PF Advanced Guide Playtest: Has the Arcanist made the Sorcerer Obsolete?

[Katana1515]

High all!

I am signed up for this playtest and I am in the process of putting some games together to test out the various new classes Paizo has put on offer here. In one such game the group will contain both an Arcanist and a Sorcerer, since that seems to be the class the Arcanist lies closest too. The problem I am experiencing is finding pretty much anything the Sorc can do that the arcanist can't do better. This is quite dispiriting for the Sorcerer player.

It seems that the Arcanist has both a better spellcasting mechanic and now with its funky exploits every other level, better class features than the Sorc. I really like the bloodline mechanics introduced in pathfinder, the Sorcerers total lack of class features in 3.5 was a joke. but the Arcanists exploits seem to be both more flexible, customisable and powerful than even the most powerful bloodlines.

Is their something I have missed? or have the Pathfinder team decided that its time for the sorcerer to be retired and replaced? I hope not because I love playing sorcerers! What advantages (apart from that one extra spell per spell level which really doesnt seem to cut the mustard) does the sorcerer have?

Thanks for all replies

Final note: I am aware that their is a particular thread for AGPT stuff but over the course of the last few pages it seems to have become something of an angry place. plus I wanted to focus particulary on the Arcanist/Sorcerer Issue so I thought a new thread might be for the best.

[Zanos]

The arcanist's casting mechanic and class features make it superior to the sorcerer in nearly all ways, and superior to the Wizard in many, many ways. You aren't missing anything.

There are a few things they don't have going for them:

Can usually only prepare one of their highest level spells, making their top level slots unversatile.
Lower base spell slots and lack of ability to specialize, etc. means their spells per day are rather low
No alternate FCB yet

On a single given day an arcanist has the same number of spells "known" as a sorcerer, but less slots to cast them with. Of course, they can also completely change all their spells known the next day and have amazing class features.

[Talya]

this would irritate me. That said, the last thing PF needs is more base classes. what it needs is synergistic ways to multiclass it's existing ones.

And more/better PRCs!

[andreww]

What build is the sorcerer using? If you aren't taking advantage of the Human extra spells known FCB then the Sorcerer will compare very unfavourably to the Arcanist.

[Talya]

What build is the sorcerer using? If you aren't taking advantage of the Human extra spells known FCB then the Sorcerer will compare very unfavourably to the Arcanist.

Half Elf has access to the human extra spells bonus, plus paragon surge + expanded arcana. And a bonus feat, since most sorcerers need skill focus anyway for eldritch heritage.

[Psyren]

The Sorcerer has several key advantages that are not being considered:

- Spells/day: The sorcerer is still king of the roost here. An Arcanist has the same spells/day as a generalist wizard or domainless druid, i.e. the lowest of any full caster progression. This number will be released further by the need to burn slots to refill their arcane reservoir.

- Full bloodline progression: Though Arcanists can access a sorcerer bloodline, unaugmented they only gain the arcana and 1st-level power. To gain more (temporarily) they must burn points from their reservoir yet again, which has a high opportunity cost, low duration and low uses/day.

- MADness: related to the above, Arcanists have reservoir abilities with saving throw DCs based on Cha. This includes any bloodlines they gain access to using the above ability. Sorcerers meanwhile base everything on Cha - spells and bloodline abilities alike. This allows them to benefit from bloodline powers whose save DCs or uses/day are based on Cha.

- Bloodline feats: The sorcerer gets them, the Arcanist does not.

- Bloodline spells: The sorcerer gets them automatically. The arcanist can learn them but they must be found and scribed.

Do I think the Arcanist is weaker? No, in the right hands/campaigns these weaknesses can be strengths, or at least not matter as much. But is the Arcanist strictly better in every respect? The answer is clearly no. It depends on the players, the campaign, the other party members and the DM - as it should.

[Stux]

The Arcanist is probably stronger, but I wouldn't say it obsoleted the Sorcerer. On top of the points Psyren has made, which are very valid, the Sorcerer also has a fair bit less book keeping. While us optimisers may scoff at that as a serious consideration, it is important for newer players (or DMs for that matter) to have the option to play a caster without too much book keeping.

However, do we really need 3 full progression arcane casters? I would say probably not, especially with it being PF and so archetypes being a thing. The differences are essentially mechanical tweaks - variations on a theme. The fluff differences are equally marginal. To me it feels like "hey, this is a way we could maybe have done an arcane caster" than "hey, this is a brand new mechanical niche and character concept that wasn't fulfilled adequately previously".

But I suppose that is a different argument.

[stack]

Nitpick - This actually is the fourth full arcane caster; wizard, sorcerer, and witch being the others. Though it is the third off the same list.

[Stux]

Nitpick - This actually is the fourth full arcane caster; wizard, sorcerer, and witch being the others. Though it is the third off the same list.

Oh I always forget about the Witch. As you say, different list though and plays in a very different way.

[Hytheter]

And a bonus feat, since most sorcerers need skill focus anyway for eldritch heritage.

Wait, do why do Sorcerers take Eldritch Heritage? Is spending 2-4 feats for three extra powers actually worthwhile?

[Talya]

Wait, do why do Sorcerers take Eldritch Heritage? Is spending 2-4 feats for three extra powers actually worthwhile?

For a half-elf in a game reaching higher levels?

Absolutely.

Rationale: You pick any bloodline you want as your primary bloodline, except arcane.

You take Eldritch Heritage - Arcane Bloodline (probably for the bonded item - a ring you can improve as if you had the Forge Ring feat, but if you really like familiars, it's great there, too.) This is great from level 1, giving you access to a higher level item creation feat for much cheaper bonuses.

