[PF] Stabbing Shot

[AstralFire]

I don't quite get this feat. Is it using an arrow as an improvised weapon, or a special kind of shot?

The feat title heavily leans towards the latter.


When adjacent to an opponent and making a full-attack action with a longbow or shortbow (including composite bows), you may choose to make a melee attack against that opponent with a drawn arrow rather than firing it. If the attack hits—whether or not it does damage—your target is pushed back 5 feet away from you. You can then fire arrows from your bow normally, at the original target, or at another target within range.

Red makes me think "I am stabbing with an arrow non-proficiently and without the benefits of my bow feats". Blue suggests it's a special kind of shot being treated as a melee attack, since it specifically requires a drawn arrow and it says the rest of your attacks are "fire[d] . . . normally" and would be significantly better.

[MonochromeTiger]

I don't quite get this feat. Is it using an arrow as an improvised weapon, or a special kind of shot?

The feat title heavily leans towards the latter.



Red makes me think "I am stabbing with an arrow non-proficiently and without the benefits of my bow feats". Blue suggests it's a special kind of shot being treated as a melee attack, since it specifically requires a drawn arrow and it says the rest of your attacks are "fire[d] . . . normally" and would be significantly better.

personal interpretation is that it was meant to be an improvised weapon feat involving arrows but wound up being phrased badly. as far as I can tell from the phrasing it sounds like "point blank shot" should've been this feat instead of just the close range one since you're literally shooting the target with the bow right next to them....but yeah personally I'd refluff to be an arrow stab and not require the bow, that's just me though.

[cakellene]

I would say point blank shot, otherwise you have using arrow as improvised weapon with more force behind blow than stabbing someone with a spear.

[AstralFire]

I'd definitely prefer a point-blank shot. More in my flavor and more useful.

[Psyren]

You're missing the point of this one - the key is that it pushes them away from you, even if you don't do any damage. That way you can fire the rest of your shots without provoking. Better still, that first hit is a melee attack, so that one won't provoke either.

A = Archer
O = Opponent

Opponent is in melee range: AO

Archer full-attacks with this, poking with first attack:

1st hit: A _ O
Subsequent hits: A > O

Where it falters is vs. opponents with reach, though with those you can at least 5-foot step-away (even if they have Step Up.) And if you're adjacent to someone with reach and Step Up, you can poke them with this to get 5ft. of space between you, step away safely during your full attack to widen that 5ft. more, and fire the rest of your shots without provoking. (Unless they have 15ft. reach anyway, in which case you're screwed.)

[Ninja_Grand]

Its Stab, then Fire with any extra attacks without AoO.

^He said it better thou.

[AstralFire]

I caught the point, but at a -6 penalty overall before factoring in difference in Dex and Str or Weapon Focus or Magic Item Enhancement, I'm... uncomfortable with it if it's with the arrow as an improvised melee weapon. There's a good chance to miss.

[Psyren]

Catch Off-Guard?

(If -6 means you'll miss, there's no point in full-attacking anyway.)

[AstralFire]

Catch Off-Guard?

(If -6 means you'll miss, there's no point in full-attacking anyway.)

It's more like -6 penalty + no enchantment + difference in Str/Dex. At higher levels I could probably swallow it, but at level 9 that'd be like... -12 or so variance.

[Psyren]

It's more like -6 penalty + no enchantment + difference in Str/Dex. At higher levels I could probably swallow it, but at level 9 that'd be like... -12 or so variance.

Why would there be no enhancement? You're specifically attacking with a drawn arrow, therefore the bow should still be bestowing its magic on the ammunition.

And archers should have finesse anyway.

[AstralFire]

Why would there be no enhancement? You're specifically attacking with a drawn arrow, therefore the bow should still be bestowing its magic on the ammunition.

And archers should have finesse anyway.

Dervish Dancer as a free feat, no reason to go back and get Weapon Finesse on a feat-starved build for my close-combat weapon. Have a point with the enhancement, though. I might have to just leave this out of my build, but I can see the use for a Fighter or Ranger Archer.

[Psyren]

Not sure which build you're using but most Dervish Dance users will have Finesse. And Finesse is needed for helpful feats like Piranha Strike.

Note that there will be new "Dex to damage" feats in Advanced Class Guide so we won't need to hang our hats on Dervish Dance forever.

[grarrrg]

Not sure which build you're using but most Dervish Dance users will have Finesse.

There's a Bard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/dawnflower-dervish) for that.
(and there was no mention of the class being played so...)


As for the on topic stuff, I'd say the intent is that it's considered a "melee" attack only so far as it doesn't provoke an AoO. You would still use your Bow Bonuses, and any bonuses from feats that are applicable.

The real question is, does the arrow go *poof* because you used it?
Or does it stick around because you didn't actually 'shoot' it?

[AstralFire]

Not sure which build you're using but most Dervish Dance users will have Finesse. And Finesse is needed for helpful feats like Piranha Strike.

Note that there will be new "Dex to damage" feats in Advanced Class Guide so we won't need to hang our hats on Dervish Dance forever.

Dawnflower Dervish Bard.

Str 8/Dex 15/Con 14/Int 14/Wis 10/Cha 18.

It's primarily an archery build, but uses the scimitar as a back-up weapon. Deadly Aim is the only thing like Piranha Strike that I can use.

[Psyren]

There's a Bard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/dawnflower-dervish) for that.
(and there was no mention of the class being played so...)

I'm aware of DD but as you said, the OP didn't mention it anywhere.



The real question is, does the arrow go *poof* because you used it?
Or does it stick around because you didn't actually 'shoot' it?

Good question. I'd have it stick around.



It's primarily an archery build, but uses the scimitar as a back-up weapon. Deadly Aim is the only thing like Piranha Strike that I can use.

You should probably grab Finesse anyway in case you get swallowed/grappled/entangled and have to use your dagger.

[AstralFire]

The OP didn't mention it, but my last topic did, thought you'd have remembered. Sorry.

Don't really have room for Finesse, honestly... feats are looking like this:

1: Point-Blank
3: Precise
5: Rapid Shot
7: Manyshot
9, 11, 13, 15: Arcane Strike, Deadly Aim, Clustered Shots, and Stabbing Shots or Weapon Focus, depending on what I end up needing most in play.
17, 19: Probably Scattered Shot and Improved Scattered Shot if I got WF. No idea otherwise.

Still learning PF.

[Psyren]

The OP didn't mention it, but my last topic did, thought you'd have remembered. Sorry.

Was I in it? Regardless - nope, I didn't.



Don't really have room for Finesse, honestly...

It's up to you. Personally I would rather have it than Rapid Shot early on. Again, if you get swallowed it's GG because you can neither use your bow nor your scimitar in that scenario.

[AstralFire]

Was I in it? Regardless - nope, I didn't.

Yep! First response, it's why I PMed you, too.


It's up to you. Personally I would rather have it than Rapid Shot early on. Again, if you get swallowed it's GG because you can neither use your bow nor your scimitar in that scenario.

So far, the campaign seems to be taking an urban focus, which means fear of swallowing is low. Grappling is an issue, though. By the time I actually get to level 3, I'll have a better picture of what to expect.

Actually, not seeing where grappling is better with a light weapon than a one-handed in PF... looking over stuff.

[Psyren]

Actually, not seeing where grappling is better with a light weapon than a one-handed in PF... looking over stuff.

You can only use a light weapon in a grapple.

[AstralFire]

You can only use a light weapon in a grapple.


Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.

http://paizo.com/prd/combat.html

[Psyren]

My bad, guess I mixed it up with the rules for being swallowed.

Regardless, I stand by what I said - Finesse is a good idea to have even if you get DD for free.