Bringing sorcerers more toward genuine spontaneity?

[lsfreak]

It's commonly held that psions actually fit sorcerer fluff a lot better than sorcerers can. However, I neither like the idea of completely replacing sorcerers with psions, nor do I particularly wish to undertake the grueling task of converting Vancian magic into a genuine spell point system (though I know there's at least one conversion of the Core spells in homebrew).

But is there a reasonable middle ground? I've been debating limiting sorcerers to a certain number of spell levels per day, as a midpoint between psionics and the normal Vancian sorcerer. I haven't been able to play in several years, however, and my sense of balance isn't outstanding to begin with. It seems like - barring some of the tricks that are rather horrendous already, mostly action economy abuse - it would make the sorcerer more flexible but not substantially affect them balance-wise. It gives them more nova power a la psions, which could be a concern, but also gives them better lasting power. And certainly fits the fluff of spontaneous caster better than a sorcerer generally does.

Is this a reasonable compromise? Would simply dissolving the normal spells/level/day into the constituent spell levels be good, or is it too much flexibility given that sorcerers usually stick with the most broadly-applicable spells in the first place? Any other glaring issues? And any problems unique to E6 that I've failed to consider?

[Slipperychicken]

nor do I particularly wish to undertake the grueling task of converting Vancian magic into a genuine spell point system (though I know there's at least one conversion of the Core spells in homebrew).

There's already a RAW variant rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm).

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

There's already a RAW variant rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm).

This is also more or less the rules that D&D Next sorcerers use.

[Maginomicon]

There's already a RAW variant rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm).
@OP If you read those rules and find them weird, I've written up a comprehensive Spell Points fix that unlike Ernir's system (which you'll probably hear about at some point no doubt), doesn't involve rewriting massive amounts of OGC content (and, by the by, simultaneously solves some of the most jarring balance issues inherent to D&D 3.5). PM me if you want to know more.

[Slipperychicken]

This is also more or less the rules that D&D Next sorcerers use.

Isn't Next only coming out in like 2015?

[AuraTwilight]

Er...no. 2014.

[Slipperychicken]

Er...no. 2014.

Guess that shows how closely I've been following it...

[TuggyNE]

It occurs to me that some sort of mechanism analogous to Erudites' Unique Powers Per Day might be interesting, especially if you let them automatically gain a considerably larger repertoire that can't be expanded. I guess that doesn't directly address the OP's ideas as much though.


@OP If you read those rules and find them weird, I've written up a comprehensive Spell Points fix that unlike Ernir's system (which you'll probably hear about at some point no doubt), doesn't involve rewriting massive amounts of OGC content (and, by the by, simultaneously solves some of the most jarring balance issues inherent to D&D 3.5).

What's wrong with using a massive amount of already-rewritten OGC content that simultaneously addresses some of the most jarring balance issues? :smallconfused:

[Ansem]

I find Psions better than Sorcerers because Psions can learn new powers by spending downtime + XP.
There really is no single way to get the Sorcerer list up since you specialize enough anyway, but it's still a nice option and fits fluff a lot more.

[Fax Celestis]

It's commonly held that psions actually fit sorcerer fluff a lot better than sorcerers can. However, I neither like the idea of completely replacing sorcerers with psions, nor do I particularly wish to undertake the grueling task of converting Vancian magic into a genuine spell point system (though I know there's at least one conversion of the Core spells in homebrew).

But is there a reasonable middle ground? I've been debating limiting sorcerers to a certain number of spell levels per day, as a midpoint between psionics and the normal Vancian sorcerer. I haven't been able to play in several years, however, and my sense of balance isn't outstanding to begin with. It seems like - barring some of the tricks that are rather horrendous already, mostly action economy abuse - it would make the sorcerer more flexible but not substantially affect them balance-wise. It gives them more nova power a la psions, which could be a concern, but also gives them better lasting power. And certainly fits the fluff of spontaneous caster better than a sorcerer generally does.

Is this a reasonable compromise? Would simply dissolving the normal spells/level/day into the constituent spell levels be good, or is it too much flexibility given that sorcerers usually stick with the most broadly-applicable spells in the first place? Any other glaring issues? And any problems unique to E6 that I've failed to consider?

Could you rob the Erudite's casting mechanism of unique powers per day? I mean, as long as you clarify how it works and make the number of unique powers per day a reasonable number (neither 11/day nor 11/level/day are reasonable, albeit for completely opposite reasons), you should be fine.

[Blackhawk748]

Unearthed Arcana has Spell points system that works fine. Oh your out of spells take a two hour nap and your at 2/3s your max

[lsfreak]

Spell points as-is from UA is pretty bad because it punishes the least useful options and rewards using the non-damaging, encounter-ending stuff more than is already the case. And once you remove that, provided it doesn't imbalance things, using spell levels/day seems better as spell points without augments seems needlessly complicated (KISS, after all - I'd think spell levels/day would be far more intuitive than the 1+2*level point cost for new players, for example). It's just a matter of, is it a decent solution or is it going to be obviously imbalanced one direction or the other?

I'd prefer not to use one of the other spell point rewrites just because there's such a thing as too many, too complex house rules. It is certainly my ideal, but not practical for me (for one, the players I might be DMing for already play in multiple other campaigns, and I would hardly blame them for refusing to learn a new set of rules, for something that already exists, just for a single campaign).

I've considered expanding the erudite method of spellcasting to other classes, with obvious tweaks, though what I was really considering it for was clerics. It does seem like it'd work especially well using spell levels as your casting resource, though.

[ericgrau]

No matter how you set up spell points either high level spells will be better than low level spells or low level spells will be better than high level spells. You need a way to force both. The current system does so quite strictly by give you spell slots per level.

What I presume you want is a way for the sorcerer to always be able to select any spell he has until he is totally out of magic. So we need to think of a way to do that yet while still encouraging the sorc to use all his spells rather than spamming either high or low level spells (since most systems tend to favor one or the other).

Metamagic is one way. It turns low level spells into high level ones. So give bonus metamagic feats.

Next you want a way to encourage the sorc to cast some low level between combat buffs. You want to leave points for high level spells yet not give him so many that he buff stacks 100 level 1-2 spells on the whole party. You could give a 2nd pool of spell points that may only be used between combat, perhaps enforced by making such spells have a 3 round casting time.

So there you go, 2 pools of spell points. It's similar to the spell/day system split by level, but instead switches it to a combat / non-combat split. And with only 2 pools instead of 2-10 pools. As for how to split them, I'd take an existing spell point system and go 2/3 to combat and 1/3 to non-combat. Spells known are not split between combat and non-combat btw.

[Maginomicon]

No matter how you set up spell points either high level spells will be better than low level spells or low level spells will be better than high level spells. You need a way to force both.My variant does this by making low-level spells extremely useful by their nature as low-level spells. The higher spell level you cast, the less cost-effective this property becomes. It does not force low-level spells to be better, but it does give them an intrinsic amount of utility just for being lower-level spells. i.e. If you've got the time in combat, taking pot shots or strafing runs with low-level spells is an optional but very effective strategy.

[ericgrau]

A recharge system does work too because it likewise leaves some points between combat. Just be careful that your characters can't spam 24 hour party mage armor, unseen servant, false life, greater magic weapon and so on for the whole party (well, except false life). Or worse the 10 min/levels too like 6 types of resist & protection from energy, spider climb and so on. Or it'll be like persist x 50.