Half-dragon stonechild

[Particle_Man]

Is it possible (albeit suboptimal) to be one? If so, would it be an outsider or a dragon?

[Jormengand]

Yes, it would be a dragon.


"Half-dragon" is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).
The creature’s type changes to dragon.

[Red Fel]

A Stonechild is an Outsider (Earth, Extraplanar), meaning that it is (1) living, and (2) corporeal. Thus, it can have the Half-Dragon template applied to it, because (1) the template may be applied to any living, corporeal creature, and (2) seriously, dragons will breed with anything that moves.

And as Jorm noted, its type would change to Dragon.

As an aside, that would be a huge investment of levels, because Stonechild is either LA 4 and 2 RHD or 6 levels of Monster Class, while Half-Dragon is LA +3. You're looking at some hefty setbacks for such a character.

[Jormengand]

seriously, dragons will breed with anything that moves and has a body.

Living corporeal creature. :smallwink:

[Particle_Man]

Yeah, on reflection I might go with Stonechild with Ranger 3 then Horizon Walker and use the dimension door + boots of levitation to "sorta" fly when I have to. Or maybe get some wings grafted onto me later on? Then take 1-2 levels of fighter for the last 1-2 pre-epic (depends on whether the DM lets me buy off LA +4 to LA +3 at level 14) because, hey, why not.

[cakellene]

I thought Outsider type was higher on scale than Dragon type and didn't get changed, regardless of what template says.

[Red Fel]

Yeah, on reflection I might go with Stonechild with Ranger 3 then Horizon Walker and use the dimension door + boots of levitation to "sorta" fly when I have to. Or maybe get some wings grafted onto me later on? Then take 1-2 levels of fighter for the last 1-2 pre-epic (depends on whether the DM lets me buy off LA +4 to LA +3 at level 14) because, hey, why not.

Or, if you really want wings, just go Dragonborn and get them for free (unless you're evil).

[Metahuman1]

I may be in error, but I believe stone child is large and as a result, would qualify for wings as a half dragon.

[Marnath]

I thought Outsider type was higher on scale than Dragon type and didn't get changed, regardless of what template says.

Yeah. Once you're an outsider, the only type change you can undergo is undead or construct.


I may be in error, but I believe stone child is large and as a result, would qualify for wings as a half dragon.

Stone-child is medium.

[Metahuman1]

Huh, weird, always though they were Large.

Well, in that case, go grab the party Wizard a Scroll of Heroics, and get him to drop it on you several times, then get a higher level caster to Dark Chaos Shuffle or a Psion to Psionic Reformation those feats into the dragons wing line form Races of the Dragon. Boom, done.

[Particle_Man]

Or, if you really want wings, just go Dragonborn and get them for free (unless you're evil).

I thought only humanoids could become dragonborn, not outsiders.

[TuggyNE]

Yeah. Once you're an outsider, the only type change you can undergo is undead or construct.

The 3.0 type pyramid no longer applies to anything. Individual templates set which type changes are possible, so it works.

[Marnath]

The 3.0 type pyramid no longer applies to anything. Individual templates set which type changes are possible, so it works.

Do you have any proof for that? Because that isn't how the revision rules work. Unless they specifically wrote a new rule for it, that one still stands.

[cakellene]

Which book has the rules about type pyramid?

[Karnith]

Which book has the rules about type pyramid?
It's in Savage Species, pp. 142-143.

Do you have any proof for that? Because that isn't how the revision rules work. Unless they specifically wrote a new rule for it, that one still stands.
The type pyramid just kinda doesn't work for several reasons. First, specific trumps general means that when a template says that it changes a creature's type, it does so, regardless of general rules to the contrary. Second, due to primary source rules the Monster Manual is explicitly the primary source for templates, and hence you use Monster Manual template rules when another source disagrees with them (i.e. when Savage Species says that you use the type pyramid instead of doing what the templates actually say to do). Third, we know that WotC didn't use the type pyramid in 3.5, as to the best of my knowledge nothing made after Savage Species either references or uses it (and even Savage Species ignores it; see e.g. the Incarnate Construct template), so there's good reason to believe that removing it is one of the "minor adjustments" necessary to use 3.0 content in a 3.5 game.

[Marnath]

It's in Savage Species, pp. 142-143.

The type pyramid just kinda doesn't work for several reasons. First, specific trumps general means that when a template says that it changes a creature's type, it does so, regardless of general rules to the contrary. Second, due to primary source rules the Monster Manual is explicitly the primary source for templates, and hence you use Monster Manual template rules when another source disagrees with them (i.e. when Savage Species says that you use the type pyramid instead of doing what the templates say). Third, we know that WotC didn't use the type pyramid in 3.5, as nothing made after Savage Species either references it or uses those rules (and even Savage Species ignores it; see e.g. the Incarnate Construct template), so there's good reason to believe that removing it is one of the "minor adjustments" necessary to use 3.0 content in a 3.5 game.

I'd say there's equal evidence that it still stands.* At least enough that you can't fairly declare it to be inapplicable like you did. :smalltongue:

*By which I mean that it was never officially over-turned and it makes a compelling case in situations where the DM has to make a ruling one way or the other. Like this one, apparently.

[Red Fel]

I'd say there's equal evidence that it still stands.* At least enough that you can't fairly declare it to be inapplicable like you did. :smalltongue:

*By which I mean that it was never officially over-turned and it makes a compelling case in situations where the DM has to make a ruling one way or the other. Like this one, apparently.

Even if you accept that the type pyramid has not been overruled (which I do not, but for sake of argument), the rule that specific trumps general still applies.

General: Type pyramid.

Specific: The language of the Half-Dragon template.

The template language explicitly, and more specifically, changes the base creature's type. The specific language trumps the general rule that certain bases do not change type. Hence, become a Dragon.


I thought only humanoids could become dragonborn, not outsiders.

With regard to Dragonborn, the language of Rite of Rebirth section only explicitly requires "the supplicant must be non-evil and have an Intelligence score of at least 3." (RotD p. 8, see also web article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b).) Hence, even an Outsider could become Dragonborn, if non-evil. Admittedly, the language is vague, and heavily leans towards humanoids, so a DM might rule otherwise. Even if you could take Dragonborn, however, you would keep your subtypes and count as an Outsider.

[cakellene]

I would say the type pyramid is specific not general. General rule is you follow type changes by template, and specific would be that you don't make change if it results in a move down the pyramid.

[Red Fel]

I would say the type pyramid is specific not general. General rule is you follow type changes by template, and specific would be that you don't make change if it results in a move down the pyramid.

Actually, looking at p. 142 of Savage Species, I retract my statement. It says, specifically, "You can apply the half-dragon template to an earth elemental, for instance, and it remains an elemental." I assume that applies to Outsiders as well.

[Urpriest]

It's an update-by-omission situation. ECL rules were included in Core 3.5, which means Core 3.5 is the updated form of Savage Species, so content not carried over is intentionally left out.

[ShurikVch]

Living corporeal creature. :smallwink:
Anything is corporeal if you have Trait Removal... :smalltongue:

[cakellene]

Anything is corporeal if you have Trait Removal... :smalltongue:

Not sure I follow.

[ShurikVch]

Not sure I follow.
Spell Trait Removal:

You temporarily remove one extraordinary or supernatural ability of your choice from the target creature.
Remove incorporeality, then... :smallwink:

[Grim Portent]

Spell Trait Removal:

Remove incorporeality, then... :smallwink:

I doubt even a dragon would go that far for an unusual experience. :smalltongue:

[Metahuman1]

I doubt even a dragon would go that far for an unusual experience. :smalltongue:

Oh, I don't know, once you've been around for X number of Centuries I'd say it's not impossible for one to be willing to go that far just to keep injecting a touch of variety. :smallbiggrin: