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jlousivy
2007-01-16, 12:53 AM
Another player in my party wants to see if i could make a ring of truestrike that activates as a swift action..... like 3 - 5 times a day.... how would i price that and what would the CL requirement be? (hopefully with the reasoning so i don't have to ask this type of quesiton again :-) )

Skyserpent
2007-01-16, 01:03 AM
Every few months we get one of these...

apparently by RAW it's actually priced WAAAAY too cheap... But I'm no homebrewer so I can't provide any advice beyond that.

But why would you even NEED something like that? Guarentee 3-5 hits every day... Well, aside from personal taste...

TheOOB
2007-01-16, 01:06 AM
Using true strike as a swift action is way to powerful, the spells only balancing factor is it's casting time. Heres a suggestion, make the ring take a standard action to activate, make it work 3-5 times a day(like you suggested), and make it only work if you have worn it at least 24 hours.

The problum with charge per day items is that if that charges run out you can just wear another one. So not only is swift true strike broken in its own right, without forcing them to continueously wear the ring theres nothing stopping them from carrying ten rings to get 30-50 uses per day.

Also, true strike theamatically fits as gloves or a helmet more, but it doesn't really matter. WotC never made guidelines on what EQ slots do what.

Talanic
2007-01-16, 01:09 AM
3-5 times per day, true strike, swift action. 75 thousand gold? Just throwing that out as about right for what true strike does.

Better than the question that we normally get, about putting True Strike as an always-on effect on a weapon, which by normal pricing would only be about 3,000 goldish, but by any logical interpretation exceeds two million gold in price.

Hario
2007-01-16, 01:10 AM
no please think of the catgirls before you make an item of game breakingness! especially as a swift action, btw there is a 2nd lvl spell that is what you want its a swift action but does +1 for every 3/CL not the cheese of +20

Mewtarthio
2007-01-16, 01:20 AM
no please think of the catgirls before you make an item of game breakingness!

Catgirls only die when you attempt to apply real-world physics to anything of the fantasy genre. Now, attempting to horrifically abuse and break the game triggers the portfolio sense of Pun-Pun, which is even worse (trust me, you don't want to draw his attention), and I suppose catgirls could very well die in the presence of His Scaly Deificness, but it's a little more indirect.

PinkysBrain
2007-01-16, 01:21 AM
Another player in my party wants to see if i could make a ring of truestrike that activates as a swift action..... like 3 - 5 times a day.... how would i price that and what would the CL requirement be? (hopefully with the reasoning so i don't have to ask this type of quesiton again :-) )
Command word item, quickened true strike, 3 times a day, slotted in an appropriate slot ... 5*9*1800*3/5 = 48600 using the DMG guidelines.

I'd allow it for that price, hardly game breaking ... a quickened true strike is just a 5th level spell like any other. A gish can simply buy a minor metamagic rod of quickening for 35K and do it 3x a day only casting first level spells (hell my artificer can do it all day long ... which I readily admit is slightly broken, not as broken as wraithstrike though).

Karsh
2007-01-16, 01:24 AM
Except that although the True Strike would be quickened, Command Word items still require a standard action to activate.

PinkysBrain
2007-01-16, 01:30 AM
I disagree the DMG says that (there are two conflicting entries in the DMG). Really though that is irrelevant ... custom magic items do and cost what the DM says they do and cost. Custom magic items are utterly and completely outside of the rules, they are completely by DM fiat.

oriong
2007-01-16, 01:32 AM
They aren't outside the rules at all, there are rules right there in the book for creating them.

Now, certainly the DM can always do as he wishes and in many cases he is correct to increase certain items above and beyond their standard prices (such as in the case of true strike) but it's not something outside of the existing rules.

