Druids as a T1 class...

[Corinath]

So, I know nothing about Druids. And a friend of mine, new to DnD, wants to roll one. I found a few Druid handbooks, but none of them really explain things quite like I'd hoped they would.

What is it that makes Druids a T1 class? Casting I get. Casting is always crazy powerful. But Wild Shape? Animal Companion? Are those just as strong?

Is Wild Shape the same as Shapechange in terms of trading abilities? Is the Animal Companion strong by it's own right? Or is it more of an afterthought?

etc.

Just experiences as a Druid would help here. As well as any reading you could point me to (I tried to find a Wild Shape handbook and failed).

Thanks!

[Irk]

They get great spells and are incredible melee combatants thanks to wild shape. Also, they can do both at the same time. Plus, planar shepherd.

[Zanos]

Druids are tier 1 because they are prepared casters with access to a powerful list. Their other abilities are gravy, but useful.

[Larkas]

Casting is what makes Druids T1. The rest is just icing on the cake.

Which is not saying it is weak or anything. Druids have pet quasi-Fighters and can turn into a myriad of powerful and useful forms. It's just that casting is carrying the bulk of the class here.

[Flickerdart]

A druid is a 9-level prepared caster. Although it's the weakest of the three core T1s, it packs quite a punch.

A druid is, at the same time, a badass dinosaur, a bird, a bear, a shark, or a twelve-headed pyrohydra. Wildshape (properly augmented by feats) is a solid T3 feature on its own, basically Polymorph.

A druid is, at the same time, a fighter, except better - his companion has tasty special abilities, and is completely expendable.

And then there are the class features.

[WinWin]

Regarding animal companion, a Druid gets (normally) a 2hd animal companion at first level. That companion is the equivelent of an unoptimized 1st level warrior (at the very least. Some companions are better than others by an order of magnitude, depending on the campaign setting.).

They get this companion in addition to their other abilities. By the time it ceases to be a major advantage, other class features and higher level spells have come online.

Regardless of adventure or setting, a Druid character will probably have something useful that they can do, to progress the plot or aid in overcoming challenges. The same can not neccesarily be said of other classes. This is why druids are often regarded as a powerful class.

[Chronos]

If they just had the spells, then they'd be at the very bottom edge of Tier 1, or maybe Tier 2b with the Wu Jen and the online-vestiges Binder. The wildshape and animal companion aren't enough by themselves to make a Tier 1, but added with the spells they're enough to put it over the line.

Wildshape doesn't give you most of what Shapechange does, at least unless you take Master of Many Forms. One thing it does give you, though, which Shapechange doesn't, is the ability to cast spells in any form you turn into, provided you take the feat that every druid ever always takes.

[Darksword]

Lets see spell shaping is super useful
Now your animal companion is basically a fighter that is a class feature. It might be a bit stronger then the fighter.
Then with wild shape you get utility use and you also have combat use. Your combat abilities are actually not tied to your stats if you are a druid. So you become a great spell caster (especially with natural spell feat) and a great fighter without becoming MAD and you have an extra fighter that is your pet.

The wild shape class feature alone would be tier 2. Animal companion is tier 3 or 2 and spell casting is tier 1.

So yeah it is totally tier 1.

[eggynack]

Wild shape and the animal companion are quite strong. However, they have almost nothing to do with the druid's tier one ability. Sure, they augment your casting, and they grant you a target, and they make you one of the most powerful characters in the game from 1-20, but they're not tier one abilities. It's all down to casting off of a strong list. You could strip away the animal companion and wild shape entirely, and the list would still be there, and you'd still be tier one. The list isn't quite as extensive as the wizard one, or maybe even the cleric one after domains, but it can do nearly anything you'd want it to, and a few things besides.

As for the wild shape and animal companion, they're a few different things. Wild shape represents nearly every form of mobility in the game, accessible within a standard action, and within a swift with items. It represents just about all of the major combat styles you could ever want, perfect stat replacement, and after spells, amazing sensory ability. It's a mobile defense platform for spells, or a huge target to layer buffs on, or a source of some rather obscure abilities besides. It's an ability that's at its best when it's making your casting better, and it does that job well.

The animal companion is somewhat less complicated. At the early levels, when a fighter is one of the more reasonable things you can be, the animal companion makes you a fighter. You also get to be a caster, and that's still probably better, even at level one, but being a caster and a meatshield in one is great. The animal companion means that you get two actions in your native form, and it represents an even better target than yourself for buffs. When you create spell based inevitability, perhaps through a mass of BFC's, the animal companion can turn time into death. That's a thing you'd normally want a party beat stick for, but with the animal companion, you are the beat stick.

The animal companion and wild shape mean that, unlike the wizard, who obsoletes the fighter by doing better things, you obsolete him by doing the same things except better, at the same time as you're doing better things. You obsolete the fighter directly, and it is in many ways a horrible thing. I could keep going, probably for hundreds of pages, about all of the things that make the druid great, but that stuff is the basics.

[limejuicepowder]

I'd make a more detailed post, but you going to get a lot better info from someone else, probably eggynack (I think of him as the de facto druid expert).

In any case, I can tell you this: the druid spell list does make the class t1, though it's considered the weakest of the spell lists. It only gets one of the game-breakers, shapechange, which makes a difference at high level.

Wildshape is t3 territory, as shown by the wildshape ranger.

Animal companion is t5, all by itself.

And druid gets them all, with a few other bonuses. Druids, in my understanding, aren't much on subtlety; they're more about numbers and easy, reliable tactics (turn in to animal, eat face. Turn in to bird, snipe. Summon animal, eat face). However, they are the most natural one-man army of any of the classes, the most likely to make other lessor tiered classes feel like crap.

At lower levels, play them like a wizardly character. Stay in the back, lay down BFC (entangle, others), plunk away with something when needed. Use the pet as a secondary fighter. Save wildshape uses for stealth missions, or to get unusual forms of movement, like burrow and fly.

Once they reach mid levels, 7th or 8th, they can enter melee in some nasty battle shape. The pet is right along with them, buffed to the 9's. Summons at this point are very potent, unicorn (for healing) and giant crocodile (for mad grappling) are good ones.

Good items: monk's belt, wilding clasps

Good feats: natural spell. Yeah that's pretty much all they need....though some of the summon-enhancing feats are good too.

edit: wildshape'd....man I type slow.

[eggynack]

A druid is, at the same time, a badass dinosaur, a bird, a bear, a shark, or a twelve-headed pyrohydra. Wildshape (properly augmented by feats) is a solid T3 feature on its own, basically Polymorph.

You mean cryohydra here. Also, don't forget about the blink dog. I've been thinking, and I'm inclined to think that exalted wild shape is actually better than frozen wild shape. That's double-true given that it lets you get the Ex abilities of your animal forms.


The wild shape class feature alone would be tier 2. Animal companion is tier 3 or 2 and spell casting is tier 1.
Not really, no. Wild shape is tier three, and it maybe hits tier two with an MoMF build, but that's a tier lowering, and thus outside of the question at hand. The animal companion is, as you noted, basically a fighter. At some level ranges, and in some builds, it's stronger than a fighter, and at some level ranges and in some builds it's weaker, but that puts the animal companion at maybe tier four, and probably tier five. It's never ever tier two, and probably never tier three, though I could imagine someone really twinking out the thing for tier three status. Probably not though.

Edit:
probably eggynack (I think of him as the de facto druid expert).
D'aww thanks.

[Corinath]

Thanks everyone! I'll look more into the casting aspect of this. I thought it was shape change centric.

As an addendum, we're also playing a Gestalt Campaign. What would you Gestalt with a druid, and why? (He's a new player, not likely to break the game on accident.)

[Kraken]

You might be able to use arcane hierophant to get it their familiar/companion to T3 without sacrificing too much optimization. Once it becomes intelligent you can justify it doing a lot more things. Druids are feat starved, but companion spellbound (share spells out to 30' with companion) and spell-linked familiar (familiar can cast up to 2nd level spells), both from PHB2 can help towards this purpose. If nothing else, getting it to be able to cast spells is great for action economy.

[Larkas]

Not really, no. Wild shape is tier three, and it maybe hits tier two with an MoMF build, but that's a tier lowering, and thus outside of the question at hand.

Nah, MoMF doesn't make Wildshape tier two, it only makes it higher in tier three. Or actually tier three, I guess, I tend to think of it as more of a tier four ability (of the "versatile, good but not great on its own" variety). I mean, just look at the Wildshaping Ranger: I think it makes it to tier three because of the sum of its abilities, and a MoMF Druid (disregarding what few casting it would have) would be missing a few (Full BAB, skill points, etc.). But I digress. :smallredface:

[JaronK]

As an addendum, we're also playing a Gestalt Campaign. What would you Gestalt with a druid, and why? (He's a new player, not likely to break the game on accident.)

The classic is Druid//Monk. That gives you Flurried Unarmed Strikes in Wild Shape form (plus all the Natural Attacks), all good saves, a few handy feats (Stunning Fist and Improved Trip will both be incredible), and insane ground speed. The two go together quite well, and are actually very newbie friendly.

JaronK

[limejuicepowder]

Thanks everyone! I'll look more into the casting aspect of this. I thought it was shape change centric.

As an addendum, we're also playing a Gestalt Campaign. What would you Gestalt with a druid, and why? (He's a new player, not likely to break the game on accident.)

A class with lots of passive abilities, since druids have enough cans of whoopass to open as it is (and time is limited).

Monk (just a dip, and just so you don't have to worry about getting/losing the monk's belt. Can also combo nicely with...some feat from dragon mag that combines natural attacks and unarmed strikes)

binder, because vestiges are awesome and have something for everyone.

totemist, though this is entirely hearsay. I know almost nothing about totemists.

[eggynack]

Nah, MoMF doesn't make Wildshape tier two, it only makes it higher in tier three. Or actually tier three, I guess, I tend to think of it as more of a tier four ability (of the "versatile, good but not great on its own" variety). I mean, just look at the Wildshaping Ranger: I think it makes it to tier three because of the sum of its abilities, and a MoMF would be missing a few (Full BAB, skill points, etc.). But I digress. :smallredface:
I've heard it both ways. You can get a pretty ridiculously broad... stuff... just with the ability to become all of the things. I'm not all that knowledgable about the class' specifics, because there's basically an infinite amount of specifics, but there're things you can do. Still, you might be right about it being three despite that.

[WinWin]

Druid//Spirit Shaman for the lulz

[limejuicepowder]

Druid//Spirit Shaman for the lulz

Well at least you'd never run out of spells....

[WinWin]

Druid//Psychic Warrior could also work, especially if you were focusing on Wild Shape Melee

[Draz74]

Yeah, spellcasting is definitely the strongest element of the Druid, except possibly at Levels 1-2. At those levels, the Animal Companion might even be better than the spellcasting.

Wild Shape is pretty awesome compared to most non-spellcasting class features. But it's definitely a secondary feature. And after the first few levels, Animal Companion is still handy but it's no longer a powerhouse ability. Spellcasting is really where it's at.


The classic is Druid//Monk. That gives you Flurried Unarmed Strikes in Wild Shape form (plus all the Natural Attacks), all good saves, a few handy feats (Stunning Fist and Improved Trip will both be incredible), and insane ground speed. The two go together quite well, and are actually very newbie friendly.

The secondary classic is Druid//Ninja, which is pretty similar. Still gets WIS to AC, a boost in skills and Reflex saves -- covering for the Druid's few weaknesses. But instead of unarmed strike damage (which doesn't matter a ton when you've already got natural weapons), you progress Sudden Strike precision damage. And you can be five different alignments instead of just one.

[WhamBamSam]

A class with lots of passive abilities, since druids have enough cans of whoopass to open as it is (and time is limited).

Monk (just a dip, and just so you don't have to worry about getting/losing the monk's belt. Can also combo nicely with...some feat from dragon mag that combines natural attacks and unarmed strikes)

binder, because vestiges are awesome and have something for everyone.

totemist, though this is entirely hearsay. I know almost nothing about totemists.Unarmed Strikes through Monk can also be used in addition to the natural attacks gotten through Wildshape. So you don't even need to use the Dragon Magazine feat to combine them nicely.

Druid//Totemist could indeed be snazzy. Totemist can pile natural attacks on top of the ones you already have and do a number of other nice things while keeping Wis/Con SAD. Incarnum might be a little complicated for a newbie player though.

A one level Cloistered Cleric dip would get Turn Undead (potentially opening up DMM), Knowledge Devotion, and a few other devotional feats.

If you don't feel like being LN for the Monk dip (say you want to be NG for Exalted Companion or something), Swordsage is a solid alternative. 2 levels gets you Wis to AC in light armor (which you will be while in Wildshape thanks to Wildling Clasps) and a few maneuvers. 4 levels gets you more maneuvers and Wis to damage when using some of them. You could also take it all the way to 20, which lets you get the best maneuvers. Tornado Throw in particular is crazy fun with the movement you can pull off through Wildshape/Shapechange.

PsyWar was mentioned, and could be nice. You could also do something like Monk 2/PsyWar 18//Druid 20 with Tashlatora, which would get you most of the important stuff from Monk 20 along with PsyWar goodies. There are a few ways you could gain access to Psychic Reformation which would let you play with the skills and feats on your Animal Companion.

[Twilightwyrm]

Thanks everyone! I'll look more into the casting aspect of this. I thought it was shape change centric.

As an addendum, we're also playing a Gestalt Campaign. What would you Gestalt with a druid, and why? (He's a new player, not likely to break the game on accident.)

Druid/Dragonfire Adept.

Now, this is not going to be the best gestalt combination mind you, as Druid/Monks and Druid/Ninjas have more synergy (and Druid/Cleric and Druid/Wizards are basically getting into outright unfair territory), and
sure, there is overlap in saves, HD, and some skills, but the ability to use DFA invocations, and breath FIRE is going to be awesome for him at low levels. At higher levels, you become not just a bear, eagle or T-Rex, but a FIRE-BREATHING bear, eagle or T-Rex (Godzilla if you prefer). Further, DFA uses Con as its man stat, a stat that is already good for the druid, and has several all-day invocations that will be invaluable while wild-shaped, so the Druid can focus his buffs on other things. (Flight, Invisibility, and Blindsense being among them). All around, I'd imagine this combination would be great fun for your friend.

[Kennisiou]

Druid//Psychic Warrior could also work, especially if you were focusing on Wild Shape Melee

Druid//Ardent and Druid//Swordsage are also good choices. Druid//Totemist as well.

[Ziegander]

Okay, real talk here, would a Druid with no class features, poor BAB, poor Reflex and Will, and d4 HD really be Tier 1 simply by virtue of its spell list?

[eggynack]

Okay, real talk here, would a Druid with no class features, poor BAB, poor Reflex and Will, and d4 HD really be Tier 1 simply by virtue of its spell list?
Probably, yeah. Especially if you keep the spontaneous summoning around. The tier list is defined by the variety of challenges you can overcome, and the extent to which you can overcome them, and the druid list can do pretty much anything. They'd probably be a lower tier one than wizards and clerics, and they'd lose that thing where they're just about the best class in the game at level one, but they'd be tier one. They might need splat books to pull it off though.

[Twilightwyrm]

Okay, real talk here, would a Druid with no class features, poor BAB, poor Reflex and Will, and d4 HD really be Tier 1 simply by virtue of its spell list?

Probably on a technical level. I would be inclined to kick it down a tier just because I value such things more highly, but It's spell list is decent, if not one of the best T1 lists.

[Kennisiou]

The tier list is defined by the variety of challenges you can overcome, and the extent to which you can overcome them, and the druid list can do pretty much anything.

Absolutely this. Wildshape and animal companion and medium BaB progression are all nice, but they're just the cherry on top. Without these features, they'd pretty much just be wisdom wizards but worse. With them, they're still worse than if a Wizard keyed their stats off wis instead of int, but they have a few advantages and a few more resources to use when solving problems (don't have to burn a spell to gain flight, burn a wildshape instead, don't have to burn a spell to create a tank line to safely cast behind, have companion handle it, don't have to burn a spell to become more accurate for attacks, your BaB helps a lot with it, etc).

[Coidzor]

Little bit out of date on this version, but there's a thread devoted to this subject for the majority of classes. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269440)

[Kennisiou]

Probably on a technical level. I would be inclined to kick it down a tier just because I value such things more highly, but It's spell list is decent, if not one of the best T1 lists.

Honestly, druid probably has the worst spell list in T1. To compare with the other T1 classes...

Wizard -- better list than Druid. No real way to debate this.
Archivist -- Contains the Cleric spell list as well as every domain spell, the druid spell list, the ranger and paladin spell list, the bard spell list (for divine bards), and a whole ton of other spells off of random stuff like blackgaurd. While it doesn't have easy access to it, the list itself is better than the Druid's by far (considering it contains the whole Druid spell list).
Artificer -- Contains basically every spell on their "spell list" since they can emulate the spell, make a scroll/other item of it, then cast it off that item with use magic device. Takes a lot of prep work but it's still a massive list of spells that it has access to and the prep time is negligible later with access to spells to manipulate time/space.
StP Erudite -- Wizard Spell list + Psion power list. Way better than Druid.
Cleric -- Finally, something that might have a worse spell list in T1 than Druid. Cleric and Druid's spell lists are much more comparable, with each having some good spells the other lacks. Most people would consider Cleric to be better and I'd agree, but it's not by much.

So unless you're counting stuff like WuJen, Shugenja, Spirit Shaman and Shaman as T1 (all of them can make a claim on it and have arguably worse spell lists than Druid does), Druid is probably actually the worst spell list in T1. Doesn't make them a bad class or even the worst T1 class necessarily, because a Druid played right can still utterly break games, but still. If you want to compare the raw power of spell lists, Druid is pretty much the bottom of T1.

[Spuddles]

If they just had the spells, then they'd be at the very bottom edge of Tier 1, or maybe Tier 2b with the Wu Jen and the online-vestiges Binder. The wildshape and animal companion aren't enough by themselves to make a Tier 1, but added with the spells they're enough to put it over the line.

Wildshape doesn't give you most of what Shapechange does, at least unless you take Master of Many Forms. One thing it does give you, though, which Shapechange doesn't, is the ability to cast spells in any form you turn into, provided you take the feat that every druid ever always takes.

Everyone talks smack about the Druid list, but I've always thought it was far more useful than the cleric list. Especially with splats. The Druid basically has a spell to emulate many of the good wizard spells.

[eggynack]

Druid is probably actually the worst spell list in T1. Doesn't make them a bad class or even the worst T1 class necessarily, because a Druid played right can still utterly break games, but still. If you want to compare the raw power of spell lists, Druid is pretty much the bottom of T1.
Yeah, it's certainly at the bottom of that particular barrel. Still, the spell list is just what gets the druid into tier one. The other class features and stats determine its positioning somewhat, so it shuffles around a bit within the tier depending on level. For example, at level one the druid is likely the best tier one, owing to the animal companion and chassis, while at level twenty it's likely the worst tier one, owing to the fact that the druid only has one of the ultra-9th's. Shapechange might be enough on its own to hold some kind of parity with even a wizard, as it's entirely possible that shapechange just subsumes all other forms of power within its girth, but if you're not really pushing shapechange to pick up all the other 9th's, then you're behind.

In between those two you have about 10 levels, from 1-10, where a druid is likely ahead of a wizard, and 10 levels, from 11-20, where a druid is likely behind. The druid is in possession of a higher floor, but likely a lower ceiling, especially because wizard PrC options are superior if you ban planar shepherd. In other words, the issue of druidic standing within the tier is a bit more complicated than their tier ranking.

Edit:
Everyone talks smack about the Druid list, but I've always thought it was far more useful than the cleric list. Especially with splats. The Druid basically has a spell to emulate many of the good wizard spells.
Yeah, it's pretty sweet. I think the cleric love is at least partially because of domains, and also partially because of DMM persist. Also, druids have pretty limited high quality minionmancy, which can be problematic at the higher echelons of power.

[ryu]

Everyone talks smack about the Druid list, but I've always thought it was far more useful than the cleric list. Especially with splats. The Druid basically has a spell to emulate many of the good wizard spells.

Cleric has domains though. If he's trying for the widest set of options? As many as several of them. Cleric list simply doesn't compare to wizard list without severe optimization, but there's more general potential there than druid.

[limejuicepowder]

Everyone talks smack about the Druid list, but I've always thought it was far more useful than the cleric list. Especially with splats. The Druid basically has a spell to emulate many of the good wizard spells.

I agree with this. Maybe it's just my style, but the cleric list never jived with me. No matter what level cleric I'm making, I don't know what spell to pick. It seems like far too many of the cleric spells are short-term, weak buffs or ridiculously specific status removers. The best cleric spells seem to come from domains; i.e., someone else's list.

The druid spell list on the other hand, while it has it's share of crap, is also full of obvious gems.

[Kennisiou]

The druid spell list on the other hand, while it has it's share of crap, is also full of obvious gems.

It absolutely is! That really was far from the point of my post. Druid has a really amazing spell list for sure. Thing is, everything else in tier 1? There are two classes in that tier whose spell lists aren't just "Druid spell list PLUS all these other spells!" and those are Wizard and Cleric. Druid may actually be better than Cleric depending on domain selection, although I'm personally more a fan of the Cleric list myself (especially if you nab the spell domain. Anyspell, greater anyspell, and miracle all together mean you can basically nab the best parts of any spell list a few times a day). But, like, Artificer? It has the druid spell list. StP Erudite? It has the druid spell list (I misremembered earlier but checked, they can, in fact, learn any spell they want). Archivist? It's a pain in the ass, but they can get the entire Druid spell list if they really want to. The only classes in t1 you can possibly make the case for having worse spell lists than Druid are Wizard (it doesn't have a worse one, just doesn't, but it's not strictly better like archivist, erudite, and artificer), and Cleric.

This isn't a statement that the Druid spell list isn't great. It's amazing. It's incredible. It's enough to make Druid one of the best classes in the game even if you took away all of its other class features. But you can say that about every other tier one class's spell list and for quite a few of them you can say significantly more.

Although this asessment is less true if you consider Wu Jen, Shaman, or Spirit Shaman to be tier 1, since I'd take the Druid list over all of them. They just lack the splatbook support to have a better spell list than druid.

[ranagrande]

Although this asessment is less true if you consider Wu Jen, Shaman, or Spirit Shaman to be tier 1, since I'd take the Druid list over all of them. They just lack the splatbook support to have a better spell list than druid.

The Spirit Shaman spell list is the Druid spell list. If spellcasting is enough to make Druids tier 1, then Spirit Shamans have to be tier 1 as well.

[Spuddles]

Cleric has Planar Ally, which is basically DM fiat, or at least pay gold to get an NPC. At that point why not pay a wizard to bind something for you. At least with Planar Binding a DM cant shut you down.

And a Cleric has Gate.

There's some spell in CChamp that lets you swap domains, so if you pick a pantheon of gods, you can get a ton of domains.

Other than that, I think Druids have a better list in terms of "what problems can you solve." They travel farther, faster, and at a lower level than a cleric. Their mobility options pretty much always beat a cleric who hasnt found a way to put polymorph on their list. Their battlefield control is almost on par with a wizard, depending on level.

Clerics just get a ton of temp buffs that give you +hit. I dont rank that very highly.

[Kennisiou]

The Spirit Shaman spell list is the Druid spell list. If spellcasting is enough to make Druids tier 1, then Spirit Shamans have to be tier 1 as well.

After reading this I doublechecked what Spirit Shaman was and they aren't, as I remembered, just an update-but-not-really of the OA Shaman class. Looking at them, I can see why there's debate between T1 and T2 for them. They're pretty much just "preparing" a list of spells known each morning out of all the druid spells and then spontaneously casting off of them like a sorceror, but they're MAD and can't do a lot of things a Druid can to become more flexible, especially since Druids and Clerics are both capable repreparing their spell lists multiple times a day by RAW (can't find the reference for this, but it was posted in a couple of threads before). I'd say they're T2, since they don't have access to the whole list in a single day like Druid does, meaning they're a lot less flexible.

[eggynack]

The Spirit Shaman spell list is the Druid spell list. If spellcasting is enough to make Druids tier 1, then Spirit Shamans have to be tier 1 as well.
What? No. The spirit shaman list is the druid list, in the same way that the sorcerer list is the wizard list. I mean, you definitely have a greater access to changing than a sorcerer does, but you still lack a great deal of spell versatility on a slot for slot basis, and you lack the spontaneous summoning that allows the druid to prep some really situational stuff. They have a decent casting mechanic, but it is by no means the same casting mechanic, especially because it leaves an odd amount of room to be screwed by the DM with the odd bargaining thing. Also, they have that weird split stat thing.

[Gwendol]

Cleric has Planar Ally, which is basically DM fiat, or at least pay gold to get an NPC. At that point why not pay a wizard to bind something for you. At least with Planar Binding a DM cant shut you down.



Really?
Let's see, Planar Binding:
Casting this spell attempts a dangerous act: to lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap, which must lie within the spell’s range. The called creature is held in the trap until it agrees to perform one service in return for its freedom.

Planar ally:
By casting this spell, you request your deity to send you an elemental or outsider (of 6 HD or less) of the deity’s choice. If you serve no particular deity, the spell is a general plea answered by a creature sharing your philosophical alignment. If you know an individual creature’s name, you may request that individual by speaking the name during the spell (though you might get a different creature anyway).

So you trade one DM fiat for another. In the end, Planar ally is unequivocally less risky for the caster.

The cleric casting is different, but not less potent than the druid's and as has been discussed at length before, close to wizard power on paper. In practical terms though, they get miracle, which can be anything really.

[eggynack]

So you trade one DM fiat for another. In the end, Planar ally is unequivocally less risky for the caster.
I don't see how binding is fiat, or really all that dangerous. You pick the creature you want, and you can generally assure the success of every step of the process. The only risk at any point is the potential future revenge of the bound creature. With planar ally, there's certainly less future risk, but you have absolutely no control of what creature you call, and you have to pay a good deal of money and XP for the creature to help. It's a good spell, certainly, but a lack of choice is very problematic.


The cleric casting is different, but not less potent than the druid's and as has been discussed at length before, close to wizard power on paper. In practical terms though, they get miracle, which can be anything really.
Miracle is practically meaningless for tier discussion. It's a 9th level spell, which means that it comes into play at a level which has little influence over 9th level power, and it's a 9th level spell, which means that any tier one caster can do just about anything with shapechange. The two lists are certainly comparable, though I have a general preference for the druid list. I do wish that it had more minionmancy though. Fey ring, valiant steed, and cry of ysgard just aren't enough sometimes, especially when both other tier one options have access to both spells, and rarely even consider them because they're such low quality minionmancy spells. Using fey ring at 20th to get a spirit of the land is pretty sweet though. Infinite earthquakes forever.

[Drachasor]

Hmm, this makes me realize a big problem with the Tier System.

A multi-gestalt of pretty much every Tier 3 class is still Tier 3, yes? Because there's nothing any of them have that rewrites the rules of the game (they'd be Tier 2 then), and I don't think there are any abilities that combine to Tier 2 without one of them being a Tier 2 ability itself.

[eggynack]

Hmm, this makes me realize a big problem with the Tier System.

A multi-gestalt of pretty much every Tier 3 class is still Tier 3, yes? Because there's nothing any of them have that rewrites the rules of the game (they'd be Tier 2 then), and I don't think there are any abilities that combine to Tier 2 without one of them being a Tier 2 ability itself.
Is that a problem with the tier system? Seems like it might be a problem with the game's balance. Anyway, I don't think that a hyper-gestalt gets you over three, but you're putting a bunch of crappy spell lists together, so you might just get one good spell list. I mean you're already rocking mastery over three schools of magic, as well as some of the best melee skill the game has to offer, shackled to the occasional action manipulation of a factotum, and that's just a start.

[Drachasor]

Is that a problem with the tier system? Seems like it might be a problem with the game's balance. Anyway, I don't think that a hyper-gestalt gets you over three, but you're putting a bunch of crappy spell lists together, so you might just get one good spell list. I mean you're already rocking mastery over three schools of magic, as well as some of the best melee skill the game has to offer, shackled to the occasional action manipulation of a factotum, and that's just a start.

It's a problem with the Tier System, as it is rating a Bard and Bard//Beguiler//Dread Necromancer//Swordsage//Factotum//Crusader//Warblade//etc as in the same Tier of power. They aren't, not at all. Heck, you could gestalt everything Tier 3 and below and stay in Tier 3. In other words, you could be really awesome at everything the game expects challenges to appear as and you are in the same Tier as the guy who's just awesome on a few of them. There's really a huge difference between the two, don't you think?

[eggynack]

It's a problem with the Tier System, as it is rating a Bard and Bard//Beguiler//Dread Necromancer//Swordsage//Factotum//Crusader//Warblade//etc as in the same Tier of power. They aren't, not at all. Heck, you could gestalt everything Tier 3 and below and stay in Tier 3. In other words, you could be really awesome at everything the game expects challenges to appear as and you are in the same Tier as the guy who's just awesome on a few of them. There's really a huge difference between the two, don't you think?
I guess that makes some sense. I figure that at some point you have to sacrifice some degree of accuracy for simplicity and ease of use. I mean, your hyper-gestalt isn't an actual game object, so there isn't nearly as much existing class based room between 3 and 2 as your theoretical construct indicates. A bard is just about the top of tier three, and a favored soul is just about the bottom of tier two, I guess (I don't know which class people claim for that position), and there's no bard//crusader hanging out between them. There's a big jump in the actual game, so there necessarily has to be one in the tier system.

[Malroth]

A bard or factotum gestaulted with Dread Necro could arguably become a low tier 2, but none of the others would get the potiential for the broken stuff that defines tier 2.

[ranagrande]

A gestalt of everything Tier 3 and below would probably be Tier 1, or a very high Tier 2.

[hymer]

@ Spirit Shaman: It's worth noting that the most spells per level the shammy gets is 3, making him/her look like a blaster. S/he can have any three s/he wants ready by tomorrow (which could be argued to be enough for tier 1), but on a given day s/he would have to rely on scrolls or runestaffs or something to have the width available to the druid. Which the druid could also do, and keep the advantage.

[eggynack]

A gestalt of everything Tier 3 and below would probably be Tier 1, or a very high Tier 2.
I'm not sure if you're right on that. I mean, what long distance teleportation options do you have? What's your best/earliest flight method? How does your BFC capacity compare to a full caster? How's about long range communication? Or planar travel of any kind? Sure, at 9th level spells you have gate, but what are you pulling out at 8th's, and how does it compare to PAO, or any of the crazy area SoL effects that casters get? What's your main method of destroying a town or city, how early can you pull it off, and how effective is it? What does your list of utility and divination effects look like? It's just a whole hell of a lot of stuff to parse through, and just tossing out a tier without substantiation is problematic.

[Drachasor]

I guess that makes some sense. I figure that at some point you have to sacrifice some degree of accuracy for simplicity and ease of use. I mean, your hyper-gestalt isn't an actual game object, so there isn't nearly as much existing class based room between 3 and 2 as your theoretical construct indicates. A bard is just about the top of tier three, and a favored soul is just about the bottom of tier two, I guess (I don't know which class people claim for that position), and there's no bard//crusader hanging out between them. There's a big jump in the actual game, so there necessarily has to be one in the tier system.

I'm just not seeing what you combine to make a couple Tier 2s into Tier 3...unless the Tier 3 classification is a bit debatable already.

I think mega-gestalt would make a huge difference at the actual table too, so it isn't a trivial difference. I think this stems from the fact the tier system has two axes of power (raw power and versatility) but stuffs them into one axis. A grid system would demonstrate the difference here better.


A gestalt of everything Tier 3 and below would probably be Tier 1, or a very high Tier 2.

It can't be as I understand it. Tier 1 is basically capable of wrecking the game, because they can not just do anything, but they can completely change the entire game dynamic because of special abilities. They can bypass obstacles and difficulties the game assumes are there, etc, etc.

Tier 2 is like that, but they have a more limited number of ways they can do this. Pretty much if you have one way you can do this, you are Tier 2.

So anything with such an ability is Tier 2+ already. Combining all the abilities of stuff below Tier 2 is unlikely to give you that capability, because abilities don't tend to stack like that in D&D.

[eggynack]

I'm just not seeing what you combine to make a couple Tier 2s into Tier 3...unless the Tier 3 classification is a bit debatable already.
I think you meant that the opposite way, and I'm not sure there needs to be anything of that kind. The area between tier three and tier two is quite broad, but that's just because the area between the two groups is quite broad. What should exist to accommodate this need? Should there be some tier three ultra, which can successfully fill more niches than any tier three, and yet lacks the game breaking power of a tier two? I just don't think it's the tier system's responsibility to have categories for things that don't exist. I mean, what if commoners and wizards were the only two classes. You'd have tier one, for wizards, and tier two, for commoners, and tier one would be classified by its ability to do everything, and tier two for its ability to do nothing. You wouldn't need three tiers, with tier two as a class that can do more than nothing and less than everything, because such a class is nonexistent.

[ranagrande]

It can't be as I understand it. Tier 1 is basically capable of wrecking the game, because they can not just do anything, but they can completely change the entire game dynamic because of special abilities. They can bypass obstacles and difficulties the game assumes are there, etc, etc.

Tier 2 is like that, but they have a more limited number of ways they can do this. Pretty much if you have one way you can do this, you are Tier 2.

So anything with such an ability is Tier 2+ already. Combining all the abilities of stuff below Tier 2 is unlikely to give you that capability, because abilities don't tend to stack like that in D&D.
Your hypothetical gestalt can do that too though. Just looking at Tier 3, you'd have an Ardent//Bard//Beguiler//Binder//Crusader//Dread Necromancer//Duskblade//Factotum//Incarnate//Psychic Rogue//Psychic Warrior//Shadowcaster//Shugenja//Swordsage//Warblade//Wilder//Wildshape Ranger.

Just with the psionics and spellcasting, you've got plenty of game-breaking tricks. When you add in all of the class features and then throw in all of the lower tiers as well, I'd say it's a solid Tier 1.

[Drachasor]

I think you meant that the opposite way, and I'm not sure there needs to be anything of that kind. The area between tier three and tier two is quite broad, but that's just because the area between the two groups is quite broad. What should exist to accommodate this need? Should there be some tier three ultra, which can successfully fill more niches than any tier three, and yet lacks the game breaking power of a tier two? I just don't think it's the tier system's responsibility to have categories for things that don't exist. I mean, what if commoners and wizards were the only two classes. You'd have tier one, for wizards, and tier two, for commoners, and tier one would be classified by its ability to do everything, and tier two for its ability to do nothing. You wouldn't need three tiers, with tier two as a class that can do more than nothing and less than everything, because such a class is nonexistent.

In terms of classifying power it makes a difference, because these sorts of differences do exist. Sure my example was extreme, but that was more to illustrate a point this thread made clear to me.

[Gnaeus]

In my opinion, What is necessary to drop druid out of Tier 1 into Tier 3 is Pathfinder.

Take away all the best buffs and the good low-mid level attack spells from the list. since those were mostly in SPC. Nerf Summon Natures ally massively, especially on the utility front. Nerf shapechange and Wild Shape. Nerf the AC, including a nerf to Share Spells so that all those lovely personal and animal buffs are much less powerful. Force the class to specialize in order to be effective.

[eggynack]

In terms of classifying power it makes a difference, because these sorts of differences do exist. Sure my example was extreme, but that was more to illustrate a point this thread made clear to me.
If it makes an actual difference, then that's a difference that you probably have to classify within the rules themselves, instead of with hypothetical extreme cases.

[Drachasor]

In my opinion, What is necessary to drop druid out of Tier 1 into Tier 3 is Pathfinder.

Take away all the best buffs and the good low-mid level attack spells from the list. since those were mostly in SPC. Nerf Summon Natures ally massively, especially on the utility front. Nerf shapechange and Wild Shape. Nerf the AC, including a nerf to Share Spells so that all those lovely personal and animal buffs are much less powerful. Force the class to specialize in order to be effective.

The druid is still Tier 1 in PF. It was Tier 1 in 3.5 CORE. PF nerfs it and it is less powerful, but it is not that much less powerful.

I will say PF did a really weird thing where it made the Summon Monster spells completely better than Summon Nature's Ally (to the point of the same level spells in SM having some NA creatures with a template added on).


If it makes an actual difference, then that's a difference that you probably have to classify within the rules themselves, instead of with hypothetical extreme cases.

It's pretty simple in concept. Because the Tier system merges versatility and power into a one dimensional system, it has points where increased versatility doesn't matter. Tier 3 would be a prime example of this, since what separates T3 and T2 has nothing to do with versatility. It is all about power. Increase the versatility of T3 all you want, but you won't get a T2.

This does make a difference when you are considering how to aim a game at a particular Tier.

[eggynack]

It's pretty simple in concept. Because the Tier system merges versatility and power into a one dimensional system, it has points where increased versatility doesn't matter. Tier 3 would be a prime example of this, since what separates T3 and T2 has nothing to do with versatility. It is all about power. Increase the versatility of T3 all you want, but you won't get a T2.

This does make a difference when you are considering how to aim a game at a particular Tier.
I'm not sure that's entirely what's occurring here. Does the hyper-gestalt have the versatility, defined by the sheer variety of options, that defines the wizard list? There's just so much stuff there, and I don't think you can get it all. Power is certainly a component, but power can sometimes be expressed through versatility. Are you truly versatile if you can't do this list of things all that successfully?

Edit: Basically, the problem is that the tier system is ultimately a measure of neither power nor versatility. It's just a measure of how many problems you are capable of solving, and to what degree, and I'm not sure that you can solve as many problems as a sorcerer can.

[Drachasor]

I'm not sure that's entirely what's occurring here. Does the hyper-gestalt have the versatility, defined by the sheer variety of options, that defines the wizard list? There's just so much stuff there, and I don't think you can get it all. Power is certainly a component, but power can sometimes be expressed through versatility. Are you truly versatile if you can't do this list of things all that successfully?

Edit: Basically, the problem is that the tier system is ultimately a measure of neither power nor versatility. It's just a measure of how many problems you are capable of solving, and to what degree, and I'm not sure that you can solve as many problems as a sorcerer can.

It is a measure of versatility AND power. It's just that T3->T2 requires a power increase. T2->T1, in comparison is just a versatility increase (same with T4->T3). There's a minimum power bar per tier as well. (This inherently correlates with solving problems, because that's the context of the power and versatility).

Hmm, it's kind of like a grid of power and versatility.
?? T2 T1
T4 T3 T3
T5 T5 T5
(Y axis is power, obviously, X is versatility)

Not sure what the guy who only has 1 powerful trick fits in.

The fact you can more or less dump Wild Shape (amazing ability, generally speaking) on anything and it is just T3 shows how a simple linear scale can be problematic. You can effectively increase the versatility power of a T3 a lot, but it remains T3. Despite the fact in play this is a huge difference.


Your hypothetical gestalt can do that too though. Just looking at Tier 3, you'd have an Ardent//Bard//Beguiler//Binder//Crusader//Dread Necromancer//Duskblade//Factotum//Incarnate//Psychic Rogue//Psychic Warrior//Shadowcaster//Shugenja//Swordsage//Warblade//Wilder//Wildshape Ranger.

Just with the psionics and spellcasting, you've got plenty of game-breaking tricks. When you add in all of the class features and then throw in all of the lower tiers as well, I'd say it's a solid Tier 1.

You've got ok Psionics and ok Spellcasting. But the reason why these guys aren't T2/1 is that their lists don't have the right spells. I don't think combining lists together can change that in the tier system, at least as I understand it. Combine two good, but not T1/2 spell lists together and you won't get a T1/2 list.

Though, it can be a bit unclear, imho. In that arguably the Dread Necromancer, for instance, has T2 abilities depending on how the game is run. Which is what I meant by it might depend on the fact some T3 classes don't fit entirely comfortably into T3. But if you lock it into T3, I don't see how adding more T3 or lower abilities will change that.

In terms of solving problems, T1/2 requires the a capability to render a problem non-existent because they can just completely ignore it/rewrite the rules/etc. T3 just doesn't have that, as I understand it, and can't get it without more RAW power.

It's like if you had a class that could make and control unlimited numbers of zombies, ghouls, shadows, and other non-caster undead undead, then it wouldn't get to T2/1 even if it could potentially overwhem the world with said undead. Its class of power is just mundane. It's on too low a level.

Again, that's an extreme example. But it matters when you consider the "high T3" can mean that it has a crapton of versatility (imho) or it could mean on the cusp of T2. And that's a pretty big difference and it matters if you are trying to play a T3 game or whatever.

[Killer Angel]

Okay, real talk here, would a Druid with no class features, poor BAB, poor Reflex and Will, and d4 HD really be Tier 1 simply by virtue of its spell list?

Then, that's no more a druid.
It's a character with a very weak chassis, that by luck can cast from a low T1 spell list.

this character would be a high T2, or a low T1.

[Gwendol]

A gestalt Warmage/DN/Beguiler would be quite potent. Like a sorcerer, but with more spell versatility.

[limejuicepowder]

I think it's important to note that a t3 class can still be broken - t1 and 2 don't have a monopoly on that. If a class existed that was a combination of all of the t3's, it would be pretty game-wrecking.

-Effectively unlimited spells, up to ninth level, from good spell lists. The beguiler and dread necro can solve a lot of problems individually; together, the class would probably have at least 3 or 4 ways to solve any given problem. And that's just with these spell lists.

-Highest Bab, all good saves, high skill points, all skills as class skills. All mundane stuff of course, but it matters.

-All of the maneuvers. AMF? I don't care, eat a Time Stands Still/Raging Mongoose/full attack with cunning surge'd strike of perfect clarity + 5 shadow ice enervation + oh I'm going to do it again with white raven tactics.

-Almost complete destruction of the action economy via factotum, wrt, and psionic powers like hustle. This provides an easy avenue to actually use all of the options this class would have.

-Incredible potential for self-buff with totemist, psychic warrior, etc. The need for magic items would be quite low.

And that's just the obvious stuff. Granted, this class won't ever be immune to harm like a twice betrayer of shar, or "adventure" using an ice assassin copy while watching safely from his own demiplane, but it'd still utterly wreck most games by simple virtue of having absolutely no weaknesses....at all. Playing this would completely nuts, you'd have at least a half dozen ways of solving anything you might encounter.

The more I think about it, the more I think this class is at least t2, if not 1. It's OP floor is extremely high, to the point where the only characters that would overshadow it are near-TO clerics, sorcs, and wizards. If game breaking is a measure of t1 and 2, this guy's got it.

[Gwendol]

Actually, a lot of the things this Super-T3 can do is done with little to no effort. Some of it will be best in class material, even.

[Zanos]

-Effectively unlimited spells, up to ninth level, from good spell lists. The beguiler and dread necro can solve a lot of problems individually; together, the class would probably have at least 3 or 4 ways to solve any given problem. And that's just with these spell lists.
Honestly the gestalt of these three classes creates at least a tier 2, especially since you can cherry pick spells from four schools with your various advanced learnings.

[Drachasor]

Honestly the gestalt of these three classes creates at least a tier 2, especially since you can cherry pick spells from four schools with your various advanced learnings.

I'd argue you might well get a Tier 2 build of a Dread Necromancer or the like with careful spell selection like that. Honestly I always felt like the DN and Beguiler didn't fit well into Tier 3 due to a spell or two (but in that sense, this is easily fixed, which perhaps makes them Tier 3). Do the easy fixes and this is a Tier 3 build.

We could put it another way. Give a Bard access to ALL bard spells with unlimited slots. Still Tier 3. Toss on a Warblade, Swordsage, and Crusader. Still Tier 3. Add Wildshape Ranger. Still Tier 3.

Because


Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Examples: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Erudite

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

They just don't have any Nukes. No worldshaking power. Yet, such modifications of classes clearly makes them far, far better than other Tier 3s. This is where the problem of squeezing two axes of strength (versatility and raw power) into one has some problems. Which is not to say the Tier system is useless.

Hmm, this has gotten rather off-topic though, and maybe deserves another thread. I had only meant to make a side comment and it kind of snowballed.

[eggynack]

Indeed. Let us discuss random druid high op stuff. For example, I'm pretty sure you can use form of the killer to cancel out megalodon empowerment's duration, thus ending the spell stopping effect. That might mean actually reasonable access to gargantuan animal forms. There aren't that many of those, but it's a neat thing that turns completely not-viable into only mostly not-viable. View in horror the immense impact this has on tier ranking. Truly there is no better thing to use your 8th level spells on.

[Corinath]

So, I'm hearing a lot of people basically say the reason they're T1 is because of their spell casting, more than anything else. And, at the same time, I see people recommending Monk/Ninja/Swordsage(different thread) as the Gestalt class to pair it with.

But, if their spell casting is where it's at, wouldn't it be ideal to Gestalt them with a class that really augments their spell casting (I don't know Spirit Totemist that well. Will look into it later)? Is there a Wis SAD class that does that? (He's likely going to be an anthropomorphic bat. +6 Wis, Dark vision, Blindsense 20ft)

Otherwise, I'm inclined to recommend Swordsage, as I know the class pretty well, and this is honestly one of the first times I've seen people recommend Ninja or Monk at all (except for a 2 lvl Invisible Way Martial Monk Dip). And he wants to focus on the casting aspect of the Druid more than anything else, and I feel like Swordsage has a lot of maneuvers that can help him do that if he wants.

[eggynack]

But, if their spell casting is where it's at, wouldn't it be ideal to Gestalt them with a class that really augments their spell casting
What would it mean for a class to augment their spell casting? I mean, maybe factotum, and that might just be the answer, but it's kinda MAD. I'm not entirely sure that a gestalted class augmenting your spell casting is a thing. You're probably better off just making your chassis more efficient, thus making your mobile missile defense platform more efficient.

[hymer]

@ Corinath: The reason people are recommending things like Monk is that a lot of what a monk gives a druid gestalt is passive: Up the Reflex save, evasion, wis to AC, movement bonus. All of these are just there. Because a Druid is likely to find something to do in most rounds (even if it's simply bashing skulls in bear form), and something pretty powerful if so desired (like summoning or direct BFC). They don't need a whole new set of options, and adding more options is less useful than strengthening them passively.

That's the idea anyway.

[WhamBamSam]

So, I'm hearing a lot of people basically say the reason they're T1 is because of their spell casting, more than anything else. And, at the same time, I see people recommending Monk/Ninja/Swordsage(different thread) as the Gestalt class to pair it with.

But, if their spell casting is where it's at, wouldn't it be ideal to Gestalt them with a class that really augments their spell casting (I don't know Spirit Totemist that well. Will look into it later)? Is there a Wis SAD class that does that? (He's likely going to be an anthropomorphic bat. +6 Wis, Dark vision, Blindsense 20ft)

Otherwise, I'm inclined to recommend Swordsage, as I know the class pretty well, and this is honestly one of the first times I've seen people recommend Ninja or Monk at all (except for a 2 lvl Invisible Way Martial Monk Dip). And he wants to focus on the casting aspect of the Druid more than anything else, and I feel like Swordsage has a lot of maneuvers that can help him do that if he wants.As I mentioned earlier, a 1 level Cloistered Cleric dip would get access to a bunch of devotional feats/domain powers and Turn Undead, which would mean access to Divine Metamagic for Druid spells. If you can get Divine Grace somehow (it's a bit problematic, though still doable, with the Druid alignment restrictions), you can use the Serenity feat from Dragon Compendium to get Turn Attempts and Divine Grace save bonuses to key off Wis instead of Cha.

Swordsage is probably as good an option as any though. He can stick to the less strike oriented side of things and have good defenses and extra options without burning too many actions that could be better spent on spellcasting. Also because at high levels Shapechanging into a Mercury Dragon and one shotting an encounter with Tornado Throw is fun.

[Corinath]

As I mentioned earlier, a 1 level Cloistered Cleric dip would get access to a bunch of devotional feats/domain powers and Turn Undead, which would mean access to Divine Metamagic for Druid spells. If you can get Divine Grace somehow (it's a bit problematic, though still doable, with the Druid alignment restrictions), you can use the Serenity feat from Dragon Compendium to get Turn Attempts and Divine Grace save bonuses to key off Wis instead of Cha.

Swordsage is probably as good an option as any though. He can stick to the less strike oriented side of things and have good defenses and extra options without burning too many actions that could be better spent on spellcasting. Also because at high levels Shapechanging into a Mercury Dragon and one shotting an encounter with Tornado Throw is fun.

Ahhh I get it. It's less that the druid will have more things to do, and more that it'll just get passively better at what it does already.

I love CC dips. I'll definitely be recommending that to the player.

But, uh, What about a Mercury dragon?

[WhamBamSam]

Ahhh I get it. It's less that the druid will have more things to do, and more that it'll just get passively better at what it does already.

I love CC dips. I'll definitely be recommending that to the player.

But, uh, What about a Mercury dragon?Shapechange lets you change your shape as a free action. Mercury Dragons have stupidly high fly speeds and Tornado Throw lets you move up to twice your speed, making trip throws every 10 ft, with a bonus to the check based on how far you've already moved during your turn, and with more damage being dealt by the throw based on how much you win the check by.

So it basically works like this...

Druid has Shapechange up at the beginning of his turn.
Free Action: Shapechange into a Mercury Dragon. You now have a fly speed of (probably) 250 ft with good maneuverability.
Swift Action: Initiate Quicksilver Motion (Travel Devotion would also work) to move 250 ft. Try to position yourself 10 ft away from being able to reach an enemy.
Full-round Action: Initiate Tornado Throw. Move 500 ft making trip throws with check mods that the Tarrasque can't beat on a 20 every 10 ft (Your first check is something on the order of +120 from the 250 ft of Quicksilver Motion movement and the dragon's size and Str, while Big T's opposed check is somewhere in the 40s from being a Collosal quadruped with 45 Str, and the trip checks go up by 4 each throw). Bounce your enemies around like so many basketballs until they die.

Takes 6 seconds plus time spent recovering manuevers out of Shapechange's duration, and otherwise does not expend any resources. Shapechanging into a Force Dragon Wyrmling instead of a Mercury Dragon gets you the same fly speed (though only at poor maneuverability), but allows you to fly though walls of force and ignore force damage while you're doing this.

[Draz74]

So, I'm hearing a lot of people basically say the reason they're T1 is because of their spell casting, more than anything else. And, at the same time, I see people recommending Monk/Ninja/Swordsage(different thread) as the Gestalt class to pair it with.

But, if their spell casting is where it's at, wouldn't it be ideal to Gestalt them with a class that really augments their spell casting (I don't know Spirit Totemist that well. Will look into it later)? Is there a Wis SAD class that does that? (He's likely going to be an anthropomorphic bat. +6 Wis, Dark vision, Blindsense 20ft)

Otherwise, I'm inclined to recommend Swordsage, as I know the class pretty well, and this is honestly one of the first times I've seen people recommend Ninja or Monk at all (except for a 2 lvl Invisible Way Martial Monk Dip). And he wants to focus on the casting aspect of the Druid more than anything else, and I feel like Swordsage has a lot of maneuvers that can help him do that if he wants.

Like Eggy said, there's not many Gestalt options that really augment spellcasting. 8 Levels of Factotum or 7 Levels of Telepath (plus some feats, possibly) can do it, but that's a pretty high cost and makes you need Intelligence to be really effective. 1 Level of Cleric and some feats can also augment your spellcasting in some cool ways, but that hardly uses up all of your Gestalt build options.

But you're right that the Monk and Ninja suggestions are kinda based on the assumption that the Druid will be melee-ing a fair amount of the time. They're less attractive for a caster-focused Druid. (A 1-level dip in Ninja is probably still a good idea, for the 8 extra skill points at Level 1, and the WIS-to-AC.) Also, part of the reason we enjoy recommending these classes for Druid Gestalt is because they aren't very useful for almost anything else. :smallwink:

Hmmmm, I'm not an Incarnum expert, but I think Incarnates have a few Soulmelds that give powerful enhancements to spellcasting. Soulmelds that normally don't get used much because getting them would lose caster levels ... but that's not really a problem in Gestalt. So Druid//Incarnate could be very potent -- and could also be an excellent candidate for Vow of Poverty.

How exactly are you expecting Swordsage to enhance spellcasting ability? I guess defensive and mobility options kinda enhance spellcasting indirectly. But that's about it.

Long story short, the best option for a casting-focused Druid gestalt is a crazy mish-mash of multiclassing, and/or a focus on Incarnate levels. Hmmm ... Druid 20 // Ninja 1 / Cloistered Cleric 1 / Ardent 2 / Swordsage 1 / War Mind 2 / Swordsage 1 / War Mind 3 / Incarnate 9 ... something like that.

I'd skip the Mercury Dragon, because a lot of what the Druid does isn't very dependent on race anyway, or outright replaces the race's advantages. Also, the Druid can get almost as good mobility as a Mercury Dragon just by casting Bottle of Smoke (the Druid list's copy of Phantom Steed).

[Twilightwyrm]

Honestly, druid probably has the worst spell list in T1. To compare with the other T1 classes...

Wizard -- better list than Druid. No real way to debate this.
Archivist -- Contains the Cleric spell list as well as every domain spell, the druid spell list, the ranger and paladin spell list, the bard spell list (for divine bards), and a whole ton of other spells off of random stuff like blackgaurd. While it doesn't have easy access to it, the list itself is better than the Druid's by far (considering it contains the whole Druid spell list).
Artificer -- Contains basically every spell on their "spell list" since they can emulate the spell, make a scroll/other item of it, then cast it off that item with use magic device. Takes a lot of prep work but it's still a massive list of spells that it has access to and the prep time is negligible later with access to spells to manipulate time/space.
StP Erudite -- Wizard Spell list + Psion power list. Way better than Druid.
Cleric -- Finally, something that might have a worse spell list in T1 than Druid. Cleric and Druid's spell lists are much more comparable, with each having some good spells the other lacks. Most people would consider Cleric to be better and I'd agree, but it's not by much.

So unless you're counting stuff like WuJen, Shugenja, Spirit Shaman and Shaman as T1 (all of them can make a claim on it and have arguably worse spell lists than Druid does), Druid is probably actually the worst spell list in T1. Doesn't make them a bad class or even the worst T1 class necessarily, because a Druid played right can still utterly break games, but still. If you want to compare the raw power of spell lists, Druid is pretty much the bottom of T1.

Oh I completely agree. What I suppose I meant is that Druid has a decent spell list in general, eve if it is specifically one of the best T1 lists. But yeah, considering how much of the Druid list the other T1s have access to, it really is only between that and the cleric. Generally I would go for the Druid, as a matter of personal preference, but from a strictly strategic standpoint, having straight access to Miracle gives the Cleric a considerable edge.

[Rubik]

Psion (which is best, but requires Int -- not that you can't afford it in anything but low point-buy) or ardent (not nearly as good, but has Wis synergy) would help the druid to break the action economy with psionic powers (and doubly so, with the right feats), and depending on the other powers he takes, he could have some extremely nice buffs and oddball effects not found anywhere else.

For instance, take the Synchronicity power, the Linked Power feat, and Metapower (Synchronicity + Linked Power). Now when you manifest Synchronicity, you use Linked Power on it and manifest another power worth 2 power points for free (or gain +2 free points of augmentation if you want) and still have your standard action for the round. If that second power is Synchronicity, congratulations -- you now have two standard actions next round! Combine with Hustle, Schism, Psicrystal + Metamorphosis, Anticipatory Strike, Temporal Acceleration, and Fission, and you've got all sorts of ways to abuse the action economy like it's the whiny little accident you didn't want.

[edit] Totemist 2/psion/soul manifester would be ideal, I think.

[Coidzor]

My understanding is that if we're talking Gestalt, and you're wanting some swordsagery, something like Druid 20//Cloistered Cleric 1/Spirit Lion Totem Urban Brawler Barbarian 1/Factotum 8/Swordsage 10 would get you Cloistered Cleric's benefits, Improved Unarmed strike and the ability to TWF with it and pounce in all forms from Barbarian, extra standard actions and other Factotum goodies, and Initiator Level 15 from Swordsage as well as Wisdom to AC. Sub in two levels of Totemist and you'd get some extra natural weapons for all forms using, most likely, either the Lamia Belt or Girallon Arms and IL 13.

I don't recall ToB that well, so I can't recall exactly when you get diminishing returns from the boosts/counters/stances of Swordsage, but I think things slack off a bit after 7th level maneuvers. Ideally one would have X6/Martial Adept 14 for IL 17 and access to 9th level maneuvers, which Totemist 4/Barb 1/CC 1 or Totemist 5/CC 1 would get you as well...

If caster focused though, that does largely go out the window, though with a non Totemist/Psion(orArdent)/Soul Manifester version, there's still about 4 levels of dips that an Ardent side of a gestalt could safely make thanks to Practiced Manifester.


Hmm, this makes me realize a big problem with the Tier System.

A multi-gestalt of pretty much every Tier 3 class is still Tier 3, yes? Because there's nothing any of them have that rewrites the rules of the game (they'd be Tier 2 then), and I don't think there are any abilities that combine to Tier 2 without one of them being a Tier 2 ability itself.

I'm not so sure that it'd be that easy to rule out the possibility off the cuff, Shugenja//Dread Necromancer//Beguiler//Factotum seems like it might have the potential to break into T2. Where Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Shugenja are each individually limited in their access to all 9 spell levels, the increased breadth offered by putting them together and the extra standard actions of Factotum may bridge the gap to make them comparable to the low T2 classes.

I'd also thought Ardent was in that place where it's almost T2 itself, I might be misremembering completely though, but it seems adding some solid T3 casting on top of that may bump it over the hump.

Can't remember whether OA Shaman is T2 or T3 though, but if it is T3, it'd help as well, since, IIRC, its list is roughly comparable to that of Wu Jen or core-only druid.

Rule out the ones that get 9th level spells/powers and it becomes much more difficult to imagine breaking out of T3, I'll agree.

[Phelix-Mu]

What? No. The spirit shaman list is the druid list, in the same way that the sorcerer list is the wizard list. I mean, you definitely have a greater access to changing than a sorcerer does, but you still lack a great deal of spell versatility on a slot for slot basis, and you lack the spontaneous summoning that allows the druid to prep some really situational stuff. They have a decent casting mechanic, but it is by no means the same casting mechanic, especially because it leaves an odd amount of room to be screwed by the DM with the odd bargaining thing. Also, they have that weird split stat thing.

The weird split stat thing drives me crazy. It's present in a few of the lower tier casters, and it seems like a needless attempt to dial back on the excess of full casters (even though none of the casters with the split-stat casting can even hold a candle to the worst offenders of the lot in the PHB). I don't understand how they came up with it, and I kind of feel that, while it's not a a bad sentiment (too much SAD is almost as bad for the game as too much MAD), it's implemented so terribly and randomly that it really just about destroys what little hope the concepts that it appears in had.

Although, come to think of it, are archivists split-stat? The other one I was thinking of was...Healer? Ah, can't remember off the top of my head. Regardless, that bit of design always bothered me.

There is just about nothing intelligent to say on the OP's topic that hasn't already been said multiple times. Oh, happy day!

[Coidzor]

The weird split stat thing drives me crazy. It's present in a few of the lower tier casters, and it seems like a needless attempt to dial back on the excess of full casters (even though none of the casters with the split-stat casting can even hold a candle to the worst offenders of the lot in the PHB). I don't understand how they came up with it, and I kind of feel that, while it's not a a bad sentiment (too much SAD is almost as bad for the game as too much MAD), it's implemented so terribly and randomly that it really just about destroys what little hope the concepts that it appears in had.

Although, come to think of it, are archivists split-stat? The other one I was thinking of was...Healer? Ah, can't remember off the top of my head. Regardless, that bit of design always bothered me.

One of the first things to fix about most of them, yeah. I'd rule it a failed experiment myself. *shrug*

Archivists are Wisdom/Int split, yeah. I think Int is save DCs and spell level that one can cast and Wis is bonus spells. I think Healer is Wisdom-SAD.

[Zweisteine]

it's the weakest of the three core T1s

That's up for debate, especially if you don't count the difference in the amount of love druids and clerics got in splatbooks.

[Phelix-Mu]

That's up for debate, especially if you don't count the difference in the amount of love druids and clerics got in splatbooks.

Wait, you mean prc-wise? Cause there are actually some pretty awesome spells out there for druid beyond core. Same goes for cleric, so I assume you are talking about PrCs. Clerics also get some better feat selection (like the ubiquitous DMM), while Wild Feats are pretty not-as-good-as just Wild Shape. The summoning buff-feats are nice (though often setting specific, and thus problematic in the eyes of some DMs), but they can be numbered on just about one hand.

The reason druid is noteworthy is that it's not totally impossible to suck at being a low-level cleric or wizard. Clerics probably won't die, and a wizard can always "Run, Forrest, Run," but the druid really has to rely on suicide if they want to really be terrible at low levels. Cleric and wizard catch up quickly (and instantly with even a modicum of optimization), but neither has the out-of-the-box setup that druid has at the lowest levels and with little or no op.

[eggynack]

while Wild Feats are pretty not-as-good-as just Wild Shape.
Yeah, you're better off with one of the big wild shape options, instead of the piddly wild feats. Something like exalted, frozen, or draconic wild shape make a pretty big difference, especially with a mantle of the beast. Swift action dimension door is pretty sweet.

[WhamBamSam]

I'd also thought Ardent was in that place where it's almost T2 itself, I might be misremembering completely though, but it seems adding some solid T3 casting on top of that may bump it over the hump.With the Substitute Power ACF Ardent is pretty decidedly T2. It's a lower T2 than a Psion becuase it has fewer powers known, but you can pick and choose your powers essentially freely, which means you can pick up enough of the really good ones that you'll achieve the sheer power that defines T2.

Ardent would indeed be a solid choice. Action economy breaking and the ability to PsyRef your Animal Companion's feats around to boot. Not too shabby.

Hell, thanks to the way Ardent manifesting progression works, you could use Practiced Manifester to keep your manifesting on pace (just losing out on a few powers known) and fit in some of the other goodies as well.

Druid 20//Cloistered Cleric 1/Monk 1/Ranger 1/Ardent 7/Slayer 10 off the top of my head, though that's a bit melee-centric. Since someone recommended Incarnate, maybe something like Druid 20//Cloistered Cleric 1/Ninja 1/Incarnate 2/Ardent 6/Soul Manifester 10.

[Phelix-Mu]

Yeah, you're better off with one of the big wild shape options, instead of the piddly wild feats. Something like exalted, frozen, or draconic wild shape make a pretty big difference, especially with a mantle of the beast. Swift action dimension door is pretty sweet.

The only ones that would be useful have silly drawbacks like non-stacking (Hide of the Elephant thingy), or are better replicated by spells (Eagle's Wings), or have stupid durations. The 3.0 Blindsight one was good, but I seem to remember that it was nerfed somehow. If it wasn't, that's still pretty good. Actually, scratch that, if you can get it to work like it says in Masters of the Wild, then that is pretty much worth it, especially since the given pre-req (be able to shape into dire bat), comes online pretty early in the game in 3.5. Constant effect blindsight 120' in any form is pretty good (though may be sub-par compared to spells).

I usually blow a spare feat if I have one on Fast Wild Shape, but only because I like being able to milk each round for effectiveness and have the old 2e paranoia about ambushes.

[eggynack]

The 3.0 Blindsight one was good, but I seem to remember that it was nerfed somehow. If it wasn't, that's still pretty good. Actually, scratch that, if you can get it to work like it says in Masters of the Wild, then that is pretty much worth it, especially since the given pre-req (be able to shape into dire bat), comes online pretty early in the game in 3.5. Constant effect blindsight 120' in any form is pretty good (though may be sub-par compared to spells).
It's pretty much equivalent to spell effects, as you can use enhance wild shape on a desmodu hunting bat to get the exact same vision mode. Alternatively, you could hit that point through exalted wild shape, because going celestial gets you Ex abilities of all of your animal forms. Thus, I'd probably pick the ability up another way.


I usually blow a spare feat if I have one on Fast Wild Shape, but only because I like being able to milk each round for effectiveness and have the old 2e paranoia about ambushes.
Eh, mantle is pretty much strictly better. Item instead of feat, swift instead of move, and a minor bonus instead of no bonus. It's a good deal. Also, the dex prerequisite might be problematic, depending on whether you consider the base stats as the only relevant ones, and even if you don't, you still have to deal with occasional low dex forms being incompatible.

[Coidzor]

With the Substitute Power ACF Ardent is pretty decidedly T2. It's a lower T2 than a Psion becuase it has fewer powers known, but you can pick and choose your powers essentially freely, which means you can pick up enough of the really good ones that you'll achieve the sheer power that defines T2.

Ardent would indeed be a solid choice. Action economy breaking and the ability to PsyRef your Animal Companion's feats around to boot. Not too shabby.

I do need to get a better grounding on psionics. In fact, I've been telling myself that for... oh dear, 4 years now, I think. x.x

I didn't even think about Psychic Reformation and Animal Companion. :smallbiggrin: That's great.

[Spuddles]

Druid20//cloistered cleric + prestige classes has always worked pretty well gor me.

[Lans]

I'm not sure if you're right on that. I mean, what long distance teleportation options do you have? Does a 100mph move fill part of the long distance teleportation role? If so Shadow Walk at 11th, teleport at 13th from factotum


What's your best/earliest flight method?
Flight spell and astral vambraces at 8th, air step sandles at 1st,


How does your BFC capacity compare to a full caster?
Really well? Evards, Solid Fog, Grease, shadow caster things, factotum coverage.

How's about long range communication?


Or planar travel of any kind? Sure, at 9th level spells you have gate Pass into shadow as a 5th level mystery. Its like plane shift only like half as good.


but what are you pulling out at 8th's, and how does it compare to PAO, or any of the crazy area SoL effects that casters get?
Dominate monster at 8th


What's your main method of destroying a town or city, how early can you pull it off, and how effective is it?

I'm not sure how full casters normally do this


What does your list of utility and divination effects look like?
Factotum should cover a lot of utility, free divination at 14th from dragon shaman, summon monsters 1-7, greater scrying at 15th,

Im sure theres other

[eggynack]

Stuff
I think a good amount of that checks out, so maybe the hyper-gestalt gets a tier jump. I suppose that between beguiler and necro providing on-level lists, and the factotum filling blanks at higher levels, and then other stuff, you get some degree of game breakingness. I don't think that you're really doing most of this stuff as well as a full caster can, but it's not that far off. I suppose you would have access to city destruction, by the way, due to wightpocalypse. Not as much fun as doing it druid style though, where you cover an entire town in blizzards before laying down a series of earthquakes or something. I don't think that dominate monster is on the same level as what other full casters get, because protection is cheap by that point, but that's a whole different argument.

[AMFV]

I'm not sure if you're right on that. I mean, what long distance teleportation options do you have? What's your best/earliest flight method? How does your BFC capacity compare to a full caster? How's about long range communication? Or planar travel of any kind? Sure, at 9th level spells you have gate, but what are you pulling out at 8th's, and how does it compare to PAO, or any of the crazy area SoL effects that casters get? What's your main method of destroying a town or city, how early can you pull it off, and how effective is it? What does your list of utility and divination effects look like? It's just a whole hell of a lot of stuff to parse through, and just tossing out a tier without substantiation is problematic.

Additionally it's worth noting that destroying a city tends to be higher OP than the tier list simulates. I think the rest of them have been answered, it'd probably be at least a tier 2, albeit a really interesting one. Since you'd have access to several 9th level spells of different spheres, which pretty much defines tier 2.

Although Gestalt wrecks the tier system in any case pretty heavily as it's difficult to parse the system with abilities that create that intense a variance on things.

[eggynack]

Additionally it's worth noting that destroying a city tends to be higher OP than the tier list simulates.
Really? I'd think you could just do it with regular casting, at least on the town scale. I mean, druids can almost certainly pull it, cause their list has a bunch of natural disasters at or above fifth level spells. Depends on how well defended the town is, I guess.

[AMFV]

Really? I'd think you could just do it with regular casting, at least on the town scale. I mean, druids can almost certainly pull it, cause their list has a bunch of natural disasters at or above fifth level spells. Depends on how well defended the town is, I guess.

But it's not in the tier list sample scenarios, and to be honest I've never had a scenario where the players had to destroy a town, that could be considered a fringe scenario, but it's not typical adventuring which is what the tier list normally examines.

[eggynack]

But it's not in the tier list sample scenarios, and to be honest I've never had a scenario where the players had to destroy a town, that could be considered a fringe scenario, but it's not typical adventuring which is what the tier list normally examines.
I suppose. I was just naming cool things that casters can do. It's probably irrelevant, cause the hyper-gestalt seems capable of pulling it off wight-style.

[AMFV]

I suppose. I was just naming cool things that casters can do. It's probably irrelevant, cause the hyper-gestalt seems capable of pulling it off wight-style.

True, I would say the hyper gestalt would probably be too complex in actual play though, so that might actually result in a drop in tier, mostly because the complexity of having multiple spell lists and so many options would be limiting and of itself, requiring a higher degree of system mastery and bookkeeping than most people are wont to do.

[Spuddles]

Wightocalypse via dread necro for low level town destruction