Best Naval Ship of all Times?

[kalos72]

So in my world, I have a group of players that are in the process of rebuilding a fairly large city after a earthquake/attack/volcano eruption.

Part of that rebuild is a navy...so they are looking at options. I dont care what book they are from.

What are the best choices?

Galleon seems to be the best the FR realm has...maybe the war dragon from Evermeet?

Greatship from Stormrack maybe?

What have you used/thought of as the latest and greatest badass naval ship in your worlds?

[BWR]

I dont care what book they are from.
You realize with that line there you can end up with something that could annihilate universes, right?

Assuming you mean officially printed D&D material, what is the tech level of this city? How much money does it have to spend on the navy? How important is the navy? How much magic do they have available?

[kalos72]

True true...

Ok SOME caveats...

D&D game...naval dominance is a desired end result...price isnt an issue - I like to RP my way out of 5million GP price tags and it opens great plot hooks for this group...

The group currently has spelljammers but does NOT want the average citizen/local to get much direct exposure to that option...best secrets are the ones that stay secrets.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Giant aircraft carrier with space for dragon roosts.

[lightningcat]

The best question is "Do you have cannons?"
If yes, then check out the Royal Galleon - I got the stats from d20 Broadsides!
But it is a 4 masted, 4 deck, 120 gun ship of the line.
Basically, its the HMS Endeavour from Pirates of the Caribbean series.


Giant aircraft carrier with space for dragon roosts.

Not D&D, but Naomi Novik did that in her Temeraire series.

[Akodo Makama]

Giant Flying aircraft carrier with space for dragon roosts.

[kalos72]

D20 Broadsides...I didnt see that one before. Nice! Thanks!

[BWR]

Alphatia has skyships, and Thyatis has airborne cavalry in the form of the Retebius Air Fleet (which has just about any flying creature large enough to carry a man - usually pegasi but including some dragons). Combine the two and you have airborne carriers.

[pendell]

Hey, just saw this.

There is no single "best ship for all time". There is only "perfect for the needs of my country, right here, right now."

For instance, if your country is not on the storm-tossed Atlantic , it might not need a square-rigged sailing ship. If it doesn't have sailing technology but it has lots of crew and calm seas, a trireme might be just the thing.

A carrier sounds cool. Question: Do you have fuel for it? If your world doesn't have nuclear power or fossil fuels, your aircraft carrier is going to be a floating iron island after a single day.

An aircraft carrier doesn't exist on its own. There's a whole fleet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underway_replenishment) of ships whose sole job is to keep the carrier supplied with food, fuel, medicine, ammunition, etc.

Do you have such a fleet?

Do you have an industry that can churn out masses of those goods for the fleet to carry?

Then an aircraft carrier isn't for you.

Another question: What exactly do you need a navy *for*?

In the real world, there are two basic types of navies: Brown-water and blue-water. A brown-water navy controls it's own coastline against drug smugglers and also hoists a 'don't tread on me' sign for the sake of other navies or pirates who might think of operating in those waters.

A blue-water, navy, by contrast, has a mandate to be able to go anywhere there is salt water . To dominate far away seas as well as the coastline, to project power with aircraft or naval infantry.

Superpowers like the US have blue-water navies. Small nations have brown-water navies, consisting mostly of patrol craft, a frigate or two , and of course the inevitable diesel-electric submarines to act as carrier-b-gone.

So, if you want to address this the way a real-life planner would, you have to ask yourself the following questions:

1) What is my navy's job? Is it a blue-water or brown-water navy? Who is it going to fight?

The answer to this feeds into other questions:

2) How much range will my ships have? How far are they going to go, and how long must they be deployed before a port visit? This tells you roughly how large the ship is. The most long-duration ships use nuclear power or wind. Both are limited only by the amount of food they can carry, but because a nuclear-powered ship has a great deal more horsepower than a sailing ship, it can support a larger hull and, consequently, more supplies and a larger crew. Fossil fuels and air-independent propulsion comes next. Oar power is at the very bottom, because the ships are small yet require huge crews, severely limiting their duration.

From this follow some other questions:

3) What weapons technology exists? Do I need armor to protect against high explosive shells, or is wood adequate against bows and arrows or roundshot? How many of these weapons will I mount myself? Do I need a battery, or do I want an all-big gun configuration like the Dreadnaught class?

