3.5 PvP Build Help

[LeeroyJenkins]

So I am potentially going to take part in a PvP campaign where we start at ECL 6. Templates and races with level adjustments are allowed; however, I tend to prefer to just take straight levels. Pretty much everything is allowed except for Druid, whirl-pounce barbarian and the Shivering Touch spell that deals 3d6 DEX damage. I was wondering what a good build would be. Another PC is considering Wild-Shape Ranger into Master of Many Forms.

[Sir Chuckles]

If you're starting at ECL 6, try not to use things that have a LA. A Wizard 6 is far more powerful than a straight Ogre (Who starts at an ECL 6)

If it's PvP, you also need consider how skilled each player is behind the character. Now it could be a bit of metagaming, but if that was the case, than nobody should be talking about what they're considering playing.

It also depends on your goal. Do you just want to do whatever (in which case, why are you asking?)? Or are you aiming for a complete "victory"?

Because there are some insane things you could pull off as an Anthropomorphic (You said pretty much everything...) Bat Cleric of Celerity and Whatever.
Hell, Wealth By Level means you can pick up a Candle of Invocation, at least one scroll of Scrying, and basically have an "I-Win" button.

I think we'd need a touch more premise before we can say too much, or else 75% of it will be too ridiculous/asinine/generally frowned upon to pull off.
How many players?
What's the story? Are you all thrown into a jungle island and told to fight to the death? Or is it a gladiator arena type thing? Wizard's chess with swords?

[LeeroyJenkins]

So first off, I am not necessarily aiming for "complete victory" I am just fairly new and want something that won't be absolutely destroyed while still having fun.

As far as wealth, we actually only have the wealth of a 3rd level PC and we cannot start with any magic items, I forgot to mention that in my first post.

There are going to be either 3 or 4 players total and as far as story PvP is not guaranteed but it is implied. By this I mean that we can choose not to PvP but in the end there can really only be one "winner" so eventually it will happen.

In regards to completely crazy builds like anthropomorphic, the DM is fairly lenient although anything too overpowered or "exotic" per-say will not be allowed. The DM will probably not allow extra-planar creatures or anything like that which is what I mean by exotic.

Also, thanks for reading :)

[Silva Stormrage]

Can you start with alchemical items? If so I would look into some semi obscure items like dust egg shell grenades (Blind on a ranged touch attack no save for 1d4 rounds).

One build that I love at low levels is a master of shrouds build.

Go necropolitain (Libris Mortis it essentially gives you the undead type with out any LA) Dread Necromancer 1 (Heroes of Horror, this class gives you a touch attack that can heal undead including yourself at will), cleric 2/master of shrouds (Libris Mortis again) 3.

This build lets you summon a lot of incorporeal undead and since no one else has any magic items they become unable to hurt your minions with weapon attacks and must rely on spells.

[Sir Chuckles]

As far as wealth, we actually only have the wealth of a 3rd level PC and we cannot start with any magic items, I forgot to mention that in my first post.

There are going to be either 3 or 4 players total and as far as story PvP is not guaranteed but it is implied. By this I mean that we can choose not to PvP but in the end there can really only be one "winner" so eventually it will happen.

Personal note: I hate campaigns with forced or encouraged PvP. I never disallow it, but I do frown on it. It's a bit of a bias, as I have a hardcore Powergamer/Munchkin in my group, so when gets Death Attacked by the party's (Evil) Assassin that he pissed off, he gonna get maaaaaad.

But if it's implied that you will have to work together for a short time, it may be to your benefit to play as a Leadership, Handle Animal, or Summoning character.

For me, I would personally play as:
Strong Heart Halfling Commoner 1/Survivor 5
With a 28 point buy:
8 (-2) Str, 14(+2) Dex, 16 Con, 8 Int, 10 Wis, 16 Cha
This would leave me at +4 AC, 1d4+5d6+18hp (About 37, maxed would be 52), Improved Evasion (With a +7 to Reflex), Uncanny Dodge, DR 5/-, and some excellent bonuses on movement skills, especially untrained Hide and Move Silently, as well as a whopping 9 skill points to mash into Handle Animal and Ride.
Feats:
Bonus: Wild Cohort (This is important. It may penalize your actual Cohort Leadership score, but a +3 HD Riding Dog, trained for war, could easily kill a Wizard if it got the initiative.)
6: Leadership. With base score of 9, even with the minus 2, you have a 5th level Cohort (Lv4, due to restrictions). Let him/her/it do your fighting. And even at a low level, if you can get your Leadership score to 10, you have can 5 Lv1 Commoners backing you up. Aid Another and Flanking makes for happy Cohort.

