Do portals work that way?

[Zeitgeist]

If you open a portal on a moving object, does the portal move with it, as if it's tethered, or wouldn't it be in a fixed location?

Then again, I suppose portals are always moving since the planet is rotating and orbiting and whatnot, but you are also moving at the source. Maybe I'm just overthinking it.

[Kish]

3.5ed Wormhole is a psionic power Rich invented, based on (but not a slavish port of) a 2ed psionic power.

In other words, the one and only source of how it works is the OotS comic. It is impossible for said comic to depict it working any way but exactly the way it works.

[Porthos]

3.5ed Wormhole is a psionic power Rich invented, based on (but not a slavish port of) a 2ed psionic power.

In other words, the one and only source of how it works is the OotS comic. It is impossible for said comic to depict it working any way but exactly the way it works.

Technically true, but not exactly very helpful for the OP. :smallwink:

I think comparing this to how Gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) works (ignoring the intra-planar restriction) might be a decent bet. As far as I know, the spell has no additional consequences if cast on a moving ship or whatnot.

[Kish]

Perhaps ironically, I would call that technically true but unhelpful--if the OP's question is about Wormhole, the power depicted in the comic. If someone procured proof that Gate cannot be cast onto a moving ship or that a Gate cast onto a moving ship will stay in place as the ship moves away from it, becoming useless in seconds, that would mean only that Wormhole is further from Gate than previously thought.

If the OP's question was meant to be, instead, whether Gate will work the way Wormhole is depicted in the comic, then never mind, clearly my post was on the wrong subject entirely.

[Xelbiuj]

Why not? It's not the the Earth/terrestrial realm is a static object.

[Porthos]

Perhaps ironically, I would call that technically true but unhelpful--if the OP's question is about Wormhole, the power depicted in the comic. If someone procured proof that Gate cannot be cast onto a moving ship or that a Gate cast onto a moving ship will stay in place as the ship moves away from it, becoming useless in seconds, that would mean only that Wormhole is further from Gate than previously thought.

If the OP's question was meant to be, instead, whether Gate will work the way Wormhole is depicted in the comic, then never mind, clearly my post was on the wrong subject entirely.

See, I read the question more broadly as Zeitgeist said "portals". Which (to me at least) opened the question more broadly to any/all D&D spells/powers that open up a portal from one place to another. Gate being the first that lept to mind.

[NerdyKris]

It's not unbelievable that the portal might have been moving relative to the ship. They weren't at full speed. Julio was still dangling from a rope off the side. And the ship was moving slow enough that Julio had time to grab the rope and cut it before the ship passed overhead, yanking the harpoon back out of the sand.

We're seeing a static shot when the portal opens. It's possible it did just move off the back of the ship, and Tarquin and Laurin simply stepped onto the ship as one would step onto a moving escalator. You can see Laurin is walking when the portal opens, not standing still.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Well I know what happened when these guys tried it~

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WuzPcqsnDo&t=0m25s

[Idylwyld]

Easiest to assume that the portal is fixed relative to a frame of reference chosen by the caster at the time of casting. For casters not aware of planetary motion (or in settings without real world physics) the default frame will logically be the ground but a caster with sufficient intellect or intuition wouldn't have any problem using the deck of the airship as the reference.

I see situations like this as an opportunity to enforce the separation between player and character. Just because the player is smart enough to understand the relative reference concept doesn't mean a character would be.

[Ramien]

Assuming Tarquin and Laurin both went through the portal in the same round, the question is irrelevant so long as they both went through before Bandana's turn in the initiative order came up, since it's a well known fact that vehicles only move on the pilot's initiative. :smallwink:

[DaggerPen]

I got the impression from the comic that this was so, because I'm pretty sure that V landed next to Haley while pushing Tarquin away, yet Laurin is on the other side of the ship behind Tarquin, as though she went through a round later and the ship had moved under her.

[Raphite1]

If it's stationary relative to the airship's velocity and direction at the time of casting, think of the offensive possibilities.

