Custom vs Pregen. Do players care?

[ElenionAncalima]

So, I am working on a campaign for my first time DMing a Pathfinder game. So far, I am really enjoying the worldbuilding and creating the skeleton structure of the story. However, I have been pretty unmotivated when it comes to statting out custom monsters and NPC. I tend to just pull from the bestiary/NPC database...changing a feat or a skill where necessary. I enjoy giving them unique personalities and backstories...I just find the statting tedious.

While I really like making characters, as a player. As an NPC, it seems like a lot of work to stat a bunch of characters that will die in minutes. Also, I really want to make the game about the players...and not overly fall in love with some NPC that I built.

tl;dr and cutting to the question:

For GMs: Is creating custom NPC/monsters something that you feel strongly adds to the experience for the players? Or is it more of a passion project that you do because you enjoy making those characters?

For Players: If your GM doesn't tell you, can you tell the difference between custom and pregen characters? Do pregens diminish your enjoyment of the game.

If too few custom NPCs will ruin my players enjoyment, I will definitly but more effort in to get them some interesting character. But if they won't even notice a difference, its not really worth it to me.

[Rhynn]

I think custom monsters can absolutely set the tone of a setting.

I'm running Adventurer Conqueror King (a D&D B/X clone) in a heavily modified Dark Sun setting, and in place of either traditional D&D monsters (manticores, orcs, ogres, etc.) or just Athasian monsters (tareks, mageras, braxats, gith), my players run into creatures like Freaks (humanoids turned monsters by a contagious narcotic fungus), Sub-Men (feral once-humans), Fungal Husks ("zombies" whose brain has been taken over by a fungus, its only goal to reach a high spot, burst out of the husk's skull, and shoot spores everywhere), Grues, Rathounds, Shoggoths, Pyrosarchuses (pyrokinetic andrewsarchuses, duh), Ragamuffins (not the sentient pieces of trash, just vaguely inhuman creepy rag-wearers), Great White Apes, and so on...

This has the added bonus of keeping my exceedingly experienced players on their toes, because they have to learn a whole new set of creatures to recognize and fight. Can Husk Ghouls paralyze you? Does fire work on C.H.U.D.s? (Cannibal Halfling Underground Dwellers) How do you kill a Vat-Man and make it stay dead? Should we run from that enormous rainbow-colored crustacean (http://www.chicagonow.com/greenamajigger/files/2013/04/Mantis-shrimp.jpg)? And so on...

[Sidmen]

As both a GM and as a Player, I've never found that having a custom-built stat block adds or detracts from a character. As long as you're fine with creating personalities and choosing the right premade statblock (you can probably find one for every level of every class somewhere on the internet) then you should be just fine.

It rarely matters that you've statted up a farmer's daughter instead of just pulling out the random commoner block, or that the evil wizard is a generic necromancer you've pulled from some source or another - especially if it detracts from your efforts in putting the rest of the game together.

[Mastikator]

I worldbuild for my own sake mostly, I think creating NPCs most interesting, I prefer to do the fluff first and let the stats follow naturally. The stats are not the laws of physics in the game as far as I'm concerned, they're abstractions to make the game go on.

When I play as a player the answer to that is no and no.

[Rhynn]

As to NPCs: it depends entirely on the game. If the game is mechanically simple, like ACKS, there's very little I can even do to mechanically differentiate NPCs. I don't generally feel that giving NPCs attribute scores and proficiencies is even necessary in ACKS: they just have a class, a level, and equipment. (Mages, etc., have a spell repertoire.)

In D&D 3.X, I think it matters a whole lot, because feats etc. are such a huge part of the system, and will make a great difference in how encounters play out.

I am very big on creating huge lists of Generic NPCs (Town Guard, Beggar, etc.), but I mainly use them when I need to pull an NPC out of my behind, for nameless NPCs, or when a named NPC is unimportant or didn't merit a statblock.