And that's with a 28 point buy. With a 32 point buy, I would increase Int to 12 for a large jump in skill points (From 9 to 31, meaning you can put a full 9 points into both Ride and Handle Animal, and then another 9 into Listen or Spot, and cross-class ranks in Hide and/or Move Silently).

And as a Halfling, you'd have a total of a +4 to hit with a Sling. Granted, 1d3-2 damage may seem like nothing, but you could be carrying a +1, due to Wealth By Level. +5 to hit and 1d3-1 isn't enough to make a 10 Con Wizard 6 (~14hp) worry, but that AND a Dog with a +6 to Bite that does 1d6+4, with a potential Trip, PLUS a horde of Commoners and a Lv4 Cleric can ruin his day. 6d6 Fireball means nothing when two entities (You and your dog) have Evasion, and everything else is in his face.

It's also worth noting that your dog would be gaining an additional feat as an animal companion.
Consider having it take Wild Cohort, giving your animal companion and animal companion.

[LeeroyJenkins]

Silva Stormrage, I am unsure about alchemical items and can get back to you on that. I also think the idea behind undead seems quite fun and good.

Sir Chuckles, I really like the idea behind the survivor class; however, I asked the DM and leadership is not going to be allowed since then everyone will practically have to take it to be on an even playing field. I feel like without leadership the survivor class is kind of lack luster since while DR is good, having no Bab is mildly crippling without having something that can do damage fairly reliably.

Thanks for the responses

[Sir Chuckles]

Silva Stormrage, I am unsure about alchemical items and can get back to you on that. I also think the idea behind undead seems quite fun and good.

Sir Chuckles, I really like the idea behind the survivor class; however, I asked the DM and leadership is not going to be allowed since then everyone will practically have to take it to be on an even playing field. I feel like without leadership the survivor class is kind of lack luster since while DR is good, having no Bab is mildly crippling without having something that can do damage fairly reliably.

Thanks for the responses

Then go Ranger. Vanilla Ranger, yes. If Druid isn't allowed, then go Strongheart Halfling, again, and put the Charisma score I had into Strength.
Strongheart Halfling Ranger 5/Master Thrower 1
28 Point Buy: 16 Str (-2), 16 (+2) Dex, 15 Con (Use the +1 from Lv4 to increase it to 16, reduce to 14 and have 10 int), 8 Int, 8 Wis, 8 Cha.
Again, no spellcasting due to Wisdom, but w/e. You're only Lv6.
32 Point Buy: 16 (-2) Str, 16 (+2) Dex, 15 Con (Again, +1 from Lv4), 12 Int (For skill points in Ride, Hide, Listen, ect.), 8 Wis, 8 Cha

Feats:
Bonus: Point Blank Shot
1: Precise Shot
3:Weapon Focus (Any throwing weapon)
6: Wild Cohort
The feat tax for Master Thrower is a bit heavy, but Trip Shot is very useful.

What this means is that you now have TWO animal companions, one using the Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) table (Meaning +3 HD and a bonus feat from the HD. Meaning your Wild Cohort could have a Wild Cohort. Which is what I advocate.), and one as a 1st level Druid.

Alternatively, you could have at least 12 Wisdom, gaining a 1st level bonus spell, and being able to 1/day cast Summon Nature's Ally I.

Why do I advocate the use of multiple animals and allies?
Action economy.
In a PvP match, controlling the action economy is key, as with any one-on-one fight, or even a free-for-all between several players. Tripping Shot, a Wolf or Riding Dog that can trip, and possibly summoning a third Wolf could easily kill a person. You'd be at an obvious disadvantage against a fierce martial class (Particularly against high AC Fighters and nova-ing Barbarians), but again, if you're in a tree, hiding (mmm...Halfling Climb bonuses), and they can't reach you, and you're a master thrower, you can win or escape with ease.

A final optional addition is to take a Flaw and use the bonus feat to take Brachiation. It's within a Ranger's flavor perfectly, and could save your life.

[Eldariel]

Just be a Wizard, an Artificer (depending on how much crafting is allowed, they can be godlike), a Cleric or an Archivist. They're more or less the strongest on these levels, without Druid. Erudite would work with a lot of work but all the mentioned classes are much easier to reach limitless power on. You could also be a Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer with Loredrake Archetype [Dragons of Eberron] and Greater Draconic Rite of Passage for 9th level Sorc casting I guess.

[LeeroyJenkins]

Why do I advocate the use of multiple animals and allies?
Action economy.
In a PvP match, controlling the action economy is key, as with any one-on-one fight, or even a free-for-all between several players. Tripping Shot, a Wolf or Riding Dog that can trip, and possibly summoning a third Wolf could easily kill a person. You'd be at an obvious disadvantage against a fierce martial class (Particularly against high AC Fighters and nova-ing Barbarians), but again, if you're in a tree, hiding (mmm...Halfling Climb bonuses), and they can't reach you, and you're a master thrower, you can win or escape with ease.

A final optional addition is to take a Flaw and use the bonus feat to take Brachiation. It's within a Ranger's flavor perfectly, and could save your life.

I think that build sounds quite strong, thanks for the help.

One last question though, why strongheart halfling over human? I feel that while the extra DEX counteracts the STR penalty, the lower move speed could prove to be a problem for escaping or against an opponent that can kite with a bow since they will outrange me.

[Callin]

Can we get a list of approved material?

[LeeroyJenkins]

Can we get a list of approved material?

What do you mean?

[Callin]

What books and such are allowed to pick and choose from?

[LeeroyJenkins]

What books and such are allowed to pick and choose from?

The DM has not banned any books as a whole, only certain things are banned such as the spell Shivering Touch (from Frostburn). The DM more or less bans only specific things that he sees as overpowered or unbalanced as they come up. Right now I have to have my build "checked" so that it won't cause any issues before I can finalize anything.

I realize that it is hard to determine what is overpowered or not without anything being outright banned but I just have to do trial and error until I find something that works.

[Sir Chuckles]

I think that build sounds quite strong, thanks for the help.

One last question though, why strongheart halfling over human? I feel that while the extra DEX counteracts the STR penalty, the lower move speed could prove to be a problem for escaping or against an opponent that can kite with a bow since they will outrange me.

Size bonus to AC, to-hit bonus with thrown weapons, size-bonus to Hide, Halfling bonuses to various skills, Dex will improve significantly more skills than strength, and kiting isn't an issue at Lv6, as Shot on the Run is likely not going to come into play if there isn't a Scout. And if there is a Scout, climb a tree to gain cover bonuses. Go prone in said tree and gain +4 to AC against ranged attacks. Laugh when he tries to make ranged attacks when being flanked by two wolves (Instantly being hit twice, and get hit=Trip attempt).

Being outsped? That what those ranks in ride are for. The Skill Trick Leaping Climber (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/leaping-climber--3291/) can help immensly, consider that you could jump from the back of your Dog/Wolf/Camel/Whatever.


The DM has not banned any books as a whole, only certain things are banned such as the spell Shivering Touch (from Frostburn). The DM more or less bans only specific things that he sees as overpowered or unbalanced as they come up. Right now I have to have my build "checked" so that it won't cause any issues before I can finalize anything.

I realize that it is hard to determine what is overpowered or not without anything being outright banned but I just have to do trial and error until I find something that works.

That's a bit of what I do, but the big that will make it better is asking him to set up a list of outright banned things, beyond Shivering Touch.
EG Ice Assassin, Chaos Shuffle, certain builds that rely on too much fiat, Candles of Invocation, etc.

[LeeroyJenkins]

Size bonus to AC, to-hit bonus with thrown weapons, size-bonus to Hide, Halfling bonuses to various skills, Dex will improve significantly more skills than strength, and kiting isn't an issue at Lv6, as Shot on the Run is likely not going to come into play if there isn't a Scout. And if there is a Scout, climb a tree to gain cover bonuses. Go prone in said tree and gain +4 to AC against ranged attacks. Laugh when he tries to make ranged attacks when being flanked by two wolves (Instantly being hit twice, and get hit=Trip attempt).

Being outsped? That what those ranks in ride are for. The Skill Trick Leaping Climber (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/leaping-climber--3291/) can help immensly, consider that you could jump from the back of your Dog/Wolf/Camel/Whatever.

Ok, this sounds good, thank you for all the help

[FinnDarkblade]

Another alchemical item you might want to look at is Aboleth Mucus from Savage Species. It only costs 20 gp and forces a DC 19 fort save against anyone who touches(it can be thrown as a grenadelike weapon with no splash) or breathes it. If they fail then they can't breath air for the next 3 hours.

[GreenETC]

Another question for you is how high is this campaign suppose to go up to before the deathmatch starts? Some builds are absolute killers at low levels, but fall off later.

Also, how much are the opponents supposed to know about your build? If they only know what you do in game, then you can REALLY wreck them with a Master of Shrouds build, as they won't expect it if you just start as an evil cleric who hits things and rebukes undead, provided you don't summon any shadows. Then when the time comes, call those bad boys up and murder them as they can't fight them efficiently.

Honestly, I really like the Master of Shrouds idea, even without being Necropolitan. If you play it right, you can get so many rebuke attempts that you can power divine feats like crazy and pump yourself into the stratosphere during the normal game, and then end it by summoning ghosts to murder them from inside the walls.