Sub-optimal choices we love!

[G.Cube]

Classes, feats, items, whatever! Name the sub optimal choices you enjoy and tell us why!

I like the Endurance feat, simply because being able to sleep in my light or medium armour is both nifty and comforting!

[Greenish]

Non-casters. Because using magic is just too easy.


Restful comes both as an armour enhancement and an armour crystal, allowing you to comfortably sleep even in heavy armour.

[Rhaegar14]

Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting. Just short of useless mechanically, but there's something classic about the image of two long, identical blades.

[EugeneVoid]

Two Weapon Fighting

[Zanos]

Disintegrate. A level higher than several other fort-save or dies, and doesn't even usually do enough damage to actually kill anything of your CR.

But threatening to disintegrate people who bother me is just awesome.

[Spore]

Themed characters. Fire sorcerer? Yes please. Undeath Oracle? Yes! Paladin as specialised Demon Slayer? Oh yes.

They are very unflexible, but I love having a main motif. Having a single theme to your character also makes him/her more memorable. Instead of "Spore played another sorcerer with magic missile, confusion and black tentacles." it is: "Spore played this insane pyromaniac. He stood NO chance against the fire elemental and anything remotely from the planes, but boy, did he burn those soldiers to ashes."

[Honest Tiefling]

For Pathfinder, Breadth of Experience for the skills.

In 3.5, a druid with decent physical stats other then CON. You know, for when they're not a bear or a dinosaur, because danggit, they actually use their normal form for most tasks.

[BowStreetRunner]

Sword-and-board builds. Sword and shield is a combination that survived as the preferred configuration of a wide range of military forces for over a thousand years - it's absolutely iconic. Don't let the fact that WotC got it wrong prevent you from equipping your character that way!

[Emperor Tippy]

Mr. Blast-Your-Face-Off, my fireball throwing Evoker who's response to any problem is to throw fireballs at it until the problem is solved. He does not prepare any spell in a third level or higher slot that is not Fireball outside of extraordinary circumstances.

He is also no longer allowed to negotiate as his standard negotiation tactic is to throw fireballs at the individual he is negotiating with until they give him what he wants.

On the plus side, he can and has blown up an entire army with fireballs over a period of less than a minute and once turned a village into a crater in a single round.

[Zanos]

Themed characters. Fire sorcerer? Yes please. Undeath Oracle? Yes! Paladin as specialised Demon Slayer? Oh yes.

They are very unflexible, but I love having a main motif. Having a single theme to your character also makes him/her more memorable. Instead of "Spore played another sorcerer with magic missile, confusion and black tentacles." it is: "Spore played this insane pyromaniac. He stood NO chance against the fire elemental and anything remotely from the planes, but boy, did he burn those soldiers to ashes."
Searing spell will allow you to burn fire elementals to death.

[Rhaegar14]

Themed characters. Fire sorcerer? Yes please. Undeath Oracle? Yes! Paladin as specialised Demon Slayer? Oh yes.

They are very unflexible, but I love having a main motif. Having a single theme to your character also makes him/her more memorable. Instead of "Spore played another sorcerer with magic missile, confusion and black tentacles." it is: "Spore played this insane pyromaniac. He stood NO chance against the fire elemental and anything remotely from the planes, but boy, did he burn those soldiers to ashes."

Somewhat related to this, gish characters who don't rely on polymorph spells (though not Transmutation in general). Sure, I'd be more effective if I turned into some kind of giant monstrosity with eighteen natural weapons (not to mention I'd probably have a higher caster level if I did that), but lighting my sword on fire is just so much more stylish.

[Ionbound]

Belt of Magnificence. Sure there are cheaper enhancement bonuses, and sure nobody ever uses all 6 of their stats, but there's something satisfying about putting a +6 in ALL your temporary stat slots.

[Spore]

Searing spell will allow you to burn fire elementals to death.

Not in PF it doesn't =/

If you provide the DM with certain strengths and weaknesses on a character tier other than T5, they can balance the encounters around it to make it more interesting!

[Eldonauran]

Mystic Theurge. Without the early entry shenanigans. And one side is a spontaneous caster (the arcane usually).

Why? Because I can. :smallamused:

More seriously, I don't care about being levels behind a single classed caster. I like playing a supportive role. I like being the one the puts the spotlight on other players.



Belt of Magnificence. Sure there are cheaper enhancement bonuses, and sure nobody ever uses all 6 of their stats, but there's something satisfying about putting a +6 in ALL your temporary stat slots.

You can surely make one.

[Emperor Tippy]

Belt of Magnificence. Sure there are cheaper enhancement bonuses, and sure nobody ever uses all 6 of their stats, but there's something satisfying about putting a +6 in ALL your temporary stat slots.

Mr. Blast-Your-Face-Off calls his BoM his Belt of Awesomeness. He also has a Jockstrap of Awesomeness (it has an auto reset trap of Mage's Lucubration on it so that he gets one of his fireballs back every round).

[mistformsquirrl]

Monk. Yes the class is bad, but you know what? I don't care. >_< The concept is so enjoyable that I like it anyway; particularly the Pathfinder incarnation which can at least do some fun stuff with Combat Maneuvers.

Also Fighter - Yeah I can do better with Warblade* - but the pure malleability of the class is kind of awesome to the max. It's also my favorite go-to for any melee-magic user multiclass build.

*edit*

Oh, and Blaster wizards/sorcerers - Fireball is too much fun not to use, even if there are better spells.

*And I LIKE Warblade mind you.

[Spore]

Mr. Blast-Your-Face-Off, my fireball throwing Evoker who's response to any problem is to throw fireballs at it until the problem is solved. He does not prepare any spell in a third level or higher slot that is not Fireball outside of extraordinary circumstances.

He is also no longer allowed to negotiate as his standard negotiation tactic is to throw fireballs at the individual he is negotiating with until they give him what he wants.

On the plus side, he can and has blown up an entire army with fireballs over a period of less than a minute and once turned a village into a crater in a single round.

Tippy does blasters? This reveal is like "Bill Gates uses Apple products".

[Pex]

Healing during combat. I don't think it's a sub-optimal choice, but many people here do. It should not be the only thing a cleric does, but neither is it a never thing to do. Circumstances of the combat determine if and when it should be done. It is a perfectly fine tactic to keep another character active so he can "get the kill", who may be able to do it better than you can at that moment. You are not always going to have the I Win The Combat spell. Bad guys do make their saving throws even when you do. It's another player's character. Of course you don't want his character to die.

I've seen the results. In one of my group's campaigns I play a Life Oracle. I heal and buff in combat. Another player kept score one combat and noted his Inquisitor took nearly 200% of his hit points in damage and never dropped. In another combat the party got hit with a number of Ice Storms. All I did that combat was Channel Energy for healing except for one round to cast Blessing of Fervor. It saved the party. No one dropped despite coming very close. I have cast attack spells. Hold Person. Dispel Magic. Blindness. All good and effective. However, if I don't do healing in combat, PCs will die.

[Emperor Tippy]

Tippy does blasters? This reveal is like "Bill Gates uses Apple products".

Sure. My blaster just throws out 900 points of damage, SR: No, 80 foot radius, penetrates fire immunity, fireballs. And he can do so twenty two times in a round. And if he wants then they deal the same damage again the next round.

There is just something about the feel of the first time you blow up an entire army that can't really be described to those who haven't experience it.

---
Hmm, Go 'way is also distinctly suboptimal but fun. He forcefully plane shifts his enemies who fail their will save to incredibly deadly prison demiplanes (potentially up to 60 in a round). That is his standard offensive action, he blinks and his enemies are just gone.

[Hytheter]

Mystic Theurge. Without the early entry shenanigans. And one side is a spontaneous caster (the arcane usually).

I'd like to play a Sorcerer/Oracle Theurge. You lose a whole bunch of Spell Levels and don't start Theurging until Level 8, but you get Charisma Synergy and loads of Spells per day in the Levels you do have.

Probably still sucks though, at least compared to other casters. Maybe not so bad if the other party members are mundane or partial casters?


Sure. My blaster just throws out 900 points of damage, SR: No, 80 foot radius, penetrates fire immunity, fireballs. And he can do so twenty two times in a round. And if he wants then they deal the same damage again the next round.

This doesn't sound so "sub-optimal" to me...

[nedz]

Spontaneous casters. OK they're all T2 so not so sub-optimal except when compared to T1; but I actually like Thematic Spontaneous casters.
I actually really like Illusion themed Sorcerers — which whilst powerful at low level can run into walls quite quickly.

I just hate that bit when the game stops whist the Cleric/Wizard manipulate their spreadsheets for half an hour or more. This is not so much of an issue at low level, but at high level it's fairly dull for everyone else.

Also

Skill based characters, especially stealthy ones. Now the game has to support this with terrain and the like but it does make a change from rocket tag.

[Spore]

Hmm, Go 'way is also distinctly suboptimal but fun. He forcefully plane shifts his enemies who fail their will save to incredibly deadly prison demiplanes (potentially up to 60 in a round). That is his standard offensive action, he blinks and his enemies are just gone.

Yeah, I shifted my first monster to another plane today too. Way too fun to have an incredibly dangerous enemy just sent into literal oblivion.

[Brookshw]

Monks & paladins. Always had a soft spot in my heart for them.

[Emperor Tippy]

This doesn't sound so "sub-optimal" to me...
Not true at all, its distinctly sub-optimal. :smallwink:

Optimal is doing things like throwing out two thousand Ice Assassin's of Great Wyrm Red Dragons in a single turn.

[Callin]

Battle Sorcerer
Fighters
Bow Combat
The Generic Classes (LOVE them)

[Rhaegar14]

Characters who could accomplish an effect much more easily through a magic item, but take the feat instead because it doesn't make sense for them to rely on the item. For example, two-weapon fighters who do not use Gloves of the Balanced Hand.

Edit:

Tippy, it's when people like you say things like that, with 100% confidence that they are possible by RAW, that I realize that I am little more than a child dabbling in the art of optimization.

[Mando Knight]

This doesn't sound so "sub-optimal" to me...

In 3.5, there's three versions of "Optimal."

There's "Optimal," which makes you a very strong player at a table with moderately experienced players.

There's "Basic CharOp Optimal" which makes most non-optimized characters completely useless except as magic item caddies, unless you say otherwise.

Then there's "Tippy Optimal" where all challenges are already trivial, they just don't know it yet.

[TrollCapAmerica]

I wish I had a Tippy Optimal in my games just so I could see how far he was willing to go.The players in my game today [Factotum Swordsage and Bard] nearly got wiped by a Lich that just used the first version of optimal

Anyways my favorite sub-op choice would probably be the Wu Jen.A non-Gish Wu Jen that sticks to whatever elemental theme he has going.It may suck a bit but it has flavor out the Yin-Yang.Im most fond of Water but I kinda wanted to give a Metal Wu Jen a try if there were only more than like 4 spells to choose from

[Blackhawk748]

Battle Sorcerer, yes i dont like having to think about my gish

Straight Fighter i once went 8 out of 9 lvls as straight fighter, and no it wasnt Dungeon Crasher, its was Axe and Board, trip, shield slam, shock trooper fighter, also his brother was a Paladin who went Super Heavy, I was Super Light

[Hellwyrm]

He also has a Jockstrap of Awesomeness (it has an auto reset trap of Mage's Lubrication on it)
:smallwink:

[TrollCapAmerica]

:smallwink:

Its funnier if [like me at 12] you originally read the spell as Lubrication

[Spore]

Its funnier if [like me at 12] you originally read the spell as Lubrication

I thought Lucubration was a missspell.

[Togo]

I'm really really fond of skullclan hunter. I know it's way too specialised, but I just like it.

I've also spent too much time trying to make seeker of the song a respectable class. I've reached the point where the only thing stopping me is that the seeker refrains are swift rather than standard actions.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I wish I had a Tippy Optimal in my games just so I could see how far he was willing to go.The players in my game today [Factotum Swordsage and Bard] nearly got wiped by a Lich that just used the first version of optimal.

I've been on this board for a couple of years now and have seen a fair number of the good emperor's posts. His group plays at a level of optimization that most groups would consider to be only theoretical optimization. Google Tippyverse. I'm pretty sure Tippy has posted the basic outline somewhere.

Or perhaps he could offer us a link? I've been meaning to look at it again, myself. Though I -think- it may be called the "points of light" campaign setting. Not sure about that though.

As for the topic of the thread; one of the builds I rather enjoyed was a kalashtar that blended soulknife with monk by way of hidden talent and tashalatora. Objectively, he sucked out loud but it worked at the time because the group I played with was pretty low-op.

[Spore]

I've been on this board for a couple of years now and have seen a fair number of the good emperor's posts. His group plays at a level of optimization that most groups would consider to be only theoretical optimization. Google Tippyverse. I'm pretty sure Tippy has posted the basic outline somewhere.

So their game consists of four lawyer players and a governor DM that worked as a judge? Dungeons & Loopholes? I am not one to bash but some of his posts seem to suck the fun out of roleplaying.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So their game consists of four lawyer players and a governor DM that worked as a judge? Dungeons & Loopholes? I am not one to bash but some of his posts seem to suck the fun out of roleplaying.

Actually, I think they're programmers. In any case their whole campaign world operates on that level not just the pc's and BBEG's. Survival demands that level of op and they seem to enjoy it since they're still playing together, IIRC.