You never need to grab a second power permanently. Instead you paragon surge and take the Improved Eldritch Heritage - New Arcana starting at 15th level to grab two spells of the highest level you can cast, which is strictly better than Expanded Arcana.

of course, if you want to, some of the other arcane bloodline powers are great for a sorcerer.

[Hytheter]

I was under the impression most Sorcerers just took Arcane Bloodline from the get go...

[Talya]

The best benefits from Arcane Bloodline are the bloodline powers, although the arcana and spells aren't necessarily BAD.

The thing is, the other bloodlines have a bunch of neat flavor, and some of them are mechanically pretty good, too. With neat spells AND great bloodline arcana and such. But I can get everything out of Arcane bloodline that I want with eldritch heritage feats, a half-elf can automatically qualify with their bonus skill focus, and technically, the New Arcana power is better when taken as a bloodline feat, since you get higher level spells with it. The longer you wait, the better it gets. If you take it at level 19 (assuming you know your game will get that high), it's worth 3 level 9 spells. When taken with Paragon Surge, it's even flexible.

Besides, it's not like there's a dearth of feats in Pathfinder. By level 13, you're two feats ahead of where you were in 3.5 -- and sorcerers get bonus feats on top of that.

[grarrrg]

You never need to grab a second power permanently. Instead you paragon surge and take the Improved Eldritch Heritage - New Arcana starting at 15th level to grab two spells of the highest level you can cast, which is strictly better than Expanded Arcana.

Actually, for a Sorcerer, this isn't much better than just taking "Expanded Arcana" instead of Improved Eldritch Heritage.

Expanded will get you 1 'highest' spell, or 2 lessors.
Imp.EH will (eventually) get you up to 3 'highest' spells.

Yeah, the Arcane bond is pretty handy and all, but I don't see Heritage > Arcane Bloodline as a primary tactic for Sorcerers.

[Talya]

I don't see a reason why you wouldn't use that tactic, especially since you're already a half-elf for paragon surge and getting a free skill focus. Plus that bonded item gets you an extra spell slot of your highest level, permanently.

Pathfinder characters get a lot of feats, but there are few really useful, "game changing" feats. Eldritch Heritage is one of them.

[Craft (Cheese)]

By the way, Arcanist benefits from Paragon Surge even more than a Sorcerer can. So there's that.

[Talya]

By the way, Arcanist benefits from Paragon Surge even more than a Sorcerer can. So there's that.


I'd actually argue that at 19th level, the half-elf sorcerer should probably take new arcana permanently and just grab 3 level nine spells, and revert to using Expanded Arcana for the rare case they need a spell they don't have.

[Zanos]

By the way, Arcanist benefits from Paragon Surge even more than a Sorcerer can. So there's that.
How's that?

[Talya]

Don't know much about the Arcanist, but I'm not even convinced Sorcerer hasn't been bumped up to tier 1 in Pathfinder.

There are simply so many ways for sorcerers to gain extra spells known, even without Paragon Surge, and Pathfinder has a vastly smaller spell list than 3.5... to the point that a sorcerer can easily get every single spell they'd ever want, and several they don't.

Favored Class bonuses, Expanded Arcana, New Arcana, Ring of Spell Knowledge (and you can put I, II, III and IV on a single ring - and access other classes' spell lists with them), staves...I know I'm missing some here. Not to mention the bloodline spells right from the start. Without extra feats, that's as many as 33 more spells known of levels 1-9 over a 3.5 sorcerer (more if you include cantrips). With feats, the sky is really the limit.

[The Random NPC]

By the way, Arcanist benefits from Paragon Surge even more than a Sorcerer can. So there's that.

No they can't, for the same reason that other prepared casters can't. You can add a spell know, but until you prepare it, you can't cast it. Unless I missed an ability that lets them prepare spells in a few minutes.


Don't know much about the Arcanist, but I'm not even convinced Sorcerer hasn't been bumped up to tier 1 in Pathfinder.

There are simply so many ways for sorcerers to gain extra spells known, even without Paragon Surge, and Pathfinder has a vastly smaller spell list than 3.5... to the point that a sorcerer can easily get every single spell they'd ever want, and several they don't.

Favored Class bonuses, Expanded Arcana, New Arcana, Ring of Spell Knowledge (and you can put I, II, III and IV on a single ring - and access other classes' spell lists with them), staves...I know I'm missing some here. Not to mention the bloodline spells right from the start. Without extra feats, that's as many as 33 more spells known of levels 1-9 over a 3.5 sorcerer (more if you include cantrips). With feats, the sky is really the limit.

Don't forget Pages of Spell Knowledge and Mnemonic Vests.

[Stux]

You can add a spell know, but until you prepare it, you can't cast it. Unless I missed an ability that lets them prepare spells in a few minutes.

Actually, from the CRB:


When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, he can repeat the preparation process as often as he likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. He cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because he has cast a spell in the meantime. That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if the wizard prepares more than one-quarter of his spells.

[Talya]

Actually, from the CRB:

Expanded Arcana doesn't work for wizards, unless they have a really bad multiclass combo.

[Craft (Cheese)]

No they can't, for the same reason that other prepared casters can't. You can add a spell know, but until you prepare it, you can't cast it. Unless I missed an ability that lets them prepare spells in a few minutes.

Under "Spells":


Feats and other effects that modify the number of spells known by a spellcaster affect the number of spells the arcanist can prepare.

They can take Expanded Arcana to add to their spells prepared. Hence, they can use paragon surge.

[Psyren]

Yeah, it increases the number you can prepare - but you still have to actually sit down and prepare them, which takes 15min. minimum to an hour, a peaceful environment free from inclement weather etc.

PS does last min./level, so this is certainly possible, but not until higher levels.