4) What SENSOR technologies exist? The ability to see an enemy 200 miles away on a big, flat blue nothing is far different from the ability to see him on the horizon.

5) How will the ships be replenished? Can they be replenished underway or do they require a port visit?

6) Does the ship require escort? Once upon a time, the battleship was queen of the sea, until the invention of the Torpedo Boat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpedo_boat). This necessitated the development of the Torpedo boat destroyer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpedo_boat_destroyer#Early_history.2C_torpedo_bo at_destroyers), later just the destroyer, whose duty was to get between the big, expensive ships and the nasty, stinging wasps with their one-shot-kill weapons.

Then, once you've identified the *requirements* for your navy, you can start looking at what *solutions* make sense.

Knowing nothing else and without information, the first ship I would recommend would be a Fourth Rate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth-rate). Such a ship has endurance, firepower, range, and is useable both by a brown-water or a blue-water navy. The larger first ,second, and third rate ships were expensive and primarily used only for fighting other ships of their type. it was the fourth, fifth , or sixth-rates that were most commonly used for independent action and for fast raids. The US fought the Barbary Wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War) with just such ships. They'll do well against any pre-industrial enemy, and with magic can do just as well as anything else.

ETA: I do NOT recommend the Galleon because, while large, it had poor seakeeping qualities and did not perform well against smaller, more agile ships. See: Spanish Armada. If I lived in that era and I wanted a pirate ship, I would hijack a French naval frigate. They built their ships faster than the RN did.

Discussion (http://www.rollspel.nu/forum/files/241835-Ships.doc).

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[SoC175]

Giant Flying aircraft carrier with space for dragon roosts.Ok, now we're talking D&D again :smallbiggrin:

[nedz]

Submarine with silos for flying ice assassins.

[Rakaydos]

A modified galleon with an iron keel, a reinforced foredeck with no foresail to land Gryphons/small dragons, and a Teleportation Circle in the aft, belowdecks, behind magical wards to keep enemys from abusing it.

[CSeiberlin]

<snip>
Respectfully,

Brian P.

Outstanding start Brian.;-). I'd agree a fleet of fourth rates is the approach I'd use.

Given what we can infer from the OPs posts this is a bit of a high power campaign but they don't want to turn over spelljamming helms for general usage. So I'd assume 'no flying ships' as well.

It's a large city, recovering from multiple disasters, so while they may have mountains of gold to spend on the project, what they won't have will be manpower or any sort of skilled depth. So assume the goal is this is a city-state sized holding that needs a conventional fleet to protect it's interests and project what power it can.

I'd also assume that they are starting only a bit past the ground floor given the earthquake\attack\volcano eruption. The resulting tsunami and most likely fires have probably ruined what local fleet was there and devastated local industry.

A single Taj Mahal battleship (or handful of them) isn't going to be able to do that mission unless the goal is to simply 'protect the harbor' (if that is all they need, bound water elementals would probably be cheaper and more effective). A seafaring city-state is going to need it's commerce and if it can't patrol multiple sealanes it's screwed. First order of business would be to rebuild the industry, secure the city-state's source of naval stores (timber, cordage, turpentine, tar, etc), get a naval yard open, and make sure a ready and able pipeline of seamen was available;-).

Magic can help with construction and the naval stores side of things. A trained shipwright that also happens to have access to Fabricate could do things historical shipwrights would happily kill for. It's likely the volcano and earthquake would make the local naval stores supply a little scarce, but a spell like Plant Growth could accelerate things. If a Da Vinci is available\plausible, I'd consider a permanent Animate Object spell to create magical ship screws. You'd have to rig up a way to control the speed of the ships (even just using the animated object as a sort of perpetual engine and just engaging the shaft for the screws), but just a few ideas of how to get past the initial obstacles.

Long term, trained sailors and fighting men might be a issue. Assuming this is a blue water navy you want to build (and a city-state with big dreams), I'd model things off the Dutch (and the progression they went through with their East Indiamen ship designs). Basically, your navy would start off pulling double duty as merchantmen that can double as fourth raters when push came to shove.

Your initial ships probably should go the commercial families of the city. I would probably form a joint company, but the overall goal would be to get the city's economy back on its feet and a reason for local skilled citizens to stick around. As they start to make money again they can afford more ships and can train more sailors as well as develop experienced Captains if\when you need them. As needed those ships could be conscripted into the regular fleet in times of emergency and during peacetime be capable enough to deter piracy on your trade routes.

Long term, a would-be naval power in a fantasy world is probably going to require some sort of magical academy and most likely naval academy as well while developing its naval traditions. Getting a rather large temple pumping out clerics to a sea god (and\or healing for ship board surgeons) wouldn't hurt either. Not to mention securing a stable source of naval stores (hooray for colonization). Granted, a low level wizard with a state supplied wand of fireballs would be fairly devastating in naval combat, but arcane navigators who could cast Secret Page on their rutters and use divination magic to figure out their location would be invaluable for a City-State navy to punch far above its weight.

[kalos72]

Awesome replies! Thank you.

Good information to chew on...keep the suggestions coming please. :)

[CSeiberlin]

Awesome replies! Thank you.

Good information to chew on...keep the suggestions coming please. :)

If you could lay out a bit more of the scenario specifics, that'll make tailoring things to fit a bit easier.

Tell us about the city state. How big, major industries, local politics, what sort of damage did the volcano do....anything really. Is it a port to big ocean or an inland sea (like the Med)? Is it on an island by itself or on a continent? Nasty neighbors?

No spelljamming helms I'm assuming so they don't become widely available on the world? What are the capabilities of your party (class and levels)? Any other unusual resources (magical or otherwise)?

[No brains]

Just get everyone a punt. The ships are only one man, but their guns are good. Look em' up.

[Mutazoia]

Try this one :) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Victory)

[kalos72]

If you could lay out a bit more of the scenario specifics, that'll make tailoring things to fit a bit easier.

Tell us about the city state. How big, major industries, local politics, what sort of damage did the volcano do....anything really. Is it a port to big ocean or an inland sea (like the Med)? Is it on an island by itself or on a continent? Nasty neighbors?

No spelljamming helms I'm assuming so they don't become widely available on the world? What are the capabilities of your party (class and levels)? Any other unusual resources (magical or otherwise)?

Large city, industry dead being rebuild, several different factions playing for control but PC's have the only bloodline, ocean port - I want to expand the naval side of the city to provide greater influence over the larger area, pretty well rounded group 20-27lv range, all resources are options.

[nedz]

Just get everyone a punt. The ships are only one man, but their guns are good. Look em' up.

Ah, Jeune École (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeune_%C3%89cole) !
They just need to be armed with a weapon that can destroy large vessels and then stationed at choke points.

[Mutazoia]

Ah, Jeune École (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeune_%C3%89cole) !
They just need to be armed with a weapon that can destroy large vessels and then stationed at choke points.

Oh you mean like this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiten)?

[CSeiberlin]

Large city, industry dead being rebuild, several different factions playing for control but PC's have the only bloodline, ocean port - I want to expand the naval side of the city to provide greater influence over the larger area, pretty well rounded group 20-27lv range, all resources are options.

Ah...epic level resources except on the personnel front. And the problem I'd assume would be once your party steps out to have an epic level adventure the city would be vulnerable to attack.

I would shoot to create system that could function without direct PC supervision and sustain itself once you get it up and running. Create a legacy in the game world could be fun.

Assuming D&D, but what edition?

Wish magic could get expensive fast (moreso in 1e and 2e when it shaved years off your lifespan), but multiple Lyres of Building would be a start to repair some physical infrastructure damage. I would get enough upper skill check Perform (Lyre) players by sending the rogue type player to the campaign's major bardic college city and sponsoring a lyre contest with a 10,000 gp purse (and magic items you don't use anymore). Hire the top performers of the contest to come back to the city to maximize the playing time for however many Lyres of Building you create (here again, assuming this isn't 1e or 2e where creating magic items is more problematic).

That should at least the basic level infrastructure you need back up sooner rather than latter. There's other magic items that may help clearing pumice and excavating a deeper harbor like a Mattock of the Titans.

Past that, if you need engineers and shipwrights and don't have them available locally you can try to hire them. Gather Information at high enough DCs could tell you which ones are widely regarded as the best living at their craft in the world or beyond. If the best ever are dead...well you do have True Resurrection magic available (assuming disease, foul play, or accident killed them and not old age). Or you could summon and bind extraplanar craftsmen (but that would be admittedly more a short term solution).

