Wizard VS Elder Evil

[Xar Zarath]

How would a Optimized level 20 Wizard face off against an Elder Evil?:smallbiggrin:

(Both Wizard and Elder Evil are PC controlled)

[Eldariel]

How would a Optimized level 20 Wizard face off against an Elder Evil?:smallbiggrin:

(Both Wizard and Elder Evil are PC controlled)

Depends greatly on the Elder Evil, and limitations on the Wizard.

[Alleran]

What optimisation level is the wizard working at?

[Silva Stormrage]

For any decently optimized wizard it will slaughter the elder evil. Assuming its one of the elder evils thats has stats and not one where the world explodes if the thing is summoned.

[Emperor Tippy]

However he wants. I mean I have a highly suboptimal character with only 9 levels of wizard that throws out 900 point fireballs like candy. Ones that ignore SR and punch through resistance and immunity. That wizard would obviously deal with Elder Evils by throwing fireballs at them until they cease to be an issue.

The best choice is probably and Ice Assassin assassination squad that is Wished directly to the Elder Evils location and proceeds to deliver a beat down while the wizard chills on his private demiplane or planet.

[Alleran]

...while the wizard chills on his private demiplane or planet.
Why the "or" there? Can't he have a private planet in his demiplane?

I would be intrigued to see the 900 point fireball Wizard 9.

[Emperor Tippy]

Why the "or" there? Can't he have a private planet in his demiplane?
Well yes but there are some benefits to being on the same plane. Although you can always just stick your head through an interplanar ring gate.


I would be intrigued to see the 900 point fireball Wizard 9.

It's using my old enhanced magic demiplane trick to load on all of the metamagic without having to spend any feats or suffer any level increases. Energy Admixture 4 times, maximized, and twinned. For 10 fireballs worth of maximum damage out of a single 3rd level slot and for no feat investment.

The non demiplane version is limited to a measly 360 points of damage per fireball, which fails the Great Wyrm Red test (you are only a good blaster if you can blast a Great Wyrm Red Dragon to death in a single attack that has an at least 80% chance of hitting and dealing the required amount of damage).

[molten_dragon]

Why the "or" there? Can't he have a private planet in his demiplane?

It would have to be a pretty small planet.

Or it would take over a hundred thousand years for the demiplane to get large enough to hold an earth-sized planet.

[Rubik]

It would have to be a pretty small planet.

Or it would take over a hundred thousand years for the demiplane to get large enough to hold an earth-sized planet.Flowing time demiplane where the time is 100,000 years to one round of "real" time. Populate the plane with plants and animals, then just sit outside of the demiplane for a couple of hours.

Also, I hope you're immune to energy damage. Tippy's looking for a dragon to incinerate.

[Sewercop]

It would have to be a pretty small planet.

Or it would take over a hundred thousand years for the demiplane to get large enough to hold an earth-sized planet.

From the genesis text:
Once the basic demiplane reaches its maximum size, the spellcaster can continue to cast this spell to enlarge the demiplane, adding another 180 feet of radius to the demiplane each time.


So only the first 180 feet takes time, the rest go as fast as you can toss out genesis.

Speaking of elder evils, did you ever get around to score the monk challenge Tippy?

[CyberThread]

http://gsngaming.com/uploads/monthly_10_2013/post-241-0-81297100-1382474775.jpg




Your a wizard.... why not?

[Emperor Tippy]

Speaking of elder evils, did you ever get around to score the monk challenge Tippy?
Some of them but I was going to offer prizes and that ran into some legal issues so the whole thing is (for me) frozen until those are solved.

[Rubik]

From the genesis text:
Once the basic demiplane reaches its maximum size, the spellcaster can continue to cast this spell to enlarge the demiplane, adding another 180 feet of radius to the demiplane each time.


So only the first 180 feet takes time, the rest go as fast as you can toss out genesis.This is where a trap of Genesis comes in handy. That, or just make sure the time trait is set to "full steam ahead" and let it grow naturally, and leave it long enough for it to be about the size of a "real" universe.


Some of them but I was going to offer prizes and that ran into some legal issues so the whole thing is (for me) frozen until those are solved.I wouldn't mind just seeing more A Magical Awakening, if I were to win. But I think you'd have to start a new thread for that over on SpaceBattles, since the mods have already complained about adding anything more to the old one.

[Sewercop]

Some of them but I was going to offer prizes and that ran into some legal issues so the whole thing is (for me) frozen until those are solved.

Well, that seems like different prizes then usual ones in build competitions.
It was a good read anyways that thread.

[Xar Zarath]

What optimisation level is the wizard working at?

I wanted the Wizard to be optimized to the max without getting a DMG or several being thrown at the PC:smallredface:

[Xar Zarath]

However he wants. I mean I have a highly suboptimal character with only 9 levels of wizard that throws out 900 point fireballs like candy. Ones that ignore SR and punch through resistance and immunity. That wizard would obviously deal with Elder Evils by throwing fireballs at them until they cease to be an issue.

The best choice is probably and Ice Assassin assassination squad that is Wished directly to the Elder Evils location and proceeds to deliver a beat down while the wizard chills on his private demiplane or planet.

Can you list down other methods that don't involve blasting the Elder Evil to tiny bits?:smallbiggrin:

[Slipperychicken]

I wanted the Wizard to be optimized to the max without getting a DMG or several being thrown at the PC:smallredface:

Dude, if you bring a level 9 wizard who can solo elder evils to the table, that's worthy of a phonebooking no matter how you do it. Unless you're at Tippy's table, in which case you're getting curbstomped by someone who can do it better than you.

[Aquillion]

I wanted the Wizard to be optimized to the max without getting a DMG or several being thrown at the PC:smallredface:It really depends on the elder evil (there are some monsters whose write up is literally just "if you are trying to beat this then you lose; give your DM your character sheet for mandatory incineration, no saving throw"), but an optimized Wizard 20 is going to be able to easily beat anything that's designed to be remotely beatable, by definition, and several things that aren't designed to be beatable but which didn't state the "cannot be beaten ever" in firm enough terms.

[Envyus]

Here's my challenge for this.

Using Core and the Spell Compendium and the Magic Item Compendium make the best wizard level 20 wizard you can with 760k gold. (The starting gold for 20th level character.)

I will then roll a die to randomly pick which elder evil the character would fight. Then we just have to decide if your wizard could beat that Elder Evil. Oh yes the fight with the Elder Evil will the final encounter with them in the book so a lot of them will have back up.

[Xar Zarath]

Here's my challenge for this.

Using Core and the Spell Compendium and the Magic Item Compendium make the best wizard level 20 wizard you can with 760k gold. (The starting gold for 20th level character.)

I will then roll a die to randomly pick which elder evil the character would fight. Then we just have to decide if your wizard could beat that Elder Evil.

Tippy should be in on this, since optimization is not my expertise:smallredface:

[Envyus]

Doing this will also make prep harder as you won't know which one you will fight until the character is made.

Also in order to use a d10 I am including one more creature among the Elder Evils who is considered one but is not in the book. This creature will remain a surprise for now.

But the roll will more or less go like this.

1. Mystery Creature
2. Atropus
3. Father Llymic
4. The Hulks of Zoretha
5. The Leviathan
6. Pandorym
7. Ragnorra
8. Sertrous
9. Kyuss
10. Zargon

[OldTrees1]

Try this:
25gpx20x40=20,000gp
8000gpx40=320,000gp
Total=340,000gp

1 Conjurer 5 Red Wizard 10 Archmage 5 (39 cl)
39 20HD Zombies created with polymorph any object, animated with animate dead, controlled via a Chained Extended Command Undead spell
Each holds a Spellblade tied to Orb of Force
Each has a command to redirect Orbs of Force towards the designated foe. (Triggers on their initiative as a free action)

1 Casting of Chained Orb of Force against yourself. It will chain to 39 of the 40 zombies which will redirect it as new Chained Orbs of Force towards the Elder Evil (secondary targets would be the other 39 zombies)

So that is 39 orbs for 10d6 damage each with each clump relying on a ranged touch attack (1d20+10[BAB]+?[20HD Zombie Dex])


Edit: Pandorym is still hard since it has a decent touch AC
Edit2: Ragnorra _might_ have 1000hp

[molten_dragon]

Flowing time demiplane where the time is 100,000 years to one round of "real" time. Populate the plane with plants and animals, then just sit outside of the demiplane for a couple of hours.

That actually brings up an interesting question. The genesis spell (and psionic power too) just says it grows at a rate of 1 foot per day. It doesn't specify whether that's a day in the demiplane or a day on the ethereal/astral plane, since it's fueling itself with stuff from one of those planes.

It would probably end up being a DM call, and I doubt any DM is going to let someone have a demiplane with that broken of a flowing time trait.


