Pathfinder magic skill buffs.

[Doomboy911]

Working on preparing for a fight and as a cleric I can't help but drool at some of the wizard spells. Right now I'm off to find some magical items that give me a boost to my use magic device but for once I don't know of any items that do that. Can anyone think of anything that gives bonuses to Use Magic Device.

[Spore]

By RAW, you can fluff a masterwork tool, that gives you +2 on the check.

[Doomboy911]

Yeah but I can exactly get masterwork wands and masterwork scrolls.

[Bhaakon]

You create a masterwork mundane item that gives you +2 to UMD, not make the wands and such masterwork.

Usually they're fluffed as book of common activation words, texts of magical item design theory, something along those lines. You have the MW tool in one hand and the wand or other magic item in the other.

[Doomboy911]

You create a masterwork mundane item that gives you +2 to UMD, not make the wands and such masterwork.

Usually they're fluffed as book of common activation words, texts of magical item design theory, something along those lines. You have the MW tool in one hand and the wand or other magic item in the other.

What would said item be?

[Greenish]

What would said item be?The wand or scroll would be the wand or scroll you wanted to use.

The UMD item would be something following the guidelines here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/tools-kits#TOC-Tool-Masterwork).

[avr]

Anything which buffs charisma based skill checks should help too. A circlet of persuasion springs to mind.

Edit - or a cleric spell, Tap Inner Beauty

[Vortenger]

MW tool grants +2 circumstance to UMD

Circlet of Persuasion grants +3 competence to all cha based skills and checks

Relationship scores in PF can grant a +1 morale bonus to all Cha skills and checks. Find a notable NPC and start schmoozing!

3.5 resource: Admiral's Bicrone (stormwrack, 50k) +5 bonus to cha skills and checks, among others

That's all I could think of off the cuff without spending a feat. The first 3 are PF specific, so thats an easy +6 bonus you could be rocking by 4th-5th level. What are your numbers like? What is your Cha? Your level? Your ranks in UMD?

edit: also, +Cha gear, since no one mentioned it. +2 Cha is another +1 to UMD. Thats +7 by level 5.

[Doomboy911]

Thank you all this was very helpful. Surprising the dm has barely taken notice of me using magic device haven't had to roll once.

[Slipperychicken]

Surprising the dm has barely taken notice of me using magic device haven't had to roll once.

Does he know that you're supposed to roll UMD? Because personally, I consider it cheating to take advantage of your GM's lack of rules knowledge.

[Doomboy911]

Oh no he's more experienced than I am, he has me roll on heal checks and a bunch of other suff I guess he considers my casting inconsequential. Haven't had to roll a spellcraft check in a while either.

[Urpriest]

Oh no he's more experienced than I am, he has me roll on heal checks and a bunch of other suff I guess he considers my casting inconsequential. Haven't had to roll a spellcraft check in a while either.

It's not really the DM's job to tell you when to roll. If you're using a skill for a clear usage, you should be the one rolling.

[Slipperychicken]

It's not really the DM's job to tell you when to roll. If you're using a skill for a clear usage, you should be the one rolling.

Agreed. This is more or less what I was trying to get at before.

[Vortenger]

Does he know that you're supposed to roll UMD? Because personally, I consider it cheating to take advantage of your GM's lack of rules knowledge.

Seconded. If you know more about the rules, teach your friends. It'll help the experience as a whole. Winning without risk gets stale fast.

[Doomboy911]

Well the way it basically goes down is thusly: I use my wand of reduce person. I reach for my dice and he starts going on about how everyone now been shrunk.

[Slipperychicken]

Well the way it basically goes down is thusly: I use my wand of reduce person. I reach for my dice and he starts going on about how everyone now been shrunk.

I'd bet you money that he forgot you're supposed to roll UMD. Either that, or he wrongly assumed that reduce person is on your spell list. Regardless of what error caused this oversight, it's your job to remind him that you're supposed to roll UMD.

[Dalebert]

Remember that once you're at +10, you should be able to take 10 out of combat and not have to roll for spell trigger devices like wands. At least I think that's how it works. Someone correct me otherwise. This is an issue for me too with my witch. Their spell list is depressing. I feel like they surveyed people to figure out what the top favorite wiz/sor spells are of each level and removed those first. I'm sort of experiencing buyer's remorse and have seriously contemplating switching to a wizard.

