how much gold would A concert make in DND

[Deca4531]

so let's say you had the ability to put on a major concert in some city somewhere in the DND universe.you have the ability to create a stage much like a modern one, you have the spells and magic items to do a vast variety of light shows and pyrotechnics. You have the perform ability of a superstar and a crew to assist you. How much money do you think you could make with such an event, figuring you could probably get a crowd anywhere of 2000 to 4000. I personally don't think 10 gold admission fee would be much, but I don't think my DM would allow me to make 20000 or 40000 that easily. What are your thoughts on this concept.

[Callin]

Just remember. Its not you getting all that money.You have to pay for the arena, the stage crew, the special effects, promoters, ect ect ect.

I would think you would only see maybe 2gold out of every 10.

[Deca4531]

Just remember. Its not you getting all that money.You have to pay for the arena, the stage crew, the special effects, promoters, ect ect ect.

I would think you would only see maybe 2gold out of every 10.

actually most of those things I can take care of on my own. I have the ability to create a stage magically, there wouldn't be much of a stage crew and I would be performing the special effects (or my familuar/cohort). As far as promoters go, word of mouth goes a long way. Especially when you're already pretty famous.on top of that the leadership feat helps with a lot.

[Stux]

I personally don't think 10 gold admission fee would be much.

I don't think there is any chance of the average commoner being able to afford that. The general unskilled labourer (probably the majority of the population) earns 1 silver piece per day. That means this concert is 100 days wages for most people. Can you imagine ever even considering spending that kind of money on a gig?

Obviously if you are putting on this gig in a major city and are attempting to attract higher born crowds, nobles and such, then 10 gold might be reasonable. But whether there would be enough such people within a given location to attract the sizes of audience you are talking about is another matter.

[Fax Celestis]

The Perform skill has rules for making money with it. Multiply those values by your audience size, have your backup members Aid Another the lead's Perform check, and remove expenses (venue rental and staffing, security staffing, equipment and technical crew, etc). Even people with Leadership still need to pay their minions, by the way: they're not mindless fanatics--you need a Thrallherd for that.

[Deca4531]

The Perform skill has rules for making money with it. Multiply those values by your audience size, have your backup members Aid Another the lead's Perform check, and remove expenses (venue rental and staffing, security staffing, equipment and technical crew, etc). Even people with Leadership still need to pay their minions, by the way: they're not mindless fanatics--you need a Thrallherd for that.

I have been to many a concert where "mindless fanattic" fits perfectly. And yes 10 gold might be a little high, but when you consider what some equipment costs and what you would probably pay for a ticket today I would say in today's age you could choose between the equivalent of a great sword or a ticket to a slayer concert. plus most City citizens aren't farmers and sheep herders they tend to make a little more than the average commoner.

[Trasilor]

I think it would be less about notoriety and more about disposable income. Most people in D&D universe are very poor compared to today's standards and don't have much in the way of disposable income.

Also, lots of logistical barriers to overcome
- A venue that is designed to prevent non-payers from getting the experience (i.e an indoor stadium).
- A population big enough to support an audience of 30,000 to 50,000 people (remember, people are not going to travel lots of miles b/c travelling is expensive and dangerous - especially at night when special effects are best).

Better bet would be to do a small private concert for the local aristocracy or wealthy merchants. You could even give one of them the privilege of hosting it in their house. Charge like 250gp per person - remember it's exclusive.

[Stux]

plus most City citizens aren't farmers and sheep herders they tend to make a little more than the average commoner.

True enough, but I would also say that most citizens probably couldn't afford a decent, properly made sword. At least without saving up for a long time.

[Emperor Tippy]

It's way more than "a little high".

Good food for a day costs 5 SP. In today's dollars you are looking at fifty to one hundred and fifty bucks.

Now what do you pay for a concert? Because unless you are trying to claim that you regularly pay a thousand dollars for a concert ticket, your numbers are seriously off.

[Deca4531]

I think it would be less about notoriety and more about disposable income. Most people in D&D universe are very poor compared to today's standards and don't have much in the way of disposable income.