Also, I hope you're immune to energy damage. Tippy's looking for a dragon to incinerate.

Knowing Tippy, immunity to energy damage isn't likely to matter.

I've got some other tricks up my sleeve though.

[Envyus]

Try this:
25gpx20x40=20,000gp
8000gpx40=320,000gp
Total=340,000gp

1 Conjurer 5 Red Wizard 10 Archmage 5 (39 cl)
39 20HD Zombies created with polymorph any object, animated with animate dead, controlled via a Chained Extended Command Undead spell
Each holds a Spellblade tied to Orb of Force
Each has a command to redirect Orbs of Force towards the designated foe. (Triggers on their initiative as a free action)

1 Casting of Chained Orb of Force against yourself. It will chain to 39 of the 40 zombies which will redirect it as new Chained Orbs of Force towards the Elder Evil (secondary targets would be the other 39 zombies)

So that is 39 orbs for 10d6 damage each with each clump relying on a ranged touch attack (1d20+10[BAB]+?[20HD Zombie Dex])


Edit: Pandorym is still hard since it has a decent touch AC
Edit2: Ragnorra _might_ have 1000hp


Not sure how you got all those zombies but whatever. The Elder Evil you will face is.

Number 8 Sertrous.

Your opponents are the Aspect of Sertrous, Avamerin the Advanced elite planetar and 4 Golothoma Demons.

Well to be correct you would fight Avamerin first and once you killed him, the Aspect and the 4 Golothomas would pop up. Question would this waste your orbs.

[molten_dragon]

From the genesis text:
Once the basic demiplane reaches its maximum size, the spellcaster can continue to cast this spell to enlarge the demiplane, adding another 180 feet of radius to the demiplane each time.


So only the first 180 feet takes time, the rest go as fast as you can toss out genesis.

Even if you use that interpretation, rather than the more logical one that it continues growing at a rate of 1 foot per day up to a max of another 180 feet, it's still going to take a long-ass time since genesis has a casting time of a week.

[OldTrees1]

Zombies obtained by polymorphing pebbles into corpses and then into corpses.
Using Ettin (10HD, Dex 8) as an example corpse.

I was posting the orbs of force as an example/suggestion. I do not have a statblock on hand. So
Wizard
20d4 ~= 50hp
Initative: +0
Stats: Int 23, rest 10
AC: 10
Atk: +10
Saves: F+6, R+6, W+12

Zombies
20d12 ~= 130hp
Initative: -1
AC: 9
Atk: +9
Stats: Str 23, Dex 8, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 11
Saves: F+6, R+5, W+12

I assume Avamerin would win initiative. If the Red Wizard survives the onslaught, it will cast the Chained Orb (20% chance of missing Ava). If it hits then it would chain to 39 of the zombies. On their turn 39 of them would redirect them at Ava (25% of missing each). If any of those hit they will chain to the zombies.

If there is a hostile target the remaining zombies will target it. If there is no hostile target the zombies will target each other. (once each per round) Check this paragraph 1/round.

Interesting note: The Wizard only participates for 1 spell in this example.

[Envyus]

Zombies obtained by polymorphing pebbles into corpses and then into corpses.
Using Ettin (10HD, Dex 8) as an example corpse.

I was posting the orbs of force as an example/suggestion. I do not have a statblock on hand. So
Wizard
20d4 ~= 50hp
Initative: +0
Stats: Int 23, rest 10
AC: 10
Atk: +10
Saves: F+6, R+6, W+12

Zombies
20d12 ~= 130hp
Initative: -1
AC: 9
Atk: +9
Stats: Str 23, Dex 8, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 11
Saves: F+6, R+5, W+12

I assume Avamerin would win initiative. If the Red Wizard survives the onslaught, it will cast the Chained Orb (20% chance of missing Ava). If it hits then it would chain to 39 of the zombies. On their turn 39 of them would redirect them at Ava (25% of missing each). If any of those hit they will chain to the zombies.

If there is a hostile target the remaining zombies will target it. If there is no hostile target the zombies will target each other. (once each)

Interesting note: The Wizard only participates for 1 spell in this example.

Ok I did some rolls to see what would happen.

Ave goes first as you correctly guessed. Uses Quicked Sound Burst. You rolled a 12 failing the save then he attacks you. You don't go next turn due to the stun then he kills you with a full attack.

If you do go first or make the save then I have little doubt you would kill him. However after that Sertorus and his Demons would pop up and kill you.

[OldTrees1]

Ok I did some rolls to see what would happen.

Ave goes first as you correctly guessed. Uses Quicked Sound Burst. You rolled a 12 failing the save then he attacks you. You don't go next turn due to the stun then he kills you with a full attack.

If you do go first or make the save then I have little doubt you would kill him. However after that Sertorus and his Demons would pop up and kill you.

Stun is nasty. However what happens after I die in the saved vs stun possibility?

[Envyus]

Stun is nasty. However what happens after I die in the saved vs stun possibility?

Well with you dead the Zombies would mindlessly attack any living creature. Sertorus and his Golothomas would then rip the Zombies apart. As they are just no match for them.

[OldTrees1]

Well with you dead the Zombies would mindlessly attack any living creature. Sertorus and his Golothomas would then rip the Zombies apart. As they are just no match for them.

I thought mindless minions followed orders for the duration of the control effect (39 days). So wouldn't they redirect chained orbs of force every turn as a free action?

[cakellene]

I thought mindless minions followed orders for the duration of the control effect (39 days). So wouldn't they redirect chained orbs of force every turn as a free action?

I think he was saying you were dead before you cast those orbs.

[Urpriest]

Dude, if you bring a level 9 wizard who can solo elder evils to the table, that's worthy of a phonebooking no matter how you do it. Unless you're at Tippy's table, in which case you're getting curbstomped by someone who can do it better than you.

Keep in mind, reading between the lines it sounds like it's Factotum 11/Wizard 9, not just Wizard 9. Can't think of a metamagic that evades SR for instance.

[Envyus]

I have always ruled myself that Command, Charm and Dominate spells are ended by the casters death. Even if it's not the case I think you have to be alive to reactivate the chain anyway as don't you have to cast in on your self first to get all of them to do the redirect thing.

And technically you can't kill Ave. He has regen that is only over come by evil so he would survive all of your attacks (But would be really far in the negatives so honestly he might as well be dead)

[OldTrees1]

I think he was saying you were dead before you cast those orbs.

Only 1 Orb would the wizard desire to cast. So if I had saved vs Stun, then the zombies are self sufficient as far as orbs go.

[Envyus]

Only 1 Orb would the wizard desire to cast. So if I had saved vs Stun, then the zombies are self sufficient as far as orbs go.

Ahh then you could win if zombies kept fallowing your command after your death. I going to try and find out the answer to that question.

Also I will repost the rules for my challenge on the new page.

Using Core, the Spell Compendium and the Magic Item Compendium make the best wizard level 20 wizard you can with 760k gold.

Once you are ready I will roll a d10 to decide which Elder Evil the character will fight.

1. Mystery Creature
2. Atropus
3. Father Llymic
4. The Hulks of Zoretha
5. The Leviathan
6. Pandorym
7. Ragnorra
8. Sertrous
9. Kyuss
10. Zargon

Excluding the Mystery Creature all fights with the evils will be based on the final encounter on their section of the elder evils book.

If someone wishes to alter their build then a new elder evil will be rolled for them.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Even if you use that interpretation, rather than the more logical one that it continues growing at a rate of 1 foot per day up to a max of another 180 feet, it's still going to take a long-ass time since genesis has a casting time of a week.

There's tons of ways to speed up casting. Ex: spellguard of silverymoon, uncanny forethought, anima mage. There's more but I'm drawing a blank offhand.

[Aracor]

The main problem with the redirect thing is simple. An orb spell cannot be chained, because it has no target.

[OldTrees1]

The main problem with the redirect thing is simple. An orb spell cannot be chained, because it has no target.


You create a globe of force 3 inches across, which streaks from your palm toward your target. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit the target. The orb deals a total of 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 10d6).

I am confused.

[Seer_of_Heart]

My entry is a wizard who lives on a demiplane with the flowing time trait 10^10^10^10^10 to 1 round on the material plane. Use a staff of gate to repeatedly open a gate and shoot hail of stone at the elder evils until they die. :smallamused: Just buff with limited wish (also from a staff) to hit every hail. If you run low on staff charges just gate a solar to wish up a new staff.

edit: you can't shapechange wish in core. changed to solar gating.

[Karnith]

I am confused.
The argument is that Chain Spell only modifies targeted spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#aimingASpell), which rays and orbs, as effect spells, are not.