[Zanos]

So their game consists of four lawyer players and a governor DM that worked as a judge? Dungeons & Loopholes? I am not one to bash but some of his posts seem to suck the fun out of roleplaying.
You should read the post he made about how his one character was a planet sized animated object.

[denthor]

half orc mages got to love them. You had the strength to hit in melee and could cast spells.. My party hates me would kill on site. Quote Half orcs are a waste of good roles.


Necromancers no damage everything is helping again the people I play hate me killed on site. No booms, no transmutations. In 3.0 no transformations only.

[Reprimand]

"Controller" characters because domination is so much fun, but Greater/Dispel Magic and Break Enchantment make me sad.

This might not be sub optimal but nature-isque monks, think Fist of the Forest without the prc.

Vow of Poverty! ITS SO BAD BUT IT HAS SUCH GOOD FLAVOR!

[Kelb_Panthera]

You should read the post he made about how his one character was a planet sized animated object.

I preferred his post on the CHIT money system. Trading tiny ice assassin aleaxes as money; LOL what?!

[Joe the Rat]

Dragon Shamans. They want to be awesome soooo badly, and have a neat theme, but just don't have the chops.

[zeboss]

Its funnier if [like me at 12] you originally read the spell as Lubrication

Oh my god I just realized that the spell isn't supposed to be read as lubrication...

[FinnDarkblade]

It's Hellfire Warlocks for me. The whole concept is just so awesome but even with cheese you're only mediocre at best.

[Tengu_temp]

Gishes are harder to build than straight casters and tend to be inferior in everything except maybe damage potential, but they're so much cooler.

[Alent]

I'm fond of Eldritch Disciple Glaivelocks that don't use ur-priest or carry around loads of nightsticks. They're ever so fun on paper, despite how unreasonably the theurging loses out.

I've just never gotten to play one because everyone at my table has some rather unusual beliefs about OP and Char Op, and thinks the turning attempt Eldritch blast shaped heal is cheating.

[Coidzor]

Not in PF it doesn't =/

There's a Searing Spell in Pathfinder? Where? :smallconfused:

[Spore]

There's a Searing Spell in Pathfinder? Where? :smallconfused:

I meant that it doesn't exist.

[Coidzor]

Gishes are harder to build than straight casters and tend to be inferior in everything except maybe damage potential, but they're so much cooler.

Darn Skippy.


I meant that it doesn't exist.

Ah, okay then.

[Shoat]

Actually putting roleplaying before optimal builds that're considered "good".

Even when "breaking the rules" (talking DM into applying homerules) thematically cool stuff is more important than the strongest abilities in the game - I recently managed to have my kobold druid's wild shape abilities completely replaced by dragon disciple class features.


And I was also given the chance to create a Lycanthrope character of ANY animal of my choice for a new campaign that starts soon and I made him a Were-Rabbit instead of anything strong because I may or may not have played too much Fire Emblem recently.



Aside from that... rod of wonder. Very entertaining item.

[Kyeudo]

Actually putting roleplaying before optimal builds that're considered "good"


Don't come into this thread with a "roleplay before rollplay" argument. We don't need to derail this thread with a discussion of the Stormwind Fallacy all over again.

[ben-zayb]

I'm yet to see an Epic Game recruitment thread (even where homebrew aren't allowed) without an Archer submission. I've also done my share of Swift Hunter characters, and, heck, even Soulbow! :smallwink:

[Seer_of_Heart]

I really like theurges but without combining them with fast casting classes :smallbiggrin: they're worse than going pure X.

[Forrestfire]

I really love unarmed characters. I rarely get to play one, but they're very enjoyable when I do (even if I generally go out of my way to avoid the Monk...)

[Phelix-Mu]

I have a crush on DFA ever since I created a high-level elven one as an npc. She'd taken Dragon Cohort and was part of an allied party of npcs, along with her brother, a Champion of Gwenhwyryf (or however that is spelled). She managed to humiliate a sand dragon in battle, and the dragon had decided to tag along with her until it found a way to beat her. They had a very amusing adversarial relationship, but were very effective in battle.

Granted, not a high-op campaign, and I never had to slog through 18 levels of "I use my breath weapon...again." But still, the visuals and memories of that npc have given me an abnormal bias toward DFAs ever since.

[Coidzor]

I have a crush on DFA ever since I created a high-level elven one as an npc. She'd taken Dragon Cohort and was part of an allied party of npcs, along with her brother, a Champion of Gwenhwyryf (or however that is spelled). She managed to humiliate a sand dragon in battle, and the dragon had decided to tag along with her until it found a way to beat her. They had a very amusing adversarial relationship, but were very effective in battle.

Granted, not a high-op campaign, and I never had to slog through 18 levels of "I use my breath weapon...again." But still, the visuals and memories of that npc have given me an abnormal bias toward DFAs ever since.

Gwynharwyf

DFAs do seem like they'd be fun, I've been meaning to try one out.

[Novawurmson]

One of my first characters was a half-elf monk. I loved that character.

[dantiesilva]

For some odd reason I have always been in love with the paladin. It has flavor and all. Could it have been made better sure, however when the book first came out they were just trying to throw things together.

Bard gets Inspire courage boosted I think its every 5 levels, Favored enemy of rangers is every 5 levels so they were probably think lets make smite be five levels as well keep it rolling. I have built a ton of differnt kinds of PAladins, and I have had fun with each and every one. Hell my friend made a female drow that was a paladin of freedom in an Abjurant champion gish and it is one of the favorite characters of the group.

[Kennisiou]

Wildshape Ranger + Scout Swift Hunter.

It's not a bad swift hunter build (on the contrary, it's pretty much strictly better than TWF Swift Hunter), it's just a bad Wildshape Ranger build compared to MoMF or even just Wildshape Ranger 5/MoMF 1/Chameleon 10/MoMF 4 or something like that.

[tadkins]

The Loremaster PrC. Might not be the most optimal but I love the feel of the class. I picture an archaeologist-type character who hunts for artifacts and other valuables, appraises them to judge their worth, and uses UMD to make actual use of them.

Edit: Also, Spell Thematics. It's a great way to really customize the flavor of your character. In my opinion it should be a free, default feat.

[gr8artist]

3.5 Purified spell - the best +1 adjustment money can buy.
A spell you modify with this feat gains the good descriptor. Furthermore, if the spell deals damage, neutral creatures take half damage, or one-quarter with a successful saving throw (if allowed), while good creatures take no damage at all. Evil outsiders affected by the spell take extra damage: The spell's damage is increased by one die type (each 1d6 becomes 1d8, each 1d8 becomes 2d6, and so on, using the same progression as weapons increasing in size). For example, a purified lightning bolt cast by a 7th-level wizard deals 7d6 points of electricity damage to evil creatures, half damage to neutral creatures, and no damage at all to good creatures caught in its path. Evil outsiders (except ones immune to electricity) take 7d8 points of damage. A purified spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.
Be chaotic good. Throw fireballs into a room with enemies and allies alike, and blame them when they take damage.

Also, weapon size increases. I love stacking those.

[largertyler]

Healing during combat. I don't think it's a sub-optimal choice, but many people here do. It should not be the only thing a cleric does, but neither is it a never thing to do. Circumstances of the combat determine if and when it should be done. It is a perfectly fine tactic to keep another character active so he can "get the kill", who may be able to do it better than you can at that moment. You are not always going to have the I Win The Combat spell. Bad guys do make their saving throws even when you do. It's another player's character. Of course you don't want his character to die.

I've seen the results. In one of my group's campaigns I play a Life Oracle. I heal and buff in combat. Another player kept score one combat and noted his Inquisitor took nearly 200% of his hit points in damage and never dropped. In another combat the party got hit with a number of Ice Storms. All I did that combat was Channel Energy for healing except for one round to cast Blessing of Fervor. It saved the party. No one dropped despite coming very close. I have cast attack spells. Hold Person. Dispel Magic. Blindness. All good and effective. However, if I don't do healing in combat, PCs will die.


This is my experience exactly! I don't mind being a walking health dispensary.

[Kazyan]

Tippy, it's when people like you say things like that, with 100% confidence that they are possible by RAW, that I realize that I am little more than a child dabbling in the art of optimization.

I think it's Time Stop -> Shapechange into Zodar -> Wish (CL 2000 scroll of Chain Reach Ice Assassin [Great Wyrm Dragon]) -> Shapechange into Lilitu -> Use Scroll via Item Use -> Laugh.

[Emperor Tippy]

I think it's Time Stop -> Shapechange into Zodar -> Wish (CL 2000 scroll of Chain Reach Ice Assassin [Great Wyrm Dragon]) -> Shapechange into Lilitu -> Use Scroll via Item Use -> Laugh.

Nope, its a Factotum/Ardent/Psion combination. No items necessary.

[Maginomicon]

Somewhat related to this, gish characters who don't rely on polymorph spells (though not Transmutation in general). Sure, I'd be more effective if I turned into some kind of giant monstrosity with eighteen natural weapons (not to mention I'd probably have a higher caster level if I did that), but lighting my sword on fire is just so much more stylish.

Mystic Theurge. Without the early entry shenanigans. And one side is a spontaneous caster (the arcane usually).
I created a gish build that wasn't just a mystic theurge, but also had LA and RHD and uses generic classes.

Thri-Kreen (psionic) 2 (+2 LA) / Divine Spellcaster 4 / Arcane Spellcaster 1 / Mystic Theurge X

Combat Reflexes (@ECL1 from Chivalrous Courtesy Flaw; SRD)
Psionic Fist (@ECL1 from Grudge Keeper Flaw; SRD)
Weapon Finesse (@ECL1; SRD)
Deflect Arrows (@ECL2 from Racial bonus feat; SRD)
Sneak Attack (@ECL3 from Divine Spellcaster generic feat; SRD)
Craven (@ECL3; CoR 17)
Arcane Focus (@ECL8; D351 88)
Potent Dweomercraft (@ECL9 from Arcane Spellcaster generic feat; D351 89)

Relies on a somewhat-liberal interpretation of Spectral Hand that allows you to use the hand "any time you could make a melee touch attack to deliver a touch spell" and refluffs the hand itself it as a ball of energy. Do that, and you've got yourself a full-contact mage (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FullContactMagic). Being a psionic Thri-Kreen means you automatically get Psionic focus (a big boon compared to combat casting, especially if you also pick up Arcane Focus) and five natural attacks per round. Have him carry a darklight (SoS 140; 500 gp) and he can attack at range from within non-magical darkness with impunity.

I frickin' love this build. Sub-OP as all-hell but I love it anyway.

[Know(Nothing)]

VoP Controller Druids who rarely, if ever, wildshape.

Barbarians/Warhulks who are naive to the point of liability most of the time, yet are always the ones who seem to solve the tricky intellectual challenge.

Deliberately Tier-3 campaigns. Seriously, the best way to encourage organic team-play and tactical thinking. Best idea any of my tables have implemented thus far.

[Kazyan]

Nope, its a Factotum/Ardent/Psion combination. No items necessary.

Here's a reverse engineering attempt.

Factotum 8/Ardent 11/Psion 1. Use the Dominant Ideal ACF with some finagling of Substitute Mantle so that you can have IA as part of your Dominant Ideal; Creation mantle fits really well. Practiced Manifester on Ardent. Magic Mantle to make Magic = Psionics. Practiced Spellcaster on Ardent; that's now valid. Psiotheurgist to stack 19 manifester levels with themselves (treated as arcane with Magic Mantle) so you have an ML of 38 or certain powers, of which you have to make sure IA will be one; use Psychic Chirurgery to get IA from an StP Erudite. Font of Inspiration, like, 11 times. (DCFS Gray Elf feats, Psion bonus feats, and two Ardent bonus feats from Creation and Conflict mantles into them.) Cunning Surge to get 23 extra standard actions. Throw out a Twinned Chained Ice Assassin 24 times, ignoring the material component because that's how StP psionics work, followed by a Quickened Twinned Chained Ice Assassin as a 25th manifesting. 38 * 2 * 25 = 1900 Ice Assassins.

Not sure where the last 100 are coming from, what Psion is for, or if one can have enough PP for this.

[Greenish]

Multi-weapon fighting. All the troubles of TWF, but with added weapon expenses and the difficulty of getting extra hands in the first place (without being a caster).

But, well,
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/4/47192/869578-general_grievous.jpg


Speaking of the trouble of getting extra hands, playing monstrous characters. Doing most anything outside "human but X" gets you saddled with piles of RHD and LA.

[Eldariel]

While quite suboptimal, I do love making Warblades (and ToB classes in general). There's slight, but wondrous utility in stuff like being able to use Fiendish Grafts with no risks with Moment of Perfect Mind to auto-make the saves even on Nat 1, being able to piggyback off others' action power with White Raven Tactics, do whatever Iron Heart Surge does and act as an Initiative Lift with Moment of Prescience and White Raven Tactics, among other things.

Getting 20' steps with +40 Tumble and Press the Advantage is also cool, as is effectively having Track with Hunter's Sense and all that convenient stuff. Standard Action strikes with Order Forged From Chaos while riding (you don't lose move action, all other allies within 30' gain one), Leading the Charge + Pounce for a solid melee barrage without any actual resources spent towards it, ranged full attack action with secondary natural weapon (attacking the square in front of you) to refresh maneuvers even tho Warblade recovery requires the melee attack, Quicksilver Motion to use e.g. Order Forged From Chaos or Master of Many Forms Wildshape, having effectively an Adamantine Pick in your hands + Power Attack + Mountain Hammer, all the fun stuff that book does with very little investment.

