[PF] Questions about how to 'deal' with a summoner in my group

[mevans7]

This is my first post on the forums. I've really enjoyed reading a lot of the postings on here, they've been extremely helpful and informative.

So, to get right down to it, I'm really new to Pathfinder, but since I joined this group at the beginning of the semester, I've been playing once a week and pouring over the rules. I'm a Fighter archer and I've been really careful about making sure I'm within all the rules. This being my first Pathfinder campaign, I've been focusing more on learning mechanics than building an extremely optimized character. As for the group, my character is not weak by any means, so I don't feel like I'm being outshined.

We've got a Master Summoner in the group that, at times, has seemed game-breakingly powerful. An example, with our bard playing Inspire Courage, at level 3 he could summon up to 4 eagles with superior summoning. He would then make a full-round attack with all bonuses applied, 3 attacks per eagle, or 12 attacks.

My interpretation of the rules is this: Summon Monster SLA is a standard action, so summoned monsters act immediately, but cannot make full round attacks in the same round they were summoned in.

I'm finding that, because I'm the new guy, I'm constantly looking up rules, and often I'm finding that my interpretation is very different from some people in the group. Usually, the Summoner and I end up going back and forth. I'm trying to avoid being "that guy" that argues rules at the table.

Am I completely wrong in my interpretation here? And if I'm right, how should I handle the situations without making it seem that I'm trying to knock the summoner down a few pegs because I've got some sort of ax to grind.

[Reinkai]

I've personally found that you just have to pick your battles. When you suspect something is outside of the rules, ask the player or DM for clarification. "I thought that when... Is that not the case?" It's less confrontational and if you're incorrect or the DM rules otherwise, it doesn't leave you looking like an ass.

I know it can be frustrating, but sometimes you just have to let things go. Keep in mind that it's a game and that in the end the point is for the players to have fun. If the loose rule interpretation is bothering you enough, it may be worth it to either get people to start up a second RAW campaign or find other people to play with. I've had to do that before, though I didn't really like a few of the players either.

Edit: Your interpretation is not incorrect, as far as I'm aware.

[Stux]

Good advice from Reinkai there, broadly what I was going to say. It is the DMs prerogative to house rule things, but obviously the aim of the game is to have fun. If he has made a call that you think is bad for the group it is best not to have an argument about it. Rather have a chat with the DM outside of a session and explain why you think its a bad idea.

As for the Summon Monster SLA, I can't see anything myself that would suggest they couldn't act immediately. The text of the spell says that they do act immediately when they are summoned, and there doesn't appear to be anything in the Summoner's SLA class feature that changes this. I may have missed something somewhere though, could someone quote the text that leads them to believe the creatures can't act fully as soon as they are summoned?

[Fax Celestis]

Summoning Mastery (Sp)

Starting at 1st level, a master summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 5 + his Charisma modifier. The summoner can use this ability when his eidolon is summoned. Only one summon monster spell may be in effect while the eidolon is summoned. If the summoner’s eidolon is not summoned, the number of creatures that can be summoned with this ability is only limited by its uses per day. This ability otherwise functions as the summoner’s normal summon monster I ability. Other than these restrictions, there is no limit to how many summon monster or gate spells the summoner can have active at one time.

This ability replaces the summoner’s normal summon monster I ability and shield ally.
...so I'm not sure how he's getting four eagles (unless he maxes that d3 roll every time, in which case you might need to talk to him about being a dirty cheater).

Furthermore, the eagles in question (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/eagle/summoned-creature-eagle) have a ridiculously low number of HP and attacks/saves. 7HP and 3 attacks at +3 does not a melee monster make (even +4 with a bard backup doesn't make them very good).