PinkysBrain
2007-01-16, 01:41 AM
They aren't outside the rules at all, there are rules right there in the book for creating them.
They are guidelines for the DM . The DM is free to use them ad verbatim or to ignore them completely without ever invoking rule 0. Custom magic items are completely by DM fiat, just like custom spells.

jlousivy
2007-01-16, 01:43 AM
it's actually a fighter that's wanting this. basicly... he wants it so he can do a full-power attack with a longsword wielded in 2 hands and be pretty much gaurenteed to hit...
(he's far from being an optimal fighter, and he's probably just going straight fighter till the game ends.... I'm sure you could give him a ring of polymoph any object infinite times/day and he wouldn't abuse it...... much less use it save to transform himself into obscure creatures... or other party memebrs)

so 48,600 for a 3-5/day item? jeez..... he won't like that

PinkysBrain
2007-01-16, 01:47 AM
If you allow wraithstrike in your campaign a 3x a day item of wraithstrike would only cost 2*3*1800*3/5 = 6480 gp using the guidelines.

Seffbasilisk
2007-01-16, 01:47 AM
Command word item, quickened true strike, 3 times a day, slotted in an appropriate slot ... 5*9*1800*3/5 = 48600 using the DMG guidelines.


Instead of 1,800, multiply it by 2K. This avoids the 'Command Word' trap that you get when you want to have spells cast as a swift action from items. Once you catch that, it works out to: 54,000 for a 3/day swift activation of true-strike.

OR

90,000 for an unlimited/day truestrike as a swift action.

or just 1,800 for a command word, unlimited, truestrike as a standard action.

Emperor Tippy
2007-01-16, 01:59 AM
You don't even need to make it quickened. How use activated items are written you can make one that is "used" every time you attack. It instantly activates then. So for every attack to get true strike is just 2,000 gold (1*1*200). Make the activation "Every time I attack, activate true strike on me". Then even in a fighters full attack all 5 attacks get true strike. The only attack that ever misses out is the very first oen you make in the very first round.

And how something like that should really be priced is minor artifact level (at least).

3/day, Quickened True Strike for a a player who won't abuse it is prolly fine at about 20K. Just make sure that the item ahs a condition where know one else in the party can use it. Maybe make it cursed so that it can only be removed from his finger upon his death and if his hand/finger is removed he dies.

Matthew
2007-01-16, 07:59 AM
They are guidelines for the DM . The DM is free to use them ad verbatim or to ignore them completely without ever invoking rule 0. Custom magic items are completely by DM fiat, just like custom spells.

Yup, Pinky is exactly right.

Stephen_E
2007-01-16, 09:26 AM
Ok, aside from it been a valid DM call IMO that an item made with a quicked spell will create an effect as a swift action rather than the normal standard action. Note - Given the power level in doing so I'd always require them to pay the cost of getting the spell quickend, even if the spell been duplicated is normally swift anyway.

As for the brokeness of it. Keep in mind for 50,000gp you gan get a ring of spell storing which will store 1 quickened True Strike (which is cast as a swift action) which can be used as often as your arcane caster recharges it.

Regarding Wraith strike, you most definitely are best of getting it put into a Ring of spell storing.

Important point to note, wonderous items don't actually cast spells normally. They duplicate the effect of the spell put into them. This is a subtle but crucial difference.

Stephen

Mewtarthio
2007-01-16, 09:53 AM
As for the brokeness of it. Keep in mind for 50,000gp you gan get a ring of spell storing which will store 1 quickened True Strike (which is cast as a swift action) which can be used as often as your arcane caster recharges it.

Regarding Wraith strike, you most definitely are best of getting it put into a Ring of spell storing.

Caveat: Only one Quickened True Strike can be stored within a ring, effectively making this a 1/day item. In essence, you only get one extra use per day of Quickened True Strike.

Caveat: Only people capable of casting Quickened True Strike in the first place can use this ring.

Caveat: The minimum casting time for casting a spell from a ring of spell storing is one standard action, making the Quickened metamagic effectively worthless.

PinkysBrain
2007-01-16, 10:05 AM
Given the power level in doing so I'd always require them to pay the cost of getting the spell quickend, even if the spell been duplicated is normally swift anyway.
I disagree.

Getting access to 2nd level swift action spells by becoming a gish is no harder than getting access to 2nd level standard action spells, why should it have to be harder when you spend money rather than levels?

NEO|Phyte
2007-01-16, 10:25 AM
I disagree.

Getting access to 2nd level swift action spells by becoming a gish is no harder than getting access to 2nd level standard action spells, why should it have to be harder when you spend money rather than levels?
because items default to a standard action to activate? There's a reason you don't use scrolls of featherfall in emergency situations.

Person_Man
2007-01-16, 10:33 AM
Yeah, as Skyserpent mentioned this thread comes up once every couple of months, to the point where I just read it looking for new ways to pull off the same old combo:

Buy a Ring of Spell Storing and having a friendly party member cast Spectral Weapon (Spell Compedium) into it. It creates a shadow weapon of your choice that resolves attacks as touch attacks. Targets are entitled to a Will save to see if they notice that its an illusion (half damage). But it lasts 1 round per caster level.

Or you can take one level of pyrokineticist.

Or you can take the Deep Impact feet and use the crystal re-focusing trick.

Or you can take three levels of Druid and use a Flame Blade.

Or you can take three levels of Wizard for Wraithstrike.

Or you can take five levels of Assassin for Wraithstrike.

Or you can be a Monk with the Freezing the Lifeblood feat (Comp Warrior, Fort save or be paralyzed for 1d4+1 rounds).

Or they can buy a Brilliant Energy Weapon (though this isn't a touch attack, it's close). If you don't have that much money, be a Kensai.

PinkysBrain
2007-01-16, 02:11 PM
because items default to a standard action to activate?Circular reasoning.

NEO|Phyte
2007-01-16, 02:25 PM
Circular reasoning.
Huh, I could have sworn that the Item Creation Guidelines (yes, I know they are just that, guidelines) had a price adjustment for reducing the time needed to activate an item. Guess not. :smallredface:

Still, aside from use-activated items, activation time is a standard action, period. Use-activated item get an "unless stated otherwise" provision, so it can go any which way the item creator/DM allows. Since the item in question is not the standard continuous ring of TS as we normally get threads about, precisely how the ring would be 'used' is similarly unknown.

But enough of my ramblings, I'm supposed to be a productive Intern right now. :smallwink:

TheDarkOne
2007-01-16, 04:31 PM
First, there is no RAW for custum item creation, there are published guidelines. They aren't rules. Also, if you look on the wotc website, you can find an article about custum magic item creation that uses the ring of true strike as an example.

Stephen_E
2007-01-16, 05:05 PM
Caveat: Only one Quickened True Strike can be stored within a ring, effectively making this a 1/day item. In essence, you only get one extra use per day of Quickened True Strike.

Caveat: Only people capable of casting Quickened True Strike in the first place can use this ring.

Caveat: The minimum casting time for casting a spell from a ring of spell storing is one standard action, making the Quickened metamagic effectively worthless.

Your 2nd Caveat is wrong.

You don't need to be a spellcaster to use a ring of spell storing.

The 3rd point is correct. I missed the minimum activation time = 1 standard action.

There is an existing way of a non-caster casting a spell faster than a standard action. Use a weapon with spell storing. Use your worst attack 1st (best attack 1st is merely a default choice) and make a Power Attack touch attack against yourself. Bing - you now have True Strike, Wraith Strike, or Extended Wraithstrike on youself. The next attack/s gain the benifit of the chosen spell. You can do this once per combat, and after comabt your wizard recharges it.

Regarding having swift activating items, the DMG does talk about the rule been that activating an item yo create a spell effect must take as long as the original spell took to cast (with spell store weapons been a specific exception) so theorectically there isn't an actual rule to stop a quickened item, but if you allow it make sure they pay the extra cash for the +4 spell level and +8 CL. Don't accept any "but I'm using some class ability to cast the spell without the metamagic spell level adjustment so it'll cost the normal price".

PS. Re: your 1st Caveat. As I mentioned in my original post you can use this as often as you have someone cast the spell into it. There is no "once per day" restriction.

Stephen

Stephen_E
2007-01-16, 05:14 PM
Or you can take three levels of Druid and use a Flame Blade.



Note This doesn't allow Strength bonus damage. Some DM's interpret (correctly IMO) that Power Attack is Strength bonus damage.

Actually the reason given that it doesn't apply should probably apply equally to all effects that make your attacks touch attacks. In other words these effect should probably only be available when delivering precision damage (and suddenly Wraith Strike ceases to be broken, but stays an Assassins "Power Spell").

Stephen

Seffbasilisk
2007-01-16, 09:54 PM
Well...

For 3.5K could could THEORETICALLY enchant your weapon to cast truestrike on you each time you attack...

1x1x2,000 x1.5 (for adding another enchantment to a magic item)
Unfortunatly, that could be seen as you resolve a regular attack and the NEXT attack with the bonus. To fix this, you could always up the cost to the 5 x 9 x 2,000 x 1.5 for 135,000gp for a weapon that automatically gives itself a +20 insight bonus to attack each attack and ignores concealment.

Ramza00
2007-01-16, 10:06 PM
As a dm some of the item creation guidelines are kind screw up. An item of quicken true strike is a 5th lvl spell, I would compare its price to an itellligent item which can cast a 5th lvl spell 3/day or so.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/intelligentItems.htm

Stephen_E
2007-01-16, 10:21 PM
Well...

For 3.5K could could THEORETICALLY enchant your weapon to cast truestrike on you each time you attack...

1x1x2,000 x1.5 (for adding another enchantment to a magic item)
Unfortunatly, that could be seen as you resolve a regular attack and the NEXT attack with the bonus. To fix this, you could always up the cost to the 5 x 9 x 2,000 x 1.5 for 135,000gp for a weapon that automatically gives itself a +20 insight bonus to attack each attack and ignores concealment.

Keep in mind that Arms, Armour and Wonderous items don't actually cast a spell. They duplicate the effects. (Exception been those that store spells).
If you're duplicating the effect of a continous or use activated True Strike, you then go looking at the effects price, at which point you're looking at a 400,000+gp item, conservatively (Enhancement level squared 20x20, x 2000 base, /2 since you only get the bonus to hit and not damage, + Y for ignoring conceal - which includes a variety of things such as Blink and Invisibility).

Stephen

MrCab
2007-01-16, 11:16 PM
Keep in mind that Arms, Armour and Wonderous items don't actually cast a spell. They duplicate the effects. (Exception been those that store spells).
If you're duplicating the effect of a continous or use activated True Strike, you then go looking at the effects price, at which point you're looking at a 400,000+gp item, conservatively (Enhancement level squared 20x20, x 2000 base, /2 since you only get the bonus to hit and not damage, + Y for ignoring conceal - which includes a variety of things such as Blink and Invisibility).

I was waiting for that post. I know that's what I would hear if I asked any of my DM's this.

Your player's item of True Strike x times a day has an effect bonus of 20 factored into it. Probably 1000 (for the 2000 / 2 from above) * 20^2 * (3/5 for 3 charges a day) = 240,000. It's basically 80,000 GP per use of this item, or 1,600,000 for a continuous use one. That said, he can have fun finding a place where he can get in 1600 days of uninterupted crafting to get his ring, because you KNOW that item isn't sitting on a shelf for sale. If it was, the villain would have stolen it by now.

Hurlbut
2007-01-16, 11:32 PM
Eh if it were in the IH setting, a drawback would be assigned to it, cheap price or not. SOmething like getting a -20 penalty on your next attack roll AFTER the attack with True Strike. Or perhap the same penalty to apply to all of your attacks during your next round after you used True Strike.

PinkysBrain
2007-01-16, 11:39 PM
Huh, I could have sworn that the Item Creation Guidelines (yes, I know they are just that, guidelines) had a price adjustment for reducing the time needed to activate an item.
There is a bit in the DMG that you can use quicken when putting a spell in an item so you can use it as a free action (nowadays a swift action). The price adjustment is a natural side effect of the increase in spell level.