[Zanos]

I meant that it doesn't exist.
:smallfrown: I'll burn a village tonight for you, brother.

The Loremaster PrC. Might not be the most optimal but I love the feel of the class. I picture an archaeologist-type character who hunts for artifacts and other valuables, appraises them to judge their worth, and uses UMD to make actual use of them.

Edit: Also, Spell Thematics. It's a great way to really customize the flavor of your character. In my opinion it should be a free, default feat.
A lot of people think loremaster is mediocre, and I disagree. You can use a location from CS to get in without the feat tax, pick up a free feat with the free secret, and get UMD as a class skill. The other secrets are actually all pretty rad too, because you can get four CC skillpoints, or untyped bonuses to your saves. The AC, to hit, and HP secrets are kind of meh, I suppose.

[molten_dragon]

Sorcerer. Definitely inferior to the wizard, but I love them anyway.

[DeusMortuusEst]

Monks - my first character was a githzerai monk and I have some great memories from that campaign. He was terrible at everything besides having a decent AC at low level but the rest of the party was terribad as well and we had no idea what we were doing so it didn't matter much. Rule of cool took precedence over everything else and for a while we had a fighter who wielded the last BBEG as his weapon (holding the corpse in one leg and swinging it around. The BBEG wore spiked fullplate when he died so it was ruled to be dealing damage as a huge morning star or something like it.). Needless to say it was awesome.

Shade template - +5 LA cripples almost every build, but this template just gives to much fun stuff that I can't help but love it!

[Psyren]

Archers. I love playing archers, even if the system hates them.

[Emperor Tippy]

Archers. I love playing archers, even if the system hates them.

Same. And Assassin type characters in general.

Do you have any idea how much of a pain it was to figure out a way to make Corvo from Dishonored when I wanted to play someone like him in a stealth focused adventure?

Seriously a royal pain.

[Seerow]

Too much int.

I'm a sucker for investing more than I should into intelligence on characters. Not because I want to roleplay some super genius, but because I can't get enough skill points. There's always something else I want some more ranks of. Even though I know realistically, I'm only ever going to use 2-3 skills with any reliability, and the rest will show up maybe once or twice in a campaign, I can't play a character with less than 6-7 skill points per level. (And that's playing like a Fighter, average character probably aims for closer to 10)

[Eldariel]

Too much int.

I'm a sucker for investing more than I should into intelligence on characters. Not because I want to roleplay some super genius, but because I can't get enough skill points. There's always something else I want some more ranks of. Even though I know realistically, I'm only ever going to use 2-3 skills with any reliability, and the rest will show up maybe once or twice in a campaign, I can't play a character with less than 6-7 skill points per level. (And that's playing like a Fighter, average character probably aims for closer to 10)

I 110% agree with this. It's the reason I always look for an excuse to start all my 3.5 characters with a level in Ranger, Rogue or some such. With casters I begrudgingly might skip on this and rely on spells to give me what I want but by and large I want at least 6+Int on the first level and 8+Int if I can at all afford it (Elf Ranger Racial Subs yay!). Of course, it's less of a prob in PF with the way Class Skill bonuses work and a smaller skill list overall.

I also loathe how cross-class skill buying is way too expensive and thus want Able Learner on basically anybody and loathe how it's Human-only, doubly so since I hate Humans.

[zilonox]

Then there's "Tippy Optimal" where all challenges are already trivial, they just don't know it yet.

So, Tippy is the Chuck Norris of 3.5? :smallwink:

I love the soulknife! I was excited when I heard it was moving from a PrC to a base class, but was disapointed to discover that it no longer manifested AND lost sneak attack. But still, the idea of a character who can create and shape his weapon any time he wants through sheer force of will is a concept I love!

[Emperor Tippy]

Too much int.

I'm a sucker for investing more than I should into intelligence on characters. Not because I want to roleplay some super genius, but because I can't get enough skill points. There's always something else I want some more ranks of. Even though I know realistically, I'm only ever going to use 2-3 skills with any reliability, and the rest will show up maybe once or twice in a campaign, I can't play a character with less than 6-7 skill points per level. (And that's playing like a Fighter, average character probably aims for closer to 10)
Agreed. I love my Int, can't actually remember the last time I played a character starting with less than 12 Int.



I 110% agree with this. It's the reason I always look for an excuse to start all my 3.5 characters with a level in Ranger, Rogue or some such. With casters I begrudgingly might skip on this and rely on spells to give me what I want but by and large I want at least 6+Int on the first level and 8+Int if I can at all afford it (Elf Ranger Racial Subs yay!). Of course, it's less of a prob in PF with the way Class Skill bonuses work and a smaller skill list overall.

I also loathe how cross-class skill buying is way too expensive and thus want Able Learner on basically anybody and loathe how it's Human-only, doubly so since I hate Humans.
Rogue 1/ Factotum 1 is my base for any skill monkey character (and most stealth characters actually). And so very much agreed on Able Learner.

Although I really think that it works better on elves. You've lived a hundred damn years when the game starts, in that kind of time span you should have basically picked up bits and pieces of a whole host of skills (if for no other reason than boredom), thus Able Learner fluffs well as more "yeah I was in a wood carving phase three decades back, with a bit of practice my old skills are returning" and the like.

[jedipilot24]

so very much agreed on Able Learner.

Although I really think that it works better on elves. You've lived a hundred damn years when the game starts, in that kind of time span you should have basically picked up bits and pieces of a whole host of skills (if for no other reason than boredom), thus Able Learner fluffs well as more "yeah I was in a wood carving phase three decades back, with a bit of practice my old skills are returning" and the like.

That's already covered by Elf Dilettante (http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-the-wild--84/elf-dilettante--839/).

[Emperor Tippy]

That's already covered by Elf Dilettante (http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-the-wild--84/elf-dilettante--839/).

Which is not remotely worth the feat pretty much ever.

[Eldariel]

Which is not remotely worth the feat pretty much ever.

Agreed, it's a fine idea but too bad the feat actually doesn't do anything. It's kinda like the terribad Jack-of-All-Trades (basically only ever worth it with Bardic Knack and even there it only saves you a handful of skillpoints from just becoming trained in all those skills; Nymph's Kiss is still worlds better). And it even has harsher prerequisites than Able Learner (which only requires race, no Int prerequisite).

[Svata]

Mr. Blast-Your-Face-Off calls his BoM his Belt of Awesomeness. He also has a Jockstrap of Awesomeness (it has an auto reset trap of Mage's Lucubration on it so that he gets one of his fireballs back every round).

Only Tippy can have an auto reset trap of Mage's Lubrication attached to one of his characters and still consider his character sub-optimal.


Sure. My blaster just throws out 900 points of damage, SR: No, 80 foot radius, penetrates fire immunity, fireballs. And he can do so twenty two times in a round. And if he wants then they deal the same damage again the next round.

And that too...

[Starmage21]

>_>
<_<

I like playing the True Necromancer

>_>
<_<

[Zanos]

Only Tippy can have an auto reset trap of Mage's Lubrication attached to one of his characters and still consider his character sub-optimal.
Careful with that spelling when you're discussing jock-straps.

[Svata]

Phone post. Autocorrect got me.

EDIT: leaving it for the humor value.

[Fates]

I'm a big fan of the Spellthief and the Hexblade. I just find it fun playing as a character who's basically just a warrior/thief who dabbles in witchcraft.

Spellthief may be fairly rubbish, but on the rare occasions when your spell-stealing works to great effect and you destroy a caster with his own magic is just too satisfying. Hexblades are fun because I love stacking debuffs to turn my enemies into cannon fodder.

I'm also quite fond of charisma. I never dump charisma, because I can't for the life of me roleplay an uncharismatic character. I never dump intelligence either- usually it's wisdom that takes a hit.

Edit: Hey hey! Name change just kicked in. Good show.

[Blackhawk748]

Playing Half orcs, seriously who thought it was a good idea to make a player race that got NOTHING other than 2 negatives with one positive? not even a +2 to intimidate? something???

Recently ive switched to Rankki Hobgoblins from KoK, +2 Str -2 Dex +2 Con -2 Int, +2 on Search Spot, Listen and Survival and low light vision no LA. It always makes me sad that the Half orc isnt this nice

[XmonkTad]

The Mad Alchemist feat from PHBII. Requires a very situational feat, and adds 1d6 damage and a way to turn a tanglefoot bag (30gp) into a bag of marbles. Still, it has a lot of flavor.

[GybeMark]

I love weaker/character-appropriate weapons over theoretically-better weapons. My barbarian has her greatclub and to if you try to convince her that a greataxe is "better" then she'll give you a bonk!:smallsmile:

[Psyren]

>_>
<_<

I like playing the True Necromancer

>_>
<_<

*beats savagely*



Edit: Hey hey! Name change just kicked in. Good show.

Sorcery! Who were you?

[Blackhawk748]

Run necromancer buddy run! and i have seen a True Necro work, but good lord the amount of effort required is nuts

[Fates]

Playing Half orcs, seriously who thought it was a good idea to make a player race that got NOTHING other than 2 negatives with one positive? not even a +2 to intimidate? something???

Recently ive switched to Rankki Hobgoblins from KoK, +2 Str -2 Dex +2 Con -2 Int, +2 on Search Spot, Listen and Survival and low light vision no LA. It always makes me sad that the Half orc isnt this nice

I always just waive the Int penalty, and replace the charisma penalty with a penalty to charisma checks when dealing with humans, orcs, dwarves, and elves. That usually clears things up.

I mean, really. Why the hell would half-orcs lose intelligence? The game actually assumes that they're raised by humans, so they shouldn't be any less intelligent than humans are. Giving mortal races a mental ability penalty or bonus and then not making it based on upbringing is gross. It's D&D eugenics.

[Blackhawk748]

this is why i give my players the choice, they take ONE penalty. The joke is they are either ugly or stupid, but not both lol

[Emperor Tippy]

Only Tippy can have an auto reset trap of Mage's Lubrication attached to one of his characters and still consider his character sub-optimal.
I'll be honest, that's what I call that spell as well. I have to consciously remember to fix it when I post on here.


And that too...

It's a blaster, ergo it is a distinctly suboptimal wizard. And its even a suboptimal blaster to be honest.

[Greenish]

I love weaker/character-appropriate weapons over theoretically-better weapons. My barbarian has her greatclub and to if you try to convince her that a greataxe is "better" then she'll give you a bonk!:smallsmile:The only significant advantage greataxe has over greatclub is that d12 rolls better.

[Blackhawk748]

Tippy, i am convinced that you are the only person who would call 900 damage per fireball suboptimal, hell i really only play blasters and im not entirely sure how you did that, but dont tell me! i probably couldnt make the Will save to prevent my head from exploding lol

[Callin]

I know if I pulled out 200 damage from a wizard I would be accused of breaking the game. If I did it on a Melee it would be all good. :smallamused:

My group is weird. They dont like casters to be able to do anything. Clerics... they heal. Wizards blast and you better not be Optimal about it.

[Spore]

Another thing: Small melee characters without weapon finesse. There is just something very satisfying to down a Huge Earth elemental with a Halfling.

No Belkar-ing! Valiant shining knight here!

[Callin]

Yea my bro played a very fun Halfling Barbarian dual wielding Maces. Toe Basher and Knee Smasher.

Tons O Fun

[Bryconium]

Evocation and direct damage. Who doesn't love blowing up a battlefield.
With fire.
Lots of fire.

[Greenish]

Another thing: Small melee characters without weapon finesse. There is just something very satisfying to down a Huge Earth elemental with a Halfling.I had a goblin warblade waving about a greatsword. The campaign died pretty much instantly, but he was a funny guy.

[Talderas]

Run necromancer buddy run! and i have seen a True Necro work, but good lord the amount of effort required is nuts

The worst thing about True Necromancer is that it's a prestige class that's worse than a base class (Dread Necromancer) that does the same schtick and stupidly better.

--

Ultimately, anything other than a Tippyverse wizard is suboptimal however we can look at things and call one option or another suboptimal. TWF is suboptimal compared to THF. Fighter is suboptimal compared to Warblade. So on and so forth.

[Particle_Man]

Warlock 20 for style. Hexblade.

Right now in Pathfinder, an elven monk. I have a bow! I always have it out. I just kick things a lot in meelee. :smallsmile:

Recently, Stonechild has taken some space in my imagination. Heck, I am idly dreaming of a half-bronze dragon stonechild (and I don't know if that is even rules-legal, or whether it would be a dragon or an outsider). That would be +7 LA! But I would be dragon-blooded (I think?) and could spend a feat to get wings to glide around on (and later, via another feat, to fly with).

[Zanos]

I know if I pulled out 200 damage from a wizard I would be accused of breaking the game. If I did it on a Melee it would be all good. :smallamused:

My group is weird. They dont like casters to be able to do anything. Clerics... they heal. Wizards blast and you better not be Optimal about it.
In a mid optimization setting, a blaster wizard takes the one thing a mundane melee character can contribute with and slaps them in the face with it.

When I play casters I generally make it a point to not do too much damage, as I wouldn't want to take their niche away. They're pretty good at it, anyway.