[Keneth]

Remember that once you're at +10, you should be able to take 10 out of combat and not have to roll for spell trigger devices like wands.

Actually, no, you can't.


You cannot take 10 with this skill.

[Slipperychicken]

Remember that once you're at +10, you should be able to take 10 out of combat and not have to roll for spell trigger devices like wands.

[...]

Someone correct me otherwise.

Here you go.


UMD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/use-magic-device) Excerpt

Special

You cannot take 10 with this skill.

You can't aid another on Use Magic Device checks. Only the user of the item may attempt such a check.

If you have the Magical Aptitude feat, you gain a +2 bonus on Use Magic Device checks. If you have 10 or more ranks in this skill, the bonus increases to +4.

EDIT: Ninjas, man.

[Dalebert]

Well that sucks but I guess it makes sense. This has me again considering one level of wizard or just switch to playing a wizard.

[Vortenger]

Well that sucks but I guess it makes sense. This has me again considering one level of wizard or just switch to playing a wizard.

You have spammable monster shattering moves, one of the best spell lists in the game, are one of the vaunted tier 1 team, and you wish you were a wizard? While I do understand the subtlety of the witch's spells aren't as fun or flashy as some wizard spells, but really?

What, I must know, does one level of wizard grant you thats worth missing your class features and spellcasting progression? UMD is not worth giving up casting progression over.

[Slipperychicken]

Well that sucks but I guess it makes sense. This has me again considering one level of wizard or just switch to playing a wizard.

Or just roll UMD. I've done it for CLW wands at low levels, and it worked out fine. It's nice to have a failure chance sometimes.

Also, if you're worried about Cleric not being as brokenly, stupidly powerful as a Wizard, try playing a Cavalier or something to take you down a peg and realize that you don't always need to play the most broken class in the game. Also enjoy the fact that Clerics get their whole list for free and don't need to worry about spellbooks.

[Dalebert]

You have spammable monster shattering moves, one of the best spell lists in the game,

I disagree about that last part. It seems like witch spells consist largely of single target debuffs or dmg that are save-or-nothing, basically duplicating benefits of hexes or even are a watered-down version, the DCs of which will not scale like their hexes. They miss out on a ton of the best utility spells like prestidigitation, arcane lock, or floating disk, and they have NO walls and none of the basic illusion spells like silent image. Why do they need beguiling gift or bungle or a myriad other variety of ways to save-or-nothing mildly debuff a single opponent when they can spam slumber, evil eye, or ice tomb? A lot of their spells seem really impractical because they rely on a caster to melee, like touch spells, or worse, actual melee like icicle dagger (that you can't hand to the rogue) or that floating dagger that fights by your side, or do really slow damage that seems to be about torturing someone in a super evil manner.

It feels like a witch would be a nice bonus to the group if you already have a "real" arcane caster, but that they aren't able to really fill in for one. I'm sure they're nice in a group where you're the only caster (arcane or divine) since they get a few cures and such. Admittedly, those are a nice bonus.


are one of the vaunted tier 1 team,

I keep hearing about these tiers. Who came up with them and what are they based on?


and you wish you were a wizard? While I do understand the subtlety of the witch's spells aren't as fun or flashy as some wizard spells, but really?

I guess I just don't see any rhyme or reason to their spell list. All I know is as I was picking spells to learn, my first choices of spells weren't there. I did the same thing for other levels and it kept happening. Almost all of my favorite spells from each level aren't there, often the ones I consider staples. That gets painful. Sometimes it seems to fit the flavor of a witch, like basically any shape-shifting spell, and yet they don't have most of those. I totally don't expect them to have the big blasty spells like fireball or cone of cold, and yet they have lightning bolt. I don't know why. Maybe because the criteria for them having a spell seems to be that it must be really impractical and not too useful, i.e. lightning bolt. How often do your enemies line up for you, after all?


What, I must know, does one level of wizard grant you thats worth missing your class features and spellcasting progression? UMD is not worth giving up casting progression over.