It was likely the designer intent to prohibit ray and orb spells from being eligible to be Chained (see e.g. the FAQ p. 39 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a)), but as-written it's just confusing.

[OldTrees1]

The argument is that Chain Spell requires a (spell) target (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#aimingASpell), which rays and orbs, as effect spells, don't have.

Oh. Well then it would need a different spell. Force Orb(unapproachable east) has a single target option for 10d6 force Fort halves if it hits and 20 force Ref halves if it misses.

If that doesn't work then I am stumped for a good single target damage spell.

[Envyus]

Well if that how it works your entire strat is finished. Sorry but the Elder Evil and minions crush you.

[Rubik]

Here's my entry. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863) Just exchange one of the monk levels for a wizard level. (He literally loses nothing and gains a level in wizard instead of his 17th monk level. Being a warforged, he's already immortal, and TotS&M is basically Comprehend Languages, which he can prepare each day, if he wants.)

[Envyus]

Here's my entry. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863) Just exchange one of the monk levels for a wizard level. (He literally loses nothing and gains a level in wizard instead of his 17th monk level. Being a warforged, he's already immortal, and TotS&M is basically Comprehend Languages, which he can prepare each day, if he wants.)

Ok let me roll your opponent.

2 aka Atropus.

Your opponents are 6 Angels of Decay then the Aspect of Atropus after 1d6 rounds of fighting the Angels.

Question is all the stuff in the character other then his Warforgedness core, Spell compendium or Magic item compendium.

[Rubik]

Ok let me roll your opponent.

2 aka Atropus.

Your opponents are 6 Angels of Decay then the Aspect of Atropus after 1d6 rounds of fighting the Angels.He's constantly invisible, and anyone with See Invisibility or True Seeing (ie, Atropus) can only see fog, while he can see just fine. He also has Darkstalker to overcome Atropus's blindsight and a Hide bonus of +34, vs Atropus's measly Spot score of +7 and the angels' +29 (but they can't see him due to his being invisible anyway, as he gets an additional +20 bonus against them). I think he'll steamroll them. He throws himself at the angels and then atropus, bursting through them repeatedly until they're dead. He can kill each angel in a single hit, and Atropus in 3 hits, and he hits all of them on an incorporeal ranged touch attack (minus Dex). Likewise, none of them can get close enough to touch him, since he's usually 100+ feet away (using his last attack or two to move away from them), and if something really terrible happens, he can always hide 5' beneath the surface of the ground, since he's incorporeal.

For his stay on Atropus, he's taken the form of a Large animated object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm) when he's not refreshing his Greater Invisibility via becoming a phantom fungus, since he has that nifty psychoactive skin of proteus. He's no longer a living creature (and is a nonliving construct instead), and thus is immune to all of the special attacks of all the undead in the fight, except for Atropus's Call Meteor Shower and Meteor Swarm, but his 89 hardness basically turns those (and all the physical attacks) into no damage hits.

80' range increment (x5 increments)
Ghost Touch
Metalline
Seeking
30' reach (Long Reach feat + Large size)
Overcomes DR/Magic and Good and Adamantine and Epic (+5 enhancement +2 bane)

Bonus and Penalties to Hit
+5 to hit (enhancement bonus)
+3 to hit (Str + Brutal Throw feat)
+4 to hit (Animal Devotion)
+4-+5 to hit (Knowledge Devotion at +33 bonus to Kn: Religion -- 34-35 is a +4 to hit, and 36+ is +5)
+2 to hit (bane: undead weapon enhancement)
+1 to hit (haste)
+7 to hit (Law Devotion)
+2 to hit (invisibility)
-2 penalty to hit (Rapid Shot)
-2 penalty to hit (TWF)

+1 attack (Rapid Shot)
+1 attack (TWF)
+1 attack at -5 (Improved TWF)
+1 attack at -10 (Greater TWF)
+1 attack (Haste)+13/+13/+13/+8/+3 BAB and Flurry of Blows
+24 from bonuses
+5 attacks

Equals: +37/+37/+37/+37/+37/+37/+32/+32/+27/+27
Or with a decent Knowledge Devotion roll (ie, anything above a 2 on the die) An extra +1 to all of those.

Atropus's regular AC (minus Dex): 42. Incorporeal Touch AC (minus Dex): 6.
Angels' regular AC: 28. Incorporeal Touch AC (minus Dex): 13.

x4 damage due to Manyfang, included in the below
12d8 bludgeoning damage (unarmed strike) (avg: 54)
+12 weapon damage (16 Str)
+20 weapon damage (enhancement bonus)
+4d8 Slam damage (Beast Strike feat) (avg: 18)
+16-+20 weapon damage (Knowledge Devotion at +33 Kn: Religion -- 34-35 is a +4 to damage (x4), 36+ is +5 (also x4))
+20 weapon damage (collision)
+16 weapon damage (Animal Devotion feat)
+4d6 acid damage (energy assault crystal) (avg 14)
+4d6 cold damage (energy assault crystal) (avg 14)
+4d6 fire damage (energy assault crystal) (avg 14)
+4d6 electricity damage (energy assault crystal) (avg 14)
+4d6 sonic damage (energy assault crystal) (avg 14)
+8d6 untyped damage (vicious weapon enhancement) (avg 28)
+4d6 holy damage (holy strike ACF) (avg 14)
+4d6 untyped damage (lesser truedeath crystal vs undead) (avg 14)
+8d6+8 holy damage (sacred weapon enhancement) (avg 36)
+8d6+8 untyped damage (bane: undead weapon enhancement) (avg 14)
+4d8 bludgeoning damage (Hammer power) (avg 18)
+4d6 piercing damage (piercer cloak) (avg 14)
+4d6 weapon damage (Punishing Stance) (avg 14)

Vs Angels of Decay
+8d6+8 untyped (axiomatic weapon enhancement) (avg 36)Average damage against Atropus: 378 per hit (vs 858 hp)
Average damage against angels: 414 per hit (vs 198 hp)

Add +4 to the damage if the Knowledge Devotion roll is anything above a 2 on the die.


Question is all the stuff in the character other then his Warforgedness core, Spell compendium or Magic item compendium.Uh... What?

[Envyus]

Uh... What?

One of the rules I gave was that the character had to be made using Core and only the Magic Item and Spell Compendimus were viable supplements. So most of your build is not viable for my challenge.

[Rubik]

One of the rules I gave was that the character had to be made using Core and only the Magic Item and Spell Compendimus were viable supplements. So most of your build is not viable for my challenge.It's entirely viable according to the first post.

[Envyus]

It's entirely viable according to the first post.

Oh I thought you were responding to my challenge which was posted later as a seprate and much harder challenge.

[Rubik]

Oh I thought you were responding to my challenge which was posted later as a seprate and much harder challenge.Think of it this way: I beat it with a monk. That's a weak T5, rather than a T1. A whole 4 tiers lower, and it's basically an auto-win.

[edit] And as for a Core-only wizard? Shapechange into an iron golem and cast Resist Energy for fire and Greater Invisibility. Enjoy winning.

[Envyus]

Think of it this way: I beat it with a monk. That's a weak T5, rather than a T1. A whole 4 tiers lower, and it's basically an auto-win.

[edit] And as for a Core-only wizard? Shapechange into an iron golem and cast Resist Energy for fire. Enjoy winning.

Um I think doing that would be bad for the wizard.

Anyway this Iron Golem would be fighting Father Llymic. Sadly it would Freeze and die as it won`t beat him in a boxing match.

[Rubik]

Um I think doing that would be bad for the wizard.

Anyway this Iron Golem would be fighting Father Llymic. Sadly it would Freeze and die as it won`t beat him in a boxing match.It's a wizard with Shapechange against Atropus. If he's against Llymic, Shapechange into something else. Shapechange is good like that.

[Envyus]

It's a wizard with Shapechange against Atropus. If he's against Llymic, Shapechange into something else. Shapechange is good like that.

Well the way my challenge works is that the Elder being faced is random and any changes to the build mean the EE fought is changed.

[OldTrees1]

Well the way my challenge works is that the Elder being faced is random and any changes to the build mean the EE fought is changed.

Since Shapechange is cast near the battle, I assume the assumed form can change based on the Elder Evil. However this does not let Rubik off the hook to name a valid form to deal with Father.

[Envyus]

I think I will just create my own thread for this soon with some edits to the rules.

[Rubik]

Well the way my challenge works is that the Elder being faced is random and any changes to the build mean the EE fought is changed.Changing shape is a free action each round. Unless the Elder Evil also changes as a free action each round, that's a non-issue, since you can just change your shape and your tactics to suit. If you're going to change the challenge every time I come up with a solution just to null and void it, I'm calling shenanigans.

Also, my monk was built to take down EVERY Elder Evil, so feel free to send that up against Llymic.

[Envyus]

Changing shape is a free action each round. Unless the Elder Evil also changes as a free action each round, that's a non-issue, since you can just change your shape and your tactics to suit. If you're going to change the challenge every time I come up with a solution just to null and void it, I'm calling shenanigans.

Also, my monk was built to take down EVERY Elder Evil, so feel free to send that up against Llymic.

No issue with the shape change thing. The Monk however is not allowed by my rules however.

You just need to pick a shape to beat Llymic.

[Rubik]

No issue with the shape change thing. The Monk however is not allowed by my rules however.

You just need to pick a shape to beat Llymic.A 12-headed cryohydra zombie looks like just what the wizard ordered.

[OldTrees1]

If you're going to change the challenge every time I come up with a solution just to null and void it, I'm calling shenanigans.


It wasn't like that. The Eldar Evil was rerolled whenever the PC build was altered (going from the monk to the shapechange Wizard)

[Envyus]

A 12-headed cryohydra zombie looks like just what the wizard ordered.

While most of Llymic spell likes and abilities are useless against the Hydra. Other then his Greater Dispel magic which can turn the shape change off leaving the vulnerable wizard who is going to rank up a ton of quasi negative levels after that happens.

Even if that does not happen Llymic wins in a boxing match with the hydra due to having perfect fly and longer reach then the Hydra.

[Rubik]

While most of Llymic spell likes and abilities are useless against the Hydra. Other then his Greater Dispel magic which can turn the shape change off leaving the vulnerable wizard who is going to rank up a ton of quasi negative levels after that happens.

Even if that does not happen Llymic wins in a boxing match with the hydra due to having perfect fly and longer reach then the Hydra.The Dispel Magic isn't a guarantee (it's capped at +24, and any 20th level wizard worth his salt is rocking an orange ioun stone and a bead of karma for a caster level of 25), and Shapechange is one of the few 9ths in Core worthwhile on a day of adventuring, so he'd have more than one prepped. And for every AoO Llymic gets against the Overland Flight'd wizard, the wizard gets a 12-bite charge attack. I'm pretty sure the wizard wins in a game of fisticuffs (or bite-icuffs, as the case may be).

[Envyus]

The Dispel Magic isn't a guarantee (it's capped at +24, and any 20th level wizard worth his salt is rocking an orange ioun stone and a bead of karma for a caster level of 25), and Shapechange is one of the few 9ths in Core worthwhile on a day of adventuring, so he'd have more than one prepped. And for every AoO Llymic gets against the Overland Flight'd wizard, the wizard gets a 12-bite charge attack. I'm pretty sure the wizard wins in a game of fisticuffs (or bite-icuffs, as the case may be).

However the Hydra has less of a chance of hitting while Llymic is going to hit almost all the time and with his improved chance to hit and deal more damage.

[Eldan]

The wizard can just have more buffs, though. Mirror Image and Blur are trivial, as an example.

[Urpriest]

However the Hydra has less of a chance of hitting while Llymic is going to hit almost all the time and with his improved chance to hit and deal more damage.

Eh, as long as the Wizard has a swift he can drop Wraithstrikes.

[Rubik]

If all else fails, or if he gets bored, he can always Gate in a celestial/pseudonatural hecatoncheires using his emergency Gate and Teleport out.

[JustIgnoreMe]

I'm sure there was a thread where someone was optimising monks to take down all the elder evils in the book in page order. I can't remember who it was though, or what the thread was called.

[Rubik]

I'm sure there was a thread where someone was optimising monks to take down all the elder evils in the book in page order. I can't remember who it was though, or what the thread was called.That was Emperor Tippy's thread I linked to earlier here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=285801). Or at least the monk I'd linked to in that thread. The contest remains unresolved until Tippy can get some "legal issues" regarding the prize worked out, whatever those might be.

[JustIgnoreMe]

Ah, thank you. I must have skipped over that post.

[Tvtyrant]

Rods from God style:


Invisible spell feat.
Permanent invisible Wall of Force in the sky.
Place a pyramid of permanent invisible Walls of Iron on the wall of force.
Make this pyramid hold several hundred tons of iron.
lure enemy below the Walls of Iron.
scroll of disintigrate the wall of force, dealing 20d6+1d6/200 pounds per wall of iron to anything below it that fails their reflex save.

If you drop enough of them, the enemy will die.

[Pickford]

Emperor_Tippy:

It's using my old enhanced magic demiplane trick to load on all of the metamagic without having to spend any feats or suffer any level increases. Energy Admixture 4 times, maximized, and twinned. For 10 fireballs worth of maximum damage out of a single 3rd level slot and for no feat investment.

I assume you're interpreting the text in Genesis where it says you can choose the environment as also meaning choosing planar traits.

But that is only useful if the Elder Evil decides to show up on your demiplane:


Particular spells and spell-like abilities are easier to use or more powerful in effect on planes with this trait than they are on the Material Plane.

Natives of a plane with the enhanced magic trait are aware of which spells and spell-like abilities are enhanced, but planar travelers may have to discover this on their own.

If a spell is enhanced, certain metamagic feats can be applied to it without changing the spell slot required or the casting time. Spellcasters on the plane are considered to have that feat or feats for the purpose of applying them to that spell. Spellcasters native to the plane must gain the feat or feats normally if they want to use them on other planes as well.

Bolded for emphasis, you can add the metamagic when casting the spell while on planes with this trait. It doesn't extend off them according to the text as written. All the examples that are given, plane by plane, elaborate on this.


Seer_of_Heart:

My entry is a wizard who lives on a demiplane with the flowing time trait 10^10^10^10^10 to 1 round on the material plane. Use a staff of gate to repeatedly open a gate and shoot hail of stone at the elder evils until they die.

Holding open a Gate requires concentration. You can't cast any other spells, therefore you can't hail of stone through a Gate yourself, you'd need to hire a lackey to do that. (Or an Ice Assassin, if you're so inclined to that kind of thing, but frankly hiring someone is less of a rube goldberg machine).

[Emperor Tippy]

Emperor_Tippy:


I assume you're interpreting the text in Genesis where it says you can choose the environment as also meaning choosing planar traits.

But that is only useful if the Elder Evil decides to show up on your demiplane:



Bolded for emphasis, you can add the metamagic when casting the spell while on planes with this trait. It doesn't extend off them according to the text as written. All the examples that are given, plane by plane, elaborate on this.
...
except for the slight, tiny, little fact that said trick involves carrying the plane around with you so that you are always treated as being on said plane.

For double plus super duper fun you do it with a Necropolitan and Major Positive Dominant on the demiplane so that you are running around with virtually limitless health with no real downside for you.

[Pickford]

...
except for the slight, tiny, little fact that said trick involves carrying the plane around with you so that you are always treated as being on said plane.

For double plus super duper fun you do it with a Necropolitan and Major Positive Dominant on the demiplane so that you are running around with virtually limitless health with no real downside for you.

How do you carry the plane around with you? If it was made by genesis it's coterminous with the ethereal plane, so you can't carry it. Nor would you be on it, so the magic can't happen.

[Slipperychicken]

How do you carry the plane around with you? If it was made by genesis it's coterminous with the ethereal plane, so you can't carry it. Nor would you be on it, so the magic can't happen.

I believe this is accomplished by abusing Acorn of Far Travel (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a) so that you're treated as being inside that plane.

While you hold it, you're treated as if you're under the tree's canopy (the intended use is for Forest rangers to get their favored terrain benefit). Keep that tree in the desired plane, and then the canopy is inside the plane, so you're treated as inside that plane.

[Emperor Tippy]

I believe this is accomplished by abusing Acorn of Far Travel (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a) so that you're treated as being inside that plane.

While you hold it, you're treated as if you're under the tree's canopy (the intended use is for Forest rangers to get their favored terrain benefit). Keep that tree in the desired plane, and then the canopy is inside the plane, so you're treated as inside that plane.

No, I refuse to use things that I don't believe actually work.

Mastery of Shaping Planar Bubble to cover your single 5 foot square on a fine Animated Object. Cast it twice initially to make it an Occular Spell and then Persistent and Extended for free and for 48 hours duration.

[Pickford]

No, I refuse to use things that I don't believe actually work.

Mastery of Shaping Planar Bubble to cover your single 5 foot square on a fine Animated Object. Cast it twice initially to make it an Occular Spell and then Persistent and Extended for free and for 48 hours duration.

I don't get it.

Mastery of shaping just lets you exclude areas from a spell area (how is that helpful here?)

And planar bubble requires the touched creature to be native to the plane. Nothing is native to a demiplane. So?

[OldTrees1]

I don't get it.

Mastery of shaping just lets you exclude areas from a spell area (how is that helpful here?)

And planar bubble requires the touched creature to be native to the plane. Nothing is native to a demiplane. So?

1) Make the demiplace contain material (like ground)
2) Take a fine amount of that material
3) Cast Animate Object on that material
Result: A native of the demiplane

[Slipperychicken]

I don't get it.

Mastery of shaping just lets you exclude areas from a spell area (how is that helpful here?)

And planar bubble requires the touched creature to be native to the plane. Nothing is native to a demiplane. So?

[let's see if I'm right this time :smalltongue:]

I think that he creates and animates the Animated Object on the demiplane, so that it's native, and Animated Objects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm) are creatures.

Excluding areas from the spell is helpful because it means that only the caster's square will be affected, rather than the entire bubble (so that the spell doesn't impact enemies).

[Emperor Tippy]

I don't get it.

Mastery of shaping just lets you exclude areas from a spell area (how is that helpful here?)
You exclude all but a single square. Thus you are the only one to benefit (well you, your fine animated object, and any other creatures that manage to cram themselves into your single 5 foot square.


And planar bubble requires the touched creature to be native to the plane. Nothing is native to a demiplane. So?
What OldTrees and SlipperyChicken said, you make the Animated Object on the plane and out of planar material so that it is unquestionably native to said plane.

[Pickford]

[let's see if I'm right this time :smalltongue:]

I think that he creates and animates the Animated Object on the demiplane, so that it's native, and Animated Objects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm) are creatures.

Excluding areas from the spell is helpful because it means that only the caster's square will be affected, rather than the entire bubble (so that the spell doesn't impact enemies).

That doesn't work because the definition of native isn't applicable:


A subtype applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype's name).
Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.

An animated object is incapable of fulfilling any of those requirements.

edit: nm, it appears the spell is using it colloquially.

double edit: It's unclear that animated objects can have a native plane, as they aren't living creatures.

triple edit: A review of this page: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm

reveals that many indicate native to plane 'x' status, which constructs lack. Therefore, the animated object cannot be native.

[Envyus]

Rods from God style:


Invisible spell feat.
Permanent invisible Wall of Force in the sky.
Place a pyramid of permanent invisible Walls of Iron on the wall of force.
Make this pyramid hold several hundred tons of iron.
lure enemy below the Walls of Iron.
scroll of disintigrate the wall of force, dealing 20d6+1d6/200 pounds per wall of iron to anything below it that fails their reflex save.

If you drop enough of them, the enemy will die.

For my challange this would not work as you are fighting the Evil on their own turf so you would not get a chance to set this up.

[eggynack]

That doesn't work because the definition of native isn't applicable:



An animated object is incapable of fulfilling any of those requirements.

edit: nm, it appears the spell is using it colloquially.

double edit: It's unclear that animated objects can have a native plane, as they aren't living creatures.

triple edit: A review of this page: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm

reveals that many indicate native to plane 'x' status, which constructs lack. Therefore, the animated object cannot be native.
So, if I'm getting this straight, you made an error, recognized that error, and then forgot about the error that started it all. Nothing in planar bubble requires the creature in question to have the native subtype. In fact, the native subtype would be incompatible with the spell, as the subtype is attached only to those native to the material plane, while planar bubble explicitly mentions creatures native to the plane of shadow. This animated object need not have any of the qualities required for the native subtype. They just need to have found their genesis in the plane in question, and that is true of this animated object. There is no requirement within the spell that necessitates the creature to be living, and that restriction is common enough that I'd figure they would have it. I can't see what the creature being alive or not has to do with anything.

[Pickford]

So, if I'm getting this straight, you made an error, recognized that error, and then forgot about the error that started it all. Nothing in planar bubble requires the creature in question to have the native subtype. In fact, the native subtype would be incompatible with the spell, as the subtype is attached only to those native to the material plane, while planar bubble explicitly mentions creatures native to the plane of shadow. This animated object need not have any of the qualities required for the native subtype. They just need to have found their genesis in the plane in question, and that is true of this animated object. There is no requirement within the spell that necessitates the creature to be living, and that restriction is common enough that I'd figure they would have it. I can't see what the creature being alive or not has to do with anything.

No, you got that wrong. For planar bubble to work, a creature has to be native to a plane. Various types are declared in that link as being native to certain planes. The Construct type is not native to any plane, therefore it can't be affected by planar bubble. Clear?

[ben-zayb]

No, you got that wrong. For planar bubble to work, a creature has to be native to a plane. Various types are declared in that link as being native to certain planes. The Construct type is not native to any plane, therefore it can't be affected by planar bubble. Clear?So are every other non-Outsider types, if we go by your "logic". Is this what you are implying?

Actually, to be specific, only the alignment subtypes are explicitly defined to be native to particular planes, if we go by your "logic".

[eggynack]

No, you got that wrong. For planar bubble to work, a creature has to be native to a plane. Various types are declared in that link as being native to certain planes. The Construct type is not native to any plane, therefore it can't be affected by planar bubble. Clear?
Not really. A creature doesn't have to be native to be listed in that page to be native to a plane. Just because being native has an extra effect on outsiders, represented in their subtype, that doesn't mean that other creatures can't also be native to a plane. Your logic is rather illogical.

[Pickford]

So are every other non-Outsider types, if we go by your "logic". Is this what you are implying?

Actually, to be specific, only the alignment subtypes are explicitly defined to be native to particular planes, if we go by your "logic".

If you can't provide another source that indicates nativeness, then my "logic" as you put it is the only correct course of action. :smallamused:

[eggynack]

If you can't provide another source that indicates nativeness, then my "logic" as you put it is the only correct course of action. :smallamused:
Being native to a location just means that you come from that location, which is a fact implied several times throughout the very page you posted. Said page provides no indication that nativeness is a trait only held by those who gain a subtype as a result of that nativeness. In fact, if you will note the extraplanar subtype, that entry constructs no limitations around the quality of nativeness. So, there ya go. A source that indicates nativeness, and includes animated objects, as animated objects are a subset of "any creature." If this is the ridiculous standard you are using, it has been satisfied.

[ben-zayb]

If you can't provide another source that indicates nativeness, then my "logic" as you put it is the only correct course of action. :smallamused:And so the poor Rilmani get shafted:smallsigh:

On topic, I think it's pretty much agreed on that a sufficiently intelligent Wizard can easily beat a surmountable Elder Evil. And yeah, that thread Tippy made a long time ago even had a Monk beat all of them. (I can only imagine how happy Pickford must have felt realizing the possibility of that. :smalltongue:)

[eggynack]

Actually, come to think of it, for an easily accessible example of a broader use of the term "native", how about the ever-relevant planar bubble? It seems that planar bubble makes no mention of creature type in its definition of native.


On topic, I think it's pretty much agreed on that a sufficiently intelligent Wizard can easily beat a surmountable Elder Evil. And yeah, that thread Tippy made a long time ago even had a Monk beat all of them. (I can only imagine how happy Pickford must have felt realizing the possibility of that. :smalltongue:)
Quite. This challenge is very much not one.

[Emperor Tippy]

Hmm, the difficult challenge: Kill all of the Elder Evils using an ECL 20 build with at least 17 levels of Soul Knife in it.

Good luck with that one as I have absolute not even the most remote interest in figuring out how to actually go about doing that.

[Norin]

Hmm, the difficult challenge: Kill all of the Elder Evils using an ECL 20 build with at least 17 levels of Soul Knife in it.

Good luck with that one as I have absolute not even the most remote interest in figuring out how to actually go about doing that.

Phaerimm Hatchling soulknife 17? Wut? :smallbiggrin:

[ben-zayb]

Hmm, the difficult challenge: Kill all of the Elder Evils using an ECL 20 build with at least 17 levels of Soul Knife in it.

Good luck with that one as I have absolute not even the most remote interest in figuring out how to actually go about doing that.

Hey, some of my friends are 20th-level Soul Knifes!

Pun-Pun aside, I was under the impression that a sufficiently WBLd person can do what some of your Monk Challenge Submissions did. Or how about those who abuse Magical Training?

[Threadnaught]

No, you got that wrong. For planar bubble to work, a creature has to be native to a plane. Various types are declared in that link as being native to certain planes. The Construct type is not native to any plane, therefore it can't be affected by planar bubble. Clear?

Inevitables are native to the Lawful aligned plane of Mechanus.

They're Constructs, therefore Constructs are allowed to be native to the plane they're created on.


Or your reading of the rules is correct and the information about Inevitables and Mechanus in the Monster Manuals, MotP and Fiend Folio is wrong. There are two types of Golem in the Fiend Folio, one native to Hell, the other to the Abyss. Also in the Fiend Folio are the Quarut and Varakhut, two additional Inevitables.


If you can't provide another source that indicates nativeness, then my "logic" as you put it is the only correct course of action. :smallamused:

This looks exactly like you're saying.
"La la la I'm ignoring that proof so therefore you don't have any. If you don't have any proof your claim is invalid. Nya!"


that thread Tippy made a long time ago even had a Monk beat all of them. (I can only imagine how happy Pickford must have felt realizing the possibility of that. :smalltongue:)

Yeah, Monks soloing every Elder Evil. :smallcool:

[Aquillion]

No, you got that wrong. For planar bubble to work, a creature has to be native to a plane. Various types are declared in that link as being native to certain planes. The Construct type is not native to any plane, therefore it can't be affected by planar bubble. Clear?
No, that's not true. From the SRD:


Extraplanar Subtype

A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow.Any creature that is not labelled as Extraplanar is native to the material plane, including constructs.

(Similarly, by the implication of the Extraplanar subtype's definition -- every creature, without exception, is native to some plane. Either you have the Extraplanar subtype, which you can only get when you are a creature "on a plane other than its native plane", or you don't, in which case you are automatically considered native to the Material Plane. It is not possible to lack a native plane. You seem to have gotten confused by the 'native' subtype, which is a subtype for Outsiders -- only -- to specify that they are considered natives of the Material plane despite being Outsiders, which are usually Extraplanar. That's not the only way you can be native to the Material plane; anything that lacks an Extraplanar subtype is also considered native to the Material plane.)

[Nightraiderx]

Hmm, the difficult challenge: Kill all of the Elder Evils using an ECL 20 build with at least 17 levels of Soul Knife in it.

Good luck with that one as I have absolute not even the most remote interest in figuring out how to actually go about doing that.

I suck at building wizards anyways, the soulknife seems way easier to create for my limited martial mind. I will probably die a horrible death but it will be an amusing death.

Edit: I do hope I am allowed to use Races of Eberron for this? Kalastar are the only ones i can think of that have the best chance of even surviving.

[Gemini476]

Do also note that a Balor (for instance) is only Extraplanar if it is not currently in the Nine Hells.

That Gate can only target extraplanar critters (who therefore must be outside their native plane) is one of those dysfunctional oversights.

[Threadnaught]

Do also note that a Balor (for instance) is only Extraplanar if it is not currently in the Nine Hells.

Actually, a Balor in the Nine Hells would be Extraplanar as they are native to the Infinite Layers of the Abyss.
You're probably thinking of Pit Fiends.

[Rubik]

On topic, I think it's pretty much agreed on that a sufficiently intelligent Wizard can easily beat a surmountable Elder Evil. And yeah, that thread Tippy made a long time ago even had a Monk beat all of them. (I can only imagine how happy Pickford must have felt realizing the possibility of that. :smalltongue:)But I never used partially charged wands...


Hmm, the difficult challenge: Kill all of the Elder Evils using an ECL 20 build with at least 17 levels of Soul Knife in it.

Good luck with that one as I have absolute not even the most remote interest in figuring out how to actually go about doing that.Actually, replacing all 17 levels of monk with soulknife and 2 of the remaining 3 with monk still allows for the same shenanigans that I pulled off in your Elder Evils thread -- it's just that the flurry of blows isn't quite as extensive.

Is there some way to apply your mind blade bonuses to your unarmed strikes? If so, there you go. I suppose you could apply them to mind blade claws and use Bestial Strike to apply them to your unarmed strikes.

[edit] Wait. There's a mind blade gauntlet weapon of legacy. Gauntlets count as unarmed strikes, so just apply your mind blade bonuses to that and use that for your flurrying.

[double-edit] Actually, taking one of those feats in CPsi that grants manifesting would give you the ability to use Tashalatora to stack monk and soulknife. Whee!

[Pickford]

No, that's not true. From the SRD:

Any creature that is not labelled as Extraplanar is native to the material plane, including constructs.

Ah, I hadn't seen that.


(Similarly, by the implication of the Extraplanar subtype's definition -- every creature, without exception, is native to some plane. Either you have the Extraplanar subtype, which you can only get when you are a creature "on a plane other than its native plane", or you don't, in which case you are automatically considered native to the Material Plane. It is not possible to lack a native plane. You seem to have gotten confused by the 'native' subtype, which is a subtype for Outsiders -- only -- to specify that they are considered natives of the Material plane despite being Outsiders, which are usually Extraplanar. That's not the only way you can be native to the Material plane; anything that lacks an Extraplanar subtype is also considered native to the Material plane.)

Assuming the rules are correct, and the creatures are always extraplanar, then the animated object is extraplanar when off the PMP, no matter where it was created (as it cannot be native)

[Gemini476]

[double-edit] Actually, taking one of those feats in CPsi that grants manifesting would give you the ability to use Tashalatora to stack monk and soulknife. Whee!

What, Hidden Talent? Soulknife is already a psionic class (for some unfathomable reason), so that should work.

...Assuming that this informal competition runs on the same rules as the Monk one (that is, the monk needs to be monky), how do you make sure that the Soulknife is still a Soulknife rather than a Monk with some psychic gauntlets?

[thethird]

[edit] Wait. There's a mind blade gauntlet weapon of legacy. Gauntlets count as unarmed strikes, so just apply your mind blade bonuses to that and use that for your flurrying.

It is a dagger so that doesn't work, still it is a nice addition. Levels in legacy champion also allow to shift the bonuses of the legacy weapon around, and manifesting - lucky are particularly useful considering how fast you can reform it.

Also tippy's trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240748) in more detail if anyone needs it.

[OldTrees1]

Assuming the rules are correct, and the creatures are always extraplanar, then the animated object is extraplanar when off the PMP, no matter where it was created (as it cannot be native)
IIRC

The extraplanar subtype appears whenever a creature is somewhere that it is vulnerable to dismissal.

If a Ghost was planeshifted to the material plane, it would gain the extraplanar subtype until it returned to the ethereal plane.

If a Human planeshifted to the astral plane, it would gain the extraplanar subtype until it returned to the material plane.

[shaikujin]

To make it soulknife-ey, simply have 17 levels of soulknife rather than monk ;p

Use flowing blade feat (which can be a monk bonus feat, might be limited to kalashtara race though) to allow flurry with mindblade.

Dragon magazine feat to allow mindblade to take the form of any weapons you are proficient with.

Use that Weapon of Legacy sword that becomes a mindblade and explicitly stacks with mindblade bonus.

Form the mindblade legacy weapon into a cestus. Now you don't need morphing/sizing properties to change your weapon into any other weapon.

Make the weapon an item familiar.

Use chronocharm//necklaces of natural attacks.

All will stack to give a +50-60 WSA weapon (plus legacy weapon abilities) that can morph into any other weapon as required, cannot be stolen/disarmed/destroyed, and can be flurried/pounced with, and can be made of special materials and can be fitted with augment crystals.

My monk build in Tippy's challenge does in fact use the WoL mindblade (though I was using it in Rope Dart form as I didn't have time to do a second psionic build and fit in soulknife levels).

[Nightraiderx]

I'm not bothering with dragon magazine, just going Ardent 3/Soulknife 17

Grabbing Martial Study, Assassin Stance, and Craven, Twf dual mind blades, the feat that makes an opponent flat-footed for a pounce. Practiced Manifester and Overchannel for +7 effect Ardent lvl, so 5th lvl powers. Kalastar to make up the lack of Power points. Shadow Blade for +dex to damage as well as +str. Trade out that stupid psychic strike for extra feats instead. Charge pounce, Sneak attack (apply deathstrike bracers when needed), Stack with items that grant additional Sneak attack.
pounce from conflict domain, grab sychonicity from Hidden Talent. Freedom and Competition Mantles, along with another of your choice. twf/power attack/leap attack/improved bullrush/shock trooper for bonus feats. Grab Improved twf from gloves of balanced hand.

[Pickford]

IIRC

The extraplanar subtype appears whenever a creature is somewhere that it is vulnerable to dismissal.

If a Ghost was planeshifted to the material plane, it would gain the extraplanar subtype until it returned to the ethereal plane.

If a Human planeshifted to the astral plane, it would gain the extraplanar subtype until it returned to the material plane.

According to the MM:


A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. This book assumes that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description.

...

Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane.

So, because animated objects have no extraplanar subtype in the book, they are, according to RAW, native to the Material Plane, regardless of where they are actually made. Interestingly.

[ben-zayb]

According to the MM:



So, because animated objects have no extraplanar subtype in the book, they are, according to RAW, native to the Material Plane, regardless of where they are actually made. Interestingly.

Try to reread that again, because:

...This book assumes that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane......which is hardly the assumption when you're a planehopping being with private demiplanes and who may or may not be even native to the PMP

[TuggyNE]

IIRC

The extraplanar subtype appears whenever a creature is somewhere that it is vulnerable to dismissal.

If a Ghost was planeshifted to the material plane, it would gain the extraplanar subtype until it returned to the ethereal plane.

If a Human planeshifted to the astral plane, it would gain the extraplanar subtype until it returned to the material plane.

This would normally be correct, except that both of those are bad examples in the particular. Ghosts are specifically native to both the material and ethereal planes, and nothing is considered extraplanar on the astral (or ethereal or shadow). Instead, I'd suggest plane shifting a human to the elemental plane of air, where it acquires the extraplanar subtype.

[Threadnaught]

So, because animated objects have no extraplanar subtype in the book, they are, according to RAW, native to the Material Plane, regardless of where they are actually made. Interestingly.

Okay, I'm really happy that you're still determined to prove yourself or whatever this is, but you're horribly wrong in this discussion. Let's take a closer look at that subtype, shall we?


A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane.

What does Native mean? A place of birth/creation? Not if you follow this little piece of information to the letter.


A subtype applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype’s name). Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.

Cut away anything that doesn't refer specifically to Planes and...


Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype’s name).

The only obvious conclusion is that, the only Plane to have any Natives, is the Material Plane. Anything that isn't a Half-Celestial/Fiend or a 20th level Monk can be banished (or banishing is insta kill) to a random plane at any time, regardless of where they are.
Oh btw, let me shoot down that little counter argument.


This line gives a type of climate and terrain where the creature is typically found.

No mention of where they're from, just where they're likely to be.


There's another conclusion that creatures are Native to the plane they were born/created in/on, but that doesn't support what you're arguing. Let's forget about that. It's rather inconvenient for you, isn't it Pickford?


Through this reading of the rules there comes madness, absolute anarchy. It's reading that because it doesn't state that other creatures without the Native subtype are Native to wherever they're from, they're not Native anywhere. In the same way that deciding that because the Human entry in the PHB doesn't specifically state how many limbs a human has, they may have an infinite number of appendages.



I'm an insane troll. I understand the logic of this post perfectly.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Seer_of_Heart:


Holding open a Gate requires concentration. You can't cast any other spells, therefore you can't hail of stone through a Gate yourself, you'd need to hire a lackey to do that. (Or an Ice Assassin, if you're so inclined to that kind of thing, but frankly hiring someone is less of a rube goldberg machine).

Bah, there's lots of ways to get around this (though I did forget portal gate is concentration thanks). For example, familar concentration.

[Pickford]

Try to reread that again, because:
...which is hardly the assumption when you're a planehopping being with private demiplanes and who may or may not be even native to the PMP

Yes, the point exactly. The definitions are based on being on the PMP, if the creature has no listed subtype of extraplanar then by definition they are native to the PMP, not some demiplane.

Threadnaught: You make a false assumption. Native subtype != Native plane. Because your entire argument was founded on this, faulty, first premise, the rest of your argument is also flawed.

[ben-zayb]

Yes, the point exactly. The definitions are based on being on the PMP(O), if the creature has no listed subtype of extraplanar(P) then by definition they are native to the PMP (Q), not some demiplane.

As you said it...Yes, the point exactly. The validity of the definition P->Q also hinges on the validity of premise O, which can be denoted in laymen's terms as O->(P->Q).

In the discussed case, the exact premise O of "encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane" is simply false. To your credit, P->Q can't be concluded automatically to be false (that's "denying the antecedent" fallacy).

However, basic philosophical logic dictates that your statement can't be automatically concluded to be true either. To put it simply, your argument of P->Q (if the creature has no listed subtype of extraplanar, then by definition they are native to the PMP) simply doesn't hold water on account of it being unprovabe.

[Pickford]

As you said it...Yes, the point exactly. The validity of the definition P->Q also hinges on the validity of premise O, which can be denoted in laymen's terms as O->(P->Q).

In the discussed case, the exact premise O of "encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane" is simply false. To your credit, P->Q can't be concluded automatically to be false (that's "denying the antecedent" fallacy).

However, basic philosophical logic dictates that your statement can't be automatically concluded to be true either. To put it simply, your argument of P->Q (if the creature has no listed subtype of extraplanar, then by definition they are native to the PMP) simply doesn't hold water on account of it being unprovabe.

The premise O is a given.

"Creature not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane" (MM, pg. 309)

Logic only works if you get your facts right.

[ben-zayb]

As you said it...Yes, the point exactly. The validity of the definition P->Q also hinges on the validity of premise O, which can be denoted in laymen's terms as O->(P->Q).

In the discussed case, the exact premise O of "encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane" is simply false. To your credit, P->Q can't be concluded automatically to be false (that's "denying the antecedent" fallacy).

However, basic philosophical logic dictates that your statement can't be automatically concluded to be true either. To put it simply, your argument of P->Q (if the creature has no listed subtype of extraplanar, then by definition they are native to the PMP) simply doesn't hold water on account of it being unprovabe.What part of this Premise O is hard to understand?

"Creature not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane" is represented by your claim, the statement P->Q. If you find it hard to understand, I can PM to you how this works.

[Pickford]

What part of this Premise O is hard to understand?

"Creature not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane" is represented by your claim, the statement P->Q. If you find it hard to understand, I can PM to you how this works.

No, it's not. O represents the broad point that the monster manual only lists extraplanar by creatures that are NOT native to the material plane, thus anything that doesn't have it is.

So again, not a claim, a base premise. If you wish to engage in logic games over what it might be like otherwise, fine, but do it on your own time.

[ben-zayb]

No, it's not. O represents the broad point that the monster manual only lists extraplanar by creatures that are NOT native to the material plane, thus anything that doesn't have it is.

So again, not a claim, a base premise. If you wish to engage in logic games over what it might be like otherwise1, fine, but do it on your own time.
Too bad, because Premises themselves are still subject to being True or False; which for the purpose of this discussion, is false.

1: On the contrary, if you wish to engage in logic games over what it might be like for the default situation (as defined in MM) where it is assumed that "encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane", fine, but do it on your own time.

Because this situation is definitely not about encountering animated objects on the material plane.

[Pickford]

Too bad, because Premises themselves are still subject to being True or False; which for the purpose of this discussion, is false.

1: On the contrary, if you wish to engage in logic games over what it might be like for the default situation (as defined in MM) where it is assumed that "encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane", fine, but do it on your own time.

Because this situation is definitely not about encountering animated objects on the material plane.

The same text goes on to say if it's NOT on the PMP (the case you're presenting) native creatures gain the extraplanar subtype.

[ben-zayb]

The same text goes on to say if it's NOT on the PMP (the case you're presenting) native creatures gain the extraplanar subtype.Whatever statement it further "goes on to say" will only be valid once all its qualifying assumption is fulfilled. That's how P->Q work. In the presented case? One of them don't
This book assumes that 1. encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and 2. every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane).

And no, "but Q is already a premise" isn't a counter-argument. That very Premise must also be subject to a validation, which in this case it becomes the new claim in a second Premise-Claim situation.

EDIT: I challenge you to answer a simple query: Did Tippy's encounter with the Animated Object when he initially created it took place in the Material Plane?

[eggynack]

Well, this is kinda pointless. Is there any definition for the term "native" in the book? I don't think there is one, and if there isn't one, then we must once again, as we have so many times in the past, default to standard English definitions. Native means, "being the place or environment in which a person was born or a thing came into being," and in that case, that describes our magical super-plane. We don't need to play crazy logic games to reach that result. The basic animated object may not be listed as extraplanar, but our animated object would be listed as extraplanar, because it's extraplanar. Most animated objects hail from the prime material, but this one doesn't. This one hails from plane foongarsky or whatever, so he's a fancy extraplanar animated object. It's all rather simple.

[TuggyNE]

Well, this is kinda pointless. Is there any definition for the term "native" in the book? I don't think there is one, and if there isn't one, then we must once again, as we have so many times in the past, default to standard English definitions. Native means, "being the place or environment in which a person was born or a thing came into being," and in that case, that describes our magical super-plane. We don't need to play crazy logic games to reach that result. The basic animated object may not be listed as extraplanar, but our animated object would be listed as extraplanar, because it's extraplanar. Most animated objects hail from the prime material, but this one doesn't. This one hails from plane foongarsky or whatever, so he's a fancy extraplanar animated object. It's all rather simple.

And eggy hits it out of the park.

[Xar Zarath]

Thanks to Tippy and the rest of you playgrounders, it would not be very difficult for a 20th level Wizard to face off against Elder Evils and survive.

That concludes this thread then, so before it devolves any further from what the thread is about, I humbly suggest that we not get into it further and lets just close this thread.

