Making a Gish (3.5)

[Jack_Be_Good]

Hey there everybody!

So the latest campaign for my group has come around, and I had the idea to go a little beyond my usual comfort zone of rangers and barbarians. The idea for a Gish came as a result, and I did some research about it.

After reading the handbooks and surfing around several sites, I came to the decision that I should ask you all for some advice. I have until the first couple weeks of January so I'm taking my time on this character.

Right now our characters are meant to be Level 3, with 2700 GP at our disposal.

I'm aiming for a Human Fighter 2/Wizard 1 Gish build. Right now I have his stats and feats finished, what I'm looking for advice on is his Spells and Equipment.

I'm aiming for him to be more combat focused, with the ability to assist teammates out. I'm leaning towards a scythe being his main weapon, with a longsword as a fallback.

Any advice on his loadout?

P.S. I do not have his papers in front of me right now, but when I do I will add his Stats and Feats to this post!

EDIT:

Okay guys and gals, I've got the information for this character in front of me now!

17/16/17/15/15/14

For Feats I was looking at (Took Combat Wizard to squeeze out some extra feats)

Quicken Spell
Armored Caster
Improved Initiative
Power Attack
Cleave
Combat Reflexes.


Familiar: Hawk

School: Conjuration (with Necromancy/Enchantment as my removed).

Race: Human (Only race for this character)

Anything else, feel free to ask for.

[Urpriest]

In what sort of situation would you fall back to a longsword? If your scythe was sundered or something?

[Zweisteine]

His armor depends on what class features you chose. There is a fighter ACF (armored mage, Complete Mage) that replaces the first level bonus feat with the ability to ignore some (maybe all light armor's) Arcane Spell Failure chance. If you do not have something like this, you probably want to change the build.

You won't be able to use a shield because you need a free hand to cast with, so I would recommend a longsword or the like. Depending on the rest of the build, you might want Weapon Finesse and a rapier instead.

Also, the scythe is not a particularly good weapon unless you are a crit-fisher. I wold recommend the greatsword.

I suggest you state the build, so we know what we're dealing with. A lot of gear depends on what the character looks like on paper.

Fighter/Wizard is generally considered a very weak combo. You might want to look into the Duskblade class (PH2) (aka Gish in a can). (Hexblade and Warmage are also pre-made gishes)

Gish guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8786)

[Urpriest]

Fighter/Wizard is generally considered a very weak combo. You might want to look into the Duskblade class (PH2) (aka Gish in a can). (Hexblade and Warmage are also pre-made gishes)

Gish guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8786)

This is a bizarre and persistent misunderstanding. Warmage is in no sense a gish.

[infomatic]

Fighter2/Wiz1 is fine as Gishes go. (At this level, you really aren't a gish b/c your casting is almost nil, but it's a fine start)

Warmage is not a good idea. Stay away from it.

What books are allowed?

[Snowbluff]

In addition to books, can we have how frequently you plan to level/when you will be retiring the character?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

On a Human character, only get two Fighter levels if you're going to get the Dungeoncrasher ACF and Polymorph into a large+ form with Knock-Back (RoS) and/or use Melf's Unicorn Arrow (PH2) with it. Otherwise start out Human Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon) 1/ Fighter 1/ Wizard 1 instead. Aim for going (Human Paragon 3/ Fighter 1/ Wizard 2) or (Fighter 2/ Wizard 4) into Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 8. If you want ultimate power replace some Eldritch Knight levels with up to four Incantatrix levels for persistent spell shenanigans.

[nedz]

Fighter/Wizard is generally considered a very weak combo. You might want to look into the Duskblade class (PH2) (aka Gish in a can). (Hexblade and Warmage are also pre-made gishes)


Duskblade 20 is solid, Hexblade is average and Warmage is a poor attempt at a Blaster.

No one seems to have mentioned Sorcadin yet ?
Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / ...
is a standard build. Cha focussed obviously.

[Jack_Be_Good]

In what sort of situation would you fall back to a longsword? If your scythe was sundered or something?

Sundered, knocked away, not conducive to the location of the fight (tunnel or crowded market might not be the best location to rely on a large blade on a stick). The longsword is to have a nice fallback weapon. I might consider switching it out for a blunt weapon instead though, so I can cover the range of weapon types.