The ability to use spell trigger items and fill in some of the gaps, at least some of the low level stuph, particularly utility type spells like arcane lock, but maybe more when I can eventually get my hands on a staff, maybe be able to throw up just one kind of wall in a pinch. Extra first level spells that remain useful for a long time. Scribe scroll. An arcane bonded item that I could enchant with extra abilities later.


Also, if you're worried about Cleric not being as brokenly, stupidly powerful as a Wizard

IMHO, clerics are the most brokenly, stupidly powerful class in the game. The only reason I didn't play one this game is because we already have an Inquisitor and no one else is playing an arcane caster. Plus, I'm already playing a cleric in another weekly game (3.5 tho) and he's awesome.

[Urpriest]

I guess I just don't see any rhyme or reason to their spell list. All I know is as I was picking spells to learn, my first choices of spells weren't there. I did the same thing for other levels and it kept happening. Almost all of my favorite spells from each level aren't there, often the ones I consider staples. That gets painful.

I think the big issue here is that a Witch is not a Wizard. If you're a Witch, you're doing Witch-ish things, not Wizard-ish things. You should never approach a new class by looking for spells you "consider staples", because there's no reason for two different classes to share any spells at all.

Now that said, I do get the impression that Witches have less utility than Wizards, and a bit less BFC outside of SOL-esque things. In exchange, they get a decent array of Cleric stuff. They also have a lot of the casting-modifying Wizard toys, since most of those came out in the same book at the Witch. So I think they've still got a solid range of capabilities, just a different range than that of Wizards. And I mean, you did pick the Witch after reading the spell list, right?

[Dalebert]

I think the big issue here is that a Witch is not a Wizard. If you're a Witch, you're doing Witch-ish things, not Wizard-ish things.

At the risk of a further derailing of the thread...

That's kind of my point. I'm trying to figure out what they consider witch-ish things to be other than "none of the really good spells". What's the theme exactly, and why does arcane lock not fit it?

They do seem not at all utility-oriented which I should accept if I want to play one. No prestidigitation, arcane lock, knock, floating disk, walls, etc. I'd mind less if someone in the party was, but I'm the only arcane caster.

Seriously tho, NO walls at all? Wall of gloom, wall of bones, wall of vermin. They all seem pretty witchy, don't they?


Now that said, I do get the impression that Witches have less utility than Wizards, and a bit less BFC outside of SOL-esque things.

You lost me with your acronyms.


And I mean, you did pick the Witch after reading the spell list, right?

Not really :) but to be fair, I had a chance to change and I still can. I started off wanting to play a cleric necromancer but my DM sold me on a gravewalker witch, making them sound amazing when he described them. I first experienced some buyer's remorse around the time I was picking my 0 and 1st lvl spells and then looked at the higher levels. I experienced a little more buyer's remorse when I realized a gravewalker's bonethrall doesn't work as well as Command Undead (the feat). I experienced even more buyer's remorse when I found out a necromancy specialist wizard gets the Command Undead feat. I experienced more buyer's remorse when I realized witches have it a lot harder when it comes to learning new spells from their already more limited spell list. All that is what had me seriously considering a switch.

If witches had something like the warlock's ability to take 10 at any time on a UMD check, that would help a lot. (There, I'm back on topic!) They are sort of PF's version of warlocks, after all.

[Urpriest]

At the risk of a further derailing of the thread...

That's kind of my point. I'm trying to figure out what they consider witch-ish things to be other than "none of the really good spells". What's the theme exactly, and why does arcane lock not fit it?

They do seem not at all utility-oriented which I should accept if I want to play one. No prestidigitation, arcane lock, knock, floating disk, walls, etc. I'd mind less if someone in the party was, but I'm the only arcane caster.

Seriously tho, NO walls at all? Wall of gloom, wall of bones, wall of vermin. They all seem pretty witchy, don't they?

Wall of gloom and wall of vermin don't exist in PF. Wall of bones is 3rd party, but Witches do get it, so if you're playing with it you have access.




You lost me with your acronyms.