If the best available don't want to work for you, you could also have your arcane caster(s) use Simulacrum to make a duplicate. A craftsman half as capable as the best master-craftsmen alive is still no slouch. They might not be as creative but until your industries rebuild and develop it gets you a baseline higher than amateur. You could also do the same to your own party if any has any sort of maritime skill (to get you some basic captains for your regular navy until you develop them the old fashioned way;-).

On the economic front, I'd sell your shipyard production cheap to the local citizenry with a string attached. Primarily that every ship is considered part of your Reserve Fleet (technically every officer on board holding a commission as a reserve naval officer). While they might mostly be doing commerce work (or privateer if you issue letters of marque), those merchantmen have to ply trade in fantasy waters inhabited by gods know what. They probably will be on par to any regular naval officers you commission.

For a regular navy, I probably wouldn't have it larger than 10% the size of my commercial fleet if you want the operation to be self-sustaining without epic level characters pumping money into fleet maintenance. After you get a magical school up and running and a system to maintain an regular commissioned officer cadre (and the economy of the city exerting muscle without a helping hand from you) before investing heavily too many ships that are strictly ships of the line. A big magical battlewagon ship is vulnerable to rat-bastardly dm sabotage, where a fairly sizable and capable fleet gives you a lot more leeway on what you can do and makes it a bit harder for a dm to reasonably negate somehow (and you have spelljamming helms as superweapon backups anyway).

[Yukitsu]

Here's a loose description of a ship I'm designing for a game I'm in.

"The rotational motion gained through the accumulative energy of the effigies of the roving maulers allows the gear array to rotate a drive shaft at considerable torque and velocity. This drive shaft can be arrayed for a multitude of work, such as drilling, driving a wheel, pumping water or virtually anything else in terms of motion.

One such application is the circling of a screw propeller which is capable of pushing a waterborn object forward. The more torque and speed this rotational screw is granted, the faster it can propel a vehicle.

When using this form of torque, a ship is freed from the fickle nature of wind and the lack of durability of human muscles, and allows a far greater portion of exterior deck space, and far more of the living crew to man weapons, or to attack enemies directly.

Such an array works well for larger vessels, as the amount of drive per square foot of hull increases exponentially (as given for the comparison of surface area to volume in any object.) Thus, it is worthwhile creating very large vessels using this method, necessitating a larger, stronger hull.

When discussing the increase in volume, a ship increases in buoyancy after accommodating for the increase in weight of the ship, which means that one could use materials that are unfeasible for a normal ship, such as thick iron, moulded together by magic forces. These fully iron ships would be immune to both conventional artillery, and to incindiaries employed by many navies of our time.

For weaponry, we can turn once more to effigies. The efficient, streamlined shape of a squid can be employed. The head can be outfitted by water tight casks sealed heavily with wax and filled with gunpowder, and as these creatures can move swiftly and in a semi-directed manner against enemy vessels, they could collide their munition against the enemy hull.

However, this causes issues with detonation. It's possible to incorporate a long fuse inside the barrel which could be lit prior to launch, but it seems more efficient to replace the barrel entirely.

A possible solution is the use of a plunger top composed of iron leading into a metal case container similarly filled with powder. The top can forcefully inject a small dose of alchemist fire from a sealed plunger if the force of impact is sufficient to dislodge the plug through the pressure, thus detonating the powder. These devices have the advantage that they cause catastrophic damage below the waterline, guaranteeing a kill against the enemy vessel. It also has the advantage that it may destroy targets that are entirely submerged, such as a Kraken.

This weapon system allows for a theoretical rapid kill rate against enemy vessels without the necessity of large broadsides of cannon fire. This leads to a tremendous amount of deck room which can be used to house aerial components which can be employed to drop incendiaries and powder onto the exposed decks of enemy ships. The remaining deck space and rails can be used to both repel boarding attempts and enemy aerial opponents through the use of razordisk nightmares bolted along the rails. By forcing them outword on pivots, these simple constructs can be pointed at enemy targets as they close, firing disks at a high, accurate rate of fire. For safety, they can have their ocular detector blinded, and they can also have their pivots incapable of rotating to the habitable portion of the vessel."

[nedz]

Oh you mean like this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiten)?

