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Person_Man
2007-01-16, 11:58 AM
I'm starting a new campaign soon, and one of my players wants to play the party leader/face. He normally plays Rangers or Monks. He initially considered playing a Marshal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b)/Dragon Shaman or Ranger/Dread Commando (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050407b&page=6), but thinks they might be underpowered. He doesn't like Paladins because of the alignment restrictions, and generally dislikes playing spellcasters, though he's not 100% opposed to it.

The campaign starts at 9th level. All suppliments and prestige classes will be considered.

Initially I was going to suggest a Rogue, but I want to try to avoid niche duplication - and the party already has a Rogue (focusing on stealth and ranged Sneak Attacks), a Psychic Warrior/Pyrokineticist, a Sorcerer focused on blasting spells, and a Cleric.

Does anyone have an excellent Marshal or party buff build out there that has strong social Skills?

Thanks in advance for any ideas.

pestilenceawaits
2007-01-16, 12:23 PM
How about a swashbuckler. They have a good feel to them to be a party leader. pump up dex, int and chr. and you have a good leader.

Athenodorus
2007-01-16, 12:29 PM
Nothing says "I am awesome" like a bard!

Rumda
2007-01-16, 12:33 PM
yeah I like the feel of a swashbuckler party leader a good few skill points and most of the social skills as class skills, rely on int for many class features so they get more skill points and fit fluff wise into leadership roles

Person_Man
2007-01-16, 12:36 PM
Hmmm, Swash would probably work. I'll have to pick up Comp. Scoundral and see if I can buff him somehow.

Bard might be ok, though I'd have to find a good prestige class for him.

Darrin
2007-01-16, 12:54 PM
Does anyone have an excellent Marshal or party buff build out there that has strong social Skills?


Just some ideas to toss out:

I've heard a bard with a rank in every single Speak Language can be highly annoying, add Worldspeaker PrC for more fun. Anything that can consistently hit a DC 35 diplomacy check can turn any Hostile encounter into a Friendly encounter.

A Ranger with Favored Enemy: Humanoid (Human) gets to use his favored enemy bonus on Bluff and Sense Motive checks. That could be exceedingly useful if most of your NPC interactions are with humans. A Marshall/Ranger would be a good combo. Marshall gives you Skill Focus(Diplomacy), so just add Negotiator and you should be good to go.

The only PrCs that comes to mind with a decidely social bent is the Jobber and Stoneface, but from what little I remember they were exceedingly uninspiring PrCs.

Amiria
2007-01-16, 01:16 PM
The Crusader (ToB) has Diplomacy as a class skill. The Devoted Spirit discipline has healing and protection and the White Raven discipline has buffing.

Renegade Paladin
2007-01-16, 01:25 PM
Given an appropriate party, a paladin can work wonders as the party face. But if your party isn't composed of particularly heroic types, then... he can play an unorthodox paladin. :smallwink: More seriously, it has to be the right type of party to work. The range of types is wider than some think, but it doesn't work in a predominantly evil or chaotic neutral party.

Telonius
2007-01-16, 01:26 PM
Likes charisma, doesn't like casters, doesn't like Paladins... have you considered Knight? It has "respsect me" written all over it. Two possible problems: player might not like the alignment restrictions, but the penalties for breaking the code are less severe than for Paladin. Second problem, Diplomacy is not a class skill, which could be hard for a party face. If I were DM'ing, I would be perfectly fine with house-ruling a switch from Intimidate to Diplomacy as a class skill in that circumstance (knightly courtier rather than a big scary dude).

Draz74
2007-01-16, 03:56 PM
Rogue is designed to be one of the most flexible classes with the most varying interperetations. I don't think two Rogues have to feel like overlapping party roles.

A Rogue with ranged attacks, high Dex, and stealth/acrobatic/trapfinding skills will play very differently from a Rogue with high Strength and Charisma, a good old-fashioned melee attack (no TWF), and social skills. If the latter build feels weaker in any way (because he doesn't get to use Sneak Attack as often, or something), make him the one of the two rogues that specializes in Use Magic Device. Now he's at least as powerful.

I'd recommend a few levels dipped in Marshall, too. A huge boost to social skills (with the right aura), and shield proficiency, which is good because the new rogue player will feel a lot less like he's playing a rogue if he's fighting sword-and-board style (the boost to AC will be nice, since he'll be wearing light armor and not having especially high Dex).

Thomas
2007-01-16, 04:59 PM
Rogue is designed to be one of the most flexible classes with the most varying interperetations. I don't think two Rogues have to feel like overlapping party roles.

Definitely true. In fact, a rogue should focus either on dungeoneering skills (Disable Device, Listen, Open Lock, Search, Spot...) or social skills (Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Sense Motive). Trying to do both end up being poor to mediocre at everything.

Person_Man
2007-01-16, 05:22 PM
Definitely true. In fact, a rogue should focus either on dungeoneering skills (Disable Device, Listen, Open Lock, Search, Spot...) or social skills (Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Sense Motive). Trying to do both end up being poor to mediocre at everything.

Hmmm, that's an excellent point. The party will be somewhat screwed when they fight things immune to Precision damage. But having two Skill Monkey's is definitely do-able.

TheOOB
2007-01-16, 05:27 PM
If they don't mind some spellcasting ability, you can't go wrong with bard. Bard may be a very weak class in and of itself, but it's ability to buff and support other characters is unmatched, plus apart from having pretty much every social skill as a class skill, they have several abilities/spells that aid in this catagory.

Rockphed
2007-01-16, 05:41 PM
Rogue with high Strength and Charisma, a good old-fashioned melee attack (no TWF), and social skills. If the latter build feels weaker in any way (because he doesn't get to use Sneak Attack as often, or something), make him the one of the two rogues that specializes in Use Magic Device.

If he has the socialite skills, he should have bluff, which will let him feint. And Use Magic Device is Charisma based, so that should come easily.

Ikkitosen
2007-01-16, 06:18 PM
Beguiler seems perfect for that party - you have cleric, blaster, dungeoneering monkey - some enchantment/illusion magic and a heap of social skills would be great. Ok it's a caster but it's also an enhanced face character that is useful in combat.

cupkeyk
2007-01-16, 06:28 PM
Half Elf Bard with the races of destiny substitution level for level 1 but not six. Lyric Thaumaturge after level 6.

For feats, take

Melodic casting(prerequisite of Lyric thaumaturge; lets you cast spells and trigger devices without stopping your bardsong and lets you roll a perform check instead of a concentration roll),

Disguise spell, which let's you cast charm person or dominate or detect thoughts right there in front of the guy and he won't notice and it won't take a higher spell slot, it's not even a metamagic feat!!! It's also a prerequisite for Deceptive Spell, from cityscape, which let's you cast spells and designate a point in space as the emanation point; combined with the fascinate bard ability these two spells will all your spectators confounded.

Since Lyric Thaumaturge only gives you more bardic songs per day but does not net better songs: take chaos music from dragon compendium, so you are treated as four levels higher when determining bard song abilities but never higher than your hitdice.

Since many of you abilities depend on bardic music, extra music will not actually be stupid.

Stormcrow
2007-01-16, 07:19 PM
I'd advise the bard also for the crunch reasons;

The bard is a jack of all trades, uses charismas its high skill, has alot of good skills for social interaction, has access to buffing magics to help out the rest of the team and is a fairly reasonable fighter in his/her own right. The addition of bardic music also comes in handy i've allowed bards to cast spells while playing their instrument using the the sound as a verbal compontent and the fingering as a somatic. Charm Person through music :P.

For the fluff reason;

Bards are good faces for a party because second to paladins they are generally liked. Someone who is obviously a bard, and better yet a talented one can after a quick performance and a few ales assimilate quickly into even a hostile setting. They are good social infiltrators.

Draz74
2007-01-16, 07:59 PM
If he has the socialite skills, he should have bluff, which will let him feint. And Use Magic Device is Charisma based, so that should come easily.

True, though Feint is a lame option until he has enough feats (mainly Improved Feint) to back it up. Even then it's passable, but not amazing. And pure Rogues don't get that many feats. Still, eventually, yes, this will be a helpful tactic.

And you're right, UMD is more natural for the social rogue than the dungeoneering rogue anyway.

TheOOB
2007-01-16, 08:34 PM
Use Magic Device is a huge part of a bard or rogues potential power. Your really hurting yourself if you don't max it. I highly doubt a build will be so tight on skill points as to not be able affor UMD.

Deathcow
2007-01-16, 08:51 PM
I add my vote for the rogue. There actually aren't enough skill points on a rogue to get every single skill you really want for a skillmonkey character, so two works quite well. May I suggest that the more melee-oriented rogue take Fighter levels so that he doesn't end up as gooey paste?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-16, 08:54 PM
No! No fighter!

Take a three-level dip in swashbuckler if you really want to melee with him, then focus your stats on intelligence. You end up with the ultimate skill monkey, capable of dealing good damage on any living creature.