[Stux]

Also from a very strict RAW reading the passage I quoted only applies to Wizards.

[Talya]

They can take Expanded Arcana to add to their spells prepared. Hence, they can use paragon surge.

I am not familiar with the Arcanist's spells known mechanic.


Special: You can only take this feat if you possess levels in a class whose spellcasting relies on a limited list of spells known, such as the bard, oracle, and sorcerer. You can gain Expanded Arcana multiple times.

Do they qualify based on this?

[Stux]

Looks like it would benefit them but they aren't allowed to take it.

[Craft (Cheese)]

I am not familiar with the Arcanist's spells known mechanic.

Do they qualify based on this?

The RAW is murky, but the RAI seems to be that an arcanist's current spells prepared list is equivalent to a sorcerer's spells known list for the purposes of how it interacts with items, feats, and other effects. I believe this because, by strict RAW, there's nothing in the game that would qualify as modifying an arcanist's spells prepared, hence there would be no need for that line at all: The problem is one of inconsistent terminology. It's dysfunctional RAW at the very least, though AFAIK Jason hasn't commented on the problem whenever it's been brought up in the board.

[Psyren]

So either they can't obtain it at all; or they can, but can't actually use it once they get it; or they can obtain and use it, but they have to wait until they can get the spell to last 15 minutes (or more) and then find a place to veg out for that period of time mid-adventure.

I'm not too worried about this either way.

[Raven777]

I am not familiar with the Arcanist's spells known mechanic.



Do they qualify based on this?

Nope, since they can Scribe any number of spells they like in their spell book.

Anyway, I think the Arcanist is cool, but I don't believe it to obsolete the Sorcerer any more than a Wizard already can. The big advantage it has, same as the Wizard, is obviously being able to tailor its daily spell outfit to specific situations with some foreknowledge. On the other hand, a Sorcerer with a good spell selection shouldn't have problems either. Especially once you factor in things like the Human FCB or Paragon Surge. And contrary to the Wizard, the Arcanist and Sorcerer share a bench in the "1 spell level behind" train.

[Coidzor]

- Full bloodline progression: Though Arcanists can access a sorcerer bloodline, unaugmented they only gain the arcana and 1st-level power. To gain more (temporarily) they must burn points from their reservoir yet again, which has a high opportunity cost, low duration and low

Seems like you got cut off there.

[Psyren]

Seems like you got cut off there.

Thanks, fixed

[andreww]

- Spells/day: The sorcerer is still king of the roost here. An Arcanist has the same spells/day as a generalist wizard or domainless druid, i.e. the lowest of any full caster progression. This number will be released further by the need to burn slots to refill their arcane reservoir.
This is only really relevant at lower levels. After about level 8 you are unlikely to run out of spells.


- Full bloodline progression: Though Arcanists can access a sorcerer bloodline, unaugmented they only gain the arcana and 1st-level power. To gain more (temporarily) they must burn points from their reservoir yet again, which has a high opportunity cost, low duration and low uses/day.
Most of the bloodline abilities are tosh, the real benefit comes from the Arcana which you get as the Arcanist.


- MADness: related to the above, Arcanists have reservoir abilities with saving throw DCs based on Cha. This includes any bloodlines they gain access to using the above ability. Sorcerers meanwhile base everything on Cha - spells and bloodline abilities alike. This allows them to benefit from bloodline powers whose save DCs or uses/day are based on Cha.
None of the abilities which use Charisma justify taking Charisma as a stat in anything other than very high point games. All of the blasts are awful. You might get some use out of it if there is a level 1 bloodline or school power that you want to use lots but its almost certainly not worth the points when it adds next to nothing else.


- Bloodline feats: The sorcerer gets them, the Arcanist does not.
The sorcerer gets three feats over his career. The Acanist gets three from exploits and with a much better choice as they are not limited to the generally terrible bloodline lists.

[andreww]

Don't know much about the Arcanist, but I'm not even convinced Sorcerer hasn't been bumped up to tier 1 in Pathfinder.

There are simply so many ways for sorcerers to gain extra spells known, even without Paragon Surge, and Pathfinder has a vastly smaller spell list than 3.5... to the point that a sorcerer can easily get every single spell they'd ever want, and several they don't.

Favored Class bonuses, Expanded Arcana, New Arcana, Ring of Spell Knowledge (and you can put I, II, III and IV on a single ring - and access other classes' spell lists with them), staves...I know I'm missing some here. Not to mention the bloodline spells right from the start. Without extra feats, that's as many as 33 more spells known of levels 1-9 over a 3.5 sorcerer (more if you include cantrips). With feats, the sky is really the limit.
Sorcerers should be going Arcane from the start for one very good reason, lower casting time metamagic spells. From level 16 you get the full benefit using the Robe of Arcane Heritage. You also want School Power as soon as it becomes available rather than having to wait until 17th. Paragon Surge is much more easily handled using Expanded Arcana. None of the other bloodlines really come close to doing what Arcane does.

Infernal and Fey are decent for adding to DC's but you get half that benefit anyway from Arcane when you add metamagic to your spells, which you should be doing. Arcane also opens up the option of Sage for Int based casting.

Honestly I have never really seen the need for Eldritch Heritage as a sorcerer as bloodline powers are largely a mish mash of awful touch attacks, weak blasts or minor benefits.

[andreww]

By the way, Arcanist benefits from Paragon Surge even more than a Sorcerer can. So there's that.
I am not seeing how. Both can gain spontaneous access to their entire spell list. The effect is the same. Sorcerers do it with Expanded Arcana, Arcanists, Wizards, Clerics, Druids, Witches etc do it with Preferred Spell (must have Heighten as well).

[Psyren]

This is only really relevant at lower levels. After about level 8 you are unlikely to run out of spells.

Perhaps not, but your top-level spells (i.e. the ones that matter most) will always be at a premium. It's not necessarily about running out of all your spells, so much as it is running out of the truly good ones.



Most of the bloodline abilities are tosh, the real benefit comes from the Arcana which you get as the Arcanist.

Whereas many bloodline powers are quite good. An advantage is an advantage.



None of the abilities which use Charisma justify taking Charisma as a stat in anything other than very high point games. All of the blasts are awful. You might get some use out of it if there is a level 1 bloodline or school power that you want to use lots but its almost certainly not worth the points when it adds next to nothing else.

You'll likely be burning points all the time anyway just to boost the CL/DC of all your spells.



The sorcerer gets three feats over his career. The Acanist gets three from exploits and with a much better choice as they are not limited to the generally terrible bloodline lists.

The Sorcerer gets his for free though - he doesn't have to delay or forego any aspects of his bloodline to attain them.

[Talya]

Sorcerers should be going Arcane from the start for one very good reason, lower casting time metamagic spells.

If you want that (I don't tend to load up on a lot of metamagic feats, just one or two I like), and have never had a problem using a full round action to cast a spell anyway. You still get your 5' step. It's not like they're summoning spells which take an entire round to cast...) it's still available through Eldritch Heritage.


Infernal and Fey are decent for adding to DC's but you get half that benefit anyway from Arcane when you add metamagic to your spells, which you should be doing. Arcane also opens up the option of Sage for Int based casting.

Honestly I have never really seen the need for Eldritch Heritage as a sorcerer as bloodline powers are largely a mish mash of awful touch attacks, weak blasts or minor benefits.

The bloodline powers themselves were often poorly implemented. One advantage of Eldritch Heritage though, is you can pick and choose the bloodline powers you want, instead of getting the full suit of them (except for the first one.)

In this respect it's a little bit more like an Oracle Mystery (which is wholely superior to sorcerer bloodlines.)

[Reinkai]

Yeah, it increases the number you can prepare - but you still have to actually sit down and prepare them, which takes 15min. minimum to an hour, a peaceful environment free from inclement weather etc.

PS does last min./level, so this is certainly possible, but not until higher levels.

Is the wizard Fast Learning the only way to reduce prep time? Could've sworn there was another option to do that.

[CombatOwl]

Also worth noting; the arcanist is not a spontaneous caster, meaning that pages of spell knowledge don't work. While the arcanist core casting mechanic replicates this to a limited degree, a sorcerer prepared with pages of spell knowledge will still have more spells available at any given moment (especially if they're a human sorcerer). Not only more spell slots, but more spells known.

This may seem minor, but metamagic sorcerers can already pretty much do whatever they need to do even with their restricted spell lists. With pages of spell knowledge and the human favored class bonus, they usually have better options at any given moment than wizards and other prepared casters.

They are also unable to cast lower level spells with a higher level spell slot on-the-fly meaning that under many circumstances the arcanist may actually run out of the slots they need for a particular useful spell. Well, not without burning a feat on heighten spell anyway.

[andreww]

Whereas many bloodline powers are quite good. An advantage is an advantage.
Not really true. Many of the Bloodline Arcana are good. The large majority of the Bloodline powers are terrible with only a small number of standout ones. Just sticking to the CRB we get:

Aberrant - mass of pointless rays, melee stuff, SR which is more of a hindrance than a help and a minor magic item ability

Abyssal - claws and a strength boost! Some very minor resistances. An actual decent ability with Added Summonings but not worth sinking 4 feats into when summoning already demands 3 or so.

Arcane - probably the only bloodline with decent abilities each time you get a new one

Celestial - blast, minor resistance, short duration fly which you have had for 3 levels, 1/day reroll, again not worth 4 feats

Destined - bonuses during surprise rounds, 1-2 rerolls, avoid death from HP damage (not the greatest danger at level 15 and the destiny finger. Do you enjoy being your archers buff toy?

Draconic - more pointless claws and minor resistances, a pointless breath weapon doing the same damage you have been doing since level 6 and wings at 15 when you have probably had overland flight since 10th (or should have if you went arcane)

Elemental - more rays which become obsolete after level 3, minor resistances, terrible blast effects which will be beaten by your actual spells and a movement power you can duplicate with elemental body I (which you should have)

Fey - the arcana is strong but otherwise meh. Another touch attack, woodland ****ing stride, invisibility for 1 round/level at level 9. If you were arcane you would have been casting this for 1 minute/level since level 5. Fey Magic is strong but again not worth 4 feats.

Infernal - strong arcana but we have seen this combo of touch attack, resistance, blast and wings before. Not worth bothering with.

Undead - touch attack, resistances, weird aoe effect and incorporeality. Look an ability we get at 15 which we haven't had access to for the last 5 levels. Shame the rest of the package is ****.



The Sorcerer gets his for free though - he doesn't have to delay or forego any aspects of his bloodline to attain them.
He gets them at level 7 and only gets 3. The Arcanist gets 10 exploits and have a look at them. You can immediately discount all of the blasts as being ****. Of the rest the school and bloodline ones are strong contenders as is potent magic but I definitely want the metamagic one before 11 to grab greater metamagic.

Also I get to be far better than the sorcerer at metamagic whether it is through double dipping reducers or far easier access to reduced casting time (with the exception of arcane at 16+).

[andreww]

If you want that (I don't tend to load up on a lot of metamagic feats, just one or two I like), and have never had a problem using a full round action to cast a spell anyway. You still get your 5' step. It's not like they're summoning spells which take an entire round to cast...) it's still available through Eldritch Heritage.
I consider persistent, dazing and quicken to be virtually non negotiable and reach to be near mandatory at higher level to engage from as far away as possible. You cannot get the permanent removal of the casting time penalty through eldritch heritage as it is part of the level 20 captstone.


The bloodline powers themselves were often poorly implemented. One advantage of Eldritch Heritage though, is you can pick and choose the bloodline powers you want, instead of getting the full suit of them (except for the first one.)

In this respect it's a little bit more like an Oracle Mystery (which is wholely superior to sorcerer bloodlines.)
You can pick and choose from within one heritage but what decent ones exist are very spread out and it costs a lot of feats to do so.

[andreww]

I have started my level 12 low optimisation test which you can find here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfyi?Playtest-Arcanist-12#3).

[Talya]

eldritch heritage is two feats, not four, because (a) you're a half elf and got the skill focus for free, and (2) you're not 17, you're likely never hitting 17, and you're cherrypicking for 1or 2 bloodline powers that appeal to you.

also, I can't help it. I like the starsoul bloodline as my primary. which means I still need arcane.

[andreww]

eldritch heritage is two feats, not four, because (a) you're a half elf and got the skill focus for free, and (2) you're not 17, you're likely never hitting 17, and you're cherrypicking for 1or 2 bloodline powers that appeal to you.

also, I can't help it. I like the starsoul bloodline as my primary. which means I still need arcane.
Skill Focus isn't free, to get it you gave up being Human which could have been any feat of your choice or 3 skill focus feats.

The decent cherry picked powers are the level 15 ones, in particular additional summons, school power and fey magic. They require 4 feats to reach Greater Eldritch Heritage.

[andreww]

also, I can't help it. I like the starsoul bloodline as my primary. which means I still need arcane.
Seriously? Starsoul has quite possibly the worst Arcana in the game and pretty much all of its abilities can be replicated with spells.

[Talya]

Skill Focus isn't free, to get it you gave up being Human which could have been any feat of your choice or 3 skill focus feats.


Yeah, but you're not human, even without Eldritch Heritage. You're half-elf to start with, because Paragon Surge is really that good.

I can always make human/elf/half-elf/aasimar fit my character ideas fit my character concepts. (Something less human-like is harder for me)...so Half-Elf never conflicts with what I had in mind, and if you're a spontaneous caster, there's nothing better.


Seriously? Starsoul has quite possibly the worst Arcana in the game and pretty much all of its abilities can be replicated with spells.


Not really. The flavor is great (which is most important - I always optimize to a concept, and then make it work afterward. A character isn't just a bunch of numbers on a sheet), and it's a good combo of blasty and utility spells (many of which aren't even on the wizard list). The Bloodline Arcana is a nice free rider on your blasts (dazzled is underrated), and I tend to like force-spells with toppling spell anyway, so getting that free is great. And I like every power except the level 1 power. Yes, some can be duplicated with spells...but then again, everything you can imagine can be duplicated with spells. The point is, you're a sorcerer, and those are spells you don't need to take.

Is it the most powerful of them? No. But that's not what I claimed. I said I liked it!

[Raven777]

It could be worse. You could cherry pick powers with... *shudder*... Crossblooded...

[Talya]

It could be worse. You could cherry pick powers with... *shudder*... Crossblooded...

Yeah, even if crossblooded gave you two entire bloodlines, complete with arcana and spells and everything (I think it just lets you choose between them as you go), it wouldn't likely be worth it. The spells you get to choose yourself > the spells that are given to you.

[Raven777]

Well, except for Arcane, which bundles Invisibility, Dispel Magic, Dimension Door, Overland Flight, True Seeing, Greater Teleport and Wish.

[Talya]

Well, except for Arcane, which bundles Invisibility, Dispel Magic, Dimension Door, Overland Flight, True Seeing, Greater Teleport and Wish.

I don't consider Wish a good sorcerer spell. The rest, yeah, I'm probably taking anyway.

[Hytheter]

Yeah, even if crossblooded gave you two entire bloodlines, complete with arcana and spells and everything (I think it just lets you choose between them as you go), it wouldn't likely be worth it. The spells you get to choose yourself > the spells that are given to you.

You get both Arcana and Skills, but everything else is a selection.

Probably not worth the spell loss. I'm sure someone could find a use for it though.

[avr]

Huh. There are people who use the sorc. Paragon Surge trick in game.

On the subject, Sorcerer is a perfectly adequate class and backs up the bloodline flavour better than Arcanist does, so the Sorc. is not obsolete. In the case of the generalised arcane caster role, the Arcanist does look like it's better, but there are still specialised roles the Sorc. can fill.

[Zanos]

Huh. There are people who use the sorc. Paragon Surge trick in game.
Meh. Spend a standard action and a third level spell slot to cast any spells off your list. It probably won't make or break any combats due to the action cost.

[Raven777]

To be fair, even without the spell known shuffle trick, Paragon Surge is still amazing. You need to talk with the natives? Paragon Surge Cosmopolitan (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/cosmopolitan). Need a quick boost for a check? Paragon Surge Skill Focus. You need to take prisoners? Paragon Surge Merciful Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/merciful-spell-metamagic). Or any other Metamagic on demand. This spell is a blast.

Paragon Surge, like many other versatility boosters, ain't about what you can do in combat. It's about what you can do out of it, or even better, before it.

As for the spell shuffling side of it, see my signature. Would your standard Sorcerer bother learning Blood Money and Animate Dead? Probably not, since the opportunities to use these might not be common enough to justify dedicating her spells known. But with Paragon Surge, she has them on demand when the opportunity shows up.