Some games also do a good job of supporting customizing NPCs: for instance, in Artesia: Adventures in the Known World, I use big lists of generic NPCs (basically, every profession of every culture; that's probably around a hundred or more generic statblocks), but I can customize them easily: roll lineages (replacing the default "[nationality] lineage"), birth signs, birth omens, and childhood events as for any PC, put in the modifiers, and add or increase any skills or gifts as appropriate. It's a quick and easy way to customize a NPC; usually I'll do it for generic NPCs that the players take an interest in and turn into recurring characters, or for antagonist NPCs that I think are deserving of more attention, or need to be a bigger challenge.

[valadil]

The only time I've seen players have an issue with pregen NPCs is when they've dealt with those NPCs before. There's nothing wrong with pregen, but players would rather have fresh content than reruns.

IMO the answer to this is to either use another source for monsters (my 3.5 GM greatly appreciated the Monster Manual 3 I bought him) or use existing NPCs as templates and tweak them a little.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It depends on the system (the fewer stats a character has, the less it matters what's written there), the exact interaction (fighting makes stats more important than talking), and repetition (the more times we see orc barbarians, the more I'd like to see different orc barbarians). And, of course, on the quality of the pre-gens. But most of the time, if you're doing it right, no-one can tell.

[Eric Tolle]

If it takes more than five minutes to stat up an NPC, it's too long. Note, that's not background or motivations or the like, just cuddling with stats. That's why I don't GM Pathfinder; life is too short to create NPCs in that game.

[Subaru Kujo]

If you play the adventure and the NPCs in it well, unless the players are intimately familiar with the pregened adventure, I'd doubt they'd truly know the difference.

So I guess I'm saying it depends on how well you play either.

[Rhynn]

If it takes more than five minutes to stat up an NPC, it's too long. Note, that's not background or motivations or the like, just cuddling with stats. That's why I don't GM Pathfinder; life is too short to create NPCs in that game.

Yeah, this is 90% of the reason I dropped D&D 3.X and ended up running ACKS. 3.X required way too much working on statblocks, because my players are going to put effort in their PCs, and standard NPCs and monsters are underpowered.

It takes me less time to create an entirely new monster from nowhere in ACKS than it takes to create a 5th-level NPC in D&D 3.5.

[Telonius]

Yeah, this is 90% of the reason I dropped D&D 3.X and ended up running ACKS. 3.X required way too much working on statblocks, because my players are going to put effort in their PCs, and standard NPCs and monsters are underpowered.

It takes me less time to create an entirely new monster from nowhere in ACKS than it takes to create a 5th-level NPC in D&D 3.5.

Having just finished the planning for a 20-level adventure ... lower-level NPC-building has always seemed harder to me than higher-level. There are just fewer options to work with, if you want to accomplish what you're trying to accomplish. "Hm, I want a Goblin wielding two daggers here, but I've only got three levels to make him not die instantly and pose some sort of a credible threat..."

[Airk]

Echoing the general trend here - players don't even SEE the stats on the NPCs. At BEST they experience them indirectly ("Well, I guess he's got a good enough attack bonus to hit me even when I'm buffed..."), otherwise, all they see is the general results, and those are generally dictated in a large part by circumstances ("Oh, so this evil wizard can animate skeletons. Could the last one? Dunno, there weren't any skeletons around") and random numbers (It's hard to tell the difference between an NPC who rolled really well on his 2D6 fireball and an NPC who rolled really badly on his 4D6 fireball...).

There's very seldom any reason to do anything more than reskin a creature, and yeah, this is why games with less complicated NPC stat blocks are your friend. It makes it much easier to avoid worrying about the details. Heck, some of my favorite RPGs have between 1 and 3 stats for most NPCs.

Under no circumstances should you be putting in as much time creating the stats for an NPC as the players are putting into their PC. Every once in a while you might want to put in a little extra time to make an NPC 'special' but that's almost as easily accomplished by just adding or removing a couple of abilities from a template.

[ElenionAncalima]

Thanks for all the responses.

Just to add on. Are there any good resources for pre-gen Pathfinder characters, outside of the d20pfsrd?

[BWR]

It depends on the player. Some feel cheated if things deviate from the official. Some are fine with it so long as their characters aren't screwed over it (e.g. in d20 not being able to roll a Knowledge check to identify a creature because 'no one has ever seen one and lived' gets old real fast).

