Wizard / Cleric

[Silvanoshei]

Two questions I'm curious about at the moment.

1.) Was 2nd Edition Wizard / Cleric combo just as bad as 3rd Edition? I haven't played enough 2nd edition to tell.

2.) Whats the best Wizard / Cleric combo in 3rd Edition?

[Chronos]

Second edition multiclassing was way more complicated than it needed to be, but the upshot was that if you were a nonhuman and multiclassed, you'd usually be about one level behind in both of your classes, and if you were a human and dual-classed (which was a different thing; yes, humans and everyone else had completely different mechanics for combining classes) you usually went through a phase of completely sucking, before getting to a point where you had one class you dabbled in and another that was usually full-strength or close to it.

And in 3rd edition, the only real way to combine wizard and cleric is via Mystic Theurge, though other combinations are possible if you allow other base classes instead of wizard or cleric (such as Ur-Priest, Archivist, or Sublime Chord).

[Silvanoshei]

So it was way better (nonhuman) in 2nd edition than 3rd, if you just normally multiclass wizard / cleric in 3rd, you just flat out suck. Core only mystic theurge is what... 2 levels behind a wizard or cleric?

[eggynack]

Core only mystic theurge is what... 2 levels behind a wizard or cleric?
Three. Wizard 3/cleric 3/mystic theurge 10/ tragic lack of options 4. You basically need early entry for it to be worthwhile, and even then it's probably not worthwhile in most cases, and as the tragic lack of options indicates, you're going to have a tragic lack of options after you close out on mystic theurge levels.

[WinWin]

A second edition Priest/Mage would probably be a level behind a single classed party member. eg. In a party with a 5th level Wizard, a 6th level Thief and a 5th level Fighter, the Cleric/Wizard would probably be level 5/4 or 4/4 if you were playing a Druid/Mage. It's spellcasting is probably only a level behind its single classed peers. The upshot being they would get full class features, such as they were, from both classes. They would also have to abide by the restrictions of both classes, which might include a code of conduct, or level limits.

Dual classing was sort of similar, with regards gaining the advantages/disadvantages of both classes, but measuring the power difference between editions is not as clear cut as it is with the multiclassing example. There is a big difference between a Cleric 2 that dual classes to Wizard and a Cleric 12 that dual classes to Wizard. It's is like losing a big chunk of your hard-earned class features for a significant portion of your career.

Compare to a Mystic Theurge, which using standard entry, is likely to be 3 level behind it's single classed peers. Unlike in AD&D, the Mystic Theurge sacrifices any non spellcasting advantages they would gain through leveling, such as the ability to Turn Undead or Wild Shape. Some Theurge classes do provide class features though.

[Envyus]

Three. Wizard 3/cleric 3/mystic theurge 10/ tragic lack of options 4. You basically need early entry for it to be worthwhile, and even then it's probably not worthwhile in most cases, and as the tragic lack of options indicates, you're going to have a tragic lack of options after you close out on mystic theurge levels.
Why not just go True Necromancer for the last 4.

[Reprimand]

isn't that a 3 level prc?

EDIT: Well, I stand corrected! its apparently it's a 14 level prc o.o

[eggynack]

Why not just go True Necromancer for the last 4.
Well, first cause he said core. Second, cause eugh. I mean, you're still only getting two levels of double-progression out of those four, and that's after wizard 3/cleric 3/mystic theurge 10. That means three levels of advancement for each class, which leaves you at 16/16. You'd be way better off just taking the hit on one side, and pushing one side up to 9th's.

[JeminiZero]

2.) Whats the best Wizard / Cleric combo in 3rd Edition?
An Archivist (maybe with Sacred Exorcist) comes close. Basically a Divine Wizard. Int based casting with access to the best Divine spells and *most* of the good Arcane spells. Roleplays the know-it-all archetype better than the Wizard even, since it can translate Knowledge checks into direct bonus to hit/damage for the whole party.

If not, look for some sort of early entry trick to get into Mystic Theurge earlier. Go with Wizard/Archivist to be Int SAD rather then Int/Wis MAD.