You could open a wormhole on an airship flying toward a castle, veer the airship off course, and then the wormhole would continue flying toward the castle, carving out an arbitrarily long cylinder of stone from all that it intersected, depositing it on the other side of the wormhole. Bonus points if the other side of the wormhole is directly above the troops defending the castle that just had a cylinder carved out of it.

Laurin could probably cast enough wormholes that she could quite quickly level an entire castle, with enough passes of the airship.

[Reddish Mage]

Isn't there a problem with teleportation type effects (including portals) that the caster needs to be at least somewhat familiar with the destination. Laurin's never saw the surface of the airship. Unless she used clairvoyance on it the previous round using line of sight to fix that power.

[Zeitgeist]

Assuming Tarquin and Laurin both went through the portal in the same round, the question is irrelevant so long as they both went through before Bandana's turn in the initiative order came up, since it's a well known fact that vehicles only move on the pilot's initiative. :smallwink:

Touche. Does the portal only last one round? Otherwise it'd start digging into the ship.


If it's stationary relative to the airship's velocity and direction at the time of casting, think of the offensive possibilities.

You could open a wormhole on an airship flying toward a castle, veer the airship off course, and then the wormhole would continue flying toward the castle, carving out an arbitrarily long cylinder of stone from all that it intersected, depositing it on the other side of the wormhole. Bonus points if the other side of the wormhole is directly above the troops defending the castle that just had a cylinder carved out of it.

Laurin could probably cast enough wormholes that she could quite quickly level an entire castle, with enough passes of the airship.

So if it moves at the ships velocity, it would keep flying in that direction until it wore off. Definitely damaging. But does the spell even work that way? If so, if you were being charged by an enemy, you could just create a portal right in their path about 3 feet off the ground and it would cleave them in half. Is it immovable/unstoppable? Does it work that way?

If so, then we have new problems if it is stationary. Putting it in front of the airship would put a big hole through the airship as it flies through the portal (partially).

No matter how you look at it, it seems this spell could be greatly abused.

[factotum]

If so, then we have new problems if it is stationary. Putting it in front of the airship would put a big hole through the airship as it flies through the portal (partially).


I'm not sure it would. In every instance of Wormhole being used, the portal entry is clearly a circle--but it's always intersecting the surface it's standing on, and yet causing no damage to it. Somehow, Wormhole doesn't seem to affect inanimate objects it cuts through.

[Trillium]

From what we've seen, Lauring could just Wormhole the whole castle underwater, drown all defenders and Wormhole it back.

Or just Wormhole a moderately-sized lake above the castle, drowning all defenders all the same.

[Fafnir13]

Given that the planet is already doing a crazy amount of movement, I see no problem with a portal spell being able to tether to a moving object of much smaller scale.

[Eugenitor]

You could open a wormhole on an airship flying toward a castle, veer the airship off course, and then the wormhole would continue flying toward the castle, carving out an arbitrarily long cylinder of stone from all that it intersected, depositing it on the other side of the wormhole.

This assumes that the wormhole can cut through things and won't be stopped by solid objects.

Other people have suggested water, but I recommend something more entertaining, like magma, solid boulders, or osmium elementals. Or Laurin can stick one end of it right next to one of the rift holes and the other end wherever she wants. Then again, someone could do that with a Gate spell.. and whoopsies, there goes the main plot.

Of course, if it works like we're all hoping it does, you can take a character, such as a halfling, increase his velocity to terminal by placing one end a few feet over the other, and then open another hole to fling him at someone's soft and unprotected face. Since these portals don't even need a solid object to be projected upon, the fun is endless.

[Trillium]

This assumes that the wormhole can cut through things and won't be stopped by solid objects.

Other people have suggested water, but I recommend something more entertaining, like magma, solid boulders, or osmium elementals. Or Laurin can stick one end of it right next to one of the rift holes and the other end wherever she wants. Then again, someone could do that with a Gate spell.. and whoopsies, there goes the main plot.

Of course, if it works like we're all hoping it does, you can take a character, such as a halfling, increase his velocity to terminal by placing one end a few feet over the other, and then open another hole to fling him at someone's soft and unprotected face. Since these portals don't even need a solid object to be projected upon, the fun is endless.

Water ensures that the castle can be used later by the conqueror. Magma-molten or boulder-pulverized castle is useless.

[BaronOfHell]

Given that the planet is already doing a crazy amount of movement, I see no problem with a portal spell being able to tether to a moving object of much smaller scale.

I think the issue is that the caster and the planet is more or less moving together, whereas the ship is moving relative to both caster and planet.

Before I knew about greater teleport, I once entertained the thought that if you place Xykon on a celestial body headed fast enough away from the solar system, he wouldn't be able to teleport back to Earth because teleport only allows you to move at a constant speed relative to where you are (on a celestial body moving away from Earth). [Maybe I'm confusing teleport with fly here, though].

Edit: I also considered stuff like, if Greater Teleport does not allow you to change speed accordingly to the object you teleport on top of, a person teleporting to a different planet would probably be in trouble.

On the other hand, if it allows you to change speed accordingly, teleporting "on top" of a bullet would allow you to simply grab the bullet and teleport back to the ground.

I thought that there's probably something preventing this, like a bullet is too small to teleport on top on, whereas an object large enough to do this with, is too large to grab and teleport away with.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Agreed - IMO, the entrance and exit points are determined relative to the caster when created (10 feet North, 5 feet East, 2 feet elevation), so the one they used to board the Mechane would stay directly above the same point on the ground, whether the Mechane was there or not. All they could really do is scoop up anyone/anything that doesn't get out of the way of the wormhole before the ship passes under it - and that's even assuming that things can go through either side of either wormhole, rather than in one side of one, and out the one side of the other, like in Stargate.

[ChristianSt]

I think most of the time teleportation is pretty loosely defined in regards to movement.

Normally I would say fixed relativity to the portal target. So if it is valid to target the ship (or the deck of the ship), then this side would move relative to the ship, while the other side is fixed (or relatively to earth) for the other side. [And yes, If someone would cast such a portal from one ship to another, then I would say both portals would move relatively to the ship they are applied to].

It might be possible to apply the portal in the air (so not "on the Mechane" but "somewhere in the Sky at a place which is currently on the Mechane") - but I would say normally you can't destroy solid object with it (don't some of such spells allow a save?), I would rule if some bigger object tries to enter it, it can't be teleported (and either blocks the gate or it gets pretty ugly if someone from the other side tries to enter - if it is bidirectional)

[Rift_Wolf]

All this is reminding me of the time my entire party wanted to teleport to a coastal town we'd never been to, and couldn't understand why I was travelling by horse instead.

Bottom line, if portals don't work that way, Laurin was very silly to try it.

[Scow2]

Why not? It's not the the Earth/terrestrial realm is a static object.Actually, in D&D Cosmos, it is.

When you look up at night, you're not staring into somewhere on the Material Plane, you're looking at a reflection of the Astral Plane.

But it's all moot point: The mechane was not moving when they came through the portal anyway, because it wasn't its turn!

[Joe the Rat]

Isn't there a problem with teleportation type effects (including portals) that the caster needs to be at least somewhat familiar with the destination. Laurin's never saw the surface of the airship. Unless she used clairvoyance on it the previous round using line of sight to fix that power.

Remember, she was a Julioteer in her youth. She probably had tons of pictures of Julio on the deck of the Mechane...

Or based on the other uses of wormhole, she might be able to home in on specific individuals to target portal openings. She is a telepath as well.

[Zeitgeist]

I'm not sure it would. In every instance of Wormhole being used, the portal entry is clearly a circle--but it's always intersecting the surface it's standing on, and yet causing no damage to it. Somehow, Wormhole doesn't seem to affect inanimate objects it cuts through.

This still doesn't cover what would happen if a person ran through it midway.


Agreed - IMO, the entrance and exit points are determined relative to the caster when created (10 feet North, 5 feet East, 2 feet elevation), so the one they used to board the Mechane would stay directly above the same point on the ground, whether the Mechane was there or not. All they could really do is scoop up anyone/anything that doesn't get out of the way of the wormhole before the ship passes under it - and that's even assuming that things can go through either side of either wormhole, rather than in one side of one, and out the one side of the other, like in Stargate.

Another thing I thought of is motion of the ground for the people going through. Depending on speed, the fact that their stationary ground was suddenly moving would almost for sure knock Tarquin and Laurin over, or even throw them back through the portal like a conveyor belt. The portal surely can't change the velocity of the people passing through it...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The portal surely can't change the velocity of the people passing through it...

Yes, yes it can. Because it does not run on physics, it runs on magic and narrativium. I.e. it works exactly as the people in the world would expect it to work. If that means that the portal adds or subtract from the velocity as necessary to connect and match the speeds of two points moving at different relative speeds, that is exactly what the portal will do.

Also, the empty set contains itself, Klein bottles can be full of water and a Gobbotopian is telling you the truth when he says that all Gobbotopians are liars. :smalltongue:

GW

[Onyavar]

But it's all moot point: The mechane was not moving when they came through the portal anyway, because it wasn't its turn!

Erfscience's complicated but funny.

[orrion]

Also, the empty set contains itself, Klein bottles can be full of water and a Gobbotopian is lying to you when he says that all Gobbotopians are liars. :smalltongue:

GW

Those dirty rat goblins.

[xroads]

Then again, I suppose portals are always moving since the planet is rotating and orbiting and whatnot, but you are also moving at the source. Maybe I'm just overthinking it.

Pretty much. If it can remain stationary on/over solid Earth without immediately flying off into the cold depths of space, then there is no reason for us to suspect it can't remain stationary on a moving vessel.

Then again, I guess I'm making a big assumption that the Earth is moving through space. Who knows, maybe the planet of OOTS is one big patch on the quilt of time and space. And day and night turns at the flip of a switch at the hands of the gods.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And day and night turns at the flip of a switch at the hands of the gods.

It doesn't take the gods to turn off day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0155.html).

Grey Wolf

[BaronOfHell]

Pretty much. If it can remain stationary on/over solid Earth without immediately flying off into the cold depths of space, then there is no reason for us to suspect it can't remain stationary on a moving vessel.


When people say Earth is moving through space, it's usually meant as relative to the Sun. The idea of the portal flying off into space means it's stationary relative to something, but what? The Sun? The Sun isn't stationary relative to the Earth or relative to the center of the Galaxy and so forth.

Why should the portal choose one frame of reference over another? The most reasonable frame I can come up with is the frame of the caster/frame of the object it's cast upon, but that each entrance point does not have to be at the same frame of reference is pretty neat.

[Zeitgeist]

Pretty much. If it can remain stationary on/over solid Earth without immediately flying off into the cold depths of space, then there is no reason for us to suspect it can't remain stationary on a moving vessel.

But then, it could just be a result of their knowledge. They may not realize that they are hurdling through space, but they do realize that the Mechane is moving. You don't have to be a master in physics to realizing jumping off a moving horse will cause some jarring effects, as would landing on a moving object. They must be aware of these things, especially considering they have the intellect for higher magic.

[Cerussite]

To keep consistent with special and general relativity, at casting time, a pair of objects is chosen as each side of the portal's respective frame of reference such that each end of the portal will always seem stationary relative to it.

A naíve caster could choose the sun, but then he'd lose access to his portal the second he enters it. An even more naíve caster could choose himself, but then he'd never be able to go through it. Hence, most of the time, the caster will choose to use as his frame of reference the surface he's standing on.

[Zeitgeist]

To keep consistent with special and general relativity, at casting time, a pair of objects is chosen as each side of the portal's respective frame of reference such that each end of the portal will always seem stationary relative to it.

A naíve caster could choose the sun, but then he'd lose access to his portal the second he enters it. An even more naíve caster could choose himself, but then he'd never be able to go through it. Hence, most of the time, the caster will choose to use as his frame of reference the surface he's standing on.

Or one could say the portals are tethered to a chosen surface. Like a sword. Then you could swing your portal sword at people to send them to the sun. Or use it as a sun-flamethrower.

[jere7my]

Today, I happened to come across this quote from Skip Williams, the sage of Dragon magazine's Sage Advice, and thought it had relevance to this thread:


The difference between technology and magic is this: technology depends on an understanding of reality. Technology works the way it does because someone has thought through a chain of cause and effect that gives a predictable result. For example, a light bulb lights a room because somebody with an understanding of electricity and metallurgy created a situation in which the light bulb must glow brightly when somebody throws the switch.

Magic, by contrast, does not take advantage of some clever person’s knowledge of reality, it literally changes reality to suit the user’s taste. In the AD&D game, each spell’s ability to change reality is narrowly defined in the spell description. It’s helpful to think of any magical spell as a minor wish with a predetermined effect. If your character wants light, he casts a light spell, and he gets light — but that’s all he gets. Of course, the character can do some clever things with that light, such as blind somebody by making the light appear on the end of his nose, but no character will ever bake a cake or incubate an egg with the waste heat from the light spell as one can with an incandescent light bulb, because there isn’t any waste heat.

In other words, discussions of the logical implications of spellcraft are doomed to fail, because spells don't have logical implications. If you try to use a portal to cut someone in half, even if that's what should logically happen, it won't work, because that's not what the spell was designed to do. The portal will disappear, or bump into the person and stop, or some other irrational but bland effect. The "official" responses to these kinds of edge cases / abuses are almost always the same: something bland and slightly irrational happens. Can you crush someone in their armor with a growth spell? No; something bland and slightly irrational happens.

Magic isn't science; it's magic.

[Zeitgeist]

Today, I happened to come across this quote from Skip Williams, the sage of Dragon magazine's Sage Advice, and thought it had relevance to this thread:



In other words, discussions of the logical implications of spellcraft are doomed to fail, because spells don't have logical implications. If you try to use a portal to cut someone in half, even if that's what should logically happen, it won't work, because that's not what the spell was designed to do. The portal will disappear, or bump into the person and stop, or some other irrational but bland effect. The "official" responses to these kinds of edge cases / abuses are almost always the same: something bland and slightly irrational happens. Can you crush someone in their armor with a growth spell? No; something bland and slightly irrational happens.

Magic isn't science; it's magic.

Well, if you crafted the spell yourself, couldn't you just say it does cut them in half? If following rules of physics doesn't matter, then what does matter? The caster's/spellcrafter's interpretation of the spell. Even if we throw logic out the window, there's still room for discussing how the spell works. It's not inconceivable that someone who makes a portal spell might wonder how it would/should work if one passes through the middle of it (or worse yet, it closes while they are in it).

[jere7my]

Well, if you crafted the spell yourself, couldn't you just say it does cut them in half? If following rules of physics doesn't matter, then what does matter? The caster's/spellcrafter's interpretation of the spell. Even if we throw logic out the window, there's still room for discussing how the spell works. It's not inconceivable that someone who makes a portal spell might wonder how it would/should work if one passes through the middle of it (or worse yet, it closes while they are in it).

Sure. But during those discussions it's good to keep in mind 1) an edge case usage of the spell is, by definition, probably not at the forefront of the spell designer's mind, and 2) an interpretation that makes the spell much more powerful, or powerful in a way unrelated to its intended use, is probably not going to be in tune with the mystical energies of the spell. Portals are all about transportation; turning them into siege weapons or vorpal blades isn't in the same wheelhouse.

That's not to say that it can't be fun to discuss the logical implications of D&D spells; OotS has itself been known to do that from time to time. But if you want to arrive at the "official" answer WotC or TSR would give, think of most spells as not-very-adaptable tools for specific situations. You can't crush someone in their armor with Enlarge person, e.g.

