What makes a dragon?

[Gwazi Magnum]

Really if someone were making a dragon character or a character to simulate a dragon what features would you find be essential?

Atm I'm looking at Dragonwrought Kobold and using an approved homebrew class called Evolutionist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240717) but any other ideas people have on replicating dragon features would be appreciated.

[Rogue Shadows]

Well, to me, the perfect representation of what a dragon's supposed to be is any of the Chromatics or Metalics (but especially Reds) with the Xorvintaal template.

But that's probably not very balanced for a player character.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Well, to me, the perfect representation of what a dragon's supposed to be is any of the Chromatics or Metalics (but especially Reds) with the Xorvintaal template.

But that's probably not very balanced for a player character.

What is it about them you find makes them better than other dragon types for representing a dragon?

[Rogue Shadows]

What is it about them you find makes them better than other dragon types for representing a dragon?

When I think of a dragon, I think of a big, scary creature with wings that breathes fire. Further, while magic certainly enters into the picture, I don't really envision spellcasting. To me, Xorvintaal dragons just represent the iconic "idea" of a dragon, that is, an ancient, destructive being of great intellect who possesses strange, unique abilities.

Standard D&D dragons, meanwhile, feel very much like sorcerers who happen to also be dragons.

[Mith]

It depends on what type of Dragon to be honest. If you want a European Wyrm like Dragon, then I agree with the previous post. If your thinking an Asian Lung Dragon, then I would envision a Serpent like being with spellcasting abilities, since the Dragons of Asia were not just destructive beings.

[OldTrees1]

Dragon:
Scaly
Flight (unless it is one of those Dragon species without wings)
Mental ability great enough that RPing will require assistance.
Spellcasting at a fraction of HD
Breath Weapon

[Gwazi Magnum]

Also another questions, what ways are there (Outside of the evolutionist mutation steps) can I reduce the cool down of a breath weapon?


When I think of a dragon, I think of a big, scary creature with wings that breathes fire. Further, while magic certainly enters into the picture, I don't really envision spellcasting. To me, Xorvintaal dragons just represent the iconic "idea" of a dragon, that is, an ancient, destructive being of great intellect who possesses strange, unique abilities.

Standard D&D dragons, meanwhile, feel very much like sorcerers who happen to also be dragons.

I have to agree with this.
I've found full casting on dragons to be odd.


It depends on what type of Dragon to be honest. If you want a European Wyrm like Dragon, then I agree with the previous post. If your thinking an Asian Lung Dragon, then I would envision a Serpent like being with spellcasting abilities, since the Dragons of Asia were not just destructive beings.

European kind, definitely. Far more interesting to me than the asian kind.

Dragon:
Scaly
Flight (unless it is one of those Dragon species without wings)
Mental ability great enough that RPing will require assistance.
Spellcasting at a fraction of HD
Breath Weapon

For spell casting would spell like abilities work?

Also what main spells work with a dragon flavor wise?

[Drachasor]

Hmm, I wrote up a class years ago that was completely designed to make you as dragon-like as possible. Sorcerer casting at half your level, I think medium BAB, d8s, all medium saves, and you slowly got the Dragon type, wings, claws, etc. Something like that. Hmm, though it might have been full BAB, I don't really remember. Posted it on the Wizard forums but I didn't get much response.

[Afgncaap5]

I generally make my dragons scaly, though I'm not sure if that's really a requirement. I also like the Xorvintal template, since it helps the dragons to be "magical" without being "spellcasters."

I also apply the term "dragon" to certain things in the game that might not look like a dragon in terms of Monster Manual stats. The Basilisk and Tarrasque are both based on folkloric dragons, though neither one of those is actually called a Dragon in terms of racial hit dice. I change their hit points and a few things statistically about them to make them dragons, and let rangers get their bonuses against 'em if they have dragons as a favored enemy.

(The Tarrasque was changed like crazy from its original story, though. You can barely see the "lion-headed turtle" of the original story in the current drawings.)

[Dr. Cliché]

When I think of a dragon, I think of a big, scary creature with wings that breathes fire. Further, while magic certainly enters into the picture, I don't really envision spellcasting. To me, Xorvintaal dragons just represent the iconic "idea" of a dragon, that is, an ancient, destructive being of great intellect who possesses strange, unique abilities.