Yeah — but no.
That was a failed attempt.
This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-boat), and even this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PT_boat), worked much better.

[BeerMug Paladin]

If you're using the navy to defend a city, a host of clerics casting the water walk spell. It's a 3rd level spell, but it can be used on many people at once per casting, and the spell also allows one to simply walk up to board enemy ships, or attack the enemy ships directly with melee weapons. (sundering!)

If you combine it with water breathing, you can even have people wait or walk underwater until they are close to the ship, and be buoyed up by water walk in order to board/attack the ship by surprise.

For a more serious answer, there is no best ship type, but if your resources to build a navy include magic casters, I'd suggest placing at least one spellcaster of some kind on every ship.

Also, there are some magic items, like the feather tokens, which can be useful in certain circumstances, and are (remarkably) quite cheap for some reason. The fan, anchor and boat tokens, specifically, one of each costing a mere 700gp. Compared to the prices in books I've seen listed for complete boats, I would think that any serious naval vessels would have a couple of each of these tokens to spare for utility, just in case.

Well within the affordability of most adventuring groups, especially if they didn't just start out.

[Jay R]

The best ship of all time is the Spelljammer.

Of course, they can't build that, so revise your question to what's the best ship of the time and place they are in.

Obviously, only you can decide that.

(The next question is what's the best ship for which plans are available in a city being rebuilt after a earthquake/attack/volcano eruption? Your question really is situation-specific.)

[kalos72]

Again great ideas here.

Can Simulacrum be cast without the original person knowing? This idea can be used for most skills actually...even if just to become a teacher at the various academies.

We have Lyres and Mattocks in storage and ready...we are now trying to RP how we get enough stone to feed them once they start playing.

For the harbor, we are thinking just effigy siege weapons and maybe some aquatic effigies as well to start with.

[CSeiberlin]

Again great ideas here.

Can Simulacrum be cast without the original person knowing? This idea can be used for most skills actually...even if just to become a teacher at the various academies.

We have Lyres and Mattocks in storage and ready...we are now trying to RP how we get enough stone to feed them once they start playing.

For the harbor, we are thinking just effigy siege weapons and maybe some aquatic effigies as well to start with.

For Simulacrum, no the original critter gets no special awareness they've been duplicated. However, IIRC depending on which edition you use (3.0 or 3.5) I think there is a hair\blood\body-bit requirement which does not technically exist for the Pathfinder version. Though I do require a body bit for my table game and I believe it's a fairly common additional house rule requirement for Pathfinder gms.

If you have access to Walls of Stone (instantaneous duration) spells that could give you some raw material for the Lyres of Building. While it doesn't work in Pathfinder you can also use Walls of Iron for raw material as well in 3.5 and under D&D. If you have access to Plant Growth you have your timber, cordage, and any other plant fiber\sap byproduct you could use. If you have access to Create Demiplane series of spells (and the money\time to create permanent portals to the pocket dimension) you could use that to grow specialized environment crops quickly by adjusting the flow of time to run a bit faster. Harvest could be run by specially created constructs or bound extraplanar creature (if you can dig out the specialized Genies from Al Qadim that may work out well).

I would take a bit of care not to destroy your local economy by going overboard with it...just to fill gaps that you don't have accessible rather than replace\overlap local industry. Not just with the 'Wish' economy but with the mountains'o'gold that any DM with a Freshman's knowledge of Economics is gonna slap you with hyperinflation.

The locals can't eat gold, which probably won't be a problem for your group to supply (food that is), but on the flip side if you supply cheap and accessible food you drive the farmers\food suppliers to the city who are still functioning out of business. Once gone, redeveloping those industries could be a bugbear unless you plan on making the citizenry dependent on your capabilities. Same goes for textile industries, blacksmiths, carpentry, masons, etc.... too much cheap magical capability drives the mundane population with those skill sets out of business and most likely forces them to relocate or fall down a rung (creating an unhappy segment of population which will feed into a hostile power faction).

You do have the benefit that the recent disasters have probably created a 'Year Zero' situation for your City State but I'd still tread carefully if your DM is on the ball. Whatever you do, you want to co-opt the power factions into your new order, make it in their own self-interest to play the game by your rules even if they are trying to displace you politically.

[kalos72]

Are the simulacrums mindless or do they have personality and decision making skills?

Perhaps a host of "War Captain Stavros" simulacrums wearing hooded capes and masks to hide the fact they are all the same guy?

Or a cabal of my high mages simulacrums to help cast high magic or ritual spells?

This opens a whole other can of worms... :P

But long term, these guys could at least get the ball rolling in town.

I wonder if, since I supply all food for free now, I ask the commoner farmer to "retrain" as an artificer, if he would go for it? Give them a signing bonus and a new house or something?

Or how would a "Naval Academy" work after all? Ok so I have simulacrums of some major skills: shipwright, captain, sailor or whatever, sitting at the school waiting for students.

I recruit 100 local commoner level people and enroll them...then what? 6 months later they are expert sailors/shipwrights/captains or certain level characters now?

I never understood "schools/colleges/academies" in D&D...

[CSeiberlin]

This opens a whole other can of worms... :P

But long term, these guys could at least get the ball rolling in town.

I wonder if, since I supply all food for free now, I ask the commoner farmer to "retrain" as an artificer, if he would go for it? Give them a signing bonus and a new house or something?

No, not mindless They can pass a cursory inspection as 'the real thing' so while they may not exactly have the original's vibrant personality, creativity, or full skill set, they're functional enough (and nothing to sneeze at if you duplicate epic level PCs). You aren't required to make them look exactly like the original, but have to make a disguise check to fool someone familiar with the original when you create a simulacrum. I think there is some wiggle room to sortof 'botch' the creation...the result may resemble the original but...

Given you mentioned retraining, I'm assuming this is a pathfinder game (or using UA though I don't remember if that allowed class retraining). The PF simulacrum spell...

[
Simulacrum

School illusion (shadow); Level sorcerer/wizard 7

Casting Time 12 hours

Components V, S, M (ice sculpture of the target plus powdered rubies worth 500 gp per HD of the simulacrum)

Range 0 ft.

Effect one duplicate creature

Duration instantaneous

Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD). You can't create a simulacrum of a creature whose HD or levels exceed twice your caster level. You must make a Disguise check when you cast the spell to determine how good the likeness is. A creature familiar with the original might detect the ruse with a successful Perception check (opposed by the caster's Disguise check) or a DC 20 Sense Motive check.

At all times, the simulacrum remains under your absolute command. No special telepathic link exists, so command must be exercised in some other manner. A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities. If reduced to 0 hit points or otherwise destroyed, it reverts to snow and melts instantly into nothingness. A complex process requiring at least 24 hours, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped magical laboratory can repair damage to a simulacrum.



As far as retraining farmers, IMO it will probably lead to trouble on the mid and long term. Especially if the DM is looking for complications to throw your way (and he should...epic level pcs are wearing big boy pants now;-).

Farmers have to do more than just feed people....any beasts of burden at least require quite a bit of hay and some grains. Not to mention they supply brewers (and alcohol is a vital part of maintaining the health of a big city in preventing much wider outbreaks of waterborne diseases), supplying flax\cotton\hemp\etc for other industries, supply animal protein (magical food might sustain you but is generally described as 'bland'), wax (via bee hives), grain to keep your bakeries open, and other products we would generally take for granted.

Economic incentives could probably entice a sizable portion of your Ag economics over to other industry but what happens if your magical food supply gets cutoff? If the food is being supplied by one source, an enemy of the city could sabotage it. Or there are other things the DM could do that would be way beyond your control....for example the Week Without Magic\Day of Dread from the Mystara campaign world history. Or wild magic. I'd just be very careful to have a mundane baseline instead of depending on magic for more than a stopgap (except for things you could not normally produce).

[CSeiberlin]

Or how would a "Naval Academy" work after all? Ok so I have simulacrums of some major skills: shipwright, captain, sailor or whatever, sitting at the school waiting for students.

I recruit 100 local commoner level people and enroll them...then what? 6 months later they are expert sailors/shipwrights/captains or certain level characters now?

I never understood "schools/colleges/academies" in D&D...

Most D&D training as pseudo-medieval would be via apprenticeships. The training period of indenture would last years as stipulated by the master (and most likely the governing guild). For desirable trades you paid for the privilege of apprenticeship and until you were recognized as a journeyman you essentially were cheap if not free labor (for years).

A early naval academy I would see functioning as a cross between Philip the Navigator's gathering of mapmakers\cartographers and a formalized way to speed up training to develop officers loyal to the particular city-state. The midshipmen would still have to go to sea but their network of loyalty would be to a much wider officer corps rather than to a particular captain or family that brought them up through the ranks. Plus the academy would standardize your cartography (as well as a repository for rutters...secret navigation charts), research new navigation techniques, make sure your officers have a basic level skill set (know their letters, flag signals, tactics, leadership experience, etc).

Given the necessity for having magical capable personnel to work with your city defenses, it's essentially the same deal. A faster way to develop spellcasters (who would then owe a military term of service to the state).

[Incorrect]

This sounds like a job for MANTA-MAN!
Generally a Warblade with Cloak of the Manta Ray, who swim-uber-charges and sunders ships.


Many small ships with good weapons might be best for defense, as the enemy will have to many targets to focus. Though they might lack long range capability.

[kalos72]

One of the group mentioned something like flying NPC's with firebombs or even small self propelled "runner" style craft with arcane ballista on them.

I sort of like the idea...

And then just use standard galleons/ships of the line for the larger force projection...

[SassyQuatch]

You probably want a few Q-ships. If your area has been devastated and needs to rebuild you can count on pirates. Pirate ships will be less well armed but faster than your warships, so you will need to lure them in with a fat "merchant" ship which just so happens to be at least as well armed as the pirates.

Unless you are willing to convoy your merchant ships, but then foreign powers will likely look at your actions as aggressive since you always show up at their ports with warships on the horizon.

[FabulousFizban]

fireboats. lots and lots of fireboats. they are cheap, easy to pilot, and will destroy any water bourne enemy regardless of strength by virtue of explosions.

It's nice that you have 50 top of the line 120 gun behemoths, can they sink the 300+ fireboats i just filled the harbor with before you blow up?

[Mutazoia]

Make the mouth of the harbor shallow. A simple chain across the mouth of the harbor can stop all sorts of shenanigans. Couple that with a (water) pressure driven spike (sharpened steel tipped tree trunk) launcher on the harbor bottom just in front of the chain. You stop the lead ship, puncture the hull from the bottom it sinks blocking the harbor from entry by the rest of the enemy ships.

[nedz]

Lots of Water Elementals and Sea Monsters.
They're cheap, effective and they'll never see them coming.

[veti]

The fourth-rate ship of the line is a fine vessel, assuming your primary armament is some kind of cannon. If you're in a pre-gunpowder or high-magic world, not so much.

The coolest ship in history for a D&D-like setting is, without question, the Viking longship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longship). Excellent handling qualities in blue or brown water, powered by sails or oars as required, and a scary prow figurehead to boot. What's not to love?

No ship-to-ship weaponry, mind you, but then who needs it? Unless your opponents have cannon, you can just outrun them. And if they have magic equivalent to cannon, then you can put a wizard of the same level on your boat too. Wizards don't take much room.

[Beleriphon]

--STUFF--

Did you just magic up an aircraft carrier, a torpedo boat, and a battle ship using squids and griffons?

[CSeiberlin]

The fourth-rate ship of the line is a fine vessel, assuming your primary armament is some kind of cannon. If you're in a pre-gunpowder or high-magic world, not so much.

The coolest ship in history for a D&D-like setting is, without question, the Viking longship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longship). Excellent handling qualities in blue or brown water, powered by sails or oars as required, and a scary prow figurehead to boot. What's not to love?

No ship-to-ship weaponry, mind you, but then who needs it? Unless your opponents have cannon, you can just outrun them. And if they have magic equivalent to cannon, then you can put a wizard of the same level on your boat too. Wizards don't take much room.

They have cannon. Assuming Pathfinder rules but if not they are still using Spelljammer (which have Giff who have cannon;-) and an epic level party that shouldn't have much difficulty acquiring gunpowder weapons if they want them.

[Yukitsu]

Did you just magic up an aircraft carrier, a torpedo boat, and a battle ship using squids and griffons?

Yeah. Haven't figured out a way to make the squids stable enough to let the griffons drop them like a zero drops a torp.

Surprisingly, this took a lot less creativity than that tracking device I made out of ants, led foil and a sugar cube.

Edit: Oh yeah, and I needed to use a bunch of these guys (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/outsider_fools_3.jpg) as well, but mechanical ones mind you.