[Hytheter]

Meh. Spend a standard action and a third level spell slot to cast any spells off your list. It probably won't make or break any combats due to the action cost.
It's better if you know combat is coming, or if you need spells out of combat.
And the spell is pretty good anyway.

I'm not sure if I'd use the shuffle trick, but it is sounding cooler now that I'm thinking about it.

[Zanos]

It's better if you know combat is coming, or if you need spells out of combat.
And the spell is pretty good anyway.
I'm not saying it's bad, just that I don't think it's game breakingly broken enough to be considered cheese of the highest order that should be banned in nearly all caimpaigns.

[grarrrg]

Is the wizard Fast Learning the only way to reduce prep time? Could've sworn there was another option to do that.

The Magaambyan Arcanist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/magaambyan-arcanist) gives you a variety of shenanigans you can do with Spell Masteried spells (in this case you would Surge the Spell Mastery feat).
But you still need to have the spell already in your spell book to make use of it.
Overall, it still loses to Surge-Sorcerer.


Meh. Spend a standard action and a third level spell slot to cast any spells off your list. It probably won't make or break any combats due to the action cost.

That is where Quicken metamagic and metamagic reducers/rods come into play.
Spell Perfection > Paragon Surge means you only need EVER spend a 3rd level slot and Swift action to get any spell needed at a moments notice, and cast it the same round.
This is why it is the "bah-ro-ken" (well...it's just "broken" for Sorcs...Oracles on the other hand...).

[Raven777]

Spending Spell Perfection on Paragon Surge is such a waste of Spell Perfection :'(

[Psyren]

Not really true. Many of the Bloodline Arcana are good. The large majority of the Bloodline powers are terrible with only a small number of standout ones. Just sticking to the CRB we get:

Aberrant - mass of pointless rays, melee stuff, SR which is more of a hindrance than a help and a minor magic item ability

Abyssal - claws and a strength boost! Some very minor resistances. An actual decent ability with Added Summonings but not worth sinking 4 feats into when summoning already demands 3 or so.

Arcane - probably the only bloodline with decent abilities each time you get a new one

Celestial - blast, minor resistance, short duration fly which you have had for 3 levels, 1/day reroll, again not worth 4 feats

Destined - bonuses during surprise rounds, 1-2 rerolls, avoid death from HP damage (not the greatest danger at level 15 and the destiny finger. Do you enjoy being your archers buff toy?

Draconic - more pointless claws and minor resistances, a pointless breath weapon doing the same damage you have been doing since level 6 and wings at 15 when you have probably had overland flight since 10th (or should have if you went arcane)

Elemental - more rays which become obsolete after level 3, minor resistances, terrible blast effects which will be beaten by your actual spells and a movement power you can duplicate with elemental body I (which you should have)

Fey - the arcana is strong but otherwise meh. Another touch attack, woodland ****ing stride, invisibility for 1 round/level at level 9. If you were arcane you would have been casting this for 1 minute/level since level 5. Fey Magic is strong but again not worth 4 feats.

Infernal - strong arcana but we have seen this combo of touch attack, resistance, blast and wings before. Not worth bothering with.

Undead - touch attack, resistances, weird aoe effect and incorporeality. Look an ability we get at 15 which we haven't had access to for the last 5 levels. Shame the rest of the package is ****.



He gets them at level 7 and only gets 3. The Arcanist gets 10 exploits and have a look at them. You can immediately discount all of the blasts as being ****. Of the rest the school and bloodline ones are strong contenders as is potent magic but I definitely want the metamagic one before 11 to grab greater metamagic.

Also I get to be far better than the sorcerer at metamagic whether it is through double dipping reducers or far easier access to reduced casting time (with the exception of arcane at 16+).

You listed several decent ones there. Aberrant is useful for a bad touch or shapeshifty build, and SR only matters if other people are buffing you rather than you buffing yourself. Arcane is good as you noted. Infernal is decent. Destined is good. etc.

As far as the flight abilities, remember that you can swap spells known while you level. If your bloodline gives you flight, drop the spell for something else.

I'm also confused why you'd stick with core and discount Advanced and Ultimate books. This isn't 3.5, all that **** is free so it's reasonable to consider it. Let's get some ****ing Shadow, Maestro, Rakshasa, Boreal, Starsoul or Protean up in this *****.

[andreww]

Yeah, but you're not human, even without Eldritch Heritage. You're half-elf to start with, because Paragon Surge is really that good.
Humans can cast Paragon Surge. Racial Heritage (Half Elf) gets you it.


and it's a good combo of blasty and utility spells (many of which aren't even on the wizard list).
It has one, Call Lighting Storm, which is pretty terrible.


The Bloodline Arcana is a nice free rider on your blasts (dazzled is underrated),
It really really isn't. -1 to attack rolls and Perception is awful as status effects go.


and I tend to like force-spells with toppling spell anyway, so getting that free is great. And I like every power except the level 1 power. Yes, some can be duplicated with spells...but then again, everything you can imagine can be duplicated with spells. The point is, you're a sorcerer, and those are spells you don't need to take.
Erm, Starsoul doesn't give you Toppling? Also the only spell you are skipping is pretty much Wall of Fire. The Fascinate effect is pretty terrible and you aren't going to be using Rainbow Pattern without the Heavens Revelation.


Is it the most powerful of them? No. But that's not what I claimed. I said I liked it!
That's fair enough. Its just a sham its a Bloodline which suffers from the cool flavour crap mechanics which afflicts so many of them.

[andreww]

You get both Arcana and Skills, but everything else is a selection.

Probably not worth the spell loss. I'm sure someone could find a use for it though.
The only real effective use for Crossblooded is Orc with either Draconic or Primal for turning damage spells into encounter relevant levels but it is probably better as an Admixture Wizard dip. The loss of spells known is just too awful, especially as wait yet another level before getting access to the next level of actual spells (as opposed to slots).

