[PF] Melee Wizard Help

[Ziegander]

I have never played Pathfinder, but I'm looking to get into a game soon, and the concept I was interested in pursuing, if it's possible, is a melee Wizard gish. Before I go pouring over the very vast plethora of options at my disposal, I thought I'd check the forums for those who are more experienced with the system to see what they had to say.

Can it be done? What options and spells and PrCs should I be looking into?

[stack]

If you want to go wizard, then eldritch knight is the obvious choice for PRC. Some of the shape spells (mostly ones that let you still use gear and cast like monstrous form) will be good buffs, as well as the standard mirror image and such.

Could also look at hellknight signifier (www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/hellknight-signifer) if you want to wear armor, though this will end up eating feats and action economy for the swifts to reduce ASF.

There isn't anything like abjurant champion though.

To get ahead of everyone asking, have you looked at the magus class? Its an excellent gish-in-a-can, though won't have the shear high-level power and versatility of a wizard.

[Zubrowka74]

The Magus play out 20 level as a gish out of the box, non-core. You get to dual-wield spell + weapon. You get to cast in armor. You've got all sorts of archetypes to go with it. It's the PF version of the Duskblade.

Otherwise you can get Fighter 1 / Wizard 5 / Eldritch Knight 10 (loose 2 spellcasting levels) or Tiefling Wizard 5 / EK 10 (loose only one spellcasting level) which will have more casting and less features. Like, no casting in armor which is absurd considering the art depicts a fully armored knight.

[Ziegander]

So EK's my only option then if I don't want to do Magus (I don't). I want to keep the great versatility the Wizard can afford me. What about feats? Anything helpful there, especially at lower levels?

[Psyren]

You can also look at the Scrollmaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/scrollmaster) archetype for fun. What's interesting about it is that you can potentially get very high enhancement weapons and shields for extremely cheap, e.g. a +4 weapon for 3000 gp instead of 32,000. They are fragile, but you can still use the scroll as intended before it disintegrates.

[anacalgion]

Hang on! I recently had a breakthrough. A while ago in a FAQ section, pathfinder devs ruled that you can use spell like abilities to qualify for prestige classes as if they were spells. My personal recommendation for a gish is to go fighter 1/wizard 1/eldrich knight 10, using aaismar to pick up daylight and meet the 3rd level spell requirement. Plus, no level adjustment, and you can take one of the racial variants to get better stat bonuses.

[stack]

So EK's my only option then if I don't want to do Magus (I don't). I want to keep the great versatility the Wizard can afford me. What about feats? Anything helpful there, especially at lower levels?

Armor or no armor? If you want armor the arcane armor training (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/arcane-armor-training-combat)feats work (with the previously mentioned action drawbacks). Decide if you want strength or dex as your prime physical score too. Probably go dex and get an agile weapon for dex to damage, or dervish dance. Feats are going to look similar to a magus in many ways, so the magus guides (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/-walter-s-lab/embedded-magus) might be a good place to start.

The wizard hook (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/wizard-hook) is a nifty weapon to make you into a magus-lite, giving you spellstrike, though limited by the crappy weapon. The bonus on touch attacks is nice too. See is your DM will let you reverse engineer its abilities onto a scimitar or rapier.

[illyahr]

Be careful with the build though. I ran an elf Ftr1/Wiz5/EK6 specializing in touch-based spells and broke our party at ECL 12. :smallbiggrin:

[stack]

Be careful with the build though. I ran an elf Ftr1/Wiz5/EK6 specializing in touch-based spells and broke our party at ECL 12. :smallbiggrin:

So...just like any other wizard? Except for a few levels later.

[Ailowynn]

Magus is definitely still versatile, it just doesn't hot the insane amount of omnipotence that the wizard has. And half-elf+paragon surge+expanded arcana can fix that. And with magus you will be much better at not dying, between armor/shield proficiencies and a d8 hit die.

[Teh_das]

A transmutation (enhancement) Wizard would also do well. An elf would be able to get you longsword and bow proficiency, you would have access to the best spell list with no downside, and you would have a built in ability boosting mechanic.