[Zeitgeist]

think of most spells as not-very-adaptable tools for specific situations. You can't crush someone in their armor with Enlarge person, e.g.

Which is really sad, because that's exactly how I think.

[jere7my]

Which is really sad, because that's exactly how I think.

That one's actually spelled out in the spell description. "It is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it—the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size."

[DaggerPen]

Which is really sad, because that's exactly how I think.

I think it's how most D&D players think, which is exactly why the source books put the kibosh on it.

[Zeitgeist]

That one's actually spelled out in the spell description. "It is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it—the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size."

Yeah, sometimes the spell description is nice enough to be clear on the matter. That's one thing I think whoever made that spell (in character, not the real life author) would have thought of, since they intended it to be a beneficial spell.

[Lombard]

No matter how you look at it, it seems this spell could be greatly abused.

no way that could never happen

:elan:

[Hamiltonz]

I just thought I'd add a little bit of real science about wormholes. If the potential energy at one end is greater than the other you have a perpetual motion machine. If one end is moving relative to the other you have time travel.

Just placing one end on the ground and the other up in the air (as in the comic). That will produce a breeze through the wormhole blowing out the upper end. The air at the lower opening has more air stacked above it. The inside of the wormhole is shorter than the distance between the openings (by definition). The lower end feels the low pressure of the upper end. The upper end feels the high pressure of the lower end. Place a windmill just down wind of the upper end and you have free energy. Same if you place one just up wind of the lower opening.

The time travel part is a bit trickier to explain. Basically anything in motion relative to another thing will experience the flow of time at a reduced rate. Both ends of the wormhole will move forward through time. It's possible to make one end move slower through time. Make the difference great enough and then bring the ends together and you have a time travel doorway.

In the comic the difference in height is not enough to cause an immediately noticeable breeze. And the difference in motion between the end fixed to the ground and the end fixed to the deck of the Machane is also to small to notice.

As a DM I would up the cost to maintain the potential difference between the ends due to the height difference, or I would reduce the duration of the spell. Same with keeping one end moving relative to the other.

[BaronOfHell]

Just placing one end on the ground and the other up in the air (as in the comic). That will produce a breeze through the wormhole blowing out the upper end. The air at the lower opening has more air stacked above it. The inside of the wormhole is shorter than the distance between the openings (by definition). The lower end feels the low pressure of the upper end. The upper end feels the high pressure of the lower end. Place a windmill just down wind of the upper end and you have free energy. Same if you place one just up wind of the lower opening.

But isn't that assuming the air density distribution due to gravity remains constant? The gravity force vector will also be able to move through the wormhole and redistribute the air accordingly. I'm not convinced a new equilibrium wouldn't simply be reached in stead, with higher air pressure around the wormhole point in the air, as if it had been closer to the ground, similar to a very heavy object occupying a small part of space.

[Cerussite]

Or one could say the portals are tethered to a chosen surface. Like a sword. Then you could swing your portal sword at people to send them to the sun. Or use it as a sun-flamethrower.

Sure... but the amount of PP used to bring two portals one AU apart each would be a bit prohibitive.

[Lombard]

Sure... but the amount of PP used to bring two portals one AU apart each would be a bit prohibitive.

Dude Laurin could do like 50 reps of that and not even break a sweat

[Zeitgeist]

Just placing one end on the ground and the other up in the air (as in the comic). That will produce a breeze through the wormhole blowing out the upper end. The air at the lower opening has more air stacked above it. The inside of the wormhole is shorter than the distance between the openings (by definition). The lower end feels the low pressure of the upper end. The upper end feels the high pressure of the lower end. Place a windmill just down wind of the upper end and you have free energy. Same if you place one just up wind of the lower opening.

Seemingly free energy for awhile, anyway. You're still changing the two environments, possibly causing a future equilibrium (which would be bad in this case). Besides, this is what air generators already do without wormholes. Wind is just the result of pressure changes moving air. That could just as well be defined as "free energy" but it's not regarded as such.

http://www.darklegacycomics.com/409.html

Comically illustrates my point.