[Karnith]

I like playing the True Necromancer
Me too, buddy, me too.
She's a harsh mistress, though.
I'll also say that I like the Yathrinshee a great deal. I even combine the two.

[VariSami]

My weakness is most definitely a love for theurge type prestige classes. While I know that losing any amount of primary spellcasting to qualify is a pain, and one can hardly ever utilize all the powers one receives from dualcasting, I simply like the idea of people tapping two different sources of (more or less) ultimate power at once. I am also a sucker for versatility.

[12owlbears]

Halfling melee fighters

[Eldariel]

Ultimately, anything other than a Tippyverse wizard is suboptimal however we can look at things and call one option or another suboptimal.

Honestly, there are faster ways to ultimate power than Wizard. Manipulate Form is the easiest; probably best acquired through Pazuzu (skill check you can do on level 1), then Shapechange/Wish/Gate early acquisition (I don't remember when you can get the feat-based spells to 9s by earliest? Maybe 3? There was some WBL limit), then Metamorphosis with Metamorphic Transfer (distinct advantage over Polymorph in that the form is only limited by manifester level, not by HD and caster level), then Illithid Savant (I can't think of an under level 8 character with it off the top of my head). Crafting + Crafting Reducers should also be in there somewhere, they can get you Shapechange/Wish/Gate quite early.

But yeah, point being, the ways to gain all abilities in existence (or also inexistent ones) can be done surprisingly early, with a wide variety of bases. Ultimate power isn't that hard to get for those who know where to look (and if you're running off pure TO; in a normal setting, Pun-Pun would club you in the face if you try since it's his sole province - plot twist, Pun-Pun is Ao).

[lytokk]

CA Ninja. Was seriously the most fun I ever had playing. Human Ninja 16/ Ranger 1, which was only for FE (dragon) and the track feat. Didn't go into this character with a plan for levelling, was just told the party needed a rogue and I felt like doing something with a different flavor. TWF with ninja-to's, out of I think oriental adventures which was house ruled in to being a proficient weapon for the ninja. Ended up having wasted several feats on improved feint, once I realized that the ninja's invisibility didn't specify that it went away if the character attacked. Weapon Finesse too. DM made me take the acrobatics feat to fit with the flavor of the character. Also the first time I played an evil character, which everyone in the party knew, yet still put up with me and my evil ways.

[Coidzor]

Me too, buddy, me too.
She's a harsh mistress, though.
I'll also say that I like the Yathrinshee a great deal. I even combine the two.

Why is that? :smallconfused:

[Karnith]

Why is that? :smallconfused:
Are you asking why I like Yathrinshee, or why I combine the two?

(And yes, I know that as-written you can't actually qualify for both without Heretic of the Faith or somesuch, but a Yathrinshee not being able to get into True Necromancer, or vice-versa, because Kiaranselee doesn't offer the Death domain is quite silly.)

[Valwyn]

Reading this thread I just realized all my character ideas are suboptimal:

-Healer cleric
-Spontaneous casters
-Battle sorcerers (usually into gish)
-Evokers
-Archers
-Knife-thrower
-Str-based sneak attacker
-Warmage
-Healer
-Unarmed fighting
-Theurges
-Warlocks

I just feel these sort of characters are a lot more thematic than optimized characters.

[Coidzor]

Are you asking why I like Yathrinshee, or why I combine the two?

(And yes, I know that as-written you can't actually qualify for both without Heretic of the Faith or somesuch, but a Yathrinshee not being able to get into True Necromancer, or vice-versa, because Kiaranselee doesn't offer the Death domain is quite silly.)

I suppose both, really.

I'd have thought it was due to a fix of True Necromancer's prerequisites to change it from Death Domain to any of the various death-and-undeath-related domains. Though if you're fixing the prerequisites...

[Callin]

That is one thing that does bother me a bit. How is a Battle Sorc sub optimal. I understand that Sorc is not as versatile as a Wizard and a Battle Sorc gets 1 less spell per spell level. But gains Medium BaB, the ability to cast in light armor, d8 HD, and a Martial Weapon Prof.

Honestly what more could a Gish ask for. Then you just prestige out like we do with all the classes. LOL

[Karnith]

I suppose both, really.
On a fluff level, I really like necromancy, particularly mixing various forms of necromancy to become a master of life and death, and I also like chosen servants of deities gaining special powers to emulate the powers of their gods. Kiaranselee is a neat deity because she embodies rage lasting beyond the grave. I'll also admit that I have not quite outgrown my obsession with Drow. Yathrinshee combines all of these things into one neat package. Mechanically, Yathrinshee also has some awesome class features, albeit offset by terrible spellcasting progression and similarly-awful prereqs.

I mix True Necromancer and Yathrinshee for mechanical reasons (I mean, they fit together well enough fluffwise, but...). Yathrinshee 1 gives you the Necromancer ability, which lets you stack your caster levels when casting Necromancy spells (Theurgic Specialist, from Dragon Magazine #325, also lets you do this, but it's, you know, Dragon, and can mess with early entry tricks). This actually almost makes the classes worth taking, as for example a (Lesser) Drow Wizard 1/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 1/True Necromancer 5/Yathrinshee 3/Mystic Theurge +7 will get divine 9ths and arcane 8ths, with a CL in the 30s for Necromancy spells, higher if you use Practiced Spellcaster.

[Greenish]

That is one thing that does bother me a bit. How is a Battle Sorc sub optimal. I understand that Sorc is not as versatile as a Wizard and a Battle Sorc gets 1 less spell per spell level. But gains Medium BaB, the ability to cast in light armor, d8 HD, and a Martial Weapon Prof.

Honestly what more could a Gish ask for. Then you just prestige out like we do with all the classes. LOLThe thinking is that once you prestige out, the medium BAB and d8 HD won't really help you anymore, but the less spells known continues to hurt, I guess.

[Eldariel]

That is one thing that does bother me a bit. How is a Battle Sorc sub optimal. I understand that Sorc is not as versatile as a Wizard and a Battle Sorc gets 1 less spell per spell level. But gains Medium BaB, the ability to cast in light armor, d8 HD, and a Martial Weapon Prof.

Honestly what more could a Gish ask for. Then you just prestige out like we do with all the classes. LOL

Well, it's not just the prestiging out; gish also needs spells known too. Battle Sorcs hits it where it hurts; take a starved class, starve it even further and give it some frills, call it a day.

Battle Sorc is like offering a parched man some booze; sure, it seems like it's giving you what you want but it's actually just binding the what little water you have left in you to finish the job the desert began.

[Blackhawk748]

Battle Sorcs work fine for basic Gishing, its just that with a 2 lvl fighter a dip a normal Sorc can get into Abjurant Champion and be ahead spell wise for his career. I still love the Battle Sorc though

[Hyena]

Sword and board. Also, stealthers.

[Zanos]

The thinking is that once you prestige out, the medium BAB and d8 HD won't really help you anymore, but the less spells known continues to hurt, I guess.
Battle sorcs sacrifice a third of the their highest spells known, and Sorc itself has no worthwhile class features, so you should be PrCing out, especially if you're a gish. So you sacrificed spells known for maybe 1/2 more BaB and a couple more hit points.

[Rhaegar14]

That is one thing that does bother me a bit. How is a Battle Sorc sub optimal. I understand that Sorc is not as versatile as a Wizard and a Battle Sorc gets 1 less spell per spell level. But gains Medium BaB, the ability to cast in light armor, d8 HD, and a Martial Weapon Prof.

Honestly what more could a Gish ask for. Then you just prestige out like we do with all the classes. LOL

If you don't plan to Prestige Class out (for instance, if PrCs are banned in your campaign for some ungodly reason), then Battle Sorcerer is pretty good.

But if you are leaving Sorcerer, let's look at what Battle Sorcerer actually gets you. I'm going to compare a Battle Sorcerer 6 entry to an arbitrary PrC to a Sorcerer 6/Fighter 1 entry, but we are looking at what you get only from the Sorcerer levels.

-- 14 hit points, on average
-- Light Armor, which pretty much means nothing since Mage Armor gives you just as much AC as a Chain Shirt (and will not stack with it).
-- One weapon proficiency
-- Caster Level +1 (since you no longer need the Fighter dip)
-- BAB +1.5

For this, you lose a LOT of spells known, which are undoubtedly the Sorcerer's most valuable resource. It's really not worth it from an optimization standpoint.

One thing I will say in the Battle Sorcerer's favor, though; it is much, MUCH better at allowing you to play a gish from level 1. When I played a Sorcerer/Crusader/JPM gish a while ago, I pretty much took Sleep and Color Spray and spent 5-6 levels pretending I was a battlefield controller because I was simply incapable of surviving melee.

[Talya]

:smallwink:

Hey, that's what I saw the first time I read it, too.

[ben-zayb]

Halfling melee fighters
By that, do you mean you love Dual-Dagger Halfling Barbarians?

Sword and board. Also, stealthers.
Oh, yes! Vecna Blooded, HiPS, Darkstalker, 200k+ Items and the like, just to be a sneak.

Another suboptimal choices that I like are the Setting Sun maneuvers, specially when used by a small-sized, dex-based initiator.

I once made a non-caster Poison-crafter PC that I really loved, at least until he accidentally killed himself.

Silly Realization: chances are, any build you love is sub-optimal, from a Tippy-Op point of view :smallbiggrin:

[Zweisteine]

Elves. They embody all that it is to live in a fantasy world, but they lose con for dex. Also, they don't make particularly amazing wizards.

[Talya]

-Vow of Poverty on a Druid. (Less suboptimal than VOP on anything else, but still suboptimal.)
-Staying in Bard all the way to 20 instead of hopping to Sublime Chord.
-Sorcerers instead of Wizards
-The 3.5 Dervish Class (I've never played it...it just has so much style)
-Champion of Corellon Larethian (Also never played it.)

And most importantly:


Themed characters. Fire sorcerer? Yes please. Undeath Oracle? Yes! Paladin as specialised Demon Slayer? Oh yes.

They are very unflexible, but I love having a main motif. Having a single theme to your character also makes him/her more memorable. Instead of "Spore played another sorcerer with magic missile, confusion and black tentacles." it is: "Spore played this insane pyromaniac. He stood NO chance against the fire elemental and anything remotely from the planes, but boy, did he burn those soldiers to ashes."

A thousand times this. ALL my characters are themed.

[Emperor Tippy]

Elves. They embody all that it is to live in a fantasy world, but they lose con for dex. Also, they don't make particularly amazing wizards.

Straight elves are still better than humans but Gray Elves make about the best LA 0 race for wizards in the entire game.

[Talya]

Straight elves are still better than humans but Gray Elves make about the best LA 0 race for wizards in the entire game.

Psst-- most people can't DCS.

Also, I initially read that as...


Straight elves are still better than humans but Gay Elves make about the best LA 0 race for wizards in the entire game.

[Coidzor]

Psst-- most people can't DCS.

Also, I initially read that as...

Dragonlance Campaign Setting? Oh, no, wait, Dark Chaos Shuffle. I was thinking he was referring to Elven Generalist myself. x.x

Oh, you guise. :smallamused:

[Zanos]

Psst-- most people can't DCS.
+2 Int, qualifies for Faerie Mysteries Intiate, and qualifies for Elven generalist. Throw on domain wizard, too. That's pretty solid without any Tippy shenanigans.

[Drachasor]

I have a soft spot for the Warlock, though I wish they got more invocations (like a new one every level).

I also have played a few Gishes that never made it past level 6.

And I like having skills. My diviner puts points in Linguistics despite the fact he technically has no need for that (Edit: This is Pathfinder so Linguistics gives languages). Same with random points in some craft skills.

[Ionbound]

Got another one I forgot. Arcane Archer. So nice to be able to attach arrows to your spells. So painful to lose 9th level spells.

[Talya]

+2 Int, qualifies for Faerie Mysteries Intiate, and qualifies for Elven generalist. Throw on domain wizard, too. That's pretty solid without any Tippy shenanigans.

I was actually referring to his first comment about "straight elves." +2 dex, -2 con for a wizard is horrible. Elven Generalist makes a great generalist, but reading optimization boards, you'd assume any generalist was a bad idea.

[Zanos]

I was actually referring to his first comment about "straight elves." +2 dex, -2 con for a wizard is horrible. Elven Generalist makes a great generalist, but reading optimization boards, you'd assume any generalist was a bad idea.
Ah. Yeah, regular ol' elves are kind of crappy for anything. Losing con just sucks for anyone unless you're undead.

And honestly, I can barely bring myself to bring one school, let alone two or three. With just enchantment banned on my current character I miss having charms/dominates for loosening tongues, and heroism/greater are amazing buffs. Voice of the Dragon fills the first hole, though.

[Talya]

And honestly, I can barely bring myself to bring one school, let alone two or three. With just enchantment banned on my current character I miss having charms/dominates for loosening tongues, and heroism/greater are amazing buffs. Voice of the Dragon fills the first hole, though.

Diviners lose only one school, and there are ways of getting a single school back.

That said, I'd probably ban Evocation if I had to. Oh, there are some decent spells in evocation, but you can replicate the entire school up to level 7 spells with shadow evocation. Are they quite as good? No. But it's one of the weaker schools to start with.

That's off topic.

What's ON topic is we'd probably both pick elven generalist before we specialized, because losing schools is not fun. So...suboptimal, but there you go.

[Venger]

Ah. Yeah, regular ol' elves are kind of crappy for anything. Losing con just sucks for anyone unless you're undead.

And honestly, I can barely bring myself to bring one school, let alone two or three. With just enchantment banned on my current character I miss having charms/dominates for loosening tongues, and heroism/greater are amazing buffs. Voice of the Dragon fills the first hole, though.

Step 1) be diviner (I know)
step 2) take spell reprieve. pick spell from your banned school. it's no longer banned
step 3) take item reprieve. spell trigger items/ spell completion items from your banned school can now be used normally
step 4) take arcane transfiguration. your banned school is now unbanned.

that's how you become a specialist wizard without being a specialist wizard.

no one does this because it requires 10 levels of diviner and requires you to roll a diviner, but it's still an option if you really hate banning schools.

if you have some kind of way of only banning one school (short of being a diviner) ban evoc. it's the one that you can drop most easily if you really enjoy enchantment. with the orb of x line being conj, evoc has no real reason to exist.

[Talya]

Step 1) be diviner (I know)
step 2) take spell reprieve. pick spell from your banned school. it's no longer banned
step 3) take item reprieve. spell trigger items/ spell completion items from your banned school can now be used normally
step 4) take arcane transfiguration. your banned school is now unbanned.

that's how you become a specialist wizard without being a specialist wizard.

no one does this because it requires 10 levels of diviner and requires you to roll a diviner, but it's still an option if you really hate banning schools.
.
There are similar options in Lost Empires of Faerun that allow you to get back a school for ANY specialist.

[Karnith]

There are similar options in Lost Empires of Faerun that allow you to get back a school for ANY specialist.
The feats Venger mentioned are the ones in Lost Empires of Faerun. The reason to use Diviner specifically is that those feats only unban one school, and hence a Diviner with all three of them will effectively have no banned schools.

Any other specialist can take them, but will only get one school back and still have one banned.

[Talya]

The feats Venger mentioned are the ones in Lost Empires of Faerun. The reason to use Diviner specifically is that those feats only unban one school, and hence a Diviner with all three of them will effectively have no banned schools.

Any other specialist can still take them, but will still end up having a banned school.

Ah, that confused me. I thought he was referencing some feats that only worked for diviners.

If you can't find a single school you can do without, you're not looking hard enough.

Most people will pick enchantment*. I'd pick either Evocation (replicable by shadow spells) or Necromancy (you lose a couple good spells, but it's the theming! I can easily find better things to do than cast necromancy spells, anyway.)

*- Another suboptimal thing I love: Enchanting spells!

[Zanos]

Step 1) be diviner (I know)
step 2) take spell reprieve. pick spell from your banned school. it's no longer banned
step 3) take item reprieve. spell trigger items/ spell completion items from your banned school can now be used normally
step 4) take arcane transfiguration. your banned school is now unbanned.

that's how you become a specialist wizard without being a specialist wizard.

no one does this because it requires 10 levels of diviner and requires you to roll a diviner, but it's still an option if you really hate banning schools.

if you have some kind of way of only banning one school (short of being a diviner) ban evoc. it's the one that you can drop most easily if you really enjoy enchantment. with the orb of x line being conj, evoc has no real reason to exist.
Everything I want to do with enchantment can be replicated with voice of the dragon, and Evocation has gems like Resilient Sphere, Wall of Force, and Contingency. I'd rather not have people get Will saves to disbelieve the things separating me from their pointy sticks, and I couldn't get my DM to buy shadow contingency anyway.

Still, just browsing pretty much every list I find stuff that I think "huh, be cool if I could pick that up." I know it might not be great or worth it to actually cast stuff from every school due to the overlap and general weakness of some of the other schools, but still. Don't know whatcha got till it's gone...

Also, I love necromancy on neutral characters. I typically play pretty morally grey characters, and might as well put those corpses to work. Not doing me any good in the ground. Plus, zombie dragon mounts. Woo!

[XmonkTad]

I forgot to mention: defiant 10/ur-priest 10! A character built around not liking gods but defiant doesn't add all that much for 10 levels. Especially if you try to get defiant levels by trading in 9 levels of cleric all at the beginning of your career. "Oh, I almost had true seeing, but now I can plane shift 3 times per day as an SLA!" Your party won't join your crusade against the divine until you can buff again.

[Blackhawk748]

Being a vampire, that LA........ just ow, but trying to be a Vampire Count leading an undead army is just WAY to tempting. I did pull this off a few times, i love Dread Necro btw, and my DM no longer allows me to play Dread Necro Vampires. My zombie Hydra was to cool :smalltongue:

[AMFV]

Step 1) be diviner (I know)
step 2) take spell reprieve. pick spell from your banned school. it's no longer banned
step 3) take item reprieve. spell trigger items/ spell completion items from your banned school can now be used normally
step 4) take arcane transfiguration. your banned school is now unbanned.

that's how you become a specialist wizard without being a specialist wizard.

no one does this because it requires 10 levels of diviner and requires you to roll a diviner, but it's still an option if you really hate banning schools.

if you have some kind of way of only banning one school (short of being a diviner) ban evoc. it's the one that you can drop most easily if you really enjoy enchantment. with the orb of x line being conj, evoc has no real reason to exist.

It's also worth noting that the Prestige class Knight of the Thorn from DCS will give you divination specialization without any loss of schools, and it can even give it to you on top of another specialization. So that's even more extra spells. Not really a suboptimal choice, just a pretty amazing one.

[Vhaidara]

Searing spell will allow you to burn fire elementals to death.

Two friends and I want to run a trio of characters: Triplets with a wizard, a sorcerer, and a warmage. I'm the warmage, and I use exclusively fire spells with Searing Spell. One guy is the Sorcerer and he uses only cold spells with Piercing Cold. The third is the wizard and he uses only Electricity spells with a homebrewed version of the other two for electricity. And we will constantly bicker about who is best.

P.S. It's me

As far as my favorite sub optimal, blast mages are definitely on the list. I just find battlefield control lacks the epic, flashy nature of most high level evocation.

I wish I could bring myself to play a monk, but I can't.

My biggest sub optimal choice is that I hate dipping. I will usually follow a couple of level setups by level 20.
10 base class, 10 prestige A
10 base, 5 prestige A, 5 prestige B
5 base, 5 prestige A, 10 prestige B

etc. Unless It's a gish, in which case I dip fighter or ranger on wizards and 2 paladin on a sorcerer.

[Plerumque]

Truenamer. If you can pull it off, it is glorious.

[Talya]

Not really a suboptimal choice, just a pretty amazing one.

That's actually the opposite of a suboptimal choice.

[TripleD]

Kobolds. Anything and everything related to Kobolds.

I know, I know: Pun-Pun, dragon wrought, etc. But I like to play a Kobold As Written. In fact, in my current campaign I'm trying to play the most stereotypical Kobold ever: a lawful evil fighter/scout who wields a long spear and has maxed out Profession(Mining) and Craft(Trapmaking). Eventually I plan to get ino Combat Trapsmith.

[AMFV]

That's actually the opposite of a suboptimal choice.

Yep, mostly I just figured I'd present it since we were talking about gaining divination specialization. Although it is actually is kind of suboptimal under most entries, since it needs heavy armor proficiency and martial proficiency to enter. So you're losing a caster level to gain a free specialization. And possibly more spells known as a sorcerer. I'm not sure if that's optimal or not, it's definitely on the fence.

Also to take full advantage of most of what the prestige class offers it requires you to be a gish, which is suboptimal. That's probably my poison as far as suboptimal stuff goes. I really love gishy wizards.

[Venger]

There are similar options in Lost Empires of Faerun that allow you to get back a school for ANY specialist.

The feats Venger mentioned are the ones in Lost Empires of Faerun. The reason to use Diviner specifically is that those feats only unban one school, and hence a Diviner with all three of them will effectively have no banned schools.

Any other specialist can take them, but will only get one school back and still have one banned.

Yeah. since he said he didn't like banning any schools, and diviners only need to ban one, this gets access to all 8 schools along with a couple extra div slots.


If you can't find a single school you can do without, you're not looking hard enough.

Most people will pick enchantment*. I'd pick either Evocation (replicable by shadow spells) or Necromancy (you lose a couple good spells, but it's the theming! I can easily find better things to do than cast necromancy spells, anyway.)

*- Another suboptimal thing I love: Enchanting spells!

While I agree with you (bye evocation!), he said he wanted all schools.

I agree about shadow evoc.

While mechanically, necro's the weakest after evoc and ench, I really do enjoy it since it has a number of fun effects, even if most of them don't work on half the monsters in the game, allow saves, and often give SR to add insult to injury. animate dead does sort of suck, but having a giant flanking buddy for your team's beef or sneak is fun in a low-op game.


Everything I want to do with enchantment can be replicated with voice of the dragon, and Evocation has gems like Resilient Sphere, Wall of Force, and Contingency. I'd rather not have people get Will saves to disbelieve the things separating me from their pointy sticks, and I couldn't get my DM to buy shadow contingency anyway.

wait what?

voice of the dragon is pretty fun, but it's no dominate/mindraep.

all of those can also be replaced very easily (aside from the obvious shadow evoc since you don't seem to want to shadowcraft, which is fine)

resilient sphere= bands of steel. plus now you can actually kill them instead of rendering them invulnerable to attack

wall of force= almost all the other walls are conj. is there ever really a circumstance where you need a wall of force instead of stone/ooze/smoke/sand/ice/bones/eyes/arms/etc?

and as far as contingency goes, there's always contingent spells.

what do you mean "buy contingency?" you mean he houseruled no contingency? or just no shadow contingency? because the latter is flagrantly against the rules.


Still, just browsing pretty much every list I find stuff that I think "huh, be cool if I could pick that up." I know it might not be great or worth it to actually cast stuff from every school due to the overlap and general weakness of some of the other schools, but still. Don't know whatcha got till it's gone...

Also, I love necromancy on neutral characters. I typically play pretty morally grey characters, and might as well put those corpses to work. Not doing me any good in the ground. Plus, zombie dragon mounts. Woo!

sure, no objection to that. those 3 feats I mentioned'll do the job (at terrible cost, but still)

I too enjoy big zombies. they're great for lockdown without spending spls. remorhaz zombie is best zombie.

[Joe the Rat]

Kobolds. Anything and everything related to Kobolds.

I know, I know: Pun-Pun, dragon wrought, etc. But I like to play a Kobold As Written. In fact, in my current campaign I'm trying to play the most stereotypical Kobold ever: a lawful evil fighter/scout who wields a long spear and has maxed out Profession(Mining) and Craft(Trapmaking). Eventually I plan to get ino Combat Trapsmith.
/Salute/ Good on you.

I would have added kobold, except I haven't had a chance to run one in this edition. My last Kobold idea was shot down. I got Lizardfolk instead. Fear my racial jumping bonus, puny mammals!

[Harrow]

I like Truenamers and Shadowcasters.

I'm also a fan of making 'themed' characters, particularly casters and most often based around Magic Missile.

Alchemy and Poisons are also awesome. I wish poison scaled with level better, and I wish alchemical things scaled at all.

The Gnome Calculus can help, but only fires 1/round. I think you can either use Aptitude to make Rapid Reload apply by RAW or make it apply without Aptitude by RAI, but it still just doesn't get the range of other ranged options and ranged fighting isn't especially good in D&D. Maybe if most encounters allowed you 3-5 turns of pot shots before opponents got in melee range that would be one thing, but the GC doesn't get enough range to take advantage of that anyway. It's still fun to fling four +1 Flaming Acid Flasks into a group of zombies.

[Zanos]

Yeah. since he said he didn't like banning any schools, and diviners only need to ban one, this gets access to all 8 schools along with a couple extra div slots.

I can live with banning a school. Some small part of me just cries a little bit.


While mechanically, necro's the weakest after evoc and ench, I really do enjoy it since it has a number of fun effects, even if most of them don't work on half the monsters in the game, allow saves, and often give SR to add insult to injury. animate dead does sort of suck, but having a giant flanking buddy for your team's beef or sneak is fun in a low-op game.
Necromancy has some of my favorite nasty spells. Avasculate and Magic Jar are awesome. Not to mention Astral ****ing Projection. Animate Dead sucks if you don't set it up right. If you can manage to get a desecrated altar and whip up some of your own corpses, you can make some nasty stuff. Awakened Undead regain their Ex traits and get feats and skills, and Dragons have no HD cap for their Zombie/Dragon templates. You can make them work if you put some effort into it. You can also make your own corpses if you Wall Of Stone + Stone Shape + Stone To Flesh(explicitly turns a statue into a corpse, which animate dead targets.)




wait what?

voice of the dragon is pretty fun, but it's no dominate/mindraep.

Dominate sucks. "Actions against it's nature" include a very large number of things you would want creatures you have dominated to do. Mindrape is amazing, but it's still just a mind-affecting will-save or lose. Out of combat, you can get other ways to cast it, even if you have enchantment banned. The only thing I find enchantment actually useful for is a couple decent buffs(heroism, greater heroism), and interrogation of NPCs you've captured. Suggestion works just fine for interrogation, so Voice of the Dragon covers pretty much everything I want out of enchantment. I can cover buffs with pretty much every other school, there are many will save or suck/lose/dies elsewhere. Mindrape is the only effect that's really sorely missed, and if you can throw out 9th level spells you can just abuse MoP with several ranks in UMD to activate a staff to create your perfectly loyal minions.



all of those can also be replaced very easily (aside from the obvious shadow evoc since you don't seem to want to shadowcraft, which is fine)

Shadowcraft mage isn't really a class you can just dip into, you pretty much have to build one from the getgo. Would also require me to play a filthy gnome.


resilient sphere= bands of steel. plus now you can actually kill them instead of rendering them invulnerable to attack

Resilient sphere isn't for offense, although I suppose it could be used that way in a pinch.


wall of force= almost all the other walls are conj. is there ever really a circumstance where you need a wall of force instead of stone/ooze/smoke/sand/ice/bones/eyes/arms/etc?

Yes. A Wall of Force can't be broken by big meaty things slamming their fists on it. Props for mentioning wall of eyes, though. It's creepy as hell and the cross-planar sight effect is amazing.


and as far as contingency goes, there's always contingent spells.

That costs a feat. And gold. And Experience. Even if you take the feat, contingency is great for contingencies you expect to get triggered a lot.


what do you mean "buy contingency?" you mean he houseruled no contingency? or just no shadow contingency? because the latter is flagrantly against the rules.

No Shadow Contingency. It is rules legal, but you have to somehow convince your DM that you can fail a will save against your own shadow spell.



I too enjoy big zombies. they're great for lockdown without spending spls. remorhaz zombie is best zombie.
I just like having a dragon mount without all the hassle of them having their own stupid opinions about everything. Scares the hell out of people too, which is nice. Fear and respect in healthy doses. Respect from killing the damn thing, fear from riding it back to town.

Anyway, my original point was that I really like the concept of a generalist Wizard. It seems kind of silly to insist that you're a master of arcane magic when you've cut yourself off of 2/3 entire branches of it. It's not that I really miss the effects of the schools so badly, it's just that when someone asks my wizard about the school of enchantment his only response is "durrrr."

[Venger]

I can live with banning a school. Some small part of me just cries a little bit.
Fair, I can see that.



Necromancy has some of my favorite nasty spells. Avasculate and Magic Jar are awesome. Not to mention Astral ****ing Projection. Animate Dead sucks if you don't set it up right. If you can manage to get a desecrated altar and whip up some of your own corpses, you can make some nasty stuff. Awakened Undead regain their Ex traits and get feats and skills, and Dragons have no HD cap for their Zombie/Dragon templates. You can make them work if you put some effort into it. You can also make your own corpses if you Wall Of Stone + Stone Shape + Stone To Flesh(explicitly turns a statue into a corpse, which animate dead targets.)
Dude, I love necro, it's hilarious. I just meant that numberswise it's not that strong if you don't specialize in it somewhat.

the stone sculpture thing is on... shaky ground RAWwise. even if there's some support for it, I've never seen or heard of a dm who'd let it fly.



Dominate sucks. "Actions against it's nature" include a very large number of things you would want creatures you have dominated to do. Mindrape is amazing, but it's still just a mind-affecting will-save or lose. Out of combat, you can get other ways to cast it, even if you have enchantment banned. The only thing I find enchantment actually useful for is a couple decent buffs(heroism, greater heroism), and interrogation of NPCs you've captured. Suggestion works just fine for interrogation, so Voice of the Dragon covers pretty much everything I want out of enchantment. I can cover buffs with pretty much every other school, there are many will save or suck/lose/dies elsewhere. Mindrape is the only effect that's really sorely missed, and if you can throw out 9th level spells you can just abuse MoP with several ranks in UMD to activate a staff to create your perfectly loyal minions.
If you use dominate as a combat spell, then yes, dominate does sort of suck.

I always viewed it as more of a story spell though, pulling nobles' puppet strings and stuff rather than making monsters kill each other.

agree on other points.


Shadowcraft mage isn't really a class you can just dip into, you pretty much have to build one from the getgo. Would also require me to play a filthy gnome.
Right. your guy didn't sound like a shadowcraft mage (since as you said they need to be built from the beginning) so I figured it wasn't a possibility. shadowcraft magi can get their percentage for illusions over 100, so that makes enemies failing their saves very desirable. lol, gno love for gnomes.



Resilient sphere isn't for offense, although I suppose it could be used that way in a pinch.
What.

How do you use resilient sphere defensively? it blocks LoE, and you're not a manifester, so burrowing power is off the table. at best, it gives you a round or two to buff, assuming your enemy can't teleport/ethereal/incorporeal/dispel magic/disintegrate/shadow form/etc. point is, there's quite a few ways around it for the enemy. while you could easily use these yourself to get inside theirs once you pokeball them, it'd sort of defeat the purpose of you casting the spell.


Yes. A Wall of Force can't be broken by big meaty things slamming their fists on it. Props for mentioning wall of eyes, though. It's creepy as hell and the cross-planar sight effect is amazing.

while that may be true, it's hardly insurmountable.

even ignoring circumstances that aren't perfectly ideal (inside tunnels/dungeons) such as outside, in a room with a big ceiling, in the air, or underwater, where enemies can just... walk around it (or burrow, or jump/fly/swim/etc)

it can't be shaped, the way some other wall spells can, and it can't be made into a dome to imprison enemies (if you're playing a low-op game where you're fighting an enemy that can't burrow with a poor str, low enough size to be pokeballed, and no magic that can either teleport or destroy rock or burrow)

incorporeal creatures, teleporters, people who cast shadow form, and burrowers/ethereal doods can also get past it.

not saying that this isn't a problem most other wall spells have, but that wall of force doesn't really give anything that an equivalent (or sometimes even lower) wall spell cant' do.

I love wall of eyes, it's hilarious. no one ever expects it >:]


That costs a feat. And gold. And Experience. Even if you take the feat, contingency is great for contingencies you expect to get triggered a lot.
what? no it doesn't, you can just buy them, same as castings of any other spell.


No Shadow Contingency. It is rules legal, but you have to somehow convince your DM that you can fail a will save against your own shadow spell.


Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw
A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.

No convincing necessary; it's plain RAW.



I just like having a dragon mount without all the hassle of them having their own stupid opinions about everything. Scares the hell out of people too, which is nice. Fear and respect in healthy doses. Respect from killing the damn thing, fear from riding it back to town.
You'll certainly get no arguments from me there. This whole thread is about style over substance, and the metalness of riding up into the club like "whatup, I got a big dragon?" is incontestable. I enjoy tactics like this as well. "shock and awe" as it were.


Anyway, my original point was that I really like the concept of a generalist Wizard. It seems kind of silly to insist that you're a master of arcane magic when you've cut yourself off of 2/3 entire branches of it. It's not that I really miss the effects of the schools so badly, it's just that when someone asks my wizard about the school of enchantment his only response is "durrrr."

From an immersion point, this also makes sense. it's especially weird when there are certain spells that are very similar or identical:

npc"hey wizard, what's that?"
wizard"it's a wall of force"
npc"that's cool. can you make one of those?"
wizard"I cannot"
npc"what. you've made walls out of bones, ghosts, slime, fire, ice, and I think I saw you make one out of eyes that one time. how can you not make one out of force?"
wizard"I just can't"
npc"I saw you push a guy over with your mind that one time. that wasn't evoc? all the bullrushing stuff is"
wizard" of course not (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telekinesis.htm) that's clearly ridiculous.
(teleports off)
npc"wizards"

[white lancer]

I enjoy suboptimal race/class combinations, just to be different. Usually, that means Half-Orc. I have a Half-Orc Duskblade (focused on Knowledge Devotion, heh) and a Half-Orc Sorcerer right now, and they're a lot of fun.

[Zanos]

What.

How do you use resilient sphere defensively? it blocks LoE, and you're not a manifester, so burrowing power is off the table. at best, it gives you a round or two to buff, assuming your enemy can't teleport/ethereal/incorporeal/dispel magic/disintegrate/shadow form/etc. point is, there's quite a few ways around it for the enemy. while you could easily use these yourself to get inside theirs once you pokeball them, it'd sort of defeat the purpose of you casting the spell.

If you reduce your caster level such that it only has enough space to contain you, nothing else can teleport into it. I wouldn't usually prepare it, but it's an absolutely amazing contingency. It blocks loef, so you can have it go off to you being targeted with something particularly nasty. And incorporeal/ethereal creatures can't pass through force effects.



incorporeal creatures, teleporters, people who cast shadow form, and burrowers/ethereal doods can also get past it.

not saying that this isn't a problem most other wall spells have, but that wall of force doesn't really give anything that an equivalent (or sometimes even lower) wall spell cant' do.

[Force], so it does block incorporeal/ethereal creatures. I guess they could phase through the ground if your DM is clever, though. Anticipate Teleportation also makes for a hilarious counter for anyone trying to teleport through your walls, although it is admittedly situational.



what? no it doesn't, you can just buy them, same as castings of any other spell.


Yeah, they do have a market price, so that's true. Anyone knowing what my contingencies are strikes me as undesirable, though.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Actually, resilient sphere is a pretty solid defense. As a force effect it can't be bypassed by ethereal or incorporeal creatures. Shadow form certainly can't get by it since there's no openings in it. Dispel magic only works if you target the sphere itself. Attacks can't get through it at all. Except for teleport, disintegrate, and dispel magic it's pretty much an impervious bubble, and dispel magic still has a failure chance. It's an excellent way to buy some time and can be used to utterly deny any group of non-spellcasters unless they've got a rod of cancellation on them. It's not a perfect defense but nothing is.

[Venger]

If you reduce your caster level such that it only has enough space to contain you, nothing else can teleport into it. I wouldn't usually prepare it, but it's an absolutely amazing contingency. It blocks loef, so you can have it go off to you being targeted with something particularly nasty. And incorporeal/ethereal creatures can't pass through force effects.
oh, you mean have that up under contingency/contingent spell!

that's hilarious. better than wings of cover! which, incidentally, is another evocation [force] spell that's a real pity to miss out on.


[Force], so it does block incorporeal/ethereal creatures. I guess they could phase through the ground if your DM is clever, though. Anticipate Teleportation also makes for a hilarious counter for anyone trying to teleport through your walls, although it is admittedly situational.
While force does block ethereal/incorporeal creatures, that was what I was talking about (it's actually mentioned in wall of force's spell text.

you should never not have anticipate teleportation up once you're able to cast it.


Yeah, they do have a market price, so that's true. Anyone knowing what my contingencies are strikes me as undesirable, though.
well... wouldn't that be true no matter how you got contingent spells? (whether it's through contingency or craft contingent spell)


Shadow form certainly can't get by it since there's no openings in it.

Actually:


If you have 15 ranks in
Escape Artist, you can attempt to pass
through a barrier composed of magical
force (or similar magical obstacles).

otiluke's resilient sphere is composed of magical force, ergo, you can pass through it with shadow form.

there is no mention of you needing an opening to get through solid walls or constructs made of force for shadow form, that's the normal EA rules.

[Osiris]

Not true at all, its distinctly sub-optimal. :smallwink:

Optimal is doing things like throwing out two thousand Ice Assassin's of Great Wyrm Red Dragons in a single turn.

I don't know much about Ice Assassin, but I DO lnow how to throw out thousands of monsters per turn.
1 get the chain spell feat.
2 get all yer minions into Smoky confinement (chained)
3 get all the balls even smaller with shrink item (chained)
4 throw all of them (they're small, so they all fit in your hand).
You throw it on the ground! poof, not shrunk, poof, not in smoky confinement. Even funnier if you are flying above the BBEG and throw them like a hoop, completely surrounding said BBEG.



I think it's Time Stop -> Shapechange into Zodar -> Wish (CL 2000 scroll of Chain Reach Ice Assassin [Great Wyrm Dragon]) -> Shapechange into Lilitu -> Use Scroll via Item Use -> Laugh.
Nope, its a Factotum/Ardent/Psion combination. No items necessary. no idea what factotum is. I stink at optimization, but whatevs. I still have fun.

[Setra]

I love Gishes and Theurges.

I wish I was good enough at optimization to find a way to combine them that doesn't end up an utter mess.

Maybe through liberal application of DMM: Persist and Nightsticks.

[Eldariel]

I love Gishes and Theurges.

I wish I was good enough at optimization to find a way to combine them that doesn't end up an utter mess.

Maybe through liberal application of DMM: Persist and Nightsticks.

There's like Fochlucan Lyrist, any Theurge with a way to persist buffs (if Arcane, take Arcane Disciple: War/whatever for Divine Power, if Divine just cast Divine Power), etc. If you want a specific combination, open a separate thread on it and we'll work it out. Little is impossible within 3.5 rules, and Theurge Gishes are certainly not a problem.

[Setra]

There's like Fochlucan Lyrist, any Theurge with a way to persist buffs (if Arcane, take Arcane Disciple: War/whatever for Divine Power, if Divine just cast Divine Power), etc. If you want a specific combination, open a separate thread on it and we'll work it out. Little is impossible within 3.5 rules, and Theurge Gishes are certainly not a problem.
I might have to do that if my current character dies. Though given that she is a very cautious Conjurer, it's unlikely, unless my DM gets tired of her Abrupt Jaunting out of everything and kills her out of spite.

I created her to be the exact opposite of my previous character, a reckless Warblade who would drop his weapon and punch people to death with his gauntlets if they pissed him off. I miss him.

[137beth]

Inflicting negative levels on opponents. Enervation.

Yes, it can be blocked by Death Ward, and lots of creatures are immune, but when it works it's awesome.
Actually, PF made it much better, with a metamagic feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/thanatopic-spell-metamagic). Still not something I'd consider truly optimal compared to BFC spells, though.

[Elderand]

Inflicting negative levels on opponents. Enervation.

Yes, it can be blocked by Death Ward, and lots of creatures are immune, but when it works it's awesome.
Actually, PF made it much better, with a metamagic feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/thanatopic-spell-metamagic). Still not something I'd consider truly optimal compared to BFC spells, though.

Even though there are options to finish a fight in a round or so I have to admit, I'm a big fan of reducing an enemy to conscious but utterly useless, immobilised with plenty of level loss and ability scores reduced to somewhere south of an oyster even if it takes longer.

The more powerful and dreaded the enemy is the more satisfying it becomes.

[Vedhin]

Alchemy and Poisons are also awesome. I wish poison scaled with level better, and I wish alchemical things scaled at all.

I'm also fond of alchemy and poison. I maintain that it's actually really great, if you know what you are doing. Alchemy can scale with level if you can convince your DM that needing an epic feat to make flasks of acid (and such) that deal 2d6 damage is idiotic.
Plus, with the right PrCs and items, you can get stuff that deals 3d6 acid damage, 2d6 fire damage, and 8d6 Con damage over 13 rounds. And that's not counting all the splash damage. If PF stuff is allowed, it gets even crazier.

[Talya]

it's actually really great, if you know what you are doing. Alchemy can scale with level if you can convince your DM that needing an epic feat to make flasks of acid (and such) that deal 2d6 damage is idiotic.
Plus, with the right PrCs and items, you can get stuff that deals 3d6 acid damage, 2d6 fire damage, and 8d6 Con damage over 13 rounds. And that's not counting all the splash damage. If PF stuff is allowed, it gets even crazier.

Pro-tip: When trying to convince your DM that needing an epic feat to make flasks of acid (and such) that deal 2d6 damage is idiotic, don't mention 8d6 Con damage to her.

[Vedhin]

Pro-tip: When trying to convince your DM that needing an epic feat to make flasks of acid (and such) that deal 2d6 damage is idiotic, don't mention 8d6 Con damage to her.

Well, my point is that crazy things like that are possible, but 2d6 damage acid flasks aren't. Most people would say that the opposite should be true, as you implied.

[Coidzor]

Pro-tip: When trying to convince your DM that needing an epic feat to make flasks of acid (and such) that deal 2d6 damage is idiotic, don't mention 8d6 Con damage to her.

I think the idea is that while you have to go into Epic to get non-broken, reasonable stuff to scale at a reasonable rate, you can just get stuff like 8d6 con damage and worse without working particularly hard, or at least jumping through hoops one can jump through.

[Vedhin]

I think the idea is that while you have to go into Epic to get non-broken, reasonable stuff to scale at a reasonable rate, you can just get stuff like 8d6 con damage and worse without working particularly hard, or at least jumping through hoops one can jump through.

Pretty much. The basic thing here is the Alchemist Savant PrC, which allows mixing an alchemical splash weapon with a poison. My example was fairly extreme, but it doesn't take much thought to make some very nasty stuff with that.

[Talya]

Well, the problem with 8d6 con damage, is it will kill most things outright.
But it's stated over 13 rounds. Therefore it is both useless in combat, and generally north of the power curve that d20 tries to keep non-magical poisons.

Is it reasonable? Certainly. I find the fact that most characters can drink a litre of arsenic without ill-effect stupid. It's still way more dangerous than d&d likes to make its non-magical effects. Heck, it's even hard to do that much CON damage with a spell.

[Eldariel]

Well, the problem with 8d6 con damage, is it will kill most things outright.
But it's stated over 13 rounds. Therefore it is both useless in combat, and generally north of the power curve that d20 tries to keep non-magical poisons.

Is it reasonable? Certainly. I find the fact that most characters can drink a litre of arsenic without ill-effect stupid. It's still way more dangerous than d&d likes to make its non-magical effects. Heck, it's even hard to do that much CON damage with a spell.

This can really be generalized into D&D not liking you to bypass HP. It wants you to beat something into submission with damage, not ability damage (but the game offers, probably unintentionally, ways to bypass that problem with work) and principally save-or-dies shouldn't be reliable enough to circumvent HP very often (which, of course, isn't always true in closer scrutiny again due to certain options available; though SoDs can generally be countered fairly simply).

[Zombulian]

I realized that I almost exclusively play sub-optimal choices. I love spellthieves and the Charlatan prc. I mean, who would want to be a real wizard when you can be a pretend wizard?
Also, Pyrokineticists. That PrC is just so silly. There is some controversy over how the fire whip works, and it really isn't the strongest class for damage, even though that's the only thing it can do. But Heat Death is hilarious. You overheat the body of a living thing until they die. It isn't classified as a fire effect though, and elementals are alive...

[Zanos]

Is it reasonable? Certainly. I find the fact that most characters can drink a litre of arsenic without ill-effect stupid. It's still way more dangerous than d&d likes to make its non-magical effects. Heck, it's even hard to do that much CON damage with a spell.
That reminds me of blackfire, one of my favorite necromancy spells. Target bursts into black flames, and then has to make a fort save every round or take 1d4 con damage and be nauseated. Passing the save stills causes sicken, though.

Anyone who passes next to someone aflame has to reflex save or catch on fire themselves.

Here's what makes it so awesome: the black flames actually burn your soul away, so if you get killed by it you're reduced to a pile of ash as the flames consume your soul. If anyone wants to ress them, they need to use wish or true resurrection AND pass a DC 30 CL check.

Of course, it's an 8th level spell, and by that point many things are immune to ability damage anyway. Still, fire that eats away at people's souls? Awesome.

[Coidzor]

Well, the problem with 8d6 con damage, is it will kill most things outright.
But it's stated over 13 rounds. Therefore it is both useless in combat, and generally north of the power curve that d20 tries to keep non-magical poisons.

Now to recall how big the numbers on the Monstrous Vermins' poisons get...

I couldn't quite tell if he meant that was 8d6 a round or 8d6 divided amongst 13 rounds, I must admit.


Is it reasonable? Certainly. I find the fact that most characters can drink a litre of arsenic without ill-effect stupid. It's still way more dangerous than d&d likes to make its non-magical effects. Heck, it's even hard to do that much CON damage with a spell.

My understanding was that neither of us were really contending that it was reasonable or not(I think, he seemed to imply that it was a bit out there whether it was reasonable or not), so much as that it was an example of what's already accomplishable in-system in contrast to having alchemical effects being allowed to do more damage without an epic feat. :smallconfused:

[Cyan Wisp]

I like having background skills like profession:circus geek or craft:macaroni art or whatever. Due to adventuring pressures, I end up neglecting them, though.

Sneaky trickster magicians - so rogue/wizards, ninjas, rogue/clerics, or shadowdancers. I'm loving my first beguiler - what a joy to play! One of my favourite characters ever.

Knife throwers. Something about the melee - ranged flexibility really appeals and they just seem very cool and deadly.

Lastly...Melee types, swashbucklers or melee-heavy gish like duskblades. Sometimes spellcasters seem to maintain very clean, manicured hands, and are too impenetrable. At times, I'd rather roar in vein-throbbing, apoplectic passion, charge the slavering demon, swing from the chandelier, defenestrate foes from the tower top, and, ultimately, bleed for the cause.:smallamused:

[Vhaidara]

Oh, and I left out one that I inherited from my dad: DEX based fighter. And I mean front line melees who use the actual Fighter class and a rapier. One rapier.

He used three of them throughout my games with him, and our group's optimization levels were so low that he was a primary damage source.

[Malimar]

Non-venerable dragonwrought kobolds. Because the fluff of dragonwrought is neat, and being a Dragon is neat (True Dragon or no), but being old is lame.

Theurge classes without early-entry or fast-progression shenanigans.

Spontaneous spellcasters (also psions). To me, they feel so much more dynamic and fun than stuffy old prepared spellcasters.

Having a dump stat and dumping it really hard -- in the 4-6 range. Sure, there are many builds where this is not sub-optimal, but actually RPing your dump stat can be. It's just fun to RP somebody who's cripplingly uncharismatic or dumb or unwise.

[Harrow]

I would say the knowledges that aren't used for identifying monsters (Nobility and Royalty, Geography, Architecture and Engineering, and History), but I like them so much that my latest character put points into all of them and has actually been getting a lot of use out of them, so I'm not sure if they really are sub-optimal, at least in this campaign.

All of the above also applies to Decipher Script.

[Oko and Qailee]

Archery
Clerics dedicated to healing

I don't care if you only have 60HP I'm going to heal you for 400 anyway!

[Zanos]

Non-venerable dragonwrought kobolds. Because the fluff of dragonwrought is neat, and being a Dragon is neat (True Dragon or no), but being old is lame.
I don't think I've played a character in recent years that wasn't old. It justifies me shaking me had at everyone in disappointment.

[Alent]

Non-venerable dragonwrought kobolds. Because the fluff of dragonwrought is neat, and being a Dragon is neat (True Dragon or no), but being old is lame.


I don't think I've played a character in recent years that wasn't old. It justifies me shaking me had at everyone in disappointment.

Oh, age rules and non-dragonwrought kobolds. That reminds me of a recent character I enjoyed... The character was a kobold who always dreamed of building giant clockwork robots as a child, and now that he was nearing the end of his life, he felt it was time to act out his childhood fantasy after a lifetime spent as a miner.

He was a Trapsetter archetype rogue gone Arcane Trickster via wizard entry, and managed to squeeze in all the craft feats I needed by level 7 to get craft construct. I didn't take a single combat related feat or blaster spell on that character, and roleplayed the daylights out of being the wise level head, and had a small army of dedicated Wrights running around building, repairing, and resetting traps for me.

Immensely fun to roleplay. Added tons of flavor to the campaign. Might as well have been an NPC for all the good I did in battle.

I did eventually build the giant clockwork robot despite not having the money to do so ever... out of self resetting CR 1 traps composed of alchemically treated stone cogs, turned by mammoths we caught, reared, and attached to mule-mills.

[Teh_das]

One of my favorite characters I've ever played was named Dizzy. Obsurdly imbalanced stats (I believe his lowest physical stat was a 15, his highest mental an 8) and he had the titan mauler archetype with beast totem/elemental rage. I was duel-wielding two huge-size falcata and running at things like a lawnmower with no regard for safety.

My DM tthought I was overpowered :smallfrown:

[Jlerpy]

Unarmoured Clerics
Skillmonkeys
Non spellcasters
Archers
I also love the idea of dual wand wielding, but it's punishingly lame, both in terms of expense and feat cost.

[Telok]

Divine Metamagic: Heighten Spell.

I once got to play a cleric with the Domination domain, where I got Dominate Person as a 4th level spell. I used restraint though; I only dominated casters, only had one nightstick, only dominated once a day, and sacrificed everybody I dominated to my god that same night. "Hello mister eleventh level BBEG wizard, make a 34 will save or by my personal gimp for the rest of your short and servile life."

Telekinetic Thrust.

Will save vs. "I have your weapon and/or spell component pouch."
Even better: Will save vs. "Sorry Mr. Fighter, your weapon is now under the feet of the bear riding a bear and shooting lasers."

The Happy Spirit of Goodness and Light!!!

I played a pixie swordsage once, back when Adaptive Style wasn't FAQ'ed to refresh your maneuvers. The party is level five and I'm level one, near useless in combat and the Setting Sun throw almost never works, with level 5 WBL... I did not buy weapons or armor, there was no way to close the combat gap with that little money. I bought stuff. The floaty lantern, the scorpion summoning necklace (pre errata), several healing belts, everfull mugs, troll gut rope... just piles of useful stuff. The stuff that most adventurers never bother with because they have to save up for the next +# weapon or armor. So this glowing ball with a high pitched squeaky voice cam up to the party and introduced itself as The Happy Spirit of Goodness and Light!!! (complete with extra exclamation marks). Throwing allies to flanking positions, pouring beer on people, illusionary dragons, giant scorpions. It was a riot, complete and hilarious mayhem in the guide of being a helpful spirit.

Wilders and Soulknives.

I really want to like wilders. It's just that they get the same number of power points as psions, so few powers, and the core class ability (Wild Surge) gets worse as you level up. It's the same with soulknives. They come so close to being great and then fall flat on their faces. Full BaB, enhancement bonuses that were at the correct level instead of two to three levels late, and an enhancement list that meant something. Seriously, there's fifteen enhancements on that list; five are crit-only, Mighty Cleaving and Sundering will never be used by normal players, and a couple others like Mindcrusher are just trash. Then there are Lucky, Vicious, and Supression where you and the DM have to hash out just what happens every time you throw your mondblade and make a new one because WotC never thought actually use your class abilities.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I would say the knowledges that aren't used for identifying monsters (Nobility and Royalty, Geography, Architecture and Engineering, and History), but I like them so much that my latest character put points into all of them and has actually been getting a lot of use out of them, so I'm not sure if they really are sub-optimal, at least in this campaign.

I remember a time when it seemed like every published adventure hid stuff with Know:Architecture & Engineering. I feel like it was a bit of "guess what I'm thinking" with maicious intent. Like "See, you had a chance to avoid that with this knowledge that nobody took" subtext: I'm smarter than you, lol. So, I started taking it whenever I played a skill monkey or skill points to spare wizard and made sure the skill monkey took it whenever I wasn't playing those.

[Eldonauran]

I remember a time when it seemed like every published adventure hid stuff with Know:Architecture & Engineering. I feel like it was a bit of "guess what I'm thinking" with maicious intent. Like "See, you had a chance to avoid that with this knowledge that nobody took" subtext: I'm smarter than you, lol. So, I started taking it whenever I played a skill monkey or skill points to spare wizard and made sure the skill monkey took it whenever I wasn't playing those.

This is why bards are awesome. Whenever I am in a game that is weighted more towards role play than combat, I have to resist the urge to roll a bard. Hell, even in more combat heavy games, I still have to resist the urge to splash 4levels of bard with any finesse fighter I make.

[mjnousak]

Warforged Wizard/Effigy mage/Necromancer

It's impractical, you'll never have XP to spare, but RPing it is a blast. You're an immortal magical machine who makes life-like machines and raises the dead. My favorite quote was:
"Who needs living friends? I can make friends who live forever with a little magic. You may even join them sometime."

[Spore]

Monstrous Races and natural classes (Fighter, Druid, Ranger, Barbarian). Nothing says raging berserker like a minotaur or Ogre charging your way.


Unarmoured Clerics

YES. YES. Someone who understands me! Clerics are those quirky guys with the altar boys who wear black monk-ish outfits, not some kind of paladin-esque abominations with heavy armor.

[Talya]

Monstrous Races and natural classes (Fighter, Druid, Ranger, Barbarian). Nothing says raging berserker like a minotaur or Ogre charging your way.



YES. YES. Someone who understands me! Clerics are those quirky guys with the altar boys who wear black monk-ish outfits, not some kind of paladin-esque abominations with heavy armor.

Those would be Cloistered Clerics with the Divine Gesture flaw.

[Zanos]

Or Archivists, which are pretty rad.

[Seerow]

Those would be Cloistered Clerics with the Divine Gesture flaw.

Default clerics should be cloistered clerics with none of the perks cloistered clerics get.

There is no reason for Clerics to get heavy armor or medium BAB except to step all over the Paladin's toes. Divine Power should similarly work more like Tenser's Transformation and lock the caster out of casting any other spells.

Cleric would still be a really strong class overall, and beat the Paladin in almost all situations, but at least it doesn't leave you feeling like a complete retard for not playing the full caster.

[Oko and Qailee]

Default clerics should be cloistered clerics with none of the perks cloistered clerics get.

There is no reason for Clerics to get heavy armor or medium BAB except to step all over the Paladin's toes. Divine Power should similarly work more like Tenser's Transformation and lock the caster out of casting any other spells.

Cleric would still be a really strong class overall, and beat the Paladin in almost all situations, but at least it doesn't leave you feeling like a complete retard for not playing the full caster.

I actually agree. IMO flavor for clerics should be something like a priest/other religious equivalent. Cloistered Clerics would be like a monk, not in the oriental monk "I beat people with my fists and am wise" type, but the "I'm essentially a priest living deep within a religious community and I spend a lot of time reading."

Keep in mind, even then, Clerics could still just use Greater Luminous Armor, but currently clerics are basically Paladins + more stuff

[Zombulian]

Default clerics should be cloistered clerics with none of the perks cloistered clerics get.

There is no reason for Clerics to get heavy armor or medium BAB except to step all over the Paladin's toes. Divine Power should similarly work more like Tenser's Transformation and lock the caster out of casting any other spells.

Cleric would still be a really strong class overall, and beat the Paladin in almost all situations, but at least it doesn't leave you feeling like a complete retard for not playing the full caster.

This one. I like this post.

[Greenish]

Default clerics should be cloistered clerics with none of the perks cloistered clerics get.Well, I wouldn't object 4+int skills. Then, no class should have mere 2+int.

[Suddo]

I like taking Prestige Classes in Pathfinder. For those unfamiliar most PrCs suck in Pathfinder (especially compared to the base class).

Oh and the character I'm hoping to play next month is a Dwarven Tower Shield Specialist Fighter into Living Monolith. It is in an Egyptian themed campaign so I had to jump on trying to play a Living Monolith.


Well, I wouldn't object 4+int skills. Then, no class should have mere 2+int.

I think Wizards should. Int synergy on your spells will give you plenty.

[Greenish]

I think Wizards should. Int synergy on your spells will give you plenty.Wizard schmizard. A few more skill points would change nothing for them, and it satisfies my compulsive nature for standardization. :smalltongue:

[Iryanmadayana]

Non-venerable dragonwrought kobolds. Because the fluff of dragonwrought is neat, and being a Dragon is neat (True Dragon or no), but being old is lame.This. Actually I kinda like the idea that the character is not going to grow weak during old age, even if it is not going to happen during the entire course of playing. So yes, I do like me some kobolds, and I do like me some young dragonwrought kobolds who never actually do anything with their dragonwroughtness (aside from the minor immunities it brings, which I guess are nice).

[Seerow]

Well, I wouldn't object 4+int skills. Then, no class should have mere 2+int.

I disagree. Let full casters deal with 2 skill points per level, and let them make up the difference with their spells.

But then, I'd remove the int mod from skill selection and give non full casters way more skills to compensate. Anyone who's not a full caster would have at least 6. Rogues probably 10-12.

[Jlerpy]

I disagree. Let full casters deal with 2 skill points per level, and let them make up the difference with their spells.

But then, I'd remove the int mod from skill selection and give non full casters way more skills to compensate. Anyone who's not a full caster would have at least 6. Rogues probably 10-12.

I like the skill point mod. I'd rather just be rid of Wizards. ;)

[Necroticplague]

I like to grapple.
I like to bull-rush.
Sometimes I like to trip.
Love combat maneuvers.
Even though they all bite.
boomdeyadah-boomdeyadah-boomdeyadah.
I love to have grafts.
Despite their steep price.
I like stacking fast
healing, sometimes regen.
Don't forget templates
(thank heavens for gestalt)
boomdeyadah-boomdeyadah-boomdeyadah.

[DMVerdandi]

Warmage base class.
It specializes is the most non-optimal form of spellcasting, and to an insane point. All it does is blast. Casts of charisma for no good reason, and for all intended purposes is probably the worst full caster.

But I don't care. Solvin all my problems with a ray to the face.

Aristocrat
I love the name.

[Vedhin]

is probably the worst full caster.

Somebody forgot about the Healer. Which is a suboptimal thing I like, now that it's brought up.

[Oxydeur]

I really liked to play a Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Wizard 4 (with fighter feats ACF from UA)/Rage Mage (CW). The "cast spells while raging" really worth it. And the reaction from most of the NPC was priceless (as this character looked like a stereotypical barbarian) :
"Watch out ! A Barbarian. Don't get too close to his greatsword"
* i throw a fireball
"Ouch ! Damn, it's a wizard. Let's bash his head !"
* i go in whirlwing frenzy and chop them down
"Crap, it's a real barbarian ! But he just casted a spell ?! What do we do ?!"

Never get the flexibility of the wizard or the synergy of the sorcadin, but this char was just so smooth to play :)

[Oko and Qailee]

I disagree. Let full casters deal with 2 skill points per level, and let them make up the difference with their spells.


See, but sometimes I want to spend skill points on random things like Profession (basketweaving), but I can't because with 2+Int points all of my points have to go to necessities and I have none left for the fun.

I think everyone (except wizards) gets too few skill points, I would even give Rogues more.

[Cyan Wisp]

Aristocrat
I love the name.

Love the idea. I played a Noble in Conan d20. So much fun flashing your money everywhere and having an inherent air of superiority - even if no one else in the world really cared about your daddy's estate.

[Zombulian]

Love the idea. I played a Noble in Conan d20. So much fun flashing your money everywhere and having an inherent air of superiority - even if no one else in the world really cared about your daddy's estate.

I once used the Dragonlance Noble to qualify for the Charlatan PrC. Was a rich guy who pretended to be a super powerful wizard through scare tactics. Basically batman.

[Suteinu]

I once used the Dragonlance Noble to qualify for the Charlatan PrC. Was a rich guy who pretended to be a super powerful wizard through scare tactics. Basically batman.

I think you may be the only person aside from me who has openly admitted to not only playing a Noble, but enjoying it! :smallbiggrin:

I've also used the Master (Sage) class to create a PC on Oerth who was actually from Earth, a professor-type with a lever-action rifle ... who had never played D&D before. No, he did not get there by a rollercoaster.

Favorite, though: SWASHBUCKLER! (In fact, I'm currently working on a Swashbuckler Handbook, researching, drafting, an' such.)

[IAmTehDave]

Blasting. One of my favorite characters was a VoP Kineticist Psion in a low-op campaign. Only ever used one SoD spell (Because Fighting that damned blue dragon on top of a tower was going to be WAY too much of a PitA) and used the rest of my time to melt faces with Energy Missile/Ray/Cone/Ball/Conduit. Psionic Disintegration was used hilariously against a non-allied vampire PC.

Astral Construct with wings used as a delivery method for a mostly-full necklace of fireballs.

What can I say, I like flashy effects, explosions, and (as suboptimal as it is) doing HP damage. It feels really nice rolling 3 handfuls of d6s for damage.

[A Tad Insane]

This has probably been swordsage'd, but binder focused anima mage. If I wanted the magic shenanigans that an anima mage can do, I would play an incantatrix. Plus it allows me to be an arcanist AND a binder, which are my two favorite things

[Ivanhoe]

Nice thread!

For me...
...old melee characters
...not putting highest stat in the typical slot for the class
...low-level wizards!

[DruidAlanon]

Bard, with red hair, bagpipe, kilt and very high strength.

[Reavent]

My first ever D&D character was a Tiefling Wizard who spec'ed into Transmutation. At the time I had no idea about anything, but the instant I looked at Disintegrate, I knew I picked the right school =D

And it just so happened that I use it with a rod of maximized spell to insta-kill the bard we had in our group. My DM really liked the whole "Inter-Party Violence" thing XD

[(Un)Inspired]

Hmmm probably obsessively checking a Dungeons and Dragons forum instead of working on my thesis or calling my girlfriend.

Last night I kept ducking under the bar at work to post while pretending to "investigate" a "leak" under one of the sinks.

[DruidAlanon]

Hmmm probably obsessively checking a Dungeons and Dragons forum instead of working on my thesis or calling my girlfriend.

Last night I kept ducking under the bar at work to post while pretending to "investigate" a "leak" under one of the sinks.

This reminds me:
"whaaaaat? where have you beeen last 6,5 hoursss?????... bla bla bla... too nervous too speak to you 'till tomorrow"
"ok babe, I'm really really sry, bye..."

GIANTIP NIGHT!!!! :D

[Heliomance]

Mr. Blast-Your-Face-Off calls his BoM his Belt of Awesomeness. He also has a Jockstrap of Awesomeness (it has an auto reset trap of Mage's Lucubration on it so that he gets one of his fireballs back every round).
I swear that the supposed balancing point for why traps are so cheap is that they can only be built into immobile fixtures.


Multi-weapon fighting. All the troubles of TWF, but with added weapon expenses and the difficulty of getting extra hands in the first place (without being a caster).

But, well,
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/4/47192/869578-general_grievous.jpg
So Warforged with Arms of the Girallion I can buy, but why would you quad-wield Brilliant Energy rapiers? Brilliant Energy is a TERRIBLE enchant! :P

[Vedhin]

I swear that the supposed balancing point for why traps are so cheap is that they can only be built into immobile fixtures.


So Warforged with Arms of the Girallion I can buy, but why would you quad-wield Brilliant Energy rapiers? Brilliant Energy is a TERRIBLE enchant! :P

Actually, I think they are Psychokinetic. Or whatever the force damage enchant is called.

[Emperor Tippy]

I swear that the supposed balancing point for why traps are so cheap is that they can only be built into immobile fixtures

Yes but the rules don't actually say that, and things like trapped chests or letters are points against that (both of which WotC has published in official content).

[Greenish]

So Warforged with Arms of the Girallion I can buy, but why would you quad-wield Brilliant Energy rapiers? Brilliant Energy is a TERRIBLE enchant! :PIt's a warforged with Mighty Arms graft (which doesn't actually say it replaces your arms*) who's a PF Soulknife//PF Soulknife gestalt. :smalltongue:

*It doesn't actually say you get arms, let alone hands, either.

[Spore]

Stupidly high stats. Primarly strength because melee combat isn't terribly expensive feat-wise and you can make really stupid things work. You only need a Strength of about 35 to juggle with three horses! Bonus points if you use the level in bard you used to get into dragon disciple to sing some variant of circus music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aELcXyjpts).

I didn't come up with an insanely broken strength score yet (I feel my 34 on a 15th level Orc Barbarian is within expected limits), but one day.

[Phelix-Mu]

Stupidly high stats. Primarly strength because melee combat isn't terribly expensive feat-wise and you can make really stupid things work. You only need a Strength of about 35 to juggle with three horses! Bonus points if you use the level in bard you used to get into dragon disciple to sing some variant of circus music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aELcXyjpts).

I didn't come up with an insanely broken strength score yet (I feel my 34 on a 15th level Orc Barbarian is within expected limits), but one day.

Ah, FOG GIANT BARBARIANS! Love that picture from Monsters of Faerun.