His armor depends on what class features you chose. There is a fighter ACF (armored mage, Complete Mage) that replaces the first level bonus feat with the ability to ignore some (maybe all light armor's) Arcane Spell Failure chance. If you do not have something like this, you probably want to change the build.

You won't be able to use a shield because you need a free hand to cast with, so I would recommend a longsword or the like. Depending on the rest of the build, you might want Weapon Finesse and a rapier instead.

Also, the scythe is not a particularly good weapon unless you are a crit-fisher. I wold recommend the greatsword.

I suggest you state the build, so we know what we're dealing with. A lot of gear depends on what the character looks like on paper.


To answer your comments...

First, I actually snagged something close to Armored Mage. Talked to my DM and he recommended Armored Caster (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Armored_Caster_(3.5e_Feat)) as I get a 10% reduction to ASF and don't have to lose my proficiency in other armors.

Second, I will be adding the list of Stat's and Feats to my main post as soon as I can get my sheet in front of me. I have them written down, but I'm away from my home right now and cannot access them.

Also, I chose the Scythe as it is a x4 Crit, a decent damage rate, can be used to trip, and offers both Slashing/Piercing damage.

I already examined the handbook you linked and determined (using that handbook and other sources) that the wizard/fighter would A) Best fit my backstory and B) Allow for some more versatility than the other classes.



Warmage is not a good idea. Stay away from it.

What books are allowed?

I am allowed access to all books with two exceptions...

Tome of Battle and The Book of Erotic Fantasy.

My DM has had too many sour experiences with ToB breaking his campaigns so he tends to ban it (Sometimes he makes exceptions, but this campaign is not one of them), and the BEF is just to... exploitable to say the least.



Can we have how frequently you plan to level/when you will be retiring the character?

With this particular DM... that's a good question. Usually you can expect to level once a session, maybe once every other session. Stretches out, but he likes being able to watch the characters progress without forcing them to chew through waves of monsters.

As for myself... I really do enjoy this character. I loved the backstory for him, and I don't really plan on dropping him. Hopefully I won't be retiring this fella until the far future... Unless he dies. In which case I'll be sad, then reroll.


On a Human character, only get two Fighter levels if you're going to get the Dungeoncrasher ACF and Polymorph into a large+ form with Knock-Back (RoS) and/or use Melf's Unicorn Arrow (PH2) with it. Otherwise start out Human Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon) 1/ Fighter 1/ Wizard 1 instead. Aim for going (Human Paragon 3/ Fighter 1/ Wizard 2) or (Fighter 2/ Wizard 4) into Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 8. If you want ultimate power replace some Eldritch Knight levels with up to four Incantatrix levels for persistent spell shenanigans.

...Lot of words. Took me a minute to parse this out, but I think I get what you're saying. You're suggesting a build focusing towards a Bull-Rush, Knock-Back, smack 'em around with your bulk kind of thing? I did read into that a bit, but I was hesitant to lean towards it. Not sure why, I guess I felt it didn't really fit into my mindset at the time.

That being said, I definitely find Melf's Unicorn Arrow to be rather interesting, I'll consider picking it up.

Also... could you please explain Paragon to me? I've heard it a few times, but never really got what it was.


One final note is that I will be excommunicated from my group for using templates. I can take suggestions and recommendations, but my group is viciously against templates and following to the letter guides. I can take advice and recommendations, but if I were to use a template... I would be gone pretty fast.

Thank you for helping me out with this!

[Urpriest]

Sundered, knocked away, not conducive to the location of the fight (tunnel or crowded market might not be the best location to rely on a large blade on a stick). The longsword is to have a nice fallback weapon. I might consider switching it out for a blunt weapon instead though, so I can cover the range of weapon types.

A Scythe doesn't have reach, it's no harder to use in close quarters than a Longsword. While I see the value of a backup weapon, a Morningstar might be a better fit, since as you said that lets you cover more weapon types.

Anyway, Fighter 2/Wizard 1 is a fine way to start a gish. It lets you use a build similar to the Sorcadin, but you can lose more casting to get more BAB if you really want, or go the other way and lose BAB for nifty class features. Human Paragon just happens to serve a similar role, just blooming a few levels later (which if you're leveling once per session won't be a problem).

Note that if you can use that version of Armored Mage, then your DM is letting you use homebrew, and you should probably tell us precisely what sort of homebrew is allowed. If the homebrew you guys have access to is too powerful/broken, then it's going to be better than any option we're likely to suggest.