:smallconfused::smallconfused:
I'm pretty sure I've seen you around the forums before a fair number of times...I'm not terribly used to someone whose avatar I recognize saying things like "what is the Tier system?"

I guess I'm remembering you from non-3.5 threads?

Anyway, BFC means Battlefield Control, SOL means Save-or-Lose. Witches get a lot of spells that force a saving throw and incapacitate opponents, but not a lot of other ways to manipulate the battlefield.

[CombatOwl]

By RAW, you can fluff a masterwork tool, that gives you +2 on the check.

By RAW, it's only 10k or so to craft a magical masterwork tool that gives you a +10 to UMD. Crafting magic items are good according to RAW, and Pathfinder magic crafting means you don't even have to have the spell.

Moreover, screw UMD, just make 1/day wondrous items that cast the spell for you.

[Dalebert]

Wall of gloom and wall of vermin don't exist in PF.

They could though, easily enough. Someone decided not to include them or some other kinda of witchy walls, and decided not to add them to the witch spell list.


I'm pretty sure I've seen you around the forums before a fair number of times...I'm not terribly used to someone whose avatar I recognize saying things like "what is the Tier system?"

I've been around for 2 or 3 months and I've seen the tiers mentioned several times but never explained. Probably doesn't belong here anyway.

I've been browsing the witch spells more and I'm starting to discover a few decent ones that don't seem too terribly redundant with hexes. I think I may go and ahead and give this witch thing a shot. I'm going to max out my UMD and look into some UMD-enhancing suggestions here and fill in some gaps with magic items. Maybe I won't go too crazy. :)

[Vortenger]

Kudos, and best of luck!

[questionmark693]

Can't help with the witch discussion,a s I don't personally play PF, but here is the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266559) where JaronK describes the Tier List and how it works.

[Slipperychicken]

I'm pretty sure I've seen you around the forums before a fair number of times...I'm not terribly used to someone whose avatar I recognize saying things like "what is the Tier system?"


I think it's just because his avatar/username is so memorable that we assume he's been on here longer than he really has.

[Dalebert]

I made my account some time back but then wasn't active for a long time. Got more active again recently.


I think it's just because his avatar/username is so memorable that we assume he's been on here longer than he really has.

Thanx! I made it myself (http://anarchyinyourhead.com/free-stuph/).


The UMD item would be something following the guidelines here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/tools-kits#TOC-Tool-Masterwork).

Based on that, would it make sense to have a glove that only enhanced wand UMD? Maybe it would be wired with mithral a certain way to align the magic energies or would have special runes or maybe some of both. Alternatively, maybe a sort of handle that you insert the wand into. It would take an action to switch out wands and it might make sense to have multiples, one for each of your wands to save you the time of switching them out in combat.


By RAW, it's only 10k or so to craft a magical masterwork tool that gives you a +10 to UMD. Crafting magic items are good according to RAW, and Pathfinder magic crafting means you don't even have to have the spell.

That's going to be out of reasonable price range for some time, and even when it is in the realm of viability, that's a big chunk of your character wealth at least until the very high levels when 10k becomes more trivial.

Can you stack such a magic item with a MW tool, e.g. a +2 tool and a +5 item to get +7? That would put it much more into the realm of cost effectiveness, I think.


Moreover, screw UMD, just make 1/day wondrous items that cast the spell for you.

Sadly, in my PF game, the DM has banned any crafting feats other than spell completion and spell trigger items. It's based on a certain flavor he wants to achieve--has to do with some incentive to just keep and use items we find vs. just immediately selling them and making exactly what we want. He's not just doing it to be mean.

I can order those items though. I'll just have to pay full price.


Or just roll UMD. I've done it for CLW wands at low levels, and it worked out fine. It's nice to have a failure chance sometimes.

I'm not following you. When charges are a limited resource and actions are an even more precious resource, how is a failure chance ever a nice thing? It's a wasted charge, a wasted action, and potentially a harmful effect, and possibly at a time of desperation when you need something specific that's not on your spell list. It might be the difference between life and death or a total wipe.


Can't help with the witch discussion,a s I don't personally play PF, but here is the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266559) where JaronK describes the Tier List and how it works.

Thank you! I've now been properly ejudicated on the subject.