[Scow2]

You can't spend more than your manifester level on any single use of a power.

[Raphite1]

Today, I happened to come across this quote from Skip Williams, the sage of Dragon magazine's Sage Advice, and thought it had relevance to this thread:



In other words, discussions of the logical implications of spellcraft are doomed to fail, because spells don't have logical implications. If you try to use a portal to cut someone in half, even if that's what should logically happen, it won't work, because that's not what the spell was designed to do. The portal will disappear, or bump into the person and stop, or some other irrational but bland effect. The "official" responses to these kinds of edge cases / abuses are almost always the same: something bland and slightly irrational happens. Can you crush someone in their armor with a growth spell? No; something bland and slightly irrational happens.

Magic isn't science; it's magic.

Fine, fine, maybe she can't use the airship to fire wormholes at the castle to carve out sections of stone.

Instead she'll have to limit herself to using the airship to fire wormholes through crowds of standing troops. Maybe she won't slice in in half, but she'll totally scoop up many dozens of them and cause them to fall broken upon their colleagues' heads. It'll be like Roy's death scene, hundreds of times over.

Of course - maybe I have to agree with the person who noted that the wormhole on the airship doesn't have to move at all, since the airship only moves on its turn. >=]

[brionl]

I think it's how most D&D players think, which is exactly why the source books put the kibosh on it.

Whenever players try to make a level 0 orison into an "instant death" spell (create water in somebody's lungs for instance), I just tell them "Your character is not the only clever person in the world. Anything your character can do to the NPCs, NPCs can do to your characters." Generally they'll agree that "magic just doesn't work that way."

[Poppy Appletree]

Two things to add to this:

1. Wormhole requires concentration, so Laurin is constantly involved in creating its effect.

2. Laurin can't have known with exact accuracy what point in space to open the portal, so that is clearly not how its effect works. Instead, I believe her "specification" of its location was the deck of the ship; since that is moving, the portal must move with it.

[Scow2]

The portal only stayed open for a single round. Had it stayed open for longer, it may have moved.

[DaggerPen]

Fine, fine, maybe she can't use the airship to fire wormholes at the castle to carve out sections of stone.

Instead she'll have to limit herself to using the airship to fire wormholes through crowds of standing troops. Maybe she won't slice in in half, but she'll totally scoop up many dozens of them and cause them to fall broken upon their colleagues' heads. It'll be like Roy's death scene, hundreds of times over.

And this is why it's a 9th level spell.


Whenever players try to make a level 0 orison into an "instant death" spell (create water in somebody's lungs for instance), I just tell them "Your character is not the only clever person in the world. Anything your character can do to the NPCs, NPCs can do to your characters." Generally they'll agree that "magic just doesn't work that way."

That's fantastic.

[Hamiltonz]

But isn't that assuming the air density distribution due to gravity remains constant? The gravity force vector will also be able to move through the wormhole and redistribute the air accordingly. I'm not convinced a new equilibrium wouldn't simply be reached in stead, with higher air pressure around the wormhole point in the air, as if it had been closer to the ground, similar to a very heavy object occupying a small part of space.

An interesting point. But it would not stop the air from flowing away. It would still fall down as it is surrounded on all sides (below too) by less dense air.

Maybe it would be more obvious if we place one end under water and the other in the air (above the water). Initially the water near the lower opening would react in much the same way as if you had placed a jar in the water open side down and then turned it sideways. Only in this case the air is not being pushed into the water. The water level at the surface will drop slightly as a torrent of water gushes out the other end. Then that water will fall back to the surface. Pressure never builds up to a point where the water stops moving because the water cannot stack all the way back up to the upper end.

There will be an equilibrium of sorts as the system will stabilize with a constant flowing stream of water and a stable water level. Actually that's not entirely true. Falling water generates heat through turbulence. Eventually the heat generated would evaporate enough water that the surface would be lower than the lower end of the wormhole. The air would then boil away for exactly the same reason.

Wormholes are wondrous dangerous creature, much like dragons.