In terms of spells, Enlarge Person will help you hit enemies before they can hit you. Consider some spells that can knock enemies out like Color Spray, since your Scythe will make you well able to Coup de Grace those who fall unconscious.

Equipmentwise, focus on things that make your life easier, and that your DM is unlikely to think of when generating loot. Everfull Rations, Handy Haversack, and Healing Belt are all nice utility items. You'll get plenty of AC and save boosters just from your DM populating treasure piles, and from your allies passing you gear after they get upgrades.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

...Lot of words. Took me a minute to parse this out, but I think I get what you're saying. You're suggesting a build focusing towards a Bull-Rush, Knock-Back, smack 'em around with your bulk kind of thing? I did read into that a bit, but I was hesitant to lean towards it. Not sure why, I guess I felt it didn't really fit into my mindset at the time.

That being said, I definitely find Melf's Unicorn Arrow to be rather interesting, I'll consider picking it up.

Also... could you please explain Paragon to me? I've heard it a few times, but never really got what it was.

If you take two Fighter levels, do it for the Dungeoncrasher gimmick. If you're not planning on using that, then use three levels of the Human Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon) as I suggested since the benefits are downright better. The racial paragon classes at that link are just like any prestige class, but since the only prerequisite is race you can start taking it at 1st level. It's Fighter 2/ Wizard 4 vs Human Paragon 3/ Fighter 1/ Wizard 2, the latter gets more HP, a lot more skill points, the same number of bonus feats, and +2 to an ability score, with the same BAB and spellcasting progressions. Those are your best options for qualifying for Spellsword with the least loss of both BAB and spellcsating, and after a single Spellsword level you can start taking Abjurant Champion.

[Kraklen88]

I really like the Human Paragon suggestion. I need to use those in some of my more recent builds.

I was going to suggest Swashbuckler 2/Wizard 1. That way, at your next level, you can add your int bonus to damage. Instead of a scythe, use a sickle. Bingo. And then you won't be tempted with heavy armor.

[Snowbluff]

If you aren't so worried about early levels, Wizard6/Swiftblade9/Spelldancer1/Abjurant Champion 4. Ocular Persisted Haste.

[Vizzerdrix]

Are you going to be a generalist wizard? Focusing on Divination can be very handy. Nerveskitter and truestrike are good arguments to become a focused specialist gish.

Gishes can make decent use out of improved Familiar. Earth mephits make very good flank buddies because you can give it your hand me downs.

At 9th level arcane strike is gold. Don't think of it as burning up spells, think of it as extra versatility for unneeded situational spells.

Alchemical items: You can make them and some stay useful for a long, long time. An eggshell grenade at the right time can with an encounter before it starts.

Don't forget your fey crafted, thistle down, twilight mithril armor and a set of mithril dastanas (depending on armor worn).

Remember to keep your defenses up and you'll be fine.

[Jack_Be_Good]

A Scythe doesn't have reach, it's no harder to use in close quarters than a Longsword. While I see the value of a backup weapon, a Morningstar might be a better fit, since as you said that lets you cover more weapon types.

Thanks for the suggestion. I was considering the Morningstar for my backup weapon. Having a dagger or two is always handy as well I would say.


I really like the Human Paragon suggestion. I need to use those in some of my more recent builds.

I was going to suggest Swashbuckler 2/Wizard 1. That way, at your next level, you can add your int bonus to damage. Instead of a scythe, use a sickle. Bingo. And then you won't be tempted with heavy armor.

Sounds fun, but it doesn't flow with the character backstory, and I want to stick close to that.


Anyway, Fighter 2/Wizard 1 is a fine way to start a gish. It lets you use a build similar to the Sorcadin, but you can lose more casting to get more BAB if you really want, or go the other way and lose BAB for nifty class features. Human Paragon just happens to serve a similar role, just blooming a few levels later (which if you're leveling once per session won't be a problem).

If you take two Fighter levels, do it for the Dungeoncrasher gimmick. If you're not planning on using that, then use three levels of the Human Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon) as I suggested since the benefits are downright better. The racial paragon classes at that link are just like any prestige class, but since the only prerequisite is race you can start taking it at 1st level. It's Fighter 2/ Wizard 4 vs Human Paragon 3/ Fighter 1/ Wizard 2, the latter gets more HP, a lot more skill points, the same number of bonus feats, and +2 to an ability score, with the same BAB and spellcasting progressions. Those are your best options for qualifying for Spellsword with the least loss of both BAB and spellcsating, and after a single Spellsword level you can start taking Abjurant Champion.

Thanks for the suggestion on Paragon! I think I will definitely be going in that direction. I'll likely be doing Paragon 1/Fighter 1/Wizard 1... That should work for these opening levels.


Note that if you can use that version of Armored Mage, then your DM is letting you use homebrew, and you should probably tell us precisely what sort of homebrew is allowed. If the homebrew you guys have access to is too powerful/broken, then it's going to be better than any option we're likely to suggest.

Just got off the horn with my DM. Homebrews are permitted but have to go through him for approval first. Basically if it's out there, I will just need to see if he'll allow it.


In terms of spells, Enlarge Person will help you hit enemies before they can hit you. Consider some spells that can knock enemies out like Color Spray, since your Scythe will make you well able to Coup de Grace those who fall unconscious.

Equipmentwise, focus on things that make your life easier, and that your DM is unlikely to think of when generating loot. Everfull Rations, Handy Haversack, and Healing Belt are all nice utility items. You'll get plenty of AC and save boosters just from your DM populating treasure piles, and from your allies passing you gear after they get upgrades.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm writing them down for later!


If you aren't so worried about early levels, Wizard6/Swiftblade9/Spelldancer1/Abjurant Champion 4. Ocular Persisted Haste.

Any particular reasoning? Sorry, I'm just rather new to the arcane bits, I've mostly done smash & stabs before this.


Are you going to be a generalist wizard? Focusing on Divination can be very handy. Nerveskitter and truestrike are good arguments to become a focused specialist gish.

Gishes can make decent use out of improved Familiar. Earth mephits make very good flank buddies because you can give it your hand me downs.

At 9th level arcane strike is gold. Don't think of it as burning up spells, think of it as extra versatility for unneeded situational spells.

Alchemical items: You can make them and some stay useful for a long, long time. An eggshell grenade at the right time can with an encounter before it starts.

Don't forget your fey crafted, thistle down, twilight mithril armor and a set of mithril dastanas (depending on armor worn).

Remember to keep your defenses up and you'll be fine.

That... sounds like expensive armor. Hopefully I can put aside some cash for that or snag it through some narrative.

As for the spell suggestions... You actually got me pretty good there. I was leaning for more generalist spells and things to give me an edge in combat. Nerveskitter and Truestrike were two spells I actually picked out. That and Mage Armor, because AC. My problem is that I need to be thinking long term with this character and his spell choices, because I'm hoping this fella outlasts his predecessors.

Alchemical items sound pretty handy, I'll be keeping that in mind.

I'll have to take a look into Improved Familiar.


To everyone else that posts, I will be able to put up my characters information in about ten hours. That's the soonest I'll be able to get to my character sheet. Thank you very much for the advice and recommendations!

[Vizzerdrix]

Long term, Divination only gets better.

And armor like that is a mid range goal, but very worth it.

[Red Fel]

That... sounds like expensive armor. Hopefully I can put aside some cash for that or snag it through some narrative.

The reason the armor is expensive is to overcome the ASF that often comes with wearing medium/heavy armor as a gish. One way around that, as mentioned, is the Duskblade, which eliminates ASF from light armor and shields at level 1, medium armor at level 4, and heavy shields at level 7.

It isn't as feat-happy as your Fighter/Wis build, but it has its share of potency. Arcane Channeling is also a big thing.

As an aside, you mentioned that your build might be Paragon 1/ Fighter 1/ Wizard 1. I'd advise against ever taking an odd number of Fighter levels. As long as you're taking Fighter, take an even number and stash the bonus feat.

[Fouredged Sword]

One thought, and one that can reduce your attribute MAD problems, is to be an elf, and get Fairy Mysteries Initiate as an early feat.

One can go Fire Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#fireElves)

Fighter 1 / Wizard 1 / Elf Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#elfParagon) 3

Set your stats up for

Int > Str > Dex > Wis > Cha > Con

It is much like the above human build, but due to Fairy Mysteries Initiate, you replace your Con mod with your Int mod when determining HP. Fire elves start with a penalty to con and bonus to int. What more, elf paragon adds another +2 to int at 3rd level.

As for your spell selection. Don't worry about longterm with what spells to add to your spellbook. A wizard's spellbook means never having to say 'I wish I had X spell as a spell known'. Buy lots of scrolls and write them into your spellbook. This is VERY cheap for your spell selections of lower levels.

On top of that, you get some nice bonuses, like the ability to resist enchantments and free weapon focus (longsword)

The Elven Generalist ACF is basically a free extra spell slot at your highest level for a generalist who happens to be an elf. Then you can use martial wizard ACF to trade scribe scroll for improved initiative (+4 initiative), and take a hummingbird as your familiar for ANOTHER +4 to initiative. That should make sure you go first, so you can drop some nice battlefield control spell before moving into combat.

[Jack_Be_Good]

Long term, Divination only gets better.

And armor like that is a mid range goal, but very worth it.

I was considering Conjuration for my main school, but I'll definitely look into Divination.


The reason the armor is expensive is to overcome the ASF that often comes with wearing medium/heavy armor as a gish. One way around that, as mentioned, is the Duskblade, which eliminates ASF from light armor and shields at level 1, medium armor at level 4, and heavy shields at level 7.

It isn't as feat-happy as your Fighter/Wis build, but it has its share of potency. Arcane Channeling is also a big thing.

As an aside, you mentioned that your build might be Paragon 1/ Fighter 1/ Wizard 1. I'd advise against ever taking an odd number of Fighter levels. As long as you're taking Fighter, take an even number and stash the bonus feat.

It's just out of my price range for the moment. Soooooon...

Also, I do agree that even Fighter levels are good, but I do only have three levels to work with and I need to get them settled in for the early game. It will take some time before I can get my levels settled out nicely.


One thought, and one that can reduce your attribute MAD problems, is to be an elf, and get Fairy Mysteries Initiate as an early feat.

One can go Fire Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#fireElves)

Fighter 1 / Wizard 1 / Elf Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#elfParagon) 3

Set your stats up for

Int > Str > Dex > Wis > Cha > Con

It is much like the above human build, but due to Fairy Mysteries Initiate, you replace your Con mod with your Int mod when determining HP. Fire elves start with a penalty to con and bonus to int. What more, elf paragon adds another +2 to int at 3rd level.

As for your spell selection. Don't worry about longterm with what spells to add to your spellbook. A wizard's spellbook means never having to say 'I wish I had X spell as a spell known'. Buy lots of scrolls and write them into your spellbook. This is VERY cheap for your spell selections of lower levels.

On top of that, you get some nice bonuses, like the ability to resist enchantments and free weapon focus (longsword)

The Elven Generalist ACF is basically a free extra spell slot at your highest level for a generalist who happens to be an elf. Then you can use martial wizard ACF to trade scribe scroll for improved initiative (+4 initiative), and take a hummingbird as your familiar for ANOTHER +4 to initiative. That should make sure you go first, so you can drop some nice battlefield control spell before moving into combat.

Not too bad, but unfortunately I'm relying on the Human race. Can't switch it up now as it wouldn't fit my backstory. Thanks for the suggestion though.

[Fouredged Sword]

Some of the suggestions are race neutral. Martial Wizard ACF is race neutral, and will net you one fighter feat in return for scribe scroll. The hummingbird familiar is one of the best options as well.

[JohnDaBarr]

With Duskblade + Glaive + Whirlwind attack you can't go wrong

pro tip: get the 3/day enchantment for Whirlwind not the feat (because the feat costs you 5-6 other feats)

[Fouredged Sword]

With a duskblade, and applying whirlwind attack, it becomes worth it to get a spiked chain and prof for said chain. Getting large gives you lots of options for where to stand and hit most of the combat space.

[Red Fel]

With a duskblade, and applying whirlwind attack, it becomes worth it to get a spiked chain and prof for said chain. Getting large gives you lots of options for where to stand and hit most of the combat space.

Better yet, see if you can get the Bloodstone property on that Spiked Chain. Spellstoring Empowered Vampiric Touch? Yes please.

[Darrin]

That... sounds like expensive armor. Hopefully I can put aside some cash for that or snag it through some narrative.


Given your budget, I'd probably start with a mithral chain shirt. We can get the ASF down to 0% with Thistledown (Races of the Wild) and Feycraft (DMGII). Githcraft is a bit more expensive (600 GP), but you might find the +1 untyped bonus to concentration checks more useful than the +1 untyped bonus to Bluff checks that Feycraft offers. But with the really tight budget, it's probably best to go with Feycraft.