Standard D&D dragons, meanwhile, feel very much like sorcerers who happen to also be dragons.

I basically agree (I think a dragon-sorcerer should be the exception - not the rule), on the other hand I'm not too keen on the idea of Dragons spending all their time faffing around with some bizarre game. And, since most of the Xorvintaal template directly relates to faffing around with said game, it seems like most of it will be wasted.

I kinda wish there was a Xorvintaal-like template, but with all the abilities being generic (instead of most of them being useless outside of the game).

[Gwazi Magnum]

Hmm, I wrote up a class years ago that was completely designed to make you as dragon-like as possible. Sorcerer casting at half your level, I think medium BAB, d8s, all medium saves, and you slowly got the Dragon type, wings, claws, etc. Something like that. Hmm, though it might have been full BAB, I don't really remember. Posted it on the Wizard forums but I didn't get much response.

It's fine, I'm not looking to recreate a dragon completely anyways.
Just find what main traits to focus on to make the person more dragon like.

Even then I'd only purse those I find cool or fun to use personally.


I generally make my dragons scaly, though I'm not sure if that's really a requirement. I also like the Xorvintal template, since it helps the dragons to be "magical" without being "spellcasters."

I also apply the term "dragon" to certain things in the game that might not look like a dragon in terms of Monster Manual stats. The Basilisk and Tarrasque are both based on folkloric dragons, though neither one of those is actually called a Dragon in terms of racial hit dice. I change their hit points and a few things statistically about them to make them dragons, and let rangers get their bonuses against 'em if they have dragons as a favored enemy.

(The Tarrasque was changed like crazy from its original story, though. You can barely see the "lion-headed turtle" of the original story in the current drawings.)

True, there are lots of kinds of dragons technically.

I'm talking more traditional/European design though.

[OldTrees1]

For spell casting would spell like abilities work?

Also what main spells work with a dragon flavor wise?

One of the major themes of Dragons is that they _are_ magic rather than merely _use_ magic like us lesser races. As such magic comes to them naturally without study as they grow.

So spell-like abilities would be fine depending on how you fluff spell-like abilities.

The main spells for a dragon (flavor wise) depends on the dragon's personality. Are they a pranking Copper, a feral(relatively) White or a tyrannical Red?

The important thing is that while Dragons _are_ magic they are not merely spellcasters. 3rd edition had Dragons as casters lower than the CR in order to demonstrate this point.

[Gwazi Magnum]

One of the major themes of Dragons is that they _are_ magic rather than merely _use_ magic like us lesser races. As such magic comes to them naturally without study as they grow.

So spell-like abilities would be fine depending on how you fluff spell-like abilities.

The main spells for a dragon (flavor wise) depends on the dragon's personality. Are they a pranking Copper, a feral(relatively) White or a tyrannical Red?

The important thing is that while Dragons _are_ magic they are not merely spellcasters. 3rd edition had Dragons as casters lower than the CR in order to demonstrate this point.

If I had to pick a kind of dragon I'd say the more common kinds.

Probably meaning the red ones who are tyrannical and cause chaos.

[Dr. Cliché]

Out of interest, does anyone feel it might be better if dragons cast as warlocks/Dragonfire Adepts? i.e. using Invocations (and maybe Eldritch Blast) instead of spells.

I ask since invocations fit the idea of innate magic, but (for the most part) tend to augment a Dragon's natural abilities or provide an extra option, without having an overwhelming effect.

[OldTrees1]

If I had to pick a kind of dragon I'd say the more common kinds.

Probably meaning the red ones who are tyrannical and cause chaos.

Here is a list of some spells that match the Flavor of a tyrannical dragon (use breath weapon to cause chaos)
Alarm
Alter Self
Analyze Dweomer
Arcane Sight
Break Enchanment
Charm Monster
Contingency
Detect Magic
Dispel Magic
Divination
Dominate Person
Eagle's Spendor
Guards and Wards
Hold Monster
Identify
Major Image
Permanancy
Scrying
See Invisibility
Suggestion, Mass
Tongues
Wall of Force

[Flickerdart]

What is a dragon? A miserable pile of gold coins!