Anything that has reach (such as, say, a dude with a longspear--a simple weapon) will get an AoO against an eagle trying to attack him, with a moderate chance of outright killing it before it can attack (d8 damage on the spear plus STR/Power Attack/etc.). Anything wearing armor or with a high armor bonus is probably going to deflect their attacks effortlessly: full plate is +8 AC, for instance, so AC 18 (assuming Dex 10) vs an AB of +4 means they need to roll 14s or higher to hit. Alternatively, they can charge and hit on a 12, but then they only get one attack. Full plate with a heavy shield is worse: they can hit on a 16, or charge and hit on a 14, and this is even before class feature bonuses, feats, or enchantments.

Tell your DM to stop being a pansy with his monsters, basically, and make them fight more intelligently.

[mevans7]

As for the Summon Monster SLA, I can't see anything myself that would suggest they couldn't act immediately. The text of the spell says that they do act immediately when they are summoned, and there doesn't appear to be anything in the Summoner's SLA class feature that changes this. I may have missed something somewhere though, could someone quote the text that leads them to believe the creatures can't act fully as soon as they are summoned?

I agree that they can act immediately, but they're limited to an attack action, not a full-round attack.

I appreciate the advice from Reinkai and Fax. I'll bring it up with the DM and see how he wants to rule. We're level 9 now and we've pretty much been running this way from the beginning, so it would be tough to change the rules on him like that.

But you're right, if I have to spend any extra time learning his class as well just to police the game, I may as well find another group.


Anything that has reach (such as, say, a dude with a longspear--a simple weapon) will get an AoO against an eagle trying to attack him

Why would it get an AoO?

[Stux]

I agree that they can act immediately, but they're limited to an attack action, not a full-round attack.

Yes, I get that. I just don't see where you are getting it from. The spell says the act immediately, it doesn't say anything about which actions it has available that turn.

Unless you are referring to the next sentence: "It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability" This is a general description of the way the summoned creature behaves. You don't have direct, specific control of your summoned creature. You just say "Attack that guy" and the creature interprets that in its own way, to the best of its ability. That is what that sentence refers to.


Why would it get an AoO?

You get an attack of opportunity if someone enters a square you threaten and doesn't immediately attack you. If you have a reach weapon then when they enter the first square you threaten they can't attack you, so you get an AoO on them. Then they move adjacent to you and attack you.

[Fax Celestis]

Why would it get an AoO?

Because it moved out of a threatened square. Not only do creatures threaten in three dimensions, a reach weapon allows them to threaten further spaces away, which means that the Small eagle needs to move through in order to attack its target. Large and larger creatures automatically have a larger threatened area (due to their size and their natural reach), and as such if your summoner tried this tactic on, say, an ogre (CR 3), the ogre would probably knock the majority of the eagles out of the air effortlessly (greatclub of 2d8+7 is minimum 9 damage, enough to kill an eagle, and his AB +7 means he hits the eagle's AC 14 on a 7 or higher).

[mevans7]

Yes, I get that. I just don't see where you are getting it from. The spell says the act immediately, it doesn't say anything about which actions it has available that turn.

Unless you are referring to the next sentence: "It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability" This is a general description of the way the summoned creature behaves. You don't have direct, specific control of your summoned creature. You just say "Attack that guy" and the creature interprets that in its own way, to the best of its ability. That is what that sentence refers to.

I see what you're saying. The only support I can find is from this post. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215039)



You get an attack of opportunity if someone enters a square you threaten and doesn't immediately attack you. If you have a reach weapon then when they enter the first square you threaten they can't attack you, so you get an AoO on them. Then they move adjacent to you and attack you.

It's been my understanding (but what do I know, I'm just a silly archer) that reach weapons only threaten the squares 10' out, but not the squares adjacent to the wielder. Typically, he just summons whatever (usually a Babau) directly behind whatever is smacking our Fighter, and it attacks immediately. So, in the adjacent square. I see why it would get an AoO if it had to move in, but typically they just appear basically on top of whatever we're fighting.

