On the control of summoned creatures, undead and animals

[Qc Storm]

We suddenly have an influx of "minionmasters" playing in our games, and I've been wondering what degree of control they should have over their underlings.

I know the undead are not very bright. So I assume the most I can expect of them is to fight the closest enemy mindlessly until it dies.

What about Conjurer wizards? Can he order animals to complete complex actions? Can he ask a bear to grapple a specific target? Can he ask an animal to jump in a pit? Will they flank? Does this cost an action on the summoner's part?

What about animal companions?

[Silva Stormrage]

For conjurer wizards most of their animals have 3 int due to celestial/fiendish templates so they should be able to understand standard language and flank/grapple certain foes etc.

Summon Nature Ally requires handle animal for specific commands and same goes with animal companion (Though I believe animal companion is a free action for that check)

Necromancy is a bit more vague. There aren't any rules on what action you need for animate dead's zombie and skeletons. I believe it is supposed to be a free action though, and they have telepathic control you don't need to shout out to the undead for them to preform the action and they can also preform actions that aren't that complicated. The zombies can still grapple, trip (Though these would obviously provoke), flank and the like.

For rebuke undead it takes a standard action to issue orders but often times that standard action is something like, "Obey all my verbal commands" or something similar".

[Slipperychicken]

[This is my personal interpretation, not the rules]

Unless the spell gives a special ability to communicate with summons, assume that it does not. When anyone summons anything, assume that it will fight for the caster, trying to contribute to the best of its understanding and ability. A bear cannot identify spellcasting, and will simply maul the closest opponent, while a wolf (or other pack-hunter) will instinctively understand and use concepts like flanking. The mindless undead don't understand anything and will shamble in a straight line toward the nearest target unless instructed otherwise.

When the caster cannot communicate with the summon, it should try to aid the caster in fights, but will not respond to orders. The GM might control the summoned creature and "roleplay" the creature's actions.

When the caster can communicate, then he can shout short, simple directions (i.e. "grab the mage", "kill the archer", etc) with a free action. If saying the direction takes 3-5 seconds, then it'll cost him a move equivalent action. Going over six seconds means the caster spent his whole turn talking.

[Qc Storm]

Here's an additional question, slightly related.

Can mindless zombies benefit from White Raven maneuvers? Things like White Raven Tactics and such.

[Silva Stormrage]

Here's an additional question, slightly related.

Can mindless zombies benefit from White Raven maneuvers? Things like White Raven Tactics and such.

RAW yes.

Should they? Probably not.

[Another_Poet]

I agree with everything Slipperychicken said (nice name!) except for this:


If saying the direction takes 3-5 seconds, then it'll cost him a move equivalent action. Going over six seconds means the caster spent his whole turn talking.

Talking is a free action. The rules assume you can talk while also running, swinging a sword, etc. (Just like any action movie hero can!) A round is 6 seconds, so that makes sense as a limit, but there is no grounds for depriving a character of actions just because they have something to say.

[AMFV]

[This is my personal interpretation, not the rules]

Unless the spell gives a special ability to communicate with summons, assume that it does not. When anyone summons anything, assume that it will fight for the caster, trying to contribute to the best of its understanding and ability. A bear cannot identify spellcasting, and will simply maul the closest opponent, while a wolf (or other pack-hunter) will instinctively understand and use concepts like flanking. The mindless undead don't understand anything and will shamble in a straight line toward the nearest target unless instructed otherwise.

When the caster cannot communicate with the summon, it should try to aid the caster in fights, but will not respond to orders. The GM might control the summoned creature and "roleplay" the creature's actions.

When the caster can communicate, then he can shout short, simple directions (i.e. "grab the mage", "kill the archer", etc) with a free action. If saying the direction takes 3-5 seconds, then it'll cost him a move equivalent action. Going over six seconds means the caster spent his whole turn talking.

The Celestial and Fiendish templates both grant 3 Intelligence, which gives the ability to communicate. And the knowledge of common, so the caster should be able to communicate with her summons, particularly if they're celestial or fiendish. The Druid should be able to use Wild Empathy to communicate although this is much more limited.

Also the "6 second" talking rule is pretty reasonable, but it is important to note that it is most definitely not RAW, RAW you can talk as much as you'd like during your turn.

[Slipperychicken]

[This is my personal interpretation, not the rules]




Also the "6 second" talking rule is pretty reasonable, but it is important to note that it is most definitely not RAW, RAW you can talk as much as you'd like during your turn.

Yes. It's like I already said that.

I hate seeing people throw down paragraphs of dialogue in a 6-second interval. Especially when it feels like the victim of a beating is able to filibuster his opponents with dialogue, as if the universe is forcing them to politely stand still and let him finish before punching him in the face. In a fight, trying to talk that much would simply waste your breath, time, and concentration, and leave you open to getting your teeth punched out.



Talking is a free action. The rules assume you can talk while also running, swinging a sword, etc. (Just like any action movie hero can!) A round is 6 seconds, so that makes sense as a limit, but there is no grounds for depriving a character of actions just because they have something to say.

You're right. I don't actually use the move action thing in games, and it would be unreasonable. However, in my gaming group, we do cost people their turns if they take too long deciding on their action ("you spent your turn hesitating"), or if they spend too much time talking. It helps keep combat moving.


(nice name!)

https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-frc1/c34.13.169.169/s160x160/297878_312194198807767_985702712_n.jpg
I've actually been thinking of getting a chicken avatar to go with my username.

[AMFV]

Yes. It's like I already said that.


Right, I wasn't intending to be contradictory. I was more trying to make sure that it was apparent to a casual observer, who might miss the opening line of your paragraph. So it wasn't intended to be a negative reflection on what you said, just trying to make sure that was clear to anybody glancing at it.

I've used a five words or less rule, which turns out pretty good most times, and seems to be about accurate as to what you could say while under a lot of stress. That's been my general rule of thumb as far as that goes.

[Ranos]

No speculation needed, it's all there in the rules :


I know the undead are not very bright. So I assume the most I can expect of them is to fight the closest enemy mindlessly until it dies.

This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands. The undead can follow you, or they can remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place.
So your necromancer can have their undead follow them, then switch to "kill everyone in the room" mode whenever convenient. He can't be much more precise than that, just a general "kill those guys" order.


What about Conjurer wizards? Can he order animals to complete complex actions? Can he ask a bear to grapple a specific target? Can he ask an animal to jump in a pit? Will they flank? Does this cost an action on the summoner's part?

It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.
The answer to your question is yes, if the conjurer can talk to the summoned creature. Otherwise, it follows its own judgement and only attacks enemies.


What about animal companions?

A druid can handle her animal companion as a free action, or push it as a move action, even if she doesn’t have any ranks in the Handle Animal skill. The druid gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all wild empathy checks and Handle Animal checks made regarding an animal companion.
Since there's nothing stopping you from retrying Handle Animal until you succeed, and no limit to the number of free actions you can take, a druid always succeeds at handling her companion. Things get trickier when the companion doesn't know the relevant trick, until the druid gets a high enough skill modifier to push it without issue.



The Celestial and Fiendish templates both grant 3 Intelligence, which gives the ability to communicate. And the knowledge of common
Are you sure ? Is that a Rules Compendium thing maybe ? I only looked up the SRD.

[Dalebert]

I've always wondered about this. The way I've always seen it played (but this could be wrong) is that the summoned creature knows who your enemies are as if this is somehow magically conveyed. Does it have that knowledge or, assuming no communication, does it have to figure that out from context? In a hectic battle, that can be quite a mess and could result in a lot of friendly fire.

[AMFV]

No speculation needed, it's all there in the rules :


Are you sure ? Is that a Rules Compendium thing maybe ? I only looked up the SRD.


All characters know how to speak Common. A dwarf, elf, gnome, half-elf, half-orc, or halfling also speaks a racial language, as appropriate. A character who has an Intelligence bonus at 1st level speaks other languages as well, one extra language per point of Intelligence bonus as a starting character.

That's I believe the source of this assumption.

Also this:


A creature can speak all the languages mentioned in its description, plus one additional language per point of Intelligence bonus. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise).

Since the summoned monsters don't list another language they an clearly understand common, but not infernal, abyssal or celestial, amusingly enough.

[Dalebert]

Do you know if this is also true in Pathfinder? For instance, a druid's companion animal gets to raise a stat at level 4. If you raise it's from INT 2 to 3, does that mean it can now understand common?