Also, lots of logistical barriers to overcome
- A venue that is designed to prevent non-payers from getting the experience (i.e an indoor stadium).
- A population big enough to support an audience of 30,000 to 50,000 people (remember, people are not going to travel lots of miles b/c travelling is expensive and dangerous - especially at night when special effects are best).

Better bet would be to do a small private concert for the local aristocracy or wealthy merchants. You could even give one of them the privilege of hosting it in their house. Charge like 250gp per person - remember it's exclusive.

that's a really good idea, I hadn't thought of that.

and just as a side note if you consider the audience to already be friendly, and I don't see why anyone with a lower attitude would bother to show up, it would only take a performance check of 60 to make them considered fanatics. And according to the perform skill a fanatic would gladly throw away his life for me or take on a horde of charging and Dragons without a second thought, because I'm just that awesome. So I'm willing to bet I can squeeze a bit more out of such fans.

[Starmage21]

Lets consider our audience to be 10,000 folks. The average commoner makes ~12gp a year. That breaks down to 10sp/month. Charging them even 1 SP is a significant portion of their monthly income.
Assuming that you could get away with 1sp and not a couple coppers you get
10,000 people x .1GP = 1K gp revenue. Subtract all your costs from that.

[Deca4531]

It's way more than "a little high".

Good food for a day costs 5 SP. In today's dollars you are looking at fifty to one hundred and fifty bucks.

Now what do you pay for a concert? Because unless you are trying to claim that you regularly pay a thousand dollars for a concert ticket, your numbers are seriously off.

well if you consider 5 silver pieces is a good day's worth of food, that's about $20 in today's economy. So you figure yes you could spend anywhere from 80 to 100 dollars for a concert ticket then you multiply that 5 silver by 5and end up with about 2.5 gold per ticket and let's say a VIP pass at twice that amount. So yes 10 gold is a little high

[Starmage21]

well if you consider 5 silver pieces is a good day's worth of food, that's about $20 in today's economy. So you figure yes you could spend anywhere from 80 to 100 dollars for a concert ticket then you multiply that 5 silver by 5and end up with about 2.5 gold per ticket and let's say a VIP pass at twice that amount. So yes 10 gold is a little high

5sp is a day's worth of restaurant eating I think. Not a day's worth of grocery-store-prepared-it-yourself eating.

[Fax Celestis]

I have been to many a concert where "mindless fanattic" fits perfectly....for the attendees, sure. Not for the staff.

[Telonius]

What we think of as a "concert" is a relatively recent invention. Most of the concerts that happened up to the 20th century were elites-only, and touring was rare. (Al Jolson is the name that really comes to mind for popularizing it, but there were probably others doing similar things or on a smaller scale). This was mainly because, as others have mentioned, the poor folks were really poor. The musicians (and artists, etc) followed the money, and that usually meant getting a wealthy patron. If you're having a concert where there are going to be large numbers of the "unwashed rabble," most of the nobles probably aren't going to want to participate unless you have special box seating, or backstage passes, or something similar.

To give a bit of a real-world comparison, the Globe Theater (of Shakespeare fame) charged 1 penny (http://www.william-shakespeare.info/william-shakespeare-globe-theatre.htm) to stand, another penny to sit in the first gallery, and another to sit in the second gallery. If the Bard was only pulling in that much, you probably wouldn't expect much more.

[Stux]

To get more accurate numbers we'd really need to know about the economics and prosperity of the region you are holding this concert in.

I would agree with the previous poster about putting on an exclusive smaller concert for aristocrats who might part with 100 or more GP to see a good magic show. Not to mention your costs would be lower, smaller venue and all.

[Trasilor]

I am curious why everyone assumes everyone is a commoner?

In any economy, people become specialists (aka experts). I would not consider the following commoners:

Acrobat, Apothecarist, Architect, Armorer, Artist, Astrologer, Baker, Barrister, Bookbinder, Bowyer, Brewer, Candlemaker, Carpenter, Cartographer, Clothier, Cook, Dyer, Engineer, Engraver, Farmer, Fisherman, Forester, Fortune-Teller, Furrier, Gardener, Glassblower, Herald, Herbalist, Hunter, Innkeeper, Interpreter, Jester, Jeweler, Leatherworker, Locksmith, Mason, Merchant, Minstrel, Moneylender, Navigator, Painter, Peddler, Physician, Playwright, Potter, Sailor, Scribe, Servant, Shipwright, Shoemaker, Stonecarver, Weaver.

Obviously, this is just my opinion

[Deca4531]

...for the attendees, sure. Not for the staff.

very true, but as I stated before it doesn't take too horribly much to make someone a fanatic, and if they're already followers it gets even easier.

[hymer]

My thoughts?
You'll be lucky to make 300gp before expenses. This makes more sense than 20k or 40k, given D&D economy, and it doesn't mean the DM needs to stop putting loot in his adventures (unless you're low enough level that 300gp is a big deal). 20k is the equivalent of the income of 500 normal people in a year. You can equip well over 200 troops for 30k. 40k is all the liquid assets in a town of 1000 inhabitants.

If this is about making money, just don't do it. Make money the way the game is balanced around - adventuring. If this about playing a character who is a rock star, stop focusing on how much you earn. That'll be up to the DM to decide, to keep the game from getting thrown way off track.

But those are, of course, just my thoughts.

Edit:

well if you consider 5 silver pieces is a good day's worth of food, that's about $20 in today's economy.

You can't compare economies like that (you think you get good food for 20 $ a day, btw? :smalleek:). In our economy, food takes up a small portion of the total budget (about 1/6th if we take your 20 and compare them to an income of 44k a year). In the lives of people in D&D land, food is the biggest budget item for most of them. Those people earning 1sp per day spend all of that on poor food.

[Stux]

I am curious why everyone assumes everyone is a commoner?

In any economy, people become specialists (aka experts). I would not consider the following commoners:

...

Obviously, this is just my opinion

Agreed, and while they would be earning a little more than an unskilled labourer, I can't believe it would be enough more to spend 10 GP on a show.

Look at it this way:

A level 1 professional of some kind has 4 ranks in their profession. This means they are averaging a 14.5 on their profession check. This means they are earning 7.25 GP per week, or 1 GP per day roughly. This is a LOT more than a commoner. But 10 GP to them is still a massive amount.

Now these days we clearly have a lot more disposable income than those in an approximately medieval setting would. I would never consider spending more than a days wage on a gig, even that much it would have to be something pretty special. Normally I'd be looking at something like 1/2 of a days wage for a decent gig.

Going by this metric, the most a professional would consider spending on a really good sounding show would likely be somewhere in the region of 1 GP maximum, but most wouldn't bother unless it was more like 5 SP.

[Deca4531]

My thoughts?
You'll be lucky to make 300gp before expenses. This makes more sense than 20k or 40k, given D&D economy, and it doesn't mean the DM needs to stop putting loot in his adventures (unless you're low enough level that 300gp is a big deal). 20k is the equivalent of the income of 500 normal people in a year. You can equip well over 200 troops for 30k. 40k is all the liquid assets in a town of 1000 inhabitants.

If this is about making money, just don't do it. Make money the way the game is balanced around - adventuring. If this about playing a character who is a rock star, stop focusing on how much you earn. That'll be up to the DM to decide, to keep the game from getting thrown way off track.

But those are, of course, just my thoughts.


Not bad thoughts, I agree with much of it. This idea was more a side project for when we plan to spend a couple weeks in a city between adventures. throughout the discussion I can see that 30,000 for 40000 is a lot more then what is reasonable. But to be able to make maybe 5000 to 8000 wouldn't be asking too much I don't think.

[Deca4531]

Agreed, and while they would be earning a little more than an unskilled labourer, I can't believe it would be enough more to spend 10 GP on a show.

Look at it this way:

A level 1 professional of some kind has 4 ranks in their profession. This means they are averaging a 14.5 on their profession check. This means they are earning 7.25 GP per week, or 1 GP per day roughly. This is a LOT more than a commoner. But 10 GP to them is still a massive amount.

Now these days we clearly have a lot more disposable income than those in an approximately medieval setting would. I would never consider spending more than a days wage on a gig, even that much it would have to be something pretty special. Normally I'd be looking at something like 1/2 of a days wage for a decent gig.

Going by this metric, the most a professional would consider spending on a really good sounding show would likely be somewhere in the region of 1 GP maximum, but most wouldn't bother unless it was more like 5 SP.

while I understand your viewpoint, and it makes logical sense both mathematically and economically. But I simply can't agree that a person would pay the same amount for Chinese takeout as he would for a sting concert. I don't think 2.5 gold which is only a couple days wage is asking very much. And I know personally I don't have a great deal of "disposable income" hell I barely make my rent and I get paid 10.25/h

[XmonkTad]

Well, it is written that a high enough perform check attracts the attention of "otherworldly powers" so not all of the money has to be strictly local money. Wealthy patrons from other cities and even other planes might be showing up to shower you with riches. That's all the fluff you need to ask for getting your WBL during your down time.

[Stux]

while I understand your viewpoint, and it makes logical sense both mathematically and economically. But I simply can't agree that a person would pay the same amount for Chinese takeout as he would for a sting concert. I don't think 2.5 gold which is only a couple days wage is asking very much. And I know personally I don't have a great deal of "disposable income" hell I barely make my rent and I get paid 10.25/h

It doesn't though. The most basic food costs 1sp for a day (less if you are crafting it yourself like a commoner would). That is a 10th of a professional's daily earnings, and a tenth of the 1gp I suggested as a ticket price. I imagine a Sting ticket probably would cost somewhere in the region of 10 times the price of a decent Chinese takeaway.

2.5gp is certainly a lot more reasonable than 10gp, but I still think it would be outside the disposable income of most people. But as I say this really depends on the wealth of the region in your campaign, I'm just talking about generic default amounts.

[Slipperychicken]

You make what the perform table says you make. 3d6 gold (10.5 on average) per day at the most, which makes you disgustingly rich compared to the poor commoners making 1 silver a day for backbreaking labor. You get to eat the highest-quality meals every day, you can reasonably afford a house, and generally do anything you want, while the lower classes routinely go hungry because they can't afford food.


I personally don't think 10 gold admission fee would be much

Most people in D&D don't see gold pieces in their lives.

[sleepyphoenixx]

In a medieval society most commoners probably can't afford to leave their farms/stop working to go to a concert even if they had the money.
That cuts out a lot of potential audience.

Also, there are rules for this. Even an extraordinary performance will only earn you 3-18gp/day. That's a fortune by non-noble, non-adventurer standards.
A generous DM might bump it up to 100-200 if you have the skills and background to justify it but expecting several thousand gold is just unrealistic.

[Deca4531]

You make what the perform table says you make. 3d6 gold (10.5 on average) per day at the most, which makes you disgustingly rich compared to the poor commoners making 1 silver a day for backbreaking labor. You get to eat the highest-quality meals every day, you can reasonably afford a house, and generally do anything you want, while the lower classes routinely go hungry because they can't afford food.



Most people in D&D don't see gold pieces in their lives.

okay, let's do this the slightly less than honest way. Let's say I find a group of nobles or royalty, from indifferent its a DC 30 diplomacy to make them helpful. From helpful is a DC 50 perform check to make them fanatics. At the point of fanatics I can ask them to give me all the money they have, sign over all the land they own and even give me all of their wives and they would gladly do it and ask if there was anything more they could get me.

[Slipperychicken]

okay, let's do this the slightly less than honest way. Let's say I find a group of nobles or royalty, from indifferent its a DC 30 diplomacy to make them helpful. From helpful is a DC 50 perform check to make them fanatics. At the point of photonics I can ask them to give me all the money they have sign over all the land they own and even give me all of their wives and they would gladly do it and ask if there was anything more they could get me.

Now make a rushed Diplomacy check against your GM, to change his attitude so he doesn't throw books at you.

[Stux]

okay, let's do this the slightly less than honest way. Let's say I find a group of nobles or royalty, from indifferent its a DC 30 diplomacy to make them helpful. From helpful is a DC 50 perform check to make them fanatics. At the point of photonics I can ask them to give me all the money they have sign over all the land they own and even give me all of their wives and they would gladly do it and ask if there was anything more they could get me.

And then suddenly the DM teleports in a Balor and smacks you in the face :smallwink:

[Deca4531]

And then suddenly the DM teleports in a Balor and smacks you in the face :smallwink:

I think it might be a bit of a tight squeeze, but I might be able to make the balor my best friend :smallbiggrin:

[Stux]

I think it might be a bit of a tight squeeze, but I might be able to make the balor my best friend :smallbiggrin:

Diplomacy by RAW is just the worst, haha.

[nedz]

It depends upon the society.

Modern concerts are relatively expensive, tickets were a lot cheaper in the '80s because they were seen as a marketing exercise for Album sales.

Then we can look at the Roman period. Shows in the Colosseum etc. were put on by nobles in order to court popularity. In this kind of society you would be paid by the rich noble but you would likely be just one act in the show.

In terms of RAW: it's a Perform skill check. Now it should probably be modified by the size of the settlement but the table in the SRD just assumes a prosperous city.

[AlltheBooks]

Why are you wasting all this time and energy on making money very inefficiently? If you are going to diplomance why the show?

[Deca4531]

Why are you wasting all this time and energy on making money very inefficiently? If you are going to diplomance why the show?

that was mostly sarcasm, to show that it would take no effort and no investmentin order to fleece large amounts of money out of people . The whole point of the concert and why I wanted to pull in a decent profit was because of the amount I'm investing in it. The cost of magic items required to build a soundstage, the average cost of spell casting used during the performance that I could have sold, plus all the equipment and magic items I put into being the best performer possible. All in all I probably end up investing close to 60 or 70 thousand gold into being able to do what I do.

[Sewercop]

The Perform skill has rules for making money with it. Multiply those values by your audience size, have your backup members Aid Another the lead's Perform check, and remove expenses (venue rental and staffing, security staffing, equipment and technical crew, etc). Even people with Leadership still need to pay their minions, by the way: they're not mindless fanatics--you need a Thrallherd for that.

Routine performance (10) 1d10 Copper pieces
Enjoyable performance (15) 1d10 Silver pieces
Great performance (20) 3d10 Silver pieces
Memorable performance (25) 1d6 Gold pieces
Extraordinary performance (30) 3d6 Gold pieces
Incredible performance (DR330 p76) (40) 1d6 Platinum pieces

Legendary performance (DR330 p76) (50) 3d6 Platinum pieces:
In a prosperous city you can earn 3d6 plat a day. Your fame spreads,
people stop you in the streets wanting to be your friend.. etc etc..

You want that to garner say.. 10000 times 3d6plat? insane

Divine performance (DR330 p76) (75) You attract the attention of extraplanar creatures,Deities(you read that right), and not just good or neutral request you play for them.


that was mostly sarcasm, to show that it would take no effort and no investmentin order to fleece large amounts of money out of people . The whole point of the concert and why I wanted to pull in a decent profit was because of the amount I'm investing in it. The cost of magic items required to build a soundstage, the average cost of spell casting used during the performance that I could have sold, plus all the equipment and magic items I put into being the best performer possible. All in all I probably end up investing close to 60 or 70 thousand gold into being able to do what I do.

This is why people go bankrupt in the real world when they start up a business. They expect the returns to be way way higher.
There is no reason for you to do all that, unless you want to put on a spectacle noone could afford ala old rome style.
It was a tool to keep the masses in check.

Your check would be based on a profession artist roll, with a huge aid another bonus from say 300 backup singers,performers,etc giving you 600+ unless you minmax it. If you have 300 people that can be justified to give you aid another. All in all, that becomes around 300 to 400 gold a week depending on your minmaxery.

Unless, your gm lets you take craft : music\opera\show\play and\or let the epic use of craft to increase dc count.( i see no reason for craft to be denied usage that way)That would let you sell one show\Script for a set price. Others then can set up the show.That leads to the problem of who are willing to buy a script for a show for the price of 360 000 gold? hmmm

You remember the legendary performance dc of 75, wich attracts gods and extraplanar beings? Those can afford that.

So rock your socks off for a dc 75 perform for 3d6 plat.. Then you propose to set up the most fantastic interplnar show for a one time fee of 360k gold.

[Slipperychicken]

Divine performance (DR330 p76) (75) You attract the attention of extraplanar creatures,Deities(you read that right), and not just good or neutral request you play for them.


I interpreted that as including outcomes like "Hades shackles you to a stage and makes you play in his court forever".

[Sewercop]

That is perhaps likely if you try to earn 350k-1million gold for a gig in a setting.
I know alot of players that would walk into a lot of traps and ambushes blind based on that premise.

Getting out from there would be a cool mission

[Slipperychicken]

That is perhaps likely if you try to earn 350k-1million gold for a gig in a setting.
I know alot of players that would walk into a lot of traps and ambushes blind based on that premise.

Getting out from there would be a cool mission

All-Bard heavy metal campaign? Slowly climb your band from a garage band of level 1 nobodies to the top of the interplanar metal scene, all while navigating politics, fighting off enemy bands and their minions, earning extra money from adventuring, and struggling to avoid capture by jealous gods and demons. If they somehow survive and pull off the ultimate concert at level 21-30, they win and become the reigning Gods of Metal.

Of course, there would be at least one mission for escaping from Hell :smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

Perform gives figures for how much you earn performing. Not per person attending, per day. Whether you're presenting to a crowd of commoners who each put down a silver piece, or a small, elite audience of rich guys who plonk down a gold or platinum each to see you, you're still only making 3d6 platinum with the best check.

[Kudaku]

It really depends on how much merchandise you are pawning off on your hapless fans. Ever been to a Disney-on-Ice event? You're lucky to get away without spending anything up to and including CR-appropriate treasure drops.

[pwykersotz]

For what it's worth, I used the "Beer is 2cp" model and took the value of a gold piece to be $62.50 as a guideline. I sure wouldn't pay 10x that for a ticket, but up to twice that? Depends on my income. Certainly not if I was struggling to eat.

Granted, it always needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Or a whole saltlick. After all, by my method, a spyglass is $62,500.

[Stux]

For what it's worth, I used the "Beer is 2cp" model and took the value of a gold piece to be $62.50 as a guideline. I sure wouldn't pay 10x that for a ticket, but up to twice that? Depends on my income. Certainly not if I was struggling to eat.

Granted, it always needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Or a whole saltlick. After all, by my method, a spyglass is $62,500.

Its probably not that far off a relative value, given how much harder it would have been to craft decent lenses with the technology available, but beer being made everywhere and drunk constantly because its cleaner than water.

[Slipperychicken]

beer being made everywhere and drunk constantly because its cleaner than water.

Now I have a decent reason for Dwarves to only drink alcoholic beverages, and it explains their higher Constitution too! :smallbiggrin:

[Stux]

Now I have a decent reason for Dwarves to only drink alcoholic beverages, and it explains their higher Constitution too! :smallbiggrin:

Haha, yes! Though honestly it wouldn't have just been dwarves. In medieval times they were smart enough to realise that beer was much safer to drink than water, though of course they didn't know why. Pretty much everyone drank beer every day, they made very weak brews for everyday drinking.

EDIT:
More info for anyone interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_beer#Medieval_Europe

[Erberor]

Haha, yes! Though honestly it wouldn't have just been dwarves. In medieval times they were smart enough to realise that beer was much safer to drink than water, though of course they didn't know why. Pretty much everyone drank beer every day, they made very weak brews for everyday drinking.

EDIT:
More info for anyone interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_beer#Medieval_Europe

I think the beer thing better explains why Dwarves get +2 on saves vs posion