[Psyren]

Note that there is a disclaimer on Master Summoner because they were aware of how many actions it would give to one player to resolve. It could be that others at the table or even the DM are finding it as tedious as you do to wait for this guy to do his thing and just aren't speaking up. So let the group know your concerns and point out the solutions given in Ultimate Magic, such as the player having to decide what his creatures will do ahead of time or give control of some of them to the other players.

[skyth]

I couldn't find anything in the Summoner Summon Monsters ability that limits the summoned creature to only a standard action (Unlike the 3.5 equivalent). Barring a specific exception, the creatures should be able to do a full round action.

[jaydubs]

I see what you're saying. The only support I can find is from this post. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215039)


That post seems to be talking about wizards with Rapid Summoning, as found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#rapidSummoning).

I don't know if the Master Summoner has a similar limitation listed somewhere, but I did not find it in the description.

[Stux]

I see what you're saying. The only support I can find is from this post. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215039)

That was a reference to the Rapid Summoning feat from 3.5, which let you summon as a standard action, but imposed a restriction on the actions of the summoned creatures when they were first summoned. The Summoner has no such restrictions.

[Fax Celestis]

It's been my understanding (but what do I know, I'm just a silly archer) that reach weapons only threaten the squares 10' out, but not the squares adjacent to the wielder. Typically, he just summons whatever (usually a Babau) directly behind whatever is smacking our Fighter, and it attacks immediately. So, in the adjacent square. I see why it would get an AoO if it had to move in, but typically they just appear basically on top of whatever we're fighting.

I see. Well, still, the bog-standard ogre still threatens adjacent with his greatclub, has AC 17 (which means the eagles hit on a 13 or higher, or 35% of the time), and has 30 HP (which means he can take 5 max-rolled hits from the eagles before falling). Four eagles with 3 attacks each is 12 attacks, hitting 35% of the time means on average 4 land, dealing on average 4.5 damage each time, for a grand total of 18 points. Our exemplary ogre still has 12 HP, and he still has buddies (A standard CR 3 encounter is one ogre, but a party is expected to deal with encounters of total CR up to 3 points higher in typical combats, so lets call it a CR 6 encounter, for three ogres) who are completely unscathed. Those are averages, of course: in my experience, hitting on 13+ means a lot of whiffing, especially at low levels.

EDIT: Note that also assumes he maxes his eagle summoning roll. More typically, he'll only summon 3, for 9 attacks, 35% meaning 3 land, for an average of 13 damage, giving our ogre 17 HP remaining.

[Stux]

It's been my understanding (but what do I know, I'm just a silly archer) that reach weapons only threaten the squares 10' out, but not the squares adjacent to the wielder. Typically, he just summons whatever (usually a Babau) directly behind whatever is smacking our Fighter, and it attacks immediately. So, in the adjacent square. I see why it would get an AoO if it had to move in, but typically they just appear basically on top of whatever we're fighting.

Ah ok then, that would bypass it yes. If the enemy knows this guy is a summoner then they could ready an attack for when the monster appears.

[mevans7]

I see. Well, still, the bog-standard ogre still threatens adjacent with his greatclub, has AC 17 (which means the eagles hit on a 13 or higher, or 35% of the time), and has 30 HP (which means he can take 5 max-rolled hits from the eagles before falling). Four eagles with 3 attacks each is 12 attacks, hitting 35% of the time means on average 4 land, dealing on average 4.5 damage each time, for a grand total of 18 points. Our exemplary ogre still has 12 HP, and he still has buddies (A standard CR 3 encounter is one ogre, but a party is expected to deal with encounters of total CR up to 3 points higher in typical combats, so lets call it a CR 6 encounter, for three ogres) who are completely unscathed. Those are averages, of course: in my experience, hitting on 13+ means a lot of whiffing, especially at low levels.

Well I will admit that at no point have I ever felt like I was in a lot of danger from our encounters. Everything has seemed a bit underwhelming So you guys got me thinking that it's not this summoner, but the DM just not throwing enough at us. Also, it seems that we typically only run into 1 or 2 encounters in a day. So none of our casters ever really even consider conserving spells.

I guess I'll concede the point on the summoned creatures not getting full-round attacks on the initial turn, since I can't seem to find anything that mentions master summoners specifically.

[Stux]

A well played, optimised Summoner can seriously break apart the action economy. He can do so much in his turn, deal with so many different threats, and this is only level 3. As such I think your DM should be designing encounters with a CR as if your party size was larger.

[Fax Celestis]

Well I will admit that at no point have I ever felt like I was in a lot of danger from our encounters. Everything has seemed a bit underwhelming So you guys got me thinking that it's not this summoner, but the DM just not throwing enough at us. Also, it seems that we typically only run into 1 or 2 encounters in a day. So none of our casters ever really even consider conserving spells.

It sounds like that, yes. Tell your DM to man up.

[mevans7]

A well played, optimised Summoner can seriously break apart the action economy. He can do so much in his turn, deal with so many different threats, and this is only level 3. As such I think your DM should be designing encounters with a CR as if your party size was larger.

Were all level 9 now, and yeah, it hasn't really scaled up much. I feel like most people in the group have a lot of player knowledge and know the DM rules, but havn't spent much time researching how to really build encounters that challenge players. Right now there's usually 6 PCs, and we rotate DMs. Two of our characters have leadership. Its kind of a chore. Anyway, I've been wanting to DM and I've been reading up. With so many people, we should add (I think) +2 to the APL, so APL 11, which would mean we should be taking on CR14 encounters, and probably multiples per day to maybe wear us down. Then when we get a chance to rest, it actually feels like a relief.

[Psyren]

Show your GM this guide. (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pxiv?GMs-Guide-to-Creating-Challenging-Encounters) (Or read through it yourself, in preparation for your turn at the helm.)

[Stux]

Were all level 9 now, and yeah, it hasn't really scaled up much. I feel like most people in the group have a lot of player knowledge and know the DM rules, but havn't spent much time researching how to really build encounters that challenge players. Right now there's usually 6 PCs, and we rotate DMs. Two of our characters have leadership. Its kind of a chore. Anyway, I've been wanting to DM and I've been reading up. With so many people, we should add (I think) +2 to the APL, so APL 11, which would mean we should be taking on CR14 encounters, and probably multiples per day to maybe wear us down. Then when we get a chance to rest, it actually feels like a relief.

Wow... 6 PCs including a Master Summoner + Cohorts and Followers? It must take a full session to do 1 round of combat!

Yes, it sounds like some more attrition is in order to give the party a challenge. But then I am a big fan of attrition based campaigns!

[mevans7]

Show your GM this guide. (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pxiv?GMs-Guide-to-Creating-Challenging-Encounters) (Or read through it yourself, in preparation for your turn at the helm.)
Thanks Psyren. You know whats gonna happen right? The first time I DM for these guys I'm going to end up killing them all. Not really sure if I'd feel bad. I like the idea of the Linear Guild and what he says about Boss monsters. I'd actually come to the same conclusions on my own recently. We just take so many actions that everything dead by the time we've finished 2 rounds. My biggest complaint is that, we really can't do anything cool because everythings already dead.

[Zrak]

I see what you're saying. The only support I can find is from this post. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215039)
That's from 3.5, though, not Pathfinder. I think the RAW answer is that they get a full-round action (since nothing says they don't or that being summoned uses any kind of action on the creature's part). Also, creatures summoned summoned as a standard action get a full round in PFS, if I recall. PFS is really just a particularly common set of houserules, but still, it's some form of precedent.

Generally, I'd say it's ambiguous enough that it comes down to an individual DM's ruling. I think the bigger problem is the difficulty and type of encounters the DM is throwing at you.

Also are the eagles getting flanking bonuses for their positioning? That would make them considerably more effective (even 50% chance to hit on Uggxample the Ogre). Checking out the flanking rules to see which eagles should actually be getting a flanking bonus might help, at least in some situations; I've found a lot of groups tend to be more liberal with flanking than the rules are.

Also, a master summoner and two PCs with leadership? The enemies are probably dying of old age waiting for their initiative to come up again. :smalltongue:

[nedz]

How are the Eagles getting a full round of attacks ?

Don't they have to move to avoid falling out of the sky ?

Or are they landing ?

[Psyren]

The goal of that guide is to help you hit the sweet spot, where a fight is challenging but you're not massacring the players with unwinnable odds. And the key to that is mooks, mooks, mooks to eat up their actions.

Note though that a Master Summoner is a special case. (Well, Summoners in general really.) Don't be afraid to dismiss or dispel some of his pets during a particularly hard fight.

[mevans7]

Yeah, I agree. I think the main DM is avoiding that because we've already got so much going on. I've linked him to the Combat Manager page and everything, trying to help as much as I can.

[Zrak]

Summoners: Now the campaign is about fighting an army of fanatical clerics so that everyone can use scrolls of dismissal.

[Blackhawk748]

i think your group is in dire need of a dungeon crawl, send those buggers to Goblin Town and have them hack their way out, the Summoner gets to feel awesome, as his creatures will probably be the rearguard, and everyone else gets to stomp goblins.

[Psyren]

A dungeon has the added advantage of being tight quarters so he's unlikely to clog the battlefield with critters. (Well, he can, but they won't have the same advantages they did before and can easily hinder his allies.)

[mevans7]

i think your group is in dire need of a dungeon crawl, send those buggers to Goblin Town and have them hack their way out, the Summoner gets to feel awesome, as his creatures will probably be the rearguard, and everyone else gets to stomp goblins.

I like this idea, and again, its something I've expressed to the DM multiple times. I'm going to design something like this for when I take the reigns.

Oh, you want to stop half way and set up a camp? IN the dungeon? Sure, you can do that, but hey, who knows what could happen...

[Spore]

Yeah, I agree. I think the main DM is avoiding that because we've already got so much going on. I've linked him to the Combat Manager page and everything, trying to help as much as I can.

The Thing is: If the Master Summoner runs out of uses of his daily summons, then he feels a dire case of minute 16 of the 15 minute adventuring day.

Then he needs 4-5 rounds to buff up his eidolon to be comparable to a lowly optimized fighter. Also his concept is very prone to AE blasts. Burning Hands, Fireball, Flaming Sphere, you name it. Even Dispel Magic works as AE in that regard.

[Blackhawk748]

I highly recommend making a "roving monster" chart for when they go into the dungeon. Personally i like large cave complexes interspersed with submerged ruins, i also recommend mapping the place out on some graph paper

[CombatOwl]

It's been my understanding (but what do I know, I'm just a silly archer) that reach weapons only threaten the squares 10' out, but not the squares adjacent to the wielder. Typically, he just summons whatever (usually a Babau) directly behind whatever is smacking our Fighter, and it attacks immediately. So, in the adjacent square. I see why it would get an AoO if it had to move in, but typically they just appear basically on top of whatever we're fighting.

You do, however, threaten with unarmed attacks on adjacent squares if you have improved unarmed strike, or wear a cestus, or use a gauntlet. As per the FAQ, characters can free one hand on a two-handed weapon as a free action, and return it to the weapon as a free action--meaning that you still threaten with unarmed attacks (if you are able to do so normally).

Incidentally, this also holds true for archers, which is why archers ought to have a cestus.

[Fax Celestis]

How are the Eagles getting a full round of attacks ?

Don't they have to move to avoid falling out of the sky ?

Or are they landing ?

Excellent point. Show your DM the section about minimum forward movement to avoid stalling.

[Greenish]

You do, however, threaten with unarmed attacks on adjacent squares if you have improved unarmed strike, or wear a cestus, or use a gauntlet. As per the FAQ, characters can free one hand on a two-handed weapon as a free action, and return it to the weapon as a free action--meaning that you still threaten with unarmed attacks (if you are able to do so normally).But if you have a reach weapon, you'd want to hold it with both hands to threaten at reach. I guess this comes down to the old "can free actions be taken out of turn" question.

Of course, the solution is armour spikes.

[Lord Vukodlak]

How are the Eagles getting a full round of attacks ?

Don't they have to move to avoid falling out of the sky ?

Or are they landing ?

Excellent point. Show your DM the section about minimum forward movement to avoid stalling.

They rolled a 7 on there flight check. In PF the ability to hover in place is determined by a skill check(flight) not by a maneuverability rating. Though a high maneuverability rating makes things easier.


The Thing is: If the Master Summoner runs out of uses of his daily summons, then he feels a dire case of minute 16 of the 15 minute adventuring day.


That can take some time The master summoner archtype gets Summon Monster 5+cha mod a day and they all last minutes per level.

[Blackhawk748]

however his summons are weak, so a well placed fireball will make him need to resummon his minions. also ive found throwing hoards of mooks helps to ease this kind of problem, just be sure that they are led by a big scary thing. So for goblins have them led by a troll or an ogre, preferably with a few lvls of Barbarian, makes a good mid crawl boss

[JHShadon]

I have a solution, summoned monsters gain a template, the template would be celestial if he's good, Entropic if he's chaotic, Fiendish if he's evil, and Resolute if he's Lawful, which I'm pretty sure it makes them part of the chosen alignment so if an enemy spellcaster casts a communal Protection from Alignment (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/protection-from-evil) spell (the Reach Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/reach-spell-metamagic) metamagic makes it a little easier) he/she can make a group of mooks immune to being attacked by those summoned monsters.

[Spore]

Resolute and Entropic templates are not a thing for summons (sadly).

[Phelix-Mu]

Totally PF ignorant here, but which part of the rules did they change to allow the eagle to make full attacks. Looking at the 3.5 rules, the eagle must move at half speed each round to maintain flight, and can't hover (average). This, to me, seems to preclude the ability to make a full attack action, since it lacks a mechanism to allow both full attack and a move greater than a 5' step (glide?).

I'm curious, because it always seemed like low-level aerial combat in D&D was terribly simulated. With magic (or creatures with higher maneuverability) it all starts to work smoothly, but for realistic creatures, not so much.

Not that I think eagles would ever make good combatants against things that are prepared for combat. While they can claw and bite, those actions are usually made at the expense of flying (in real life).

[Axinian]

The goal of that guide is to help you hit the sweet spot, where a fight is challenging but you're not massacring the players with unwinnable odds. And the key to that is mooks, mooks, mooks to eat up their actions.


It is a good guide, and I came to the same conclusions he did and know they're pretty spot on through experience. The only problem that isn't really addressed is how to avoid "XP bloat" from adding mooks and such. Yeah you can weaken the strong monster but that can make the fight less satisfying, and some times you need to add more monsters than the numbers predict to make the fight interesting. The problem being that when this happens at all frequently, the PCs will up faster, which means less encounters if you want to keep them at a slower rate. The only solution I see to that is to use the slow advancement track.

Then again, I'm not even sure why I'm asking this question since my group operates on the "you level up when the GM says you do" style rather than tracking XP.

---

Concerning the OPs problem, I echo the sentiment that these eagles should not be nearly as effective as you describe them. The Summoner in general, though, is hard to balance for, since their whole schtick is breaking the action economy. As others have said, the DM needs to step up encounters, and as such also just increase the number of monsters there are, tip the economy in the monsters' favor again.

Of course, with this many summons running around you could run into the XP bloat problem I mentioned.

[Psyren]

The beauty of Pathfinder is that XP is only ever used for leveling, so even if you're actually tracking it instead of leveling up ad-hoc, you can simply keep the amounts the PCs would get constant without altering anything. Or bump them over to a slower track. Or normalize it by giving them slightly more for the challenging fights, and slightly less for the easier ones. There's a variety of options.

[avr]

Totally PF ignorant here, but which part of the rules did they change to allow the eagle to make full attacks. Looking at the 3.5 rules, the eagle must move at half speed each round to maintain flight, and can't hover (average). This, to me, seems to preclude the ability to make a full attack action, since it lacks a mechanism to allow both full attack and a move greater than a 5' step (glide?).

I'm curious, because it always seemed like low-level aerial combat in D&D was terribly simulated. With magic (or creatures with higher maneuverability) it all starts to work smoothly, but for realistic creatures, not so much.
In PF, hovering is a DC 15 Fly (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/fly) skill check. Eagles have a +8 Fly, and while attacking an ogre is probably not a situation where they can take 10 so they should fail and take AoOs 30% of the time.

The monster description doesn't say they can't make a full attack while standing at shin-level but IMO this is something that should be ruled. Unless the enemy is Achilles perhaps.

[mevans7]

In PF, hovering is a DC 15 Fly (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/fly) skill check. Eagles have a +8 Fly, and while attacking an ogre is probably not a situation where they can take 10 so they should fail and take AoOs 30% of the time.

The monster description doesn't say they can't make a full attack while standing at shin-level but IMO this is something that should be ruled. Unless the enemy is Achilles perhaps.

Good point about the fly check. Thats something I hadn't considered, though at this level it only applies to a strict minority of his summons, it's still helpful to know. I'm absolutely certain he's never made a fly check to hover for any of his flying summons.

[Stux]

If they appear next to the enemy there is no need to fly though. Even if it might seem a little ridiculous there is no reason an eagle can't attack from the ground.

[SassyQuatch]

If they appear next to the enemy there is no need to fly though. Even if it might seem a little ridiculous there is no reason an eagle can't attack from the ground.
Those vicious shin biters.

[jaydubs]

It's no more ridiculous than halflings fighting ogres. Unless some of you really believe that small characters should only be able to standard attack large creatures? :smalltongue:

[avr]

Well, when they're not flying, eagles generally need their legs just to stand up. They'd have difficulty attacking anything above the level of a big toe. They wouldn't have the force behind the attack which they get while flying either.

It's not just a problem because they're small, it's a problem for them because they're not really designed to attack without flying.

[jaydubs]

If you don't think an eagle can fight while it's not in flight, I suggest you search "eagle attacks wolf" on youtube. It shows a Mongolian hunting practice using golden eagles to hunt wolves. The video includes footage of the eagle still fighting with the wolf as it rolls on the ground.

Of course, eagles can hit harder if they're attacking from the air. But that's why the fly entry (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Fly) includes dive attacks. Charging from midair can give double damage to a claw or talon attack.

Eagles are indeed the badass mofo descendents of dinosaurs.

[Feint's End]

But if you have a reach weapon, you'd want to hold it with both hands to threaten at reach. I guess this comes down to the old "can free actions be taken out of turn" question.

the question is obsolete in this case. Unarmed Attacks can use any part of your body not just hands -> Also the reason why you can TWF with a two handed weapon and unarmed attacks.

Of course Armor Spikes are another way of solving the problem.

And also free actions can't be taken out of turn by RAW (a reasonable dm might allow it for some things though like dropping a weapon). If the action can be taken out of turn it's described in the action (see speaking).

"You can perform one or more free actions during your turn." from the Rules Compendium

[Fax Celestis]

It's no more ridiculous than halflings fighting ogres. Unless some of you really believe that small characters should only be able to standard attack large creatures? :smalltongue:

Different. Half lungs don't generally fight with their feet.

[Greenish]

the question is obsolete in this case. Unarmed Attacks can use any part of your body not just hands -> Also the reason why you can TWF with a two handed weapon and unarmed attacks.Oh, right, Cestus is IUS in simple weapon form. I was thinking you'd actually hit people with it (like with spiked gauntlets that often get cited in similar occasions).