Improving (True) Dragons

[Dr. Cliché]

This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16599133) made me think - are there any changes you'd like to make to True Dragons (or to an individual Dragon)?

e.g. how they cast spells, or if they even cast spells at all.

[Psyren]

I would spell out explicitly that Kobolds cannot become them; that's about all. DWK would instead be a 0 LA version of Half-Dragon for those who complete the RP requirements.

[Greenish]

Which RP requirements? Best I can recall, dragonwrought is something you're born to. Even your egg is extra-speshul.

[Psyren]

My bad, I was thinking there was a ritual like Dragonborn. But yeah, the rest of it stands.

[Particle_Man]

One trick I heard of is to change their spell list to that of druids, thus making the theme more nature-oriented.

[OldTrees1]

I would give Dragons more options in combat.

Metallic Dragons get 2 breath weapons. True Dragons should get 2-3 variations on 2 breath weapons.
Ex: A Red dragon should be able to breathe a cone of fire, a fireball or a ring of fire. (And should have some secondary breath weapon with 2 variations)

Melee in general should have a large variety of stylistic options. Think of ToB strike manuevers but nerfed to the strength of a basic attack, usable in place of a basic attack and usable at-will.

Finally magic. I like the Idea Shadowcasters had that lower grade spells would be usable more frequently. However I would increase the frequency progression to X/day, X/encounter(3-5 spell levels behind), At-Will(6 or more spell levels behind). (Provided spells were rebalanced/not abused)

[JaronK]

I actually love the fluff that makes Kobolds True Dragons... but they shouldn't get access to all the crazy awesome abilities that grants them (actually the best are from being Dragons, not True Dragons).

But I think all big True Dragons should get Sovereign Archetypes (which they do have access to) and that's plenty.

JaronK

[Greenish]

My bad, I was thinking there was a ritual like Dragonborn. But yeah, the rest of it stands.That makes DWK rather good. The old favourite, Desert Kobold, would stand at +4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Int, -2 Wis, +2 Cha, with 5 NA.


On topic, the Sovereign archetypes from Dragons of Eberron are pretty handy for customizing dragons. Switch around spell lists, gain turning, become a semi-artificer crafter, swap spells for martial maneuvers (comes with weapon and armour proficiencies!), and so forth.


[Edit]: I'd allow them to keep their physical ability scores when alternate shaped into humans (because otherwise they're so puny). Also free Eschew Materials, since dragons digging their pouches for bat poo isn't that cool.

[Fax Celestis]

I basically always make my true dragons Xorvintaal players now.

EDIT: Also http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303204

[Dr. Cliché]

I basically always make my true dragons Xorvintaal players now.

Out of interest, do they actually play the game, or do you just like the template?

[Fax Celestis]

I like the template. I'd say about half actually play.

I also actually un-restrict the application of the template to all ages of dragon except wyrmling.

[cakellene]

But I think all big True Dragons should get Sovereign Archetypes (which they do have access to) and that's plenty.

JaronK

Never heard of that.

[Kymme]

They are from Dragons of Eberron (a pretty cool book in its own right). They basically let True Dragons swap out certain parts of their spellcasting for other benefits.

[JeminiZero]

IMHO: Dragon Ecology is stupidly broken. They can live off dirt/rock. They don't even need to go swipe sheep from civilization because it tastes better, since, as sorcerers they can use Prestidigitation to have the most delicious dirt/rock in the world. And once they learn Wall of Stone, a single casting can feed an entire colony each day. They get powerful simply by just aging. There is no reason for it to establish "territory" in the wild (where there is no resource other than food which they already have in abundance), or to fight over such territory with other dragons. You can therefore have an entire society of Dragons that just chill in a sealed underground cave/inaccessible demiplane, breeding non-stop since they effectively have no food limit (especially true for the LG types which should get along easily). The moment anything breaches the area, it suddenly faces dozens of Great Wyrms, and hundreds of Dragons of varying younger ages. Its like Tippyverse in miniature, with Wall of Stone taking the place of Create Food Traps.

[WhamBamSam]

I actually love the fluff that makes Kobolds True Dragons... but they shouldn't get access to all the crazy awesome abilities that grants them (actually the best are from being Dragons, not True Dragons).

But I think all big True Dragons should get Sovereign Archetypes (which they do have access to) and that's plenty.

JaronKI actually like letting Kobolds keep most of the dragon/true dragon cheese with a few of the big problem items banned. The lower power Sovereign Archetypes, auto-qualification for Improved Dragon Wings, Singer of Concordance, and Disciple of the Eye, and the like really aren't that bad and allow for interesting concepts that otherwise couldn't be pulled off. The big problems are Loredrake, the standard Wyrm of War, Riddled, Spellhoarding, Dragonblood Sorcerer, Dragonblood Cleric, and Epic Toughness at low levels. Beyond that (admittedly fairly extensive) list, there's nothing all that bad about Dragonwrought Kobolds that I'm aware of.


I basically always make my true dragons Xorvintaal players now.

EDIT: Also http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303204I really want to play in a low-magic ToB centric game where the whole world is governed by a giant game of Xorvintaal.

And you have no idea how happy it makes me when I show up in a dragon thread to find out that someone's already provided a link to my handbook.

[JaronK]

Well, the sovereign archetypes that add Cleric casting to your list are incredible with Warmage, Beguiler, and Dread Necromancer.

Otherwise, I agree.

JaronK

[WhamBamSam]

Well, the sovereign archetypes that add Cleric casting to your list are incredible with Warmage, Beguiler, and Dread Necromancer.

Otherwise, I agree.

JaronKI sometimes forget how poorly written True Dragon casting is. I also could have sworn that Dragonwrought Kobolds got the spell selection options of the color of the dragons they descend from just the feat, but I can't find anything in RotD to that effect so maybe I just imagined it. So yeah, you're right, the "casts X as Arcane spells" should probably be treated as "can learn X as Sorcerer spells known," to prevent Rainbow Wardrakes (coming online at reasonable levels, no less).

[Larkas]

To be honest, I think different varieties should cast from different lists. For example: Gold/Blue = Cleric, Red/Silver = Wizard, Green/Bronze = Druid. I think that would be very flavorful distinction. Don't know what to make of the other colors, though.

[JaronK]

I also could have sworn that Dragonwrought Kobolds got the spell selection options of the color of the dragons they descend from just the feat, but I can't find anything in RotD to that effect so maybe I just imagined it. So yeah, you're right, the "casts X as Arcane spells" should probably be treated as "can learn X as Sorcerer spells known," to prevent Rainbow Wardrakes (coming online at reasonable levels, no less).

Yeah, DWKs don't get the extra dragon spells known... sorta. RoD does say they can count as Chromatic or Metallica and lets them pick that type, and Gold Dragons all get certain abilities, but that's quite a stretch.

JaronK

[Fax Celestis]

To be honest, I think different varieties should cast from different lists. For example: Gold/Blue = Cleric, Red/Silver = Wizard, Green/Bronze = Druid. I think that would be very flavorful distinction. Don't know what to make of the other colors, though.

And White/Black?

(my vote's for incarnum, but the incarnum dragon's already right over there, soooo)

[Psyren]

White/Black = Witch

(If 3.5: also wizard, or maybe sorcerer)

[Larkas]

And White/Black?

(my vote's for incarnum, but the incarnum dragon's already right over there, soooo)

Like I said, I don't know what to make of the rest :smallbiggrin: Maybe the Black could cast like a Wizard, but I don't know if their habitat is too conducive to maintaining a spell book. I'm not sure Whites should cast at all.

[Waker]

Give them some inherent ability once they reach a certain age category that allows them to take extra actions in a turn. Dragons are supposed to be one of the biggest of bad enemies that a party can face, but they can get ripped apart by action economy. A dragon that can cast a spell, charge and then breathe fire on the party is going to definitely make a more memorable and difficult fight.

[Psyren]

They should all cast like a sorcerer - this would only change the spell list they get to draw from. No dragon should need a spellbook, familiar or holy symbol/prayer.

[Larkas]

They should all cast like a sorcerer - this would only change the spell list they get to draw from. No dragon should need a spellbook, familiar or holy symbol/prayer.

Hmmm, agreed.

[Greenish]

They should all cast like a sorcerer - this would only change the spell list they get to draw from. No dragon should need a spellbook, familiar or holy symbol/prayer.No dragon should need bat poo, either. :smalltongue:

[WhamBamSam]

Give them some inherent ability once they reach a certain age category that allows them to take extra actions in a turn. Dragons are supposed to be one of the biggest of bad enemies that a party can face, but they can get ripped apart by action economy. A dragon that can cast a spell, charge and then breathe fire on the party is going to definitely make a more memorable and difficult fight.I don't think Quicken Breath was ever errata'd from a free action to a swift like Quicken Spell was. Add the Ravening Dragon Psychosis from Dragon 313, and they can use their breath weapon as a free action without recharge for three turns in a row (technically they can spam it infinitely by RAW, but that's just silly).

The feat investments for cheap Quickened Spells are steep, but manageable, and you could just use a Lesser Rod of Quicken with Rapid Metamagic if you feel like investing those feats into other things. Sure it'll crap out for the day after three rounds, but the fight won't last much longer than that, and how many bands of murderhobos are going to barge in on you in one 24 hour period?

That leaves your full round action to full attack, make a Flyby Attack with a spell or maneuver, or whatever else you might want to do.


No dragon should need bat poo, either. :smalltongue:
As noted in the Monster Manual creatures with innate spellcasting abilities, such as dragons, do not require material components to cast their spells.

I could probably track down the Monster Manual quote that refers to as well, but yeah.

[JaronK]

Wait, I've never seen that line in Draconomicon. That... that is insanity. I could see ignoring cheap material components, but ignoring them all if you have any racial casting ability? Dear lord.

JaronK

[Psyren]

No bat poo I agree, but a dragon who wants to shapechange should need a jade circlet, or a mirror to scry with etc. In other words I would keep focus requirements and costly components.

[OldTrees1]

I could probably track down the Monster Manual quote that refers to as well, but yeah.

Does that extend to costly material components? Can Dragons Animate Dead without expending gems?

[WhamBamSam]

Wait, I've never seen that line in Draconomicon. That... that is insanity. I could see ignoring cheap material components, but ignoring them all if you have any racial casting ability? Dear lord.

JaronK


No bat poo I agree, but a dragon who wants to shapechange should need a jade circlet, or a mirror to scry with etc. In other words I would keep focus requirements and costly components.It goes on to say that you do need a focus if the spell requires one. So that is effectively a no to bat guano, but a yes to the circlet or mirror.

[Fax Celestis]

Wait, I've never seen that line in Draconomicon. That... that is insanity. I could see ignoring cheap material components, but ignoring them all if you have any racial casting ability? Dear lord.

JaronK

Note that that contradicts the SRD:


Spells
Sometimes a creature can cast arcane or divine spells just as a member of a spellcasting class can (and can activate magic items accordingly). Such creatures are subject to the same spellcasting rules that characters are, except as follows.

A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body. Such a creature also does need material components for its spells. The creature can cast the spell by either touching the required component (but not if the component is in another creature’s possession) or having the required component on its person. Sometimes spellcasting creatures utilize the Eschew Materials feat to avoid fussing with noncostly components.

A spellcasting creature is not actually a member of a class unless its entry says so, and it does not gain any class abilities. A creature with access to cleric spells must prepare them in the normal manner and receives domain spells if noted, but it does not receive domain granted powers unless it has at least one level in the cleric class.

[Kuulvheysoon]

It goes on to say that you do need a focus if the spell requires one. So that is effectively a no to bat guano, but a yes to the circlet or mirror.

IIRC, there's a rule about embedding Focus items somewhere in the Draconomicon.

[Safety Sword]

IIRC, there's a rule about embedding Focus items somewhere in the Draconomicon.

Is "embedding" code for sticking them where they'll need to be cut out of you when the murder hobo band arrives? :smallyuk:

[Marnath]

Note that that contradicts the SRD:

Happily, specific trumps general! So Dragons still work the way the draconomicon says they do. :smallwink:


IIRC, there's a rule about embedding Focus items somewhere in the Draconomicon.

It's a feat.

[Waker]

I don't think Quicken Breath was ever errata'd from a free action to a swift like Quicken Spell was. Add the Ravening Dragon Psychosis from Dragon 313, and they can use their breath weapon as a free action without recharge for three turns in a row (technically they can spam it infinitely by RAW, but that's just silly).

The feat investments for cheap Quickened Spells are steep, but manageable, and you could just use a Lesser Rod of Quicken with Rapid Metamagic if you feel like investing those feats into other things. Sure it'll crap out for the day after three rounds, but the fight won't last much longer than that, and how many bands of murderhobos are going to barge in on you in one 24 hour period?
While I recognize that it is already possible for a Dragon to achieve this, the thread creator did ask what we would do to improve dragons. And rather than take several feats, items and template I simply suggested a trait that Dragons of a certain age category could unlock.

[123456789blaaa]

IMHO: Dragon Ecology is stupidly broken. They can live off dirt/rock. They don't even need to go swipe sheep from civilization because it tastes better, since, as sorcerers they can use Prestidigitation to have the most delicious dirt/rock in the world. And once they learn Wall of Stone, a single casting can feed an entire colony each day. They get powerful simply by just aging. There is no reason for it to establish "territory" in the wild (where there is no resource other than food which they already have in abundance), or to fight over such territory with other dragons. You can therefore have an entire society of Dragons that just chill in a sealed underground cave/inaccessible demiplane, breeding non-stop since they effectively have no food limit (especially true for the LG types which should get along easily). The moment anything breaches the area, it suddenly faces dozens of Great Wyrms, and hundreds of Dragons of varying younger ages. Its like Tippyverse in miniature, with Wall of Stone taking the place of Create Food Traps.

Chromatics do stuff like swiping sheep and establishing territory because they're solitary, egotistical jerks. They don't need to at all of course. Since their basic needs are fulfilled though, they skip to nonessential stuff. It's the same reason why incredibly rich people keep trying to gain more power. It's just a natural human (and draconic) urge.

Swiping sheep puts fear into the minds of the populace. establishing territory is likewise a way of showing that you're powerful enough to keep it.

[WhamBamSam]

Happily, specific trumps general! So Dragons still work the way the draconomicon says they do. :smallwink:Is it still a specific rule if it's a reference to a rule which doesn't exist? (More likely it's a reference to a 3.0 rule which no longer exists, another of those weird little problems arising from Draconomicon being written right around the time of conversion.)


While I recognize that it is already possible for a Dragon to achieve this, the thread creator did ask what we would do to improve dragons. And rather than take several feats, items and template I simply suggested a trait that Dragons of a certain age category could unlock.Fair enough I guess. I just prefer doing things within RAW where possible, especially from the DM's end of the table.

[Dr. Cliché]

Fair enough I guess. I just prefer doing things within RAW where possible, especially from the DM's end of the table.

Apologies if I wasn't clear - I was actually talking about altering the core rules for Dragons - not just improving them with feats and such.

[Marnath]

Is it still a specific rule if it's a reference to a rule which doesn't exist? (More likely it's a reference to a 3.0 rule which no longer exists, another of those weird little problems arising from Draconomicon being written right around the time of conversion.)

Fair enough I guess. I just prefer doing things within RAW where possible, especially from the DM's end of the table.

It's arguably less questionable than some of the other rulings that get taken for granted as truth around here, so sure why not?

[Thrawn183]

I'd like to change dragons to be significantly more focused. Either drawing spells from limited spell lists like duskblade, hexblade, assassin, trapsmith, etc or something along the lines of getting a few spells as supernatural abilities.

[JaronK]

It's arguably less questionable than some of the other rulings that get taken for granted as truth around here, so sure why not?

No, because it references something that doesn't exist. If a book says "The PHB says that Humans have wings" it wouldn't be a valid source for that.

At the end of the day, the Monster Manual is the primary source for creatures and the PHB is the primary source for spells. Since neither has this rule, and the MM directly contradicts it, the MM wins out here and creatures do not get this rule.

That rule's insane too. If implemented, just imagine Dragons running around casting Favorable Sacrifice at max value without paying components.

JaronK

[Ganorenas]

I haven't found much need to improve dragons (in 3.5) as a base. They already have the best of (nearly) everything. d12 racial hit die, all good saves, innate spell casting, multiple natural attacks, flight, spell resistance, powerful breath weapons (for their CR and being unlimited use).

Giving them class levels between age categories, selecting useful feats, and equipping them with the items in their horde (players fought a dragon wearing soulforged armor on more than one occasion and found shivering touch to be ineffective). Selecting useful spells known also goes a long way (before my players had the cash for serious magical weapons and scrolls, mage armor + shield made an early antagonist very difficult to repel).

I'd say the only easy dragon is one the DM didn't spend enough time thinking about.

- Using any dragon outside of the base 10 will also throw most players for a loop, suddenly nothing is color coded and they need to make those knowledge checks to avoid wasting precious rounds on useless tactics (Shadow dragons wreck the unprepared in caves).

Wonderful base creatures, love using them. :smallsmile: