Optimizing a political assassin (not the class) [Archive]

Xintas

2013-12-12, 04:37 PM

So I am trying to prepare for a game and want to get some help with ideas for the character. The people I play with are definitely not "power gamers" but I like to provide a little extra utility in case things get dicey.

I want to play a character who is a socialite, equally involved in high society and politics, who moonlights as an assassin. I want him to be able to walk into a party, kill a target, and leave without anyone knowing. Also, a large number of skills would be nice (e.g. rogue or bard).

Some of the random ideas I had so far to give you an idea:

Classes: bard/nightmare spinner

Melodic casting + Adoration of the Faithful + Haunting Melody

Arcane thesis + hold person + invisible/silent/still spell for some coup de grace-ness.

Those are just some of the avenues I was looking at, but what am I missing? This guy never wants to be in combat, for the record.

Callin

2013-12-12, 04:43 PM

Human Factotum 1 with Knowledge Devotion, Adaptive Learner and Iaijutsu Focus for some Spike Damage. Level up something else with alot of skill points till you can become a Chameleon. Go to town.

Xintas

2013-12-12, 04:49 PM

Thanks, but like I said, I don't want to ever be in combat. I should also mention that this is 3.5 with only material found in non setting-specific books.

limejuicepowder

2013-12-12, 04:51 PM

Well the point of Iajustu focus plus Factotum is to make an overwhelming attack and kill the target in the surprise round. I don't see how this is any more or less in combat then casting hold person then CDG.

Xintas

2013-12-12, 04:58 PM

There is not really anything subtle about it. An invisible, silent, still spell is infinitely less noticeable than Iajutsu sneak attack.

I understand that a coup de grace is not the most subtle thing either, but it really doesn't have to be a giant chop, a precise stab will work at that point.

limejuicepowder

2013-12-12, 05:03 PM

The most common weapon to use in conjunction with Iajutsu Focus is the gnomish quickrazor, which stay hidden under a sleeve most the time. To wield it, the character flicks their wrist and the blade comes out on a short string before snapping back in to place.

I think it would be pretty reasonable (and stylish) to walk by someone in a crowd, quickrazor them, and blend back in before they even hit the ground. Combine the the mosquito's bite skill trick and the target won't even realize he's hit until a round later.

Just a suggestion though :)

Xintas

2013-12-12, 05:08 PM

That's a little closer I suppose, but Iajutsu is not how I want to go with this build. It is not in a non setting 3.5 book (that I can think of but I assume I am wrong), not a "magical" solution like I was trying to show, and not at all the feel of the character.

Callin

2013-12-12, 05:17 PM

Well Beguiler with Animal Cohort Viper (for poisons that get better as you level) who uses Illusions to Fascinate the perp while the Viper "Milks" Itself into its drink while everyone is distracted.

That would be fun to play.

Xintas

2013-12-12, 05:20 PM

That's definitely closer, thanks! I want to try to avoid poisons and work more from single person with as little extra stuff as possible (items, familiars, etc.).

I'm trying to do something like (excuse the video game metaphor) Agent 47 meets Tyrion Lannister, but good looking.

Callin

2013-12-12, 05:29 PM

You want to be subtle. Be a caster. And want to assassinate people. All while being Charming and Noticed but not Noticed.

Drawing a blank there dude. You dont want to use Poisons which are the mainstay of Assassins. You want to be self sufficient, THAT I can understand. You want to mix Hitman and Tyrion.

Yea drawing a blank. Sorry man. I hope I do spark something to help the creative process though.

Greenish

2013-12-12, 05:30 PM

You can hide the verbal and somatic components of a spell by using Sleight of Hand as you cast. That's less effort than Silent + Still, though not quite as reliable unless you really jack up the skill (which is not impossible).

Xintas

2013-12-12, 05:33 PM

I know that this is super specific but I really do appreciate the help. I was drawing a blank and figured it was time to come out of lurking to see if any of the people more well versed in this sort of thing might be able to help.