100 GP, Chain shirt
1000 GP, Mithral
250 GP, Thistledown padding
500 GP, Feycraft

AB: +4 MDB: +6 ACP: 0 ASF: 0% SPD: 30 WT: 10#
Price: 1850 GP

Dastana adds another +1 armor bonus that stacks with your chain shirt. We can knock off the 5% ASF with Feycraft and... I want to say we can get rid of the -1 ACP by making it masterwork, but that costs another 150 GP, and your funds are pretty tight. If we leave that off, there's enough money left over for a masterwork weapon:

1850 GP, Feycraft Thistledown Mithral Chain Shirt
525 GP, Feycraft Dastana
320 GP, Masterwork Greataxe
--------
2695 GP

That leaves 5 GP for backpack/bedroll/rope/waterskin/etc. Greatsword would be slightly better (7 average damage instead of 6.5). If you have some spare skill points, you could put some ranks into Craft: Weaponsmith, and make the masterwork greatsword yourself for 116.66 GP. That could free up another 200 GP for equipment.

[Jack_Be_Good]

Some of the suggestions are race neutral. Martial Wizard ACF is race neutral, and will net you one fighter feat in return for scribe scroll. The hummingbird familiar is one of the best options as well.

My apologies, I didn't look as thoroughly through that as I thought. I actually did take Martial Wizard ACF, which swapped Improved Initiative for Scribe Scroll in my original setup.




With Duskblade + Glaive + Whirlwind attack you can't go wrong

pro tip: get the 3/day enchantment for Whirlwind not the feat (because the feat costs you 5-6 other feats)

With a duskblade, and applying whirlwind attack, it becomes worth it to get a spiked chain and prof for said chain. Getting large gives you lots of options for where to stand and hit most of the combat space.

Seems Duskblade is getting rather popular. I'm still not a huge fan of it though. I prefer having the ability to diversify it up rather than relying on the 'Gish in a Can'.

[Jack_Be_Good]

100 GP, Chain shirt
1000 GP, Mithral
250 GP, Thistledown padding
500 GP, Feycraft

AB: +4 MDB: +6 ACP: 0 ASF: 0% SPD: 30 WT: 10#
Price: 1850 GP

1850 GP, Feycraft Thistledown Mithral Chain Shirt
525 GP, Feycraft Dastana
320 GP, Masterwork Greataxe
--------
2695 GP

That leaves 5 GP for backpack/bedroll/rope/waterskin/etc. Greatsword would be slightly better (7 average damage instead of 6.5). If you have some spare skill points, you could put some ranks into Craft: Weaponsmith, and make the masterwork greatsword yourself for 116.66 GP. That could free up another 200 GP for equipment.

That... is pretty well thought out. Thank you for putting effort into this post. I do have an additional -10% ASF from my Armored Caster feat, which would help knock down the Penalty from the armor. That being said, utilizing the Feycraft in both the Mithral Chain and the Dastana would be a great method to reducing the amount of trouble I would find myself in...

[Darrin]

I do have an additional -10% ASF from my Armored Caster feat, which would help knock down the Penalty from the armor.

I'm not familiar with the Armored Caster feat. Where is that from?

Hmm. With an additional -10% ASF... then a mithral thistledown chain shirt (1350 GP) and a MW dastana (175 GP) might be a better deal than what I posted earlier. Almost enough savings there for a +1 enhancement to the armor (+1000 GP).

[Andezzar]

I wouldn't invest too much into armor, if you plan to go into Abjurant Champion.

With Greater Luminous Armor and Shield alone an Abjurant Champion 5 is at AC 32 and still can use unlimited DEX to AC.

[Snowbluff]

Any particular reasoning? Sorry, I'm just rather new to the arcane bits, I've mostly done smash & stabs before this.



Swiftblade gives a large number of bonuses for each casting of the Haste spell. These benefits are (Ex) at level 6, and therefore can not be dispelled. Spelldancer can apply metamagic by dancing for so many rounds before casting a spell. Ocular Persisted Haste gets you the benefits of Swiftblade for 24 hours as day.

[Xerlith]

I think that when beginning the fun with gishing, taking a gish out-of-the-box isn't something bad to do. You can always build upon it, like...