[andreww]

Meh. Spend a standard action and a third level spell slot to cast any spells off your list. It probably won't make or break any combats due to the action cost.
Paragon Surge isn't about in combat use, its about giving you the flexibility to have an option to deal with whatever situation you find yourself in. Much like the Wizard but without having to wait until the next day. The other benefit is that there is no need to have any of the less used spells as a spell known. Largely this is stuff like Planar Binding, Divinations, creating Undead or specialist stuff like Stone to Flesh or Remove Curse.

[andreww]

You listed several decent ones there. Aberrant is useful for a bad touch or shapeshifty build, and SR only matters if other people are buffing you rather than you buffing yourself. Arcane is good as you noted. Infernal is decent. Destined is good. etc.

As far as the flight abilities, remember that you can swap spells known while you level. If your bloodline gives you flight, drop the spell for something else.

I'm also confused why you'd stick with core and discount Advanced and Ultimate books. This isn't 3.5, all that **** is free so it's reasonable to consider it. Let's get some ****ing Shadow, Maestro, Rakshasa, Boreal, Starsoul or Protean up in this *****.

I haven't discounted them it was just late and I couldn't be arsed to review all of them.

If you are looking at the overall package only Arcane has abilities at every stage that directly benefit you.

[Psyren]

Andreww - FYI, the mods here don't like it when we multi-post, it's better to edit new information in than make a separate post to reply to each person.


I haven't discounted them it was just late and I couldn't be arsed to review all of them.

If you are looking at the overall package only Arcane has abilities at every stage that directly benefit you.

Indirect benefits are important too. If I'm buffing someone else in the party with Destined, then both of us are having fun at the table, and I'm saving my valuable spell slots for future threats. And Aberrant's ability to extend my limbs makes several spells more viable than they otherwise would be.

Basically, if you're comparing two classes, you should do so holistically and considering a variety of playstyles, not just the playstyle you happen to prefer, even if yours is indeed mechanically superior from a purely numerical standpoint.

[Talya]

Humans can cast Paragon Surge. Racial Heritage (Half Elf) gets you it.


Racial Heritage is a feat...and therefore removes the primary advantage of being human. Half Elf is strictly better than Human taking racial heritage half-elf.


It has one, Call Lighting Storm, which is pretty terrible.

It's funny how Call Lightning is always considered a solid staple for druids, but call lightning storm (which is better) is considered terrible for sorcerers.




It really really isn't. -1 to attack rolls and Perception is awful as status effects go.

It's not worth an adjustment to spell level, certainly. But it's not something you'll turn down if it's free.



Erm, Starsoul doesn't give you Toppling? Also the only spell you are skipping is pretty much Wall of Fire. The Fascinate effect is pretty terrible and you aren't going to be using Rainbow Pattern without the Heavens Revelation.

I wasn't clear there. I mean that I like evocation spells with the [force] descriptor, modified with Toppling Spell. Getting that arcana on all of them is just a nice bonus.


Breaching the Gulf, apart from the nice bonus to teleportation level, gives you basically improved Hold Person, in that it actually works on everything (not being an enchantment), and can kill in its own right if they don't make their save.

Some of the others depend on the setting. I'm building a starsoul sorcerer for a campaign set in a frigid northern environment, and environmental protection is a constant concern. Yes, endure elements is a level 1, 24 hour duration spell. Getting it constantly is still better. Same with Resistances/immunity, etc. Besides, this sorcerer still gets almost all the advantages of the Arcane bloodline, since there's not very much you need from it that you can't get with eldritch heritage, and feats are never in short supply. In PF you actually get people taking crap feats like Weapon Focus or Dodge because a +1 bonus is about the best they can find after they get past the first few essential feats. Something like Eldritch Heritage can be a game changing line of feats, and there just aren't that many feats that you want/need.

[Psyren]

I agree Dazzle is a weak status effect but Starsoul is still good. And it's certainly better for Sorcerers than for Arcanists, since the arcana is weak but the powers are decent. Besides, every -1 adds up.

[andreww]

Racial Heritage is a feat...and therefore removes the primary advantage of being human. Half Elf is strictly better than Human taking racial heritage half-elf.
The primary advantage of going human is the human favoured class bonus for spells known. I am not sure how you are getting it on a half elf. If Paragon Surge shenanigans are allowed in your game then you take Racial Heritage, if not then something else.


It's funny how Call Lightning is always considered a solid staple for druids, but call lightning storm (which is better) is considered terrible for sorcerers.
It's hardly any great secret, Sorcerers have far better blasting spell options than Call Lightning Storm. 5d6 per round for 15 rounds is taking an awful long time to kill anything at level 10 when you could instead of just save or sucked them out of the fight, dropped a summon or used a better blast to one shot things.


Breaching the Gulf, apart from the nice bonus to teleportation level, gives you basically improved Hold Person, in that it actually works on everything (not being an enchantment), and can kill in its own right if they don't make their save.
You are level 15 so you can cast Greater Teleport meaning the caster level is basically irrelevant at this point as you are not limited by distance. The dismissal effect is decent but it is once per day and gives a save every round and its DC does not benefit from your feats and you cannot add metatmagic (Persistent in particular) which can be so important in making such spells stick.


Some of the others depend on the setting. I'm building a starsoul sorcerer for a campaign set in a frigid northern environment, and environmental protection is a constant concern. Yes, endure elements is a level 1, 24 hour duration spell. Getting it constantly is still better.
A wand is 750gp or if it is that big an issue then you want it as one of your spells known and will simply take it.