[eggynack]

And eggy hits it out of the park.
Thanks good sir. That was getting rather confusing. I basically popped in, took a look at the horrific logical snarl that this thread has become, and left with my head in my hands, at least five or six times. And I usually like this kinda thread, where you use the opponent's premises as written, and their arbitrary version of logic, and turn them to your own conclusion. On the other hand, I do so love a good, "But view out in the distance. A dictionary has handily resolved our problems," argument, so things worked out alright.

Edit:
Thanks to Tippy and the rest of you playgrounders, it would not be very difficult for a 20th level Wizard to face off against Elder Evils and survive.

That concludes this thread then, so before it devolves any further from what the thread is about, I humbly suggest that we not get into it further and lets just close this thread.
Heh. If only that were actually how it worked. Pickford's out at the moment, so my stance will stand valiant for the couple of hours until I sleep. Then he'll likely say something, though I know not the specifics, seeing as I am not Pickford (or am I?), and the thread will continue for another dozen or two pages.

[georgie_leech]

(or am I?)

Oh gods I hope not. Otherwise that Tier List thread got even more circular. :smalleek:

[eggynack]

Oh gods I hope not. Otherwise that Tier List thread got even more circular. :smalleek:
What better way to ensure that the forum collapses into anarchy than to always take both sides of every argument? When you lack a foil, what is better than just making one up? The only real question is, which one is the real me? Am I truly eggynack, fighting for all things pro-druid and anti-monk, or am I Pickford, champion of mounted archers and weapon supremacy? Maybe even I don't know for sure who I am anymore.

[georgie_leech]

What better way to ensure that the forum collapses into anarchy than to always take both sides of every argument? When you lack a foil, what is better than just making one up? The only real question is, which one is the real me? Am I truly eggynack, fighting for all things pro-druid and anti-monk, or am I Pickford, champion of mounted archers and weapon supremacy? Maybe even I don't know for sure who I am anymore.

Although it's a joke, I have to admit I'm weirdly fascinated by the idea, like a story where the Batman and Joker are the same man. Are "they" driven by some urge for glory but lack a worthy opponent to battle? Is he actually acting out a plot to let chaos reign? Or is he just that bored? Does he even know anymore? Or has Tippy been having fun with Ice Assassins and Mind Rape again?

[eggynack]

Although it's a joke, I have to admit I'm weirdly fascinated by the idea, like a story where the Batman and Joker are the same man. Are "they" driven by some urge for glory but lack a worthy opponent to battle? Is he actually acting out a plot to let chaos reign? Or is he just that bored? Does he even know anymore? Or has Tippy been having fun with Ice Assassins and Mind Rape again?
Yeah, it's certainly a thing I've thought about in the past. I'm pretty sure I've seen such things in media of some kind, but the idea of having a forum sock puppet, not to tacitly endorse your reasoning, but to argue against you at every turn, amuses me for some reason. As for Tippy, I like to think that we're all his mind rape'd ice assassins, and he's given us leave to do and argue as we please. At least until the Stronkleton singularity draws near, anyway.

[Eldariel]

Although it's a joke, I have to admit I'm weirdly fascinated by the idea, like a story where the Batman and Joker are the same man. Are "they" driven by some urge for glory but lack a worthy opponent to battle? Is he actually acting out a plot to let chaos reign? Or is he just that bored? Does he even know anymore? Or has Tippy been having fun with Ice Assassins and Mind Rape again?

It's the old Sherlock Holmes-dilemma. Moriartry was his only equal in intelligence and nobody witnessed the fight to the death (or even saw Moriartry at the same time as Holmes) ergo Sherlock Holmes was probably actually Moriartry himself.

[ben-zayb]

Concur. The question is already resolved, anyway.

Although I thought the story of joker was more like this (http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/a2NE3Md_700b_v1.jpg) instead.

[Threadnaught]

Threadnaught: You make a false assumption. Native subtype != Native plane. Because your entire argument was founded on this, faulty, first premise, the rest of your argument is also flawed.

Really? You're actually doing this?

If you want my real argument, read the stuff I crossed out. Everything else is the kind of things a Munchkin would do just to turn Dismissal into the single most powerful Spell in the game. Or get infinite actions as a Human at 1st level.


My premise, is that the only mention of what is Native, is mentioned in the Native Subtype, which refers to a very limited number of creatures.


Well, this is kinda pointless. Is there any definition for the term "native" in the book? I don't think there is one, and if there isn't one, then we must once again, as we have so many times in the past, default to standard English definitions. Native means, "being the place or environment in which a person was born or a thing came into being," and in that case, that describes our magical super-plane.

Damn it eggynack. Don't you dare say it's native to the plane it was born/created on. :smallannoyed:


The basic animated object may not be listed as extraplanar, but our animated object would be listed as extraplanar, because it's extraplanar. Most animated objects hail from the prime material, but this one doesn't. This one hails from plane foongarsky or whatever, so he's a fancy extraplanar animated object. It's all rather simple.

No, that's not true. That's impossible. Spam it. (http://nooooooooooooooo.com/)


Technically it has already been pointed out to Pickford and he ignored it, so who knows. Maybe your alter ego will continue arguing against what several people have just been saying.



Back on topic, I'd like to see the Pandorym's body and Leviathan get statted up, those would be interesting. If a Wizard wanted to be as lazy as possible while taking out all nine Elder Evils couldn't they just Wish themselves to Mechanus and get some Quaruts and Varakhuts on the case? Once they've sealed Pandorym, taken out Obligatum VII and decommissioned the Obligatum line, they can effectively send an infinite number of Inevitables to take out each Elder Evil or their servants. Beyond the first Wish and possibly helping them with Pandorym, the Wizard doesn't need to lift a finger. And may be heavely rewarded anyway.

[BWR]

It's the old Sherlock Holmes-dilemma. Moriartry was his only equal in intelligence and nobody witnessed the fight to the death (or even saw Moriartry at the same time as Holmes) ergo Sherlock Holmes was probably actually Moriartry himself.

How is this a dilemma?
How does it follow that because no one saw them fight that the two were one?

[Slipperychicken]

What better way to ensure that the forum collapses into anarchy than to always take both sides of every argument? When you lack a foil, what is better than just making one up? The only real question is, which one is the real me? Am I truly eggynack, fighting for all things pro-druid and anti-monk, or am I Pickford, champion of mounted archers and weapon supremacy? Maybe even I don't know for sure who I am anymore.

On the internet, no one knows you have multiple personality disorder.

[Eldariel]

How is this a dilemma?
How does it follow that because no one saw them fight that the two were one?

I didn't extrapolate because I didn't want to start on this completely unrelated tangent, but if you must know, I suppose we should make a small incursion upon the topic. First of all, no, the fact that nobody witnessed their fight to the alleged death (a convenient way to mask the very existence of the second personality) is not the reason for the theory.

Of course not, it's merely a key point in that since this is the case, the event that should disprove the theory does not. A few points that suggest this direction:
- When Holmes first mentions Moriartry to Watson, Holmes says he had struggled with Moriartry for years and yet Watson only learns of him now in spite of having been Holmes's confidant and closest friend for all that time.
- The respect and attitude of Holmes and Moriartry towards each other is reported to be mirrored: Holmes is enthusiastic to finally have met an antagonist with intellect to match his own. Moriartry had expressed similar feelings, according to Holmes's account.
- There are no witnesses to Moriartry's ghost-like visit in Holmes's apartment, nor for the three attempts of murder afterwards Holmes insist on having happened (same with the final struggle at the Reichenbach Falls).
- There are only few shallow pieces of evidence of Moriartry's existence, except for Holmes's testimony. Footsteps that could be anyone's, a tall man trying (and failing) to board the train carrying Holmes & Watson, letters from supposed Moriartry's brother after his death (arguing against Watson's description of Moriartry's character, suggesting the real Moriartry is long dead and a different person from the Moriartry that operated during Holmes's active time).
- The criminals basically never see Moriartry; he does all his work from the shadows and never properly shows himself. There's nobody who can actually say what he looks like, aside form Holmes.
- Holmes's reappearance after his alleged mutual death in his fight with Dr. Moriartry.
- Holmes refuses new cases in 1890 and complains about how boring and unoriginal the modern criminals are, barely worth his time. Holmes also describes Moriartry with features would describe his own.

Principally, it comes down to nobody actually ever witnessing Moriartry including the people working under him and yet clearly there is one mind behind the wave of events. Holmes complains about the lack of a worthy opponent until boom, one appears that seems to share Holmes's view of their worthy opposition. They both conveniently allegedly die at the same time, unseen, with Holmes reappearing later. And of course, Holmes is the only person to ever have actually properly witnessed Moriartry.

[Nightraiderx]

What happens in Fight club, STAYS in Fight club.