[stack]

Magus is definitely still versatile, it just doesn't hot the insane amount of omnipotence that the wizard has. And half-elf+paragon surge+expanded arcana can fix that. And with magus you will be much better at not dying, between armor/shield proficiencies and a d8 hit die.

OP said no to the magus. Also, magi don't get shields.

[Psyren]

Also, magi don't get shields.

The Skirnir archetype does (though we don't talk about that one.)

They can wear bucklers too and still have their hand free for casting, though the AC bonus will be intermittent.

[Zubrowka74]

The forecast for tomorrow : Spells and blades, with chances of intermittent bucklers...

[Psyren]

And a chance of meatballs.

...what were we talking about?

[anacalgion]

Still pretty sure that Fighter 1/Wizard 1/Eldrich Knight is the best way to build a gish in Pathfinder. What do you guys think?

[grarrrg]

Magus is definitely still versatile, it just doesn't hot the insane amount of omnipotence that the wizard has. And half-elf+paragon surge+expanded arcana can fix that.

Um...no, it can NOT fix that.
Magus are Prepared casters, getting temporary use of a spell that you still can't use does not benefit you at all.

[stack]

Still pretty sure that Fighter 1/Wizard 1/Eldrich Knight is the best way to build a gish in Pathfinder. What do you guys think?

It's the best for total power, though the hell knight option loses one less caster level if you don't want the full bab as badly. I personally prefer a magus or alchemist for the task, but that isn't the topic of the thread.

[grarrrg]

It's the best for total power, though the hell knight option loses one less caster level if you don't want the full bab as badly. I personally prefer a magus or alchemist for the task, but that isn't the topic of the thread.

Doing EK _and_ Signifier isn't too bad either.
"fighter" 1/Wizard 5/EK 10/HKS 4 gets 16 Bab and a caster level of 18

[Psyren]

Still pretty sure that Fighter 1/Wizard 1/Eldrich Knight is the best way to build a gish in Pathfinder. What do you guys think?

The problem with wizard gishes is that the main thing that made them viable (transmutation) was sold up the river. Their best spells are now even less related to gishing. Yeah you can wave a sword around while you planar bind an efreet, but why? Just be a pure wizard and wave a staff instead. And you get school powers/arcane discoveries that way too.

I would honestly rank a Magus higher at gishing simply because action economy and class features, neither of which EK gets. Yeah they have weaker spells, but if that matters to you don't even bother with Fighter/EK at all. Getting into EK early just means you can enjoy all the class features you don't get that much sooner.

[Ziegander]

Hang on! I recently had a breakthrough. A while ago in a FAQ section, pathfinder devs ruled that you can use spell like abilities to qualify for prestige classes as if they were spells. My personal recommendation for a gish is to go fighter 1/wizard 1/eldrich knight 10, using aaismar to pick up daylight and meet the 3rd level spell requirement. Plus, no level adjustment, and you can take one of the racial variants to get better stat bonuses.

I will try to do this, but I don't know if the DM will allow it. If you can provide a link to the FAQ that states I can do it, then that'll probably help.


Armor or no armor? If you want armor the arcane armor training (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/arcane-armor-training-combat)feats work (with the previously mentioned action drawbacks). Decide if you want strength or dex as your prime physical score too. Probably go dex and get an agile weapon for dex to damage, or dervish dance. Feats are going to look similar to a magus in many ways, so the magus guides (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/-walter-s-lab/embedded-magus) might be a good place to start.

I'm undecided on armor or no armor so far, but I'm sure I'll make Dex my melee score. Is Pirahna Strike worth it if I'm not dual-wielding? Where can I find an Agile weapon?


A transmutation (enhancement) Wizard would also do well. An elf would be able to get you longsword and bow proficiency, you would have access to the best spell list with no downside, and you would have a built in ability boosting mechanic.

These were my initial thoughts, and I'll definitely still use a lot of transmutation, I'm sure. I might still go Elf with a later entry into Eldritch Knight, but for now I'm going to try and get the Aasimar early entry approved.

EDIT: And you know what, depending on the Magus spell list, I may just change my mind and go Magus.

[anacalgion]

I will try to do this, but I don't know if the DM will allow it. If you can provide a link to the FAQ that states I can do it, then that'll probably help.
Ask and ye shall receive. Big fan of your homebrew by the way.



Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?
Yes.
For example, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat.

Edit 7/12/13: The design team is aware that the above answer means that certain races can gain access to some spellcaster prestige classes earlier than the default minimum (character level 6). Given that prestige classes are usually a sub-optimal character choice (especially for spellcasters), the design team is allowing this FAQ ruling for prestige classes. If there is in-play evidence that this ruling is creating characters that are too powerful, the design team may revisit whether or not to allow spell-like abilities to count for prestige class requirements.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 06/06/13

Here (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm) is the full thing, but that's a direct quote.

[DarkSonic1337]

Um...no, it can NOT fix that.
Magus are Prepared casters, getting temporary use of a spell that you still can't use does not benefit you at all.

Pretty sure Magus can use it's improved spell recall feature to immediately prepare the spell that he just added to his spell book with spell blending.

But Paragon Surge is broken anyway :P

[grarrrg]

Pretty sure Magus can use it's improved spell recall feature to immediately prepare the spell that he just added to his spell book with spell blending.


I stand technically corrected, but it's still a greatly limited tactic.
Given the limited spell slots of a 2/3's caster, the fact that you must pay Pool points to prep the spell, the fact you're still stuck with the Magus's spell list, and the extra action requirement before you can even cast the new spell (Standard, possibly Swift for Surge, Swift for Spell Recall, then actually casting the spell)...

I'd say it isn't really worth it.
I was also responding to the original claim (emphasis added):

Magus is definitely still versatile, it just doesn't hot the insane amount of omnipotence that the wizard has. And half-elf+paragon surge+expanded arcana can fix that.
Magususes cannot get anywhere near the versatility of a Wizard.

[Ziegander]

Magususes cannot get anywhere near the versatility of a Wizard.

Yeah. Having looked at their spell list, I've gotta say, though the class features are sorely tempting, the lack of nearly anything non-combat related in the spell list has me leaning back toward the EK early entry.

[Gamereaper]

If you want to go wizard, then eldritch knight is the obvious choice for PRC. Some of the shape spells (mostly ones that let you still use gear and cast like monstrous form) will be good buffs, as well as the standard mirror image and such.

Could also look at hellknight signifier (www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/hellknight-signifer) if you want to wear armor, though this will end up eating feats and action economy for the swifts to reduce ASF.

There isn't anything like abjurant champion though.

To get ahead of everyone asking, have you looked at the magus class? Its an excellent gish-in-a-can, though won't have the shear high-level power and versatility of a wizard.

If he just goes Battle Sorcerer and prestiges into Abjurant Champion then he'll have 15D8 + 5D10 In HD And A 16/11/6/1 BAB PLUS Full Casting Ability at 20th level with the only sacrifice being a D8 instead of D10, losing bluff for intimidate, and -1 from spells per day and spells known.

That's pretty nifty, I don't know if it is the toughest optimization out there or not, but with a huge range of versatility for minimal sarcifice it's a great deal. Light armor might be an issue, but Abjurant Champion's abilities to not only get a bonus to AC boosting spells equal to their Abjurant Champion level, but casting them as swift actions in those "oh s***" moments REALLY helps. Another cool thing about Abjurant Champion is that all abjuration spells last twice as long too.

He just needs to pick Gish spells (and in my opinion maybe a couple Conjuration, Creation, [Acid] Spells to deal with constructs).

[Psyren]

EK is more powerful (because Wizard) but it isn't much of a gish. You get full BAB and two combat feats and... well, that's really it until the capstone.

The one place I truly do like them is in an AA build. A Wiz/Fighter/EK/AA I can unreservedly say beats the tar off Myrmidarch (archer magus) in almost every respect.

[Gamereaper]

EK is more powerful (because Wizard) but it isn't much of a gish. You get full BAB and two combat feats and... well, that's really it until the capstone.

The one place I truly do like them is in an AA build. A Wiz/Fighter/EK/AA I can unreservedly say beats the tar off Myrmidarch (archer magus) in almost every respect.

They have less survivability though, unless OP doesn't care about that as much as offense. Battle Sorcerers get light armor and more HP. To prestige would also require NO feats on their part and can get into it sooner. Then OP can Gish right from level 1.

[NightbringerGGZ]

EK is more powerful (because Wizard) but it isn't much of a gish. You get full BAB and two combat feats and... well, that's really it until the capstone.

The one place I truly do like them is in an AA build. A Wiz/Fighter/EK/AA I can unreservedly say beats the tar off Myrmidarch (archer magus) in almost every respect.

I'll second the Wiz/Fighter/EK/AA build over Myrmidarch. Personally I prefer Magus better than Wizard/EK, especially when you start taking Magus archetypes into account.

If you could live with a Sorcerer, aren't there some good Sorc/Pali/Dragon Disciple builds?

[Gamereaper]

If you could live with a Sorcerer, aren't there some good Sorc/Pali/Dragon Disciple builds?

What's wrong with a Battle Sorcerer/Abjurant Champion? There is very little sacrifice for BAB, no sacrifice for CL, free metamagic enhanced shielding/armor spells without an increase in SL, and the use of light armor. Where can you go wrong?

[NightbringerGGZ]

What's wrong with a Battle Sorcerer/Abjurant Champion? There is very little sacrifice for BAB, no sacrifice for CL, free metamagic enhanced shielding/armor spells without an increase in SL, and the use of light armor. Where can you go wrong?

Um... Are those Pathfinder classes or archetypes? I don't think I've seen them in any core material.

[anacalgion]

Um... Are those Pathfinder classes or archetypes? I don't think I've seen them in any core material.

They're not, that's 3.5 material. Easy mistake to make.

[Faily]

Yeah. Having looked at their spell list, I've gotta say, though the class features are sorely tempting, the lack of nearly anything non-combat related in the spell list has me leaning back toward the EK early entry.


The Spell-Blending Magus Arcana can fix this and let you pick the Wizard-spells you feel you absolutely need:


"When a Magus selects this arcana, he must select one spell from the Wizard spell list that is of a Magus spell level he can cast. He adds this spell to his spellbook and list of Magus spells known as a Magus spell of its Wizard spell level. He can instead select two spells to add in this way, but both must be at least one level lower than the highest-level Magus spell he can cast. A Magus can select this Magus Arcana more than once."

Pick up See Invisibility and the other nescessities. And voila.

The Magus is also incredibly versatile with preparing spells as well, as he can with the correctly-selected Magus Arcana prepare spells he does not have in his spell-book (but is on the Magus list). Or bring back a spell he cast ("Looks like we need another Dimension Door"). Their Arcana-powers can quickly allow them to *always* have the right spell for every occassion.

[grarrrg]

The one place I truly do like them is in an AA build. A Wiz/Fighter/EK/AA I can unreservedly say beats the tar off Myrmidarch (archer magus) in almost every respect.

But can an Arcane Archer fire an arrow that makes you forget you were hit by that arrow (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/modify-memory)?

Advantage Myrmidarch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/myrmidarch)!

(all credit goes to Baroncognito, Samsaran (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-samsaran) is an easy way to get the spell onto the Magus list)

[Ziegander]

The Spell-Blending Magus Arcana can fix this and let you pick the Wizard-spells you feel you absolutely need:

A grand total of 6 level-appropriate (for the Magus anyway) spells or 2 spells each one level behind. Color me unimpressed.


Their Arcana-powers can quickly allow them to *always* have the right spell for every occassion.

But they really don't. Believe me, I love all of the Magus's class features, they are seriously awesome, but the spell list is not very versatile and the options for expanding it are just not good enough. The Magus can usually have the right spell for almost every combat occasion, but outside of combat, even if you burn all of your Magus Arcana picks on learning Wizard spells, you still don't have anything close to the versatility a Wizard/EK could have. And that's my hang-up. I'd rather sacrifice the in-combat awesome for a great deal more out-of-combat power and versatility.