I built something similar in gestalt recently. It's very possible to make a strong intelligence-based melee combatant skill monkey.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-01-16, 09:54 PM
Seriously? Crusader.

Like was stated before, White Raven is all about party support. The feat that goes with the discipline, lets you make an Intimidate check (DC 20) to make an opponent be considered to be Flanked for 1 min. For those who fail to see why a +2 to attack is nasty, may I remind you that you have a damage based Rogue in the party, and flanking is all that is necessary for Sneak Attacks. He can even sit back with a ranged attack and use Rapid Shot, the mob is considered Flanked for the full minute reguardless of normal flanking.

It's like a Paladin, only without the rod crammed up the rear, or the alignment restrictions, or forcing the character to be Lawful Stupid.

Drop a feat on Versitility to let him choose two cross-class skills as class skills. Pick up Sense Motive and Gather Information as these two skills. Intimidate is class for Crusader. These four skills are your key to being the ultimate party face. The buffing and ability to take nearly anything dished out will make you an invaluable member of the party in combat. It's about tailor made to what you are asking for.

Halcyon_Dax
2007-01-16, 10:24 PM
I love bards personally, but even if you dont want to go big into bard, bardic spellcasting allows glibness.

The best spell ever for a party face.

Well, its damn fun anyway.

Tor the Fallen
2007-01-17, 03:38 AM
I recommend a human bard. The bonus feat and skill points are far more useful than teh grap a half-elf gives you.


Also, glibness. +30 to bluffing. How can you pass?

Ali
2007-01-17, 02:26 PM
What's wrong with being a fighter party face?

pestilenceawaits
2007-01-17, 02:33 PM
What's wrong with being a fighter party face?

I wouldn't there is anything wrong with it, but bard, rogue, swashbuckler, etc. get the social interaction skills as class skills plus they get more skill points. fighters only get 2 skill points and they usually go to intimidate and one other class skill.

Ali
2007-01-17, 02:39 PM
You don't HAVE to put the other point into a class skill though.

Fighters make great party leaders. Look at Roy.

Person_Man
2007-01-17, 02:48 PM
Thanks for the ideas guys. Keep em coming. I'm getting Complete Scoundrel in a few days, and maybe that will give my player some help as well.

Re: Fighters as party faces: Fighters only get Intimidate as a class Skill, and lack Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nobility), Sense Motive, and Speak Language. And they have very few Skill points per level. You need not max out all of these to be an effective talker for your party, and many spells can get you around having low Skills. At the very least, you need Diplomacy and Sense Motive to be high, otherwise your most basic interactions will go pretty poorly.

pestilenceawaits
2007-01-17, 02:50 PM
You don't HAVE to put the other point into a class skill though.

Fighters make great party leaders. Look at Roy.

you can do anything you want all I am saying is it isn't the most efficient way to make a party leader. You would only be buying those skills at .5 ranks per level and compared to someone with full ranks it just isn't as good.
a 5th level rogue with a 10 intelligence can have diplomacy 8 + chr with 64 skill points left for other skills. The fighter will only have 4 ranks + chr with 8 skill points left over.

Ali
2007-01-17, 03:04 PM
I know that a fighter won't be as good with diplomacy and sense motive and such... but that's no reason to throw them out the window.

What's the point in having +30 to bluffing? That is not fun. You know you're going to succeed every time.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-17, 05:09 PM
Well heck, in that case be a barbarian that specializes in wisdom, and gets it so high that spellcasters have trouble hitting him with mind effects. Sure, you can do it. But why? Why?

Your time is better spent with other stats/strategies, or just picking a class that can actually use wisdom well. Just because in OotS Roy is the leader doesn't mean his build would be effective (or even probable) in a D&D game.

TSGames
2007-01-17, 05:40 PM
Nothing says "I am awesome" like a bard!
No class can say it in quite the same way as a bard...

LordLocke
2007-01-17, 07:38 PM
No class can say it in quite the same way as a bard...

They'll have to make a bluff check when they say it, but they're sure to pass it with flying colors.

Ali
2007-01-18, 04:10 PM
"Sure, you can do it. But why? Why?"

Why not? Underdogs are often fun to play.

Person_Man
2007-01-18, 05:04 PM
Ali, thank you for your input.

But in general, when someone asks "how do I make a character who's good at X," its really not helpful to say "this character is bad at X, but it'll be fun!" Players in my games are going to have fun no matter what they play. But this player in particular wants advice on how to be a mechanically good party face and leader. Not advice on how to suck but enjoy the playing experience.

Ali
2007-01-18, 05:10 PM
Person man, you have a point.

*Runs away.*