Curious what you think.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

If WotC had combined the spell lists and class features of the Beguiler and Warmage to form a new class would that class be any good?

A class focused on both blasting and face spells is totally unique and many class features are similar, Advanced Learning, Armored Mage, etc.

I was curious because I was recently looking up the Beguiler and glanced over to the Warmage and found myself wishing I could just combine the classes into 1 and make it so much better for it.

[eggynack]

What do you mean by "any good"? I don't see how the two classes combine on a thematic level, but you should end up with a reasonably high up tier three. I think you meant the former topic, so how do these classes combine on a thematic level, or even on a synergistic class feature level?

[Flickerdart]

Beguiler is already a very good class - one of the best T3s out there. Warmage is a mediocre T4 boomstick. If you ever feel the need to blast as a beguiler, you're not playing them right.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Ok maybe I picked poor wording. I do apologize for it if that was the case.

If you made a class by whatever name.
Gave it a spell list that was composed of the spells from both the Beguiler and the Warmage.

Yes Thematically they are not very close, but they don't have to be. A Manipulative and Aggressive caster is not so far fetched its why those spells exist on the very broad spell lists for Wizards and Sorcerers.
A caster who likes to focus on manipulation, or fireballs if their sweet talk fails.

Armor Training allowing the caster to cast in Light and eventually Medium armor without ASF would be very nice. The Advanced Learning aspect of allowing them to cherry pick off the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list under specific schools such as Evocation and Enchantment only or replace Enchantment with Illusions.

Something like that.

[Kennisiou]

In general, blasting with spells is not that strong compared to buffing and attacking or blasting with psionics. Giving a character that's already got good tools for attacking (sneak attack + misdirection/stealth spells to make it easier to get in for the strikes) the ability to also blast is a bit too much. Allowing it to sneak attack on spell damage in addition to its +int to damage would probably make it a little stronger -- it becomes a versatile skill-monkey sneaky caster guy that shows up out of nowhere and then fireballs a whole bunch of dudes and adds another bunch of d6s on top because SURPRISE. But, like, still only just makes it a good tier 3 class, not anything on par with sorceror or even Favored Soul.

[eggynack]

I just don't really get it. It feels like the idea is to take two divergent styles and mash them together. I think there would have to be some kinda reason why these classes are being combined, fluff-wise. I mean, mystic theurges make a bit more sense, because you're combining these two huge game objects to form a mediocre yet cohesive whole, while you're just kinda glomming these two minor classes into a big ol' ball. I'm not saying it couldn't work. You just need more justification than an illusionist with fireballs to fall back on.

[FinnDarkblade]

In general, blasting with spells is not that strong compared to buffing and attacking or blasting with psionics. Giving a character that's already got good tools for attacking (sneak attack + misdirection/stealth spells to make it easier to get in for the strikes) the ability to also blast is a bit too much. Allowing it to sneak attack on spell damage in addition to its +int to damage would probably make it a little stronger -- it becomes a versatile skill-monkey sneaky caster guy that shows up out of nowhere and then fireballs a whole bunch of dudes and adds another bunch of d6s on top because SURPRISE. But, like, still only just makes it a good tier 3 class, not anything on par with sorceror or even Favored Soul.

Beguiler doesn't have sneak attack, you're probably thinking Arcane Trickster or Unseen Seer.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

How is it hard to see this?

Have you know anyone like a Beguiler, someone who focuses on manipulation and the like? When the time for talking ends they have a very strong temper and yes if they could they would shoot fireballs or blast away.

Who gets sneak attacks in this discussion.

I was saying this more for the feel of a character idea the idea of a person who has a strong talent for using their silver tongue but a hot temper and would like to do more then try to charm the monster in combat.

Beguilers are great especially in the social aspects of a game. However if they are fighting monsters who are immune to mind controlling effects or out of their HD range they are severely restricted to backup bard-light.

So while they focus on three schools which are true in that they are very different could fit together. Those who are beguilers do have a temper when they fail, etc.

[Flickerdart]

Beguilers are great especially in the social aspects of a game. However if they are fighting monsters who are immune to mind controlling effects or out of their HD range they are severely restricted to backup bard-light.
Beguilers who don't want to fight don't have to fight. They have more than enough spells to escape or avoid confrontations, or if they absolutely must do battle, they can always wrangle something powerful to do them a favour.

If you want a character who's good at both subtle and direct magic, play a sorcerer, pick spells that fit the two themes, and use them whenever you feel like.

[eggynack]

I think my problem is that sneaky, manipulative, illusion guy who avoids conflict, but then sometimes loses his temper and throws fireballs, isn't exactly a character archetype I'm familiar with. I also feel like, if I really want the spell versatility to have more aggressive plans when my manipulation plans fail, then I'll just play a sorcerer or a wizard. Part of the appeal of these limited list casters, at least to me, is that they're limited. You trade off the ability to engage the enemy directly for manipulation, or you trade off the ability to manipulate for sheer aggression. Combining them is a flavor loss, rather than a flavor gain, and that's a bad direction to go. I mean, what's the name of this class anyway?