[SteveDJ]

Today, I happened to come across this quote from Skip Williams, the sage of Dragon magazine's Sage Advice, and thought it had relevance to this thread:



In other words, discussions of the logical implications of spellcraft are doomed to fail, because spells don't have logical implications. If you try to use a portal to cut someone in half, even if that's what should logically happen, it won't work, because that's not what the spell was designed to do. The portal will disappear, or bump into the person and stop, or some other irrational but bland effect. The "official" responses to these kinds of edge cases / abuses are almost always the same: something bland and slightly irrational happens. Can you crush someone in their armor with a growth spell? No; something bland and slightly irrational happens.

Magic isn't science; it's magic.

Glad you found that quote (which, sadly doesn't come through when your post is quoted). Because I was going to remind that in addition to portals, time travel has the same problem. One cannot move even just one second into the past (or the future) because the Earth, the solar system, the entire galaxy is in a very different location one second earlier/later. :smallbiggrin:

[factotum]

Glad you found that quote (which, sadly doesn't come through when your post is quoted). Because I was going to remind that in addition to portals, time travel has the same problem. One cannot move even just one second into the past (or the future) because the Earth, the solar system, the entire galaxy is in a very different location one second earlier/later. :smallbiggrin:

Hey, don't knock it--they actually used that as a weapon in the "Strontium Dog" series in 2000AD; a so-called "time bomb" would throw the area around it into the future, by which time the planet they were on at the time had moved on in its orbit, leaving whatever was affected by the blast floating in space.

[Nightsbridge]

Given that the planet is already doing a crazy amount of movement, I see no problem with a portal spell being able to tether to a moving object of much smaller scale.

Just because it works that way in our world doesn't mean it does in this one. In OOTS the gods roll dice to see when people die of old age, there were settlements of humans at the beginning of time, and a zodiac of blue animals are gods. It's entirely possible that the sun stars and moon are just lanterns hung high in the sky that circle round an inanimate earth.

[SteveDJ]

Hey, don't knock it--they actually used that as a weapon in the "Strontium Dog" series in 2000AD; a so-called "time bomb" would throw the area around it into the future, by which time the planet they were on at the time had moved on in its orbit, leaving whatever was affected by the blast floating in space.

Wait? Into the future? Oops! You see, the future would have the planet yet to reach that point in its orbit. So, the area affected by the blast would indeed be floating in space, with a planet barreling down on them! The collision would not be pretty -- for both the piece floating in space, and for the planet!

[Keltest]

Wait? Into the future? Oops! You see, the future would have the planet yet to reach that point in its orbit. So, the area affected by the blast would indeed be floating in space, with a planet barreling down on them! The collision would not be pretty -- for both the piece floating in space, and for the planet!

I think you have that backwards. In the future, the planet would indeed have moved on. The planet would be moving away from them, not towards them. Not that it matters in terms of lethality.

[Reddish Mage]

This is why the Wizards have warned us repeatedly in FAQs to limit spells to the effects as they are stated and not using pseudoscientific explanations for how the power worked. Freedom of action does not remove buoyancy, wormholes are meant to facilitate travel and not for offensive capabilities, like taking chunks out of things.

[maxi]

Today, I happened to come across this quote from Skip Williams, the sage of Dragon magazine's Sage Advice, and thought it had relevance to this thread:



In other words, discussions of the logical implications of spellcraft are doomed to fail, because spells don't have logical implications. If you try to use a portal to cut someone in half, even if that's what should logically happen, it won't work, because that's not what the spell was designed to do. The portal will disappear, or bump into the person and stop, or some other irrational but bland effect. The "official" responses to these kinds of edge cases / abuses are almost always the same: something bland and slightly irrational happens. Can you crush someone in their armor with a growth spell? No; something bland and slightly irrational happens.

Magic isn't science; it's magic.
Actually that would make magic game design. In which a portal disappearing when cast in an illegal place is only the proper thing to do :D
Figuring out rules of magic is then reverse engineering game design. Which makes it so fun.