I really do think you have the idea down. Being seen while doing things unseen is really the whole point.

Callin

2013-12-12, 05:40 PM

Honestly thats why I suggested the Animal Cohort. Being seen while doing things unseen. Misdirection and Legerdemain.

What level do you need this to come online at?

Baroknik

2013-12-12, 05:42 PM

Look into psionics if you want to be a caster and not just a diplomancer. You can make a Concentration check of 15+power level to effectively still/silent it. Classes to consider are psion (for the powers), wilder (CHA synergy for socializing), and ardent (special abilities, including a big potential boost to diplomacy).

A psionic character can also get a psicrystal and have it cut to look like a jewel that he wears. "Gift" it to a target and you have perfect reconnaissance if within a mile, among other benefits.

You also have interesting options with power choice. Easy access to poisons and quintessence, drop some of that in his drink and walk away. Minutes later he's dead.

Callin

2013-12-12, 05:51 PM

Yea I was thinking about those. Dont forget there is the Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) as well.

Xintas

2013-12-12, 05:59 PM

thethird

2013-12-12, 06:12 PM

Bards spells cannot be silenced, so bardic magic is not sneaky. Bardic songs are not sneaky either...

Callin

2013-12-12, 06:15 PM

Bard has the same options the beguiler does. Little on its own as far as magic to kill people with.

I think the Beguiler has more going for it in the Magical Area. 9ths compared to 6ths. And alot better Class Features for what you want.

Baroknik

2013-12-12, 06:21 PM

Psion killing depends on how you'd want to do it. Shapers can quickly poison people starting at level 1 with minor creation, psionic. That is probably one of the most consistent ways at level one to kill people, since it doesn't rely on overt damage where poor rolls can alert them. Also, quintessence is insanely fun as a poison/trap.

At higher levels telepaths are the definition of subtle, and can use mind control to do the dirty deeds for them. Honestly I like shaper better for a solo-stealth person. Picking up Factotum 1 with able-learner could give you all the stealth you need.

thethird

2013-12-12, 06:21 PM

I guess dragon mags are outside of the scope but I like the trickster spellthief.

Otherwise one class combination that I like: Beguiler 6 / Spellthief 1 / Beguiler +2 / Prestige Bard 1 / Beguiler +x

With master spellthief.

You can also always go t1, archivist are really good at knowledge skills and they have a great spell selection.

Twilightwyrm

2013-12-12, 06:25 PM

The lower level the better. I would rather err on the side of doing things without detection than doing them quickly, so suboptimal methods/dps is preferable to every being detected. I want this guy to be walking around at parties regularly with the same group of people and no one suspecting him.

I had looked into psions and that certainly seems like an option, but I am not sure how I would go about the actual "murder and mayhem" part of it.

From your responses so far, should I just assume that bard is 100% not going to work?

No, it could. But unless you can incorporate Bardic Music into your plan, you might find them less immediately useful, as they are a bit slow to ramp up in the spells department (or at least in terms of the ones that would be most effective for you're particular...proclivities). Once you gain 1st level spells, you can always adopt the tactics of luring the target away with Silent Image, then casting Sleep and following up with a coup-de-grace. At higher levels Suggestion can be uses to place your target in compromising positions, and is usable many times per day for you.
Bard/Sublime Chord/Unseen Seer would be a good progression if you wanted to use Bard this way. The problem with all this is that you don't really effect make use of your Bardic Music to its best effect, which is kind of what the bard specializes in. If you want to play a Bard, but find you will not be needing the Bardic Music, ask your DM if they would allow the following ACF: http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Backstabbing_Bard_%283.5e_Alternate_Class_Feature% 29

Redshirt Army

2013-12-12, 06:39 PM

I second the suggestion of Psionic Rogue: Because of the INT synergy, they end up with buckets of skill points, and through Hidden Talent and Expanded Knowledge, can pick up any powers you might want that aren't on your list. Plus, they can do all the things that Rogues do, and can Still/Silent their powers for free.

Averis Vol

2013-12-12, 06:49 PM

http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Backstabbing_Bard_%283.5e_Alternate_Class_Feature% 29

Thats a homebrew source mate. And from its site of origin I can only assume it's terribly unbalanced.

on to relevance. I'm going to third (I think) beguiler, but am also going to say don't rule the class assassin out. If you on't think of it as a straight combatant, it still has a pretty darn good spell list, poison use (Which is better then you're giving it credit for with minimal investment) and progresses sneak attack, which paired with things like Mosquitos bite, weapon tattoo and a hidden weapon, can be a very potent form of staying a socialite and murdering someone where they sit before even they notice.

Seriously, you could shake their hand and walk away with them dying if you wanted to; no one would be any the wiser.

Toliudar

2013-12-12, 06:56 PM

Greenish

2013-12-12, 07:02 PM

Even if they make their will save, who knows where the attack came from (unless you fail your save to suppress the display).You can expand psionic focus and take 15 on the roll, if you're worried.

Baroknik

2013-12-12, 07:02 PM

Telepath Psion would be sneaky, with the appropriate social skills, skill points available (thanks to Int focus) and the ability to kill without being observed as early as level 1, using Mind Thrust. Even if they make their will save, who knows where the attack came from (unless you fail your save to suppress the display).

I agree, and if you expend your psionic focus to automatically pass the check (assuming maxed concentration).

I still like shaper better for the assassin, just because political poisoning seems more fun. Bite of the Mosquito skill trick + quintessence + hon mosh quick razor is a ton of fun.

EDIT: swordsaged on my first part

Emperor Tippy

2013-12-12, 07:10 PM

Factotum 8/Ardent 2/ Psion 9/ Archmage 1

Get Able Learner if you go human.

Ardent 1 is for Magic Mantle while Ardent 2 is for a 7th level power (gained thanks to Psiotheurgist + Practiced Spellcaster boosting your ML up by 12 so that at Ardent 2 you can choose a 7th level power from a Mantle as a power known)

Psion 9 is for the whole Psion thing.

Archmage 1 is for Mastery of Shaping. You qualify thanks to Magic Mantle transparency.

Skill wise you will be quite good and for stealth kills what you want is a Selective Shaped Invisible Sculped Antimagic Field that only covers a single square. Thanks to Ardent you can apply that metamagic to your AMF. Make it Selective to you so that you can still cast against it.

Get Practiced Manifester, Praticed Spellcaster and Psiotheurgist (Telepathy). If your DM won't let Factotum work with PS and Psio then replace the Monk level with Wizard 1.

You should now have an ML for Telepathy spells of 26.

You also want Maximize Power and Metapower: Maximize Mind Thrust.

Now what you do is use Cunning Surge to pick up a standard action and use it to manifest your Selective (you) Invisible Scuplted Mastery of Shaping Null Psionics Field (which you can gain from Magic Mantle on your second Ardent level) to cover just your targets square in an AMF.

Now you use Cunning Surge again for another standard action to manifest a Maximized Mind Thrust at full augmentation. Thanks to your ML of 26 that is 24d10 points of damage or 240 after Maximize (with a will save of 34 at 34 Int to negate). Then you use Cunning Surge again for another Standard action to either dismiss the null psionics field or to do another such Mind Thrust, and dismiss once the target is dead.

The NPF suppresses any magical, psionic, or supernatural resistances to mind affecting effects that the target has up, which pretty much leaves solely racial immunities, while also suppressing any other defensive magic.

The whole thing can be done totally invisible except for people with the ability to detect magic/psionics running and is traceless (as everything involved is purely mental actions on your part). It is also done within a single round in which you can do something else simultaneously.

Twilightwyrm

2013-12-12, 11:53 PM

Thats a homebrew source mate. And from its site of origin I can only assume it's terribly unbalanced.

