you could cast it inside a sideways gravity field you could get a sideways WoF. Per the description, a WoF is an immovable, physically indestructible, transparent plane (gaze attacks work through it, so it must be transparent). In short, it makes an incredible blade trap if you can just get someone to walk into the edge of it -- anyone who does will be split in two instantly.

So, is there anything that points gravity sideways?

(I used the "WoF is a knife" effect in my story https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9669819/1/The-Two-Year-Emperor, which is why I have this on the brain. It would be so much cooler if it could be sideways, though.)

[unseenmage]

(Offtopic: The mention of Reverse Gravity made me think of this.)

Are there any effects in D&D that cause gravity to orient sideways to the local norm, or at any angle other than up / down?

Wall of Force needs to be "vertical", but vertical is determined by local gravity. If you could cast it inside a sideways gravity field you could get a sideways WoF. Per the description, a WoF is an immovable, physically indestructible, transparent plane (gaze attacks work through it, so it must be transparent). In short, it makes an incredible blade trap if you can just get someone to walk into the edge of it -- anyone who does will be split in two instantly.

So, is there anything that points gravity sideways?

Yeah, Reverse Gravity centered on a large but movable object ought to do it. Cast on "ceiling" and then rotate ceiling so it becomes a wall.

[Vedhin]

(Offtopic: The mention of Reverse Gravity made me think of this.)

Are there any effects in D&D that cause gravity to orient sideways to the local norm, or at any angle other than up / down?

Wall of Force needs to be "vertical", but vertical is determined by local gravity. If you could cast it inside a sideways gravity field you could get a sideways WoF. Per the description, a WoF is an immovable, physically indestructible, transparent plane (gaze attacks work through it, so it must be transparent). In short, it makes an incredible blade trap if you can just get someone to walk into the edge of it -- anyone who does will be split in two instantly.

So, is there anything that points gravity sideways?

By my interpretation, Ring Gates transmit gravity. It follows from them transmitting everything else, including spells.

Or you can position a WoF so it goes through the Ring Gate. You can now move the top half around by moving the Ring Gate it comes out of.
If you don't think it can be moved around, you still made a floating platform.

[Eaglejarl]

Yeah, Reverse Gravity centered on a large but movable object ought to do it. Cast on "ceiling" and then rotate ceiling so it becomes a wall.

I really want that to work, but the spell description doesn't seem to support it -- it doesn't say anything about being oriented relative to an object, or any sort of mobility. Are you looking at something I'm not seeing?

[Eaglejarl]

By my interpretation, Ring Gates transmit gravity. It follows from them transmitting everything else, including spells.

Or you can position a WoF so it goes through the Ring Gate. You can now move the top half around by moving the Ring Gate it comes out of.
If you don't think it can be moved around, you still made a floating platform.

...That. Is. Epic.

Thanks, I will definitely use this!

[unseenmage]

I really want that to work, but the spell description doesn't seem to support it -- it doesn't say anything about being oriented relative to an object, or any sort of mobility. Are you looking at something I'm not seeing?

No. But it brings us to another age old debate about the relativity of spell effects.

For a similar phenomenon, what happens when you cast either Mordicainen's Magnificent Mansion or Wall of Force belowdecks on a ship at sea moving at full speed? On your flying castle? On a gear of Mechanus? On a Moon? A planetoid?

Both spells create a physical barrier that is called out as immobile. But immobile in relation to what exactly?

You see the problem. Either exploits are to be had in cutting basically whatever you want in half with walls of force just by declaring different relative positions than the norm or you get to choose those things when you cast.

That's all. It amounts to a 50/50 chance of working either way since the RAW is silent on the issue. Again. Sometimes the basic design premise that a DM will be there to adjudicate is so frustrating.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Edit: This thread has reminded me that the Portable hole has always seemed really overpriced to me.

Well a Type IV Bag of Holding has 250 cubic feet of space and a weight limit of 1,500lbs. In addition its possible for something sharp inside the bag to rupture the sides. It also weighs 60lbs, how wide the opening can be stretched is also debatable just because the inside is huge doesn't mean the opening is any wider then a normal bag.

How much space does a portable whole have? It has more cubic feet but not by much. With a diameter of six feet and being ten feet deep we get 282 cubic feet of space. However there is no weight limit which is far more important.

The fact a bag of holding Type IV can hold 250 cubic feet of material is largely irrelevant due to the weight limit of only 1,500lbs. Your going to hit the weight limit long before you hit the volume limit. Just to give you an idea, Water is 62.5lbs per cubic foot so after 24 cubic feet your at the limit for a bag of holding type IV. So while the volume may be similar for all practical purposes a Bag of Holding Type IV can hold only a fraction of what a Portable Hole can.

[Phelix-Mu]

Glad this thread was spawned from the other. And just to add fuel to the fire.

PLANAR RING GATES:

These are like super-sized ring gates that work across planes. Much more expensive, bigger weight limit, IIRC. From the Planar Hambook Handbook.

NOW, HAVE AT THEE.

Sorry if these were already mentioned. I don't have time to read the whole thread at the moment, BUT BE SURE THAT I WILL DO SO. Hehehe.

Also, I have a direct line to Cthulu. The Elder God is footing us the catgirls we need to subsidize this discussion. (Warning: I can not be held responsible for unexpected tentacle mutations that may result from the use of this thread.)

[Eaglejarl]

PLANAR RING GATES:

These are like super-sized ring gates that work across planes. Much more expensive, bigger weight limit, IIRC. From the Planar Hambook Handbook.


These were mentioned before; I looked them up but here's the complete text that I see from the Planar Handbook:



Planar ring gates, established 500 gp
Planar ring gates, special commission 1,400+ gp

[...later...]

Planar Ring Gates: Some enterprising wealthy merchant guilds or consortiums have established pairings of planar ring gates. These lead from one well-guarded location in a planar metropolis to a similarly protected spot in another. On occasion, the owner of a pair of planar ring gates may move them to a requested location, provided that the task is easily done and that the new environment is safe. The larger the risk, the larger the cost.

Are there more details somewhere else?

[Vedhin]

PLANAR RING GATES:
Also worth mentioning is that they beat the 100 mile restriction, by replacing it with a seperate planes restriction.



Much more expensive, bigger weight limit, IIRC.
[/quote

YDRC

[quote]
Also, I have a direct line to Cthulu. The Elder God is footing us the catgirls we need to subsidize this discussion. (Warning: I can not be held responsible for unexpected tentacle mutations that may result from the use of this thread.)

Excellent.


Anyway, planar ring gates are awesome. Transmitting gravity and spells not enough for you? Send a planar ring gate to a plane to transmit the environment. The Elemental Planes are good for this. The Paraelemental Planes and Quasielemental Planes are also fun to link to. My personal favorite? Quasielemental Plane of Vacuum.


Also, before doing anything that may abuse physics in horrible ways, stock up on Quintessence, courtesy of your local Psion (Shaper). Time stasis makes things indestructible.

[Vedhin]

Are there more details somewhere else?

Check the Magic Items section.

[Eaglejarl]

Check the Magic Items section.

D'oh. It was listed under "Ring Gates, Planar" and I was searching for "Planar Ring Gates". Thanks.

Only differences I see: Must be on *different* planes to work, instead of on the same plane. 5' diameter instead of 18". 10,000 lb / day limit instead of 100 lb / day. Weight and cost are both higher.

[Vedhin]

D'oh. It was listed under "Ring Gates, Planar" and I was searching for "Planar Ring Gates". Thanks.

Only differences I see: Must be on *different* planes to work, instead of on the same plane. 5' diameter instead of 18". 10,000 lb / day limit instead of 100 lb / day. Weight and cost are both higher.

And what differences they are! So much more can be transported per day, and the diameter is big enough for a Medium sized character to go through comfortably.
And there is a workaround for the weight limit. Put a Portable Hole halfway through a Ring Gate, and lay it down so it opens. Things are put into the Portable Hole, and brought out the other side.

Also, I had a thought about moveable Walls of Force: why not use one a a handheld weapon somehow?

[One Step Two]

Might I suggest a Mirror of Mental prowess (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#mirrorofMentalProwess) instead?

Use it's cross-planar clairvoyance, open a portal into your portable hole, and seal it with a command word at will. No limits for weight.

[Vedhin]

Might I suggest a Mirror of Mental prowess (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#mirrorofMentalProwess) instead?

Use it's cross-planar clairvoyance, open a portal into your portable hole, and seal it with a command word at will. No limits for weight.

While that is nifty, it only transports creatures, and maybe objects. The big advantage of Ring Gates is that anything can go through one.

[Eaglejarl]

And there is a workaround for the weight limit [on Planar Ring Gates]. Put a Portable Hole halfway through a Ring Gate, and lay it down so it opens. Things are put into the Portable Hole, and brought out the other side.


This works, but only with some effort. The ring is 5' in diameter, the Hole is 6'. The Hole does not activate unless it's completely laid out on a surface; if the edge is curled up it won't function. So, to make this work you need to cut a slot in the floor and stand your Ring vertically in it so that the midpoint is at floor level. (This gives you the full 5' width at floor level.) Then lay the Hole out offcenter on the ring so that the ring bisects a chord (i.e., not a full diameter) of the Hole.



Also, I had a thought about moveable Walls of Force: why not use one a a handheld weapon somehow?

Yep, I was thinking of that too. Here's how you would do it: cast your Wall of Force so that it goes up through one Ring Gate and out the other. As you move the other Gate around, you are effectively wielding a Vorpal Blade that bisects on any hit.

A couple of things you need to pay attention to:


Your DM needs to agree that the ring gates constitute a local vertical and that the Wall is immobile in relation to the rings
A WoF has an area of "up to one 10-ft. square/level", meaning you can make it smaller than the maximum size if desired. Therefore, cast your Wall to be 18" wide and as tall as possible


If you're 15th level, your forceblade is 18" wide and 150' long at a minimum. If you're lucky, and your DM feels that you are constrained only by the total area and you can have whatever arrangement of width and height you want, then your blade is 1200' long, which is 12 range increments on a longbow. Best of all, you can see through the ring to tell where your victims are, so you don't need to worry about long distance vision spells.

No wait: best of all, the blade is weightless and invisible; as long as you keep the ring itself out of view you can slice someone down from hundreds of feet away and there's no easy way to tell where the attack is coming from.

For extra range, use Telekinesis (or, shoot, Mage Hand, or even Prestidigitation) to move the second ring around and thereby wield your "sword." With just a little bit of preparation (two Teleports and a Telekinesis etc) you can emplace the ring far away and kill your foes from 100 miles away!