Duskblade3/Hexblade3/Suel Arcanamach3/Abjurant Champion5/Swiftblade6 - it is always fun. Swiftblade goodies come into play late, though.

Duskblade3/Paladin2/Suel3/AbjChamp5/Sacred Exorcist1/Paladin+2 gives you two Turning pools that you can use to fuel divine feats. Leaves you with 4 levels free.

For more orthodox use, a Human Wizard1/Human paragon3/wizard+1/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Eldritch Knight9 gets 9th level spells, 18 BAB and some nifty AbjChamp bonuses early.

[Icewraith]

As an aside, you mentioned that your build might be Paragon 1/ Fighter 1/ Wizard 1. I'd advise against ever taking an odd number of Fighter levels. As long as you're taking Fighter, take an even number and stash the bonus feat.

I'd disagree slightly here. Fighter one is fine if you need one more feat, BAB, proficiency in all martial weapons, and can spare a caster level (and don't care about dungeoncrashing). Fighter three and above, this is a good rule of thumb.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

As an aside, you mentioned that your build might be Paragon 1/ Fighter 1/ Wizard 1. I'd advise against ever taking an odd number of Fighter levels. As long as you're taking Fighter, take an even number and stash the bonus feat.

This is actually very poor advice, given the ideal build. Especially considering how few Fighter feats he would actually need on this character, and that he already gets two in those first three levels counting Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard).

[Jack_Be_Good]

Swiftblade gives a large number of bonuses for each casting of the Haste spell. These benefits are (Ex) at level 6, and therefore can not be dispelled. Spelldancer can apply metamagic by dancing for so many rounds before casting a spell. Ocular Persisted Haste gets you the benefits of Swiftblade for 24 hours as day.

Okay, so Swiftblade is looking pretty snazzy then.


I'd disagree slightly here. Fighter one is fine if you need one more feat, BAB, proficiency in all martial weapons, and can spare a caster level (and don't care about dungeoncrashing). Fighter three and above, this is a good rule of thumb.


This is actually very poor advice, given the ideal build. Especially considering how few Fighter feats he would actually need on this character, and that he already gets two in those first three levels counting Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard).

So then I think my first three levels seem pretty decently chosen?


I think that when beginning the fun with gishing, taking a gish out-of-the-box isn't something bad to do. You can always build upon it, like...

Duskblade3/Hexblade3/Suel Arcanamach3/Abjurant Champion5/Swiftblade6 - it is always fun. Swiftblade goodies come into play late, though.

Duskblade3/Paladin2/Suel3/AbjChamp5/Sacred Exorcist1/Paladin+2 gives you two Turning pools that you can use to fuel divine feats. Leaves you with 4 levels free.

For more orthodox use, a Human Wizard1/Human paragon3/wizard+1/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Eldritch Knight9 gets 9th level spells, 18 BAB and some nifty AbjChamp bonuses early.

Hrm...so you're suggesting starting leaning towards a magic build with some Paragon to give me a bit of an edge, then shift towards more combat base?

[Urpriest]

Hrm...so you're suggesting starting leaning towards a magic build with some Paragon to give me a bit of an edge, then shift towards more combat base?

Pretty sure the build suggested there was actually illegal. If you want to qualify for Spellsword that early, you do need a level of Fighter.

That said, keep in mind that even a caster-heavy build is still a "combat base". Fighter is only more "combat"-y than a Wizard because it gets good numbers: high attack bonus, hit points, and weapon proficiencies. Spells can substitute in for a lot of those benefits.

Human Paragon 1/Fighter 1/Wizard 1 is a fine start, though you could also delay your Fighter level till a couple levels later (still need it before Spellsword to get BAB and proficiencies).

And yeah, Swiftblade would be a very different build for those early levels, since Swiftblade is far less forgiving in terms of lost caster levels. It's still viable, but it would be much more of a "start with magic, get combat later" setup.

[herrhauptmann]

It's mostly irrelevant since Jack is using a homebrew armored mage feat, but I want to add something about the fighter ACF Armored Mage.

The ACF limits you to light armor and light shields, so long as the spell being cast is no more than 1 level higher than your fighter level.
So a 1 level dip in fighter, and you ignore ASF on 2nd level or below spells.


Pretty sure the build suggested there was actually illegal. If you want to qualify for Spellsword that early, you do need a level of Fighter. The third one posted? Yeah, you need all simple and martial weapons, and all armors.