Same with Resistances/immunity, etc. Besides, this sorcerer still gets almost all the advantages of the Arcane bloodline, since there's not very much you need from it that you can't get with eldritch heritage, and feats are never in short supply. In PF you actually get people taking crap feats like Weapon Focus or Dodge because a +1 bonus is about the best they can find after they get past the first few essential feats. Something like Eldritch Heritage can be a game changing line of feats, and there just aren't that many feats that you want/need.
No, you don't. You lose out on the free speed metamagic, you don't get school power until level 17 and you have spent a bunch of feats which would have been better spent on metamagic, increasing DC's and boosting spell penetration. PF has a load of decent feats for casters. If you are taking weapon focus or Dodge as a sorcerer you are doing it wrong. Eldritch Heritage is strong but primarily for other classes cherry picking stuff useful to them and that is because so many of the bloodline powers are horribly inappropriate for or of little use to a primary spell caster.

Edit: Also on the feats issue you are going to want at least 3 metamagic feats by the time you reach level 15 as spell perfection becomes such a potential game changer.

@Psyren: Noted about multi-posting, thanks for that. Doesn't it make things confusing to follow?

[Psyren]

@Psyren: Noted about multi-posting, thanks for that. Doesn't it make things confusing to follow?

You can use spoilers to break up your post between respondents. e.g.:

@ andreww
{Response to andreww}

@ Psyren
{Response to Psyren}

@ Talya
{Response to Talya}

Regarding Greater Teleport - that's one less 7th-level spell your sorcerer will need though, which can be reassigned to something else. (And aside from its great utility, is it all that necessary a choice for a Sorcerer anyway? How often are you hopping around the world per session? This one is okay as an item imo.)

[andreww]

Regarding Greater Teleport - that's one less 7th-level spell your sorcerer will need though, which can be reassigned to something else. (And aside from its great utility, is it all that necessary a choice for a Sorcerer anyway? How often are you hopping around the world per session? This one is okay as an item imo.)
That is the joy of Paragon Surge though isn't it. You don't need to know it, you simply access it when you do need it. Of course the alternative at that level is just to cast a couple of Teleports to get where you are going if it is out of the base range.

[Reinkai]

Paragon Surge isn't about in combat use, its about giving you the flexibility to have an option to deal with whatever situation you find yourself in. Much like the Wizard but without having to wait until the next day. The other benefit is that there is no need to have any of the less used spells as a spell known. Largely this is stuff like Planar Binding, Divinations, creating Undead or specialist stuff like Stone to Flesh or Remove Curse.

Exactly. While home brew rules don't have much place in this sort of discussion, I wouldn't be shocked if many DMs banned it. Mine did after one session of me having every obscure 4th level situational spell that no one in their right mind ever takes. You could argue that a cleric could do the same, but for the cost of a third level spell you can do it in six seconds.

[andreww]

Exactly. While home brew rules don't have much place in this sort of discussion, I wouldn't be shocked if many DMs banned it. Mine did after one session of me having every obscure 4th level situational spell that no one in their right mind ever takes. You could argue that a cleric could do the same, but for the cost of a third level spell you can do it in six seconds.
They can but it takes them time. Actually all of the prepared casters get to get in on the Paragon Surge benefit using Preferred Spell if they don't want to wait until the next time they can prepare spells. Simply make sure you have Heighten Spell and when you find yourself in desperate need of, say, Water Breathing, simply grab it as a Preferred Spell, cast it spontaneously from one of your remaining spell slots and go happily on your way.

[Talya]

The primary advantage of going human is the human favoured class bonus for spells known. I am not sure how you are getting it on a half elf.

Half-elves automatically qualify for anything that requires you to be human or elf. This includes the favored class bonus (confirmed in the FAQ, I believe.)

[Psyren]

Half-elves automatically qualify for anything that requires you to be human or elf. This includes the favored class bonus (confirmed in the FAQ, I believe.)

Correct - Half-Elves can qualify for Half-Elf FC bonuses, Human FC bonuses, and Elf FC bonuses.

You can easily fluff this as having more of one or the other in your heritage, or even hop around.

[andreww]

Half-elves automatically qualify for anything that requires you to be human or elf. This includes the favored class bonus (confirmed in the FAQ, I believe.)
Aha, they can although it is a reversal of a previous ruling apparently.

I still say you are better off with Human. Your bonus feat can be 3 skill focus if you want to grab Eldritch heritage and you pick up Racial Heritage (Half Elf) if using Paragon Surge. You are actually ahead of the Half Elf on feats now. After that its pretty much +1 skill point per level versus low light vision and +2 saves against enchantments/perception. I will take the extra feats myself.

[Zanos]

Paragon Surge isn't about in combat use, its about giving you the flexibility to have an option to deal with whatever situation you find yourself in. Much like the Wizard but without having to wait until the next day. The other benefit is that there is no need to have any of the less used spells as a spell known. Largely this is stuff like Planar Binding, Divinations, creating Undead or specialist stuff like Stone to Flesh or Remove Curse.
I didn't say it wasn't strong. It's just not game breakingly overpowered. My point was it doesn't let you respond reactively to situations by spontaneously casting any spell on the Wiz/Sorc list at no cost.

[Talya]

I forgot another bloodline I love:
The Maestro.

It's actually mechanically good, in almost every respect (except, unfortunately, for repetitive bonus spells - a bad idea on a sorcerer).

Still, if you liked the feel of the Bard/Sublime Chord in D&D, the Maestro Sorcerer is for you.

[Psyren]

I forgot another bloodline I love:
The Maestro.

I mentioned it last page :smallbiggrin: and yes, it's quite good as bloodlines go. Love the fluff also.

3 epic feats make a cool capstone too.