Mark of Justice vs. Charm??

[Surefoot]

First off: I *love* OotS. I've read through all of them at least 3 times, and I'll probably do it again more than once. Best web comic out there.

OK, now here's the question. Would Belkar *really* have hurt the other OotS members while under Nale's Charm? I mean, Belkar knew he was under the influence of a Mark of Justice, and he'd be a 30 lb squirming heap of halfling flesh if he injured them.

On the one hand, it seems to me his spirit of self-preservation would have won out over Nale's charm, and that going against the Mark of Justice would have fallen under the "something the target wouldn't normally do" and the request should have been ignored. On the other hand, Belkar *was* ready to sacrifice his life in order to make Miko lose her paladin status (although he thought Durkon would have Raised him), so his self-preservation isn't so great that he wouldn't hurt himself to bring harm to someone else.

What ch'yall think??

[chibibar]

Well... unfortunately Belkar's personality would allow him to do what he do with or without the charm. The charm itself won't kill him. It just render him inability to do anything else. BUT I do remember Belkar mention there are other means of "finishing" off thing with the charm on (I gotta check back I could remember wrong)

Also the charm restrict on doing "Lethal Damage" You can still do non-lethal damage and make the person go into unconcious. Also having a flower pot landing on their head while unconcious or happen to bang into the wall really hard could knock them into "dead" via high enough negative HP :)

[Green Bean]

Belkar doesn't always act in his own best interests (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0157.html)

[Golt]

Belkar doesn't always act in his own best interests (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0157.html)

Still, it wasn't against his instincts. He just wanted to put something on fire, so hi did.
I think the question is- would he, under the charm and acting as his instinct dictates him (annihilation of other lifeforms), realize that killing someone would activate the mark, or would he just have to much fun to remember it?

[onasuma]

It would be in his best interests not to attack fellow party members, but would he strongly object to it? I doubt it.

[Lisp]

I think Belkar often needs to be reminded of the Mark
of Justice and doesn't let it impact his true will. The
Charm just enabled him to do what comes naturally
to our furry footed little killer. Belkar thinks differently,
is vengeful and bends his mind around ideas of killing
the party and taking their stuff. Nale appealed to his
inner nature as only a like minded Evil person with a
Evil purpose could.

<<Shudder>> Judy Garland show tunes strike deep into the spine and twist. "Meet me in St.Louis", you first.

[chibibar]

I think Belkar often needs to be reminded of the Mark
of Justice and doesn't let it impact his true will. The
Charm just enabled him to do what comes naturally
to our furry footed little killer. Belkar thinks differently,
is vengeful and bends his mind around ideas of killing
the party and taking their stuff. Nale appealed to his
inner nature as only a like minded Evil person with a
Evil purpose could.

<<Shudder>> Judy Garland show tunes strike deep into the spine and twist. "Meet me in St.Louis", you first.

That is true, Belkar's attention span and memory is also pretty short. He need to be remind stuff once in a while :)

[Gregory Lionheart]

Uh, hey, my speciality is playing Pali's, so sorry if I'm interpreting Dispel Magic wrong =D.

This doesn't solve the issue of the Mark of Justice while he was chasing his party around, but has anyone considered that it's possible V-man (I think V's a guy) dispeled the Mark of Justice when he tried to dispel the charm? Dispel cast on a person would have a chance to affect all enchantments on that person yes?

Again, hardcore DND'er but not harcore spellcaster. Just a thought.

[Gregory Lionheart]

Oh yea, one more comment too, we've already seen Belkar forget about the Mark of Justice when he was fighting Yokiyok, so I would assume if he forgets about it, the Charm WOULD influece him to actually kill his party. But if he did, OUCH =D.

[Amon Star]

Uh, hey, my speciality is playing Pali's, so sorry if I'm interpreting Dispel Magic wrong =D.

This doesn't solve the issue of the Mark of Justice while he was chasing his party around, but has anyone considered that it's possible V-man (I think V's a guy) dispeled the Mark of Justice when he tried to dispel the charm? Dispel cast on a person would have a chance to affect all enchantments on that person yes?

Again, hardcore DND'er but not harcore spellcaster. Just a thought.

Mark of Justice can't be removed by Dispel Magic. Also, it's caster is likely better that :nale:, of if the dispel couldn't remove his charm, then it could remove the mark even if it was possible.

[warmachine]

Belkar is impulsive and fails to check all the details but he has healthy instincts of self preservation. One doesn't forget having a mark drawn on one's head. Belkar isn't going to do something that will make him sicker and sicker till he can't act. It is more likely that he had a plan to kill Durkon without dealing the lethal damage himself. That takes cunning but Belkar has that.

[The Familiar]

Excellent question--one I've been pondering myself.

The stipulations of the Mark were that if Belkar deals lethal damage to any living creature within the bounds of any city/town/village, gets more than a mile from Roy or annoys Roy into activating the rune, he'll get increasingly ill (Con drain?) until he becomes incapable of hurting anyone.

The way I see it, that doesn't say anything about trying to deal lethal damage--only that if he so much as squashes a roach while within the bounds of civilization there will be consequences. The Mark isn't a leash or muzzle, but more like a shock collar tuned to an Electronic Fence: Belkar has plenty of latitude, provided he doesn't cross the line.

Under those limits, he could still have fought Yokyok to defend himself--provided he didn't do lethal damage.
However, Belkar doesn't do anything half way: pulling his punches is simply out of his idiom.

Belkar has gleefully attempted to kill party members for as base a reason as the XP; it wouldn't take much (especially charmed) to entice him to make a go of a mailman on the sidewalk, consequences or not.
Fortunately, Durkon and Vaarsuvius never gave him the chance to get that far, and in all likeliness things are back to status quo now that the Charm has worn off.

[TinSoldier]

Excellent question--one I've been pondering myself.

The stipulations of the Mark were that if Belkar deals lethal damage to any living creature within the bounds of any city/town/village, gets more than a mile from Roy or annoys Roy into activating the rune, he'll get increasingly ill (Con drain?) until he becomes incapable of hurting anyone.

The way I see it, that doesn't say anything about trying to deal lethal damage--only that if he so much as squashes a roach while within the bounds of civilization there will be consequences. The Mark isn't a leash or muzzle, but more like a shock collar tuned to an Electronic Fence: Belkar has plenty of latitude, provided he doesn't cross the line.Right. If he tries to hit some one, no consequences. If he succeeds in hitting someone, consequences.


Under those limits, he could still have fought Yokyok to defend himself--provided he didn't do lethal damage.
However, Belkar doesn't do anything half way: pulling his punches is simply out of his idiom.Plus he would have suffered a -4 to hit penalty for trying to hit Yok-yok with non-lethal damage.

[the_tick_rules]

ah another of these. we'll i'll say what i said before. the mark only provided pain or sickness or whatever as a deterent for breaking it's rules. it provided no direct mental influence to stop belkar from killing. so belkar could have killed fellow OOTS members easily while charmed, he would have been uncomfortable while doing it, unless the mark eventually made him physically incapable of continuing.

[Ganjuu-kun]

I think that if Belkar had had the chance, he would've killed the lot of them. I don't think he really cares about himself, as long as he can inflict pain on others.

[Jewel Thief]

In D&D, doesn't the Mark of Justice cause you to be cursed? So he can do lethal damage, it'll just curse him. If it comes down to it, he'd kill, definitely.