Custom stats for NPCs are really only important if PCs are going to be running up against their abilities regularly, be it combat or contested social situations, etc. and it's important that the PCs notice the abilities. NPCs that will show up in combat are worth spending a little extra time on. For the most part, if you have spent some time creating an NPC, you can reuse their stats for other NPCs.

Far more important than having custom monsters all over the place is having a long list of names for characters. I'm bad at this myself, because I continuously find myself needing a name for someone and just calling them Bob the Barbarian gets old after the first time.

[DSmaster21]

Thanks for all the responses.

Just to add on. Are there any good resources for pre-gen Pathfinder characters, outside of the d20pfsrd?

(Modules of course)

NPC Codex
Over 300 Statted Characters including 1 for Lvl. 1-20 for each class Paizo Link (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8v3a?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-NPC-Codex)

[LibraryOgre]

IME as a player and GM, the players will remember the personality, and not really care about the mechanics most of the time.

There may be occasional exceptions... everyone remembers the "Greatest Warrior in the Land" who rolled 3 straight 1s in a fight, or the torchbearer who critted his way into their hearts... but if you're dealing with "Boris, the Innkeeper"? They care that you use the funny voice and that Boris is fun to encounter.

Monsters are a bit different, but, again, I submit that it comes down to "How fun is the encounter"... they're going to care less about the awesome feat chain you came up with than "This monster was a challenging fight without turning into a DM screwjob."

[FabulousFizban]

I recommend creating custom characters for major NPCs like your bbeg or his lieutenants, but otherwise, just grab the NPC codex. As long as you are flavorful with the RPing and change the names, your players will never know.

If you're feeling lazy but want to do something a little more than tossing out a base monster from the bestiary, try stacking some templates on there. One of my party's most feared enemies is a worm that walks winter wolf.

(It came back for vengence when they desecrated it's corpse and murdered it's offspring... my party is horrible)

[Slipperychicken]

IME as a player and GM, the players will remember the personality, and not really care about the mechanics most of the time.

This. Players care a lot more about characters than stats.

[Knaight]

This. Players care a lot more about characters than stats.

Precisely. It's good to have some sort of stats in case it comes up, but there's really no reason to make a bunch of custom NPCs in a system like Pathfinder. If you have a system where it takes ten seconds, then you might want to take the time to make NPCs (probably at the time their stats become relevant).

[CombatOwl]

So, I am working on a campaign for my first time DMing a Pathfinder game. So far, I am really enjoying the worldbuilding and creating the skeleton structure of the story. However, I have been pretty unmotivated when it comes to statting out custom monsters and NPC. I tend to just pull from the bestiary/NPC database...changing a feat or a skill where necessary. I enjoy giving them unique personalities and backstories...I just find the statting tedious.

Style difference. For the games I run, I use ~40% DM-statted NPCs, ~30% pregen NPCs (faceless minions), ~30% monsters from the bestiary.

I've never been much of a fan of monster-heavy dungeons and rarely use random encounters unless I really need to burn some time till the end of the session.


While I really like making characters, as a player. As an NPC, it seems like a lot of work to stat a bunch of characters that will die in minutes

Custom-statted NPCs ought not die in minutes. They really should have options to flee, and should run when things turn bad. And they shouldn't engage if they shouldn't logically think they'll win.

Also, if your party is supposed to be a "good" party, they are supposed to accept surrenders when offered. It takes an exceptional enemy for truly good people to be okay with immediate summary executions. Enemies should probably try to surrender at ~50% HP and start begging for their lives at 15% or so.


Also, I really want to make the game about the players...and not overly fall in love with some NPC that I built.

It takes two to tango. Can't have a game about the players if there's no one for them to interact with.


For GMs: Is creating custom NPC/monsters something that you feel strongly adds to the experience for the players? Or is it more of a passion project that you do because you enjoy making those characters?

Yes, absolutely. Especially if properly executed in play.

[InQbait]

I, personally, as a GM, don't want to spend hours creating custom NPCs and Monsters. I usually just make up the stats on the spot. I don't normally use D&D 3.5/PF though. But even then, I can improvise that system as it is something I've gotten used to. Still, it is harder to come up with stats on the spot than say, a rules-light system.
That's why I prefer rules-light systems and not D&D 3.5/PF!
I just want to play the damn game, not get wrapped up in complex stat arrays.

[DigoDragon]

As a DM, I do like to make a small hand-full of custom NPCs. Usually they're the villains and a properly built villain will ALWAYS be remembered. My players definitely think 'custom' makes a difference with characters. Personality is one thing, but they each have these little bits of crunch that they just can't do without.

One player always wants to have Improved unarmed strike, another just has to have a rogue dip, etc. On occasion I've surprised them by having the group make their own characters, and then the opening campaign encounter is with a set of pregens I put together to represent some past event before their PCs began adventuring.

They're always so awkward about it that I'm amused. It's like throwing baby chicks out of the nest to see who'll learn to fly.

[Actana]

My preferred D&D is 4e and I use custom monsters a lot in it, with unique abilities not found in usual enemies. However, I do also present the abilities as they are written to the PCs when they become relevant, so everyone knows what's going on with the abilities. I stat the enemies up before the session, and once they've been encountered I rarely change them (I have done so a few times, once to adjust the absurdly low damage, and the other time to prevent a certain exploit from working that I had not thought about before and would have completely negated an otherwise important and exciting boss fight).

There's very little that irks me more as a player than a GM who makes abilities up on the fly and doesn't even tell how they work because "umm, well, it works. Because... Umm, it totally does. Yeah." I like a leveled playing field where everyone knows how something works and that things are consistent.


Then again, I'm also the person who made almost 300 NPCs for an E6 game that never even lifted off because I realized during the second session that I can't stand running 3.5 anymore. I like to be prepared.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

The only time I'd notice, as a player, if an NPC is customized? When they have a standout unique power; this tends to be mostly in 4E. A specifically unique ability is the only thing I'll note about an NPC, so you could pop a weird power on a generic statblock and I'd never notice.

Case in point: when we had an encounter with 4E spriggans. At least, I think so? Their special ability was punting characters with massive magical kicks. We definitely noticed that. I'm never going to forget it.

The most notable bits of an NPC are their personality/motivations and any singularly unique abilities they have.

[Remmirath]

For GMs: Is creating custom NPC/monsters something that you feel strongly adds to the experience for the players? Or is it more of a passion project that you do because you enjoy making those characters?

I feel it adds to the experience of the players quite a bit. For all of the people I play with, at least, they prefer to have interesting and well thought out NPCs to interact with. As for the monsters and the NPCs on the side against them, they're a great deal more challenging when custom built and not simply drawn from the Monster Manual, and I feel that is important. Of course, most of the "interesting and well thought out" part is the personality and motivation and all of that. That's more important than the stats. The stats do help support that, though.

Now, I only give full stats to NPCs and monsters with fairly important roles. The rest of them can get by with just what they need to perform their role, which is sometimes as little as a line of text for an NPC (the barkeep with no class levels at all doesn't really need stats), or the old HP/AC/Attacks/saves/initiative (or equivalent) for monsters.


For Players: If your GM doesn't tell you, can you tell the difference between custom and pregen characters? Do pregens diminish your enjoyment of the game.

I can tell when things die extremely easily and the GM keeps referencing the Monster Manual (or equivalent thereof). Other than that, no, I suppose I can't tell -- so long as the pregens are given enough personality and such. I definitely notice and am slightly annoyed by cardboard NPCs, but I don't think that's what you meant.


If too few custom NPCs will ruin my players enjoyment, I will definitly but more effort in to get them some interesting character. But if they won't even notice a difference, its not really worth it to me.

It really depends, as many things do, on your group of players. It would hurt my enjoyment; it would also hurt the enjoyment of the people I usually play with. I truly cannot say whether it would hurt the enjoyment of your players.

[mucat]

As long as the GM puts some energy into improvisation and vivid descriptions, I'm not sure how a player could know whether the NPC statblocks are custom or pre-gen. Over the course of a single fight or series of skill checks, the randomness in the dice will outweigh most character-build details.

I do think it's important that each NPC has a distinct personality, and memorable quirks...even walkons who the GM makes up on the spot. Being ambushed by "Bandit #1, Bandit #2, Bandit #3, Bandit #4, and their leader" is less interesting than "The big guy, the bald guy, the girl with the scar, the skinny weasely guy, and the wind-burnt old woman."

I find that as long as each NPC has a slight hook, even if it's just a single adjective, then they automatically take on more personality as the scene progresses. The Weasely Guy gets a critical hit or two, and the players hate him; if "Bandit #4" had done the same, they would have shrugged it off as random die rolls (or focused their ire on the GM, rather than the facelss NPC.) The Big Guy gets one-shotted by a power attack, and the nearest bandit yells "BEN!! That's my brother, you son of a bitch!" and launches a mad flurry of blows against the PC responsible, while the old matriarch yells at her to stick with the plan.

Suddenly, interesting decisions for the players. Will the scarred woman quit the fight if we give her a chance to rescue her brother? Bald Guy is the wildcard now; can we break his nerve and turn the ambush into a rout? If the bandits do break and run, which one do we chase? The old woman because she knows the most? The one dragging her brother, because they'll be easier to catch? The weasely guy, because dammit, we still hate him?

This takes very little extra work on the GM's part -- just make up a few traits at random, either before the session or on the fly, and let the players' imaginations do the work. Whatever impression they get of a character, assume they're right, play it up heavily, and let them think you always planned it that way. (Unless they're dead wrong, which is also interesting. Maybe the weasely guy is actually the only one here with a conscience...)


I also find that NPCs I had intended as single-scene extras become natural candidates for recurring characters, once the players help give them a little personality. If they later spot the Big Guy and his sister (now with matching scars) in a dockside tavern, do the PCs say anything? Summon the guard? Start a bar room brawl on the spot? Are the two of them still working for the old woman, or did the robber band squabble and split up after their defeat?

(At least they know the Weasely Guy isn't involved. They killed that jerk, and still take satisfaction in the fact, but sometimes wonder if there will be consequences...neither of which tends to be true if PCs kill "Bandit #4".)

[Another_Poet]

You can always use the stats of stock NPCs or rulebook monsters, and simply add a cool description or a couple special powers/items.


If your GM doesn't tell you, can you tell the difference between custom and pregen characters? Do pregens diminish your enjoyment of the game.

Generally, my players cannot tell. I almost never create NPCs from scratch, I just flavor and tweak a little. Same goes for monsters.

There was on occasion, however, where the PCs had just (narrowly) survived an encounter with carnivorous fish in a sewer. One of my players, Joel, was making Knowledge checks and dissecting the dead fish and asking a million questions about them.

Finally I just looked over the screen and said:

"I'm using the cat stats, Joel."

:smallsmile:

[NickChaisson]

I find my players care little for stats or anything, its the personality of the NPC that matters. One of the most successful NPCs I've ever had was just some random NPC with a name and a quick back story I threw together because the PC's asked. I never had stats for him.

I would say just have a personality ready and some backround notes (and maybe any important items they might have in case the PC's decide to "borrow" them) and you should be fine.

Custom content is what really makes a game come alive, its your chance to leave your mark on the world. your players will always remember the time that horse made of solid rainbows attacked them over the generic orcs.

Hope that helped ^_^

[MonkeySage]

There are tools out there on the net that I've been using for the more unique characters in my own setting; needed a goblin cleric, didn't wanna make a character sheet or write out a whole stat block since i didn't have the time. So I checked out an NPC generator for 3.5(you may be using a different version so this might not help much, but I'm sure there are similar tools), provided by Dingle Games, here (http://www.dinglesgames.com/tools/MonsterGenerator/dnd35/).

Myth Weavers has a few nice tools on it as well, used it to create the NPC participants in a tournament in one of my games.

I wouldn't do this with major characters, but on minor characters it can save some time.

Hope this helps. :)