Yes, it is a homebrew source. Which Is why I told him to clear it with his DM. While I admit that some home brew is horribly unbalanced, not all is, and indeed I might have noted that if I thought that it might be pushing the line. AS it is, all the ACF does is give up bardic music for sneak attack, trap finding and evasion. This is a decent trade, but that is all it is...decent. I only recommend it to him because it fits the flavor of what he is trying to do. Hell, I'd wager if you ask, plenty of playgrounders will tell you he is getting the crap end of that deal, as he can no longer qualify for Sublime Chord, he loses the party-wide Bardic Music Buffs, and he looses all the Bardic Music SLAs in return for some limited damage, and evasion. So I think it is safe to say your assumption was incorrect.

Slipperychicken

2013-12-13, 02:23 AM

Yes, it is a homebrew source. Which Is why I told him to clear it with his DM. While I admit that some home brew is horribly unbalanced, not all is, and indeed I might have noted that if I thought that it might be pushing the line. AS it is, all the ACF does is give up bardic music for sneak attack, trap finding and evasion. This is a decent trade, but that is all it is...decent. I only recommend it to him because it fits the flavor of what he is trying to do. Hell, I'd wager if you ask, plenty of playgrounders will tell you he is getting the crap end of that deal, as he can no longer qualify for Sublime Chord, he loses the party-wide Bardic Music Buffs, and he looses all the Bardic Music SLAs in return for some limited damage, and evasion. So I think it is safe to say your assumption was incorrect.

[Reads the entry]

Actually, that isn't a bad ACF. It's better than what I expected from dandwiki. Maybe reduce the sneak attack progression a bit so it isn't completely invalidating the Rogue class? Even so, it seems perfectly fine, still on the good side of Tier 3, but nothing gamebreaking.

avr

2013-12-13, 03:24 AM

For psionics, a wilder can blow someone's mind silently apart from level 1, and is charisma based. A single trick you can do really well seems to be what you want here and Mind Thrust with wild surge might be just what you need.

TiaC

2013-12-13, 03:31 AM

For an extra layer of undetectability, slap delay spell/power on your method of choice.

Xintas

2013-12-13, 08:25 AM

Again, I am much less experienced so this might just be me misinterpreting the intent, but Mosquito's bite seems to say that the target still realizes that it was attacked, it just believes that it was missed. That would not hide it from anyone in a crowded area.

Psion seems to be more in keeping with what I am trying to go with. Do I gain more by going with a Wilder in terms of charisma bonuses and power or going with an int based Psion for more skills?

Also, what prestige would you go into to keep gaining psionic powers while adding extra utility?

Baroknik

2013-12-13, 08:58 AM

Ah, you are right about mosquito's bite. Though if he wouldn't notice a miss, you could still use it.

Psion would have access to better powers barring the feat Expanded Knowledge, though wilder has more raw power at lower levels. I'd prefer psion personally, but it depends on where on the skillful/charismatic spectrum you wish to fall, honestly (at least in practical play).

Xintas

2013-12-13, 02:13 PM

Unfortunately, I do not have my books in front of me. Is Elocater 3.5 or 3.0? I never remember. Also, is there a class that really works except for the skills? If so, maybe Uncanny Trickster could smooth it out a bit.

Also, bard keeps sticking out to me for things like Jack of All trades + Bardic Knack. I think I might just have to suck it up and lure people out of the part before killing them. :redface:

Baroknik

2013-12-13, 02:33 PM

Elocator is 3.5, any reason to go for it? Other than rule of cool for scorn earth, it's a weaker PrC and doesn't seem to fit the theme of a covert political assassin.

Xintas

2013-12-13, 02:40 PM

It continues psionic progression (losing 3 levels if I go all 10) while providing 6 skill points a level, instead of the 2 or 4 most psionic classes give.

Plus rule of cool...:smallwink:

Toliudar

2013-12-13, 02:44 PM

I would strongly recommend Psion over Wilder. You're going to need the variety of powers that it offers, and the intelligence focus will soon overcome any benefits to social interaction that a high Charisma might provide.

If you're starting to think about prestige classes, see if you can get Psionic Charm to qualify for Mindbender, or else look at the ACF for Telepath that gives telepathy. The ability to communicate in an undetectable manner is absolutely, absolutely priceless. The beautiful creamy cheese that is the Mindsight feat takes this over the top.

Palanan

2013-12-13, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by Callin
I think the Beguiler has more going for it in the Magical Area. 9ths compared to 6ths. And alot better Class Features for what you want.

I've been looking through this whole thread thinking, "Beguiler! Beguiler! You really want a beguiler!"

:smalltongue:

Xintas

2013-12-13, 03:13 PM

Twilightwyrm

2013-12-13, 03:14 PM

[Reads the entry]

Actually, that isn't a bad ACF. It's better than what I expected from dandwiki. Maybe reduce the sneak attack progression a bit so it isn't completely invalidating the Rogue class? Even so, it seems perfectly fine, still on the good side of Tier 3, but nothing gamebreaking.

That's fair. There are quite a few ways to get SA from PrCs if you want to max it, and most targets won't be bulky enough to require much SA anyways (especially if Coup-de-grace is you main strategy). Maybe cut it down to 6d6 over 20 levels? You are giving up Bardic Music after all, and this would help make up for the loss of Inspire Courage.

Toliudar

2013-12-13, 03:20 PM

I have to admit that I am aware of beguiler in theory, but completely unaware of how to optimize it.

Mindsight doesn't seem super gamebreaking but I'm obviously missing something.

What does Mindbender get that makes it ideal for this type of build?

Mindbender is typically a 1 level dip, just to get 100' telepathy. With that and Mindsight, you can coordinate the activities of colleagues scattered through a party or a castle break-in. You can see if you're the only invisible person in the room. You can make a temple guard think that he's being haunted by a dead saint. You can tell if there are guards on the other side of a door. You can tell when the prince is actually a doppelganger (or, at least, know that he's suddenly a Monstrous Humanoid and that his intelligence has changed). It's a really, really lovely information gathering tool.

Beguiler is pretty much the sneaky caster in a can class - hard to make game-breaking, but also hard to screw up.

Xintas

2013-12-13, 03:32 PM

Ok, so let's assume I can figure out a way to qualify for mindsight. Which of these do you think is more in keeping with the overall theme:

Bard 5/Mindbender1
Feats:
Jack of all trades/Something
Mindsight
Haunting Melody

Or

Beguiler 5/Mindbender
Feats:
Still spell , Silent Spell
Mindsight
Arcane thesis (hold person)

Also, polling the audience for other advice as well.

Palanan

2013-12-13, 05:14 PM

Bardic music, inspire courage and arcane spellcasting are the primary benefits of being a bard, at least to me. You're not really taking heavy advantage of the musical side, not doing anything with IC, and beguiler has a much better spellcasting progression--with identical skill points.

For me it's the beguiler, hands down.

Toliudar

2013-12-13, 06:04 PM

Definitely the beguiler. However, since Beguilers get Still and Silent Spell as bonus feats at 5th and 10th (I might have those switched around, but the point remains), they're not great choices for your own selections. If you have access to Complete Scoundrel, the False Theurgy and Conceal Spellcasting tricks have the possibility of fulfilling the same goal.

Also, if you're a 6th level character, you'd have to choose between Arcane Thesis and Mindsight as your 6th level feat, since you don't qualify for either feat any earlier.

Other possible feats to consider:

Darkstalker: If you want to be able to be sneaky while avoiding other people with extraordinary senses.

Arcane Disciple (some god with the Travel domain): getting Locate Object and Fly onto your spell list will dramatically increase your tactical choices.

Obtain Familiar: For a pet with all of your skill points, and Beguilers get a lot of skill points. By level 6, this provides opportunities for auto-success on a lot of Aid Another actions, and lets them scout in places where you can't go.