Minor/Major Creation

[LordAshenshield]

Ok so someone is gonna be using this spell in our next session, they told me so. But I am not sure if this would work the way they want.

They read the spell and they decided they would use Major Creation to create a large block of Mithral or Adamantine and then using Fabricate create ingots of that substance and sell them to make money for the group.

But can Major Creation or Minor Creation so such a thing?
What can those spells do for example. The examples shown are only for minerals or what not can it do anything else?

[Totema]

The difficulty here is that adamantine and mithral are (usually) considered rare metals. As the spell describes, they would dissipate in a matter of seconds, minutes at best.

[LordAshenshield]

1 Round per Level so yeah probably seconds. I was curious about that too.
So is there any way to make the things last?

Or should he do something like precious metals (Gold or whatever) 20 mins/Level

[cakellene]

1 Round per Level so yeah probably seconds. I was curious about that too.
So is there any way to make the things last?

Or should he do something like precious metals (Gold or whatever) 20 mins/Level

He would still have to sell it very quickly. If he does manage to sell it, imagine response from vendor when it vanishes. I would think he would send bounty hunters, or it might be large enough case of fraud to draw the attention of an Inevitable.

[LordAshenshield]

So no way to make things last for good then? I understand that goes against the point of the spell but I was curious because this would be money for the group and well I have my eyes set on some nice new magic items.

True enough, it might be a fun hook for the DM to work on, no idea what the Inevitable would be involved in this, its not exactly a natural law being violated can you explain further?

[cakellene]

There is True Creation, an 8th level Creation domain spell that creates permanent items.

[Phelix-Mu]

No, there is no economical way to produce adamantine/mithral and then make money selling it honestly. True creation (there is a magical and a psionic version, Spell Compendium and Expanded Psionics Handbook, respectively) can make stuff, but the cost is prohibitive.

The most obvious ways to make something for nothing are wall of stone/iron, and then fabricate on those things to make stuff. Note, Craft ranks will be necessary for anything complex (or of significant value). Also note, one single casting of a wall spell creates a stupendous amount of material, so it's likely that raw stone or iron is of negligible value in any place that has spellcasters of a level able to cast those spells.

There is a minor creation trick involving poison fabrication, but I'm not 100% clear on the details, and it might not be permanent. My recollection is there is a plant poison that can sell for a small mint-worth of coin, and it counts as vegetable matter, apparently.

[cakellene]

I found a forum post talking about making vegetable matter permanent at high eniugh caster level with Major Creation, but failing to see anything in the spell description to verify. Were they talking out of their ass?

[Phelix-Mu]

Sounds like rubbish. The spell itself is pretty straightforward.

[LordAshenshield]

We are no where near spells of 8th spell level yet.
Oh well I will tell him before the DM murders him for trying to muck up the game.

Thanks folks.

BTW use are those spells if they disappear in minutes?

[cakellene]

Playing tricks on NPCs?

[LordAshenshield]

Is that all?

Btw I always let my friends who play casters and umd folks do this but.

Can a 1rst level character with a UMD class skill cast a spell off a scroll of any level?
Like if he found a scroll of say Fireball a 3rd level spell could he cast it if he rolled the UMD check?

[Kelb_Panthera]

We are no where near spells of 8th spell level yet.
Oh well I will tell him before the DM murders him for trying to muck up the game.

Thanks folks.

BTW use are those spells if they disappear in minutes?

With a good craft modifier the greater version can be used to create useful structures and objects like a quick camouflage blind or a cart for hauling treasure. Battering ram, ladder, wooden lock-box, crow bar, rope, firewood; there're a million and one things you could use major creation for with a bit of creativity.

Minor creation's a bit less useful because of its shorter duration but some of the above items could be used to their full effect in that short a time.

[icefractal]

Best way to make money off Minor (or Major) Creation is making wine, rare food items / spices, and drugs. These can all fall under vegetable matter, sell for a high price, and if you serve them in a bar/restaurant/lounge rather than letting people take them home, they will have already been ingested and digested by the time they vanish.

Most potent for your own usage is probably poisons, as you can create (normally very expensive) Black Lotus poison for almost free with Minor Creation, and a wide variety with Major Creation. These aren't good for selling though, because most buyers would wait longer than ~20 hours before using them, and you really don't want a bunch of pissed off assassins.

Now if you told the buyer up-front that it was conjured, some would probably prefer that, as it eliminates the evidence after the fact. However, knowing that it cost you very little, they would not likely want to pay the standard price.

Another fun trick, for equipping your own followers, is Minor Creation to make masterwork ironwood arms and armor. Again, not good for selling though.

[Drachasor]

Now if you told the buyer up-front that it was conjured, some would probably prefer that, as it eliminates the evidence after the fact. However, knowing that it cost you very little, they would not likely want to pay the standard price.

How much it costs you isn't relevant for a valuable service like that. Evidence-less murder is certainly worth a high price.

[LordAshenshield]

Hmm good point will have to suggest that, we do have an assassin mission coming up soon too.

Can anyone tell me the answer to my earlier question about how the UMD works with spells of a higher level.

Because the Wall of Iron or Salt or something might be something we can use in the short term.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hmm good point will have to suggest that, we do have an assassin mission coming up soon too.

Can anyone tell me the answer to my earlier question about how the UMD works with spells of a higher level.

Because the Wall of Iron or Salt or something might be something we can use in the short term.

What question about UMD?

If you'll forgive my presumption, I'd bet you're asking about how UMD interacts with scrolls? In that case it's dc 25 + spell level (30 for wall of stone, IIRC) and the spell is cast as though by a caster with the minimum caster level and key ability necessary to cast it (cl 9 and as though the caster's int or cha is 15 for wall of stone).

[LordAshenshield]

That was pretty much my question if someone with a level lower could. I may just have him purchase a wall of Stone or Iron and fabricate that into useful things to sell to make fast cash.

Also would anyone know the weight and cost of an Iron Ingot or something of that sort.
My character is kind of the face and with a Major Creation to make a wagon to haul them a wagon full of iron ingots to sell to local smiths and other metal workers might make us a bit of cash.

[hymer]

If you'll forgive my presumption, I'd bet you're asking about how UMD interacts with scrolls? In that case it's dc 25 + spell level (30 for wall of stone, IIRC) and the spell is cast as though by a caster with the minimum caster level and key ability necessary to cast it (cl 9 and as though the caster's int or cha is 15 for wall of stone).

Eh? Isn't it 20 + caster level of the scroll?


I may just have him purchase a wall of Stone or Iron and fabricate that into useful things to sell to make fast cash.

DM: "Where are you when you're doing this?"
DM as guild representative: "Excuse me, do you have a guild license for creating or importing stoves, sir?"
DM as merchant: "What am I gonna do with sixteen metric tons of hinges? I'll take twenty hinges, if they're cheap enough."
DM as local sage: "Mrm, yes, there was a plague of rust monsters in the year of the rat, yes... Brought on by wizards meddling with the balance of iron, it was."
DM: "There's this thing called Wealth by Level, which you've shattered. It means there will be no loot or treasure for you guys in the foreseeable future."


Also would anyone know the weight and cost of an Iron Ingot or something of that sort.
My character is kind of the face and with a Major Creation to make a wagon to haul them a wagon full of iron ingots to sell to local smiths and other metal workers might make us a bit of cash.

In a world where people make iron ingots by the snapping of fingers, the price will be negligible. Otherwise it's 1sp per pound (PHB p. 112). Normally you can sell things at half price. I don't know how much the local smith really needs, though. A couple of hundred lbs in stock, maybe? A ton if we're aiming high? A ton should net you 110gp, if the smith has that much cash lying around. That's 44 suits of full plate, by the way.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Eh? Isn't it 20 + caster level of the scroll?

Ah, you are correct sir. The dc I gave is for deciphering the scroll, not activating it. My mistake.

[Psyren]

Minor/Major Creation -> Fabricate is impossible. Those two creation spells explicitly state that what you make can't be used as a material component, and the material component of Fabricate is the material itself.

You can do True Creation -> Fabricate... but in that case you may as well just make whatever you were trying to Fabricate in the first place.

[Vortenger]

BTW use are those spells if they disappear in minutes?

Need the Electrum Key of Jagged Teeth to open that door? Turn to the wizard and say, "Hey, make me a key. That key." Done. Need an adamintine greatsword to break down the wall? Done. Have a monster battle coming up where the monster is immune to everything but cold iron? Problem Solved.

Minor and major creation let you make 'The Thing' you need, when you need it. There's no need to be MacGuyver, just make the right tool for the right job. The craft check is trivially easy for most items.

[cakellene]

On the selling for half price, don't they say trade items (such as ingots) are sold for full value?

[cakellene]

Need the Electrum Key of Jagged Teeth to open that door? Turn to the wizard and say, "Hey, make me a key. That key." Done. Need an adamintine greatsword to break down the wall? Done. Have a monster battle coming up where the monster is immune to everything but cold iron? Problem Solved.

Minor and major creation let you make 'The Thing' you need, when you need it. There's no need to be MacGuyver, just make the right tool for the right job. The craft check is trivially easy for most items.

Minor detail, cold iron weapons can't be created this way. The spell explicitly prohibits it.

[Draken]

The best way to make permanent metals would be to combine Wall of Iron and Polymorph Any Object, for the record.

Even by the most restrictive reading of PAO's factors, you would still get the +9 needed to make it permanent.

Disclaimer: A successful Dispel Magic would turn all of your fancy adamantine/mithril into iron once again.

[hymer]

On the selling for half price, don't they say trade items (such as ingots) are sold for full value?

Yeah, you're right. My bad.

[Mr Adventurer]

In my game, we were on a mountain when we saw a Blood snow storm heading our way. So the Druid popped down his pit from his Robe of Useful Items, and I created a wooden trapdoor with Minor Creation, and we waited it out.

After the storm passed, we used the wooden trapdoor as a sled to carry the Druid's animal companion.

[LordAshenshield]

Interesting use of this trick and spell.

Ok so this guy is using a creature race that has it as a 1/day power. His spell casting class will never get this spell on his spell list because he went beguiler because he wanted the party face spells.

Should he just go Wizard or Sorcerer to get more useful spells?

[unseenmage]

Create Water (several times) + Water to Acid from Stormwrack. Creates a ridiculous volume of acid. Sells for enough even if you halve the normal sale price for going wholesale.

And in the D&D world flasks of Acid are a consumable so it's much less likely you're going to crash an economy.

Another fun pair of spells is Elation and Distilled Joy from the Book of Exalted Deeds. Makes Ambrosia, another consumable. Good for craft xp, CL boost, or just giving you happy thoughts.

And none of these spells are particularly high level either. Put them all into one Spell Turret (DMG2), Spellsong Nightingale (web) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070115a) or Runic Guardian (MM2) and watch the funds roll in.

(WARNING, putting these spells into these items/Constructs will wreck WBL.)

[Undead Pebble]

The best way to make permanent metals would be to combine Wall of Iron and Polymorph Any Object, for the record.

Even by the most restrictive reading of PAO's factors, you would still get the +9 needed to make it permanent.

Disclaimer: A successful Dispel Magic would turn all of your fancy adamantine/mithril into iron once again.


This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine.

You cannot polymorph any object into materials with intrinsic value, it says so in the spell description. So gold/adamantine/copper/silver/etc are out.