Here there be venting: I can't Wizard

[Kazyan]

I'm playing a Wizard/Swiftblade archer, and the melee characters are making me look like a chump.

See, we have this game with a modest amount of shenanigans going on. Here's the roster:

Healbot: Human Favored Soul/Ordained Champion build totaling to 10 levels; I don't know the details of level distribution. Operates by channeling healing spells into daggers and using a custom use-activated ring of Launch Item to toss them at allies, healing them from range. Does nothing when no healing is required. Always flies away with 110' fly speed Feathered Wings graft when things get hairy.
Ranged damage: Gray Elf Martial Wizard 6/Swiftblade 4. It's me. Character sheet (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=714368). I use Heart of Water, Shadow Conjuration (Create Magic Tattoo [+2 competence to hit]), and Mage armor as daily buffs.
Melee damage: Human Monk 3/Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Fist of the Forest 3/Bear Warrior 1/Warshaper...3, I think? This guy does, like, 40 damage a hit due to stacked size increases on his unarmed strike and has an AC in the high 30s. His saves are preposterously high, partially due to a Cloak of Resistance +5 he got from a party member.
Melee damage: Half-Iron Golem Dwarf Fighter 8/Dwarven Defender 3. Yes, really. He can get his AC into the low 40s, and due to WotC's oversight of the Half Golem DR, nothing gets through his 25 points of damage reduction/+2. He also has 173 HP and a ring of continuous Lesser Vigor. He killed a lion-like demon on his own simply because it couldn't actually deal any damage to him except on a crit, at which point his Lesser Vigor would fix the problem.

Now, I'm used to playing weak characters, but I feel kinda underpowered.

- I can plink away with the energy bow, but it's just icing on the melee characters' damagecake.
- I continually find myself unable to bail out the party from their enemies by throwing out just the right spell for the job, but the healer can fix the problem no sweat (or just run away)
- My spell list seems ineffective against our recent foes, which deal in ability damage. Incorporeality makes BFC utterly irrelevant.
- Most importantly, my defenses are garbage. 18 AC does nothing at this level, and I have 1/4 the HP of the Dwarven Defender. Things make me hurt.

I know that, being a Wizard, I should be able to instantly and automatically solve every encounter as a standard action, regardless of any complication. I can't. The melee characters are the ones with the "I Win" buttons, not me! The Bear Warrior does enough damage to kill everything, and the Dwarven Defender is unkillable.

For example, when I was grappled by a Shambling Mound, I was close to dying right there--I could have discharged Heart of Water to get out, but then getting out of attack range would have provoked an AoO, putting me right back into a grapple and possible depleting my remaining HP at the time. I had to rely on the Bear Warrior walking up and instakilling it. In this recent session, the healer and I kept eating ability damage from a trio of ghosts, nerfing us until we had to retreat.

I'm feeling frustrated. Wizards are supposed to be gods; why am I a peon?

[AMFV]

Wizarding depends on the ability to use your spell list in creative ways and think outside the box. That might just be something you don't enjoy as much. I find that wizards are immensely fun and can generally solve many problems. But it is critical to remember that good strategy is always more important than good optimization. As such you could just not enjoy the kind of strategy that a wizard uses, have you tried other classes?

[ryu]

Well for starters damage is the least efficient thing the vast majority of wizards can do with their turn. Instead of killing them as quickly as possible, it's generally more likely to succeed and less resource intensive to disable people entirely with battlefield control, if not that limit their options and relevance to the fight, use effective buff spells, debuff enemies, summon more allies outside of combat, transform enemies into harmless things, transform your beatsticks into bloody hydras, predict the future in down time, aid in general party defense, or set piles upon piles of backup plans you can activate instantly.

Your weakness is that you picked an inefficient choice to favor at levels, and sacrificed caster levels into playing an archer which D&D tends to despise unless you optimize them hard.

If I were you? I'd look up conjuration, transmutation, and maybe some illusions if you want to put in heavy effort to start. If you read the spells carefully and start asking yourself what the spell can accomplish if used well you'll probably learn a lot of the good ones. If not feel free to come back for a basic list of starter goodies.

[Sir Chuckles]

To put it simply:
You're being out-optimized/out-cheesed.

It's very obvious, reading through your descriptions of your teammates, that your DM is letting them get away with quite a few dubious things (EG, the Dwarven Defender's DR). It's also apparent that your DM is throwing woefully ineffective enemies at you.
Yes, a Shambling Mound can be dangerous, but it's a CR 6 plant with 60hp.
CR 6 vs a CR 10. Even as a (poorly built) Wizard, with multiple flaws in your sheet (You have two feats marked as Wizard bonus feats, W1 and W5, and neither of which, Expeditious Dodge and Precise Shot can be taken as Wizard bonus feat), you should be able to take it down with ease.

And it has a lot to do with how you use your spells. It says right on your sheet that you have Polymorph and Dimension Door. Both of those spells would have gotten you out of the situation in an instant.

Basically, you're a "peon" (by your words) because you can't Wizard. You just ain't doin' it right. (http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/1/13/Engineer_dominationengineer01.wav?t=20100709021808 )
It really doesn't help that your party members are cheesed to high-hell. It further doesn't help that your DM is not throwing the right things at you. You've got an ECL 12 Monk and an ECL 13 Half-Golem.
Why is he sending a CR 6 Shambling Mound at you?
That's DR 25/+2 is still /+2. Magic weapons go right through that, and at CR 12 many creature's natural attacks count as magic to go through that. Or have magic that does energy damage (Which completely ignores DR). He should be throwing Storm Giants and adult Chromatic Dragons at you.

[AMFV]

To put it simply:
You're being out-optimized/out-cheesed.

It's very obvious, reading through your descriptions of your teammates, that your DM is letting them get away with quite a few dubious things (EG, the Dwarven Defender's DR). It's also apparent that your DM is throwing woefully ineffective enemies at you.
Yes, a Shambling Mound can be dangerous, but it's a CR 6 plant with 60hp.
CR 6 vs a CR 10. Even as a (poorly built) Wizard, with multiple flaws in your sheet (You have two feats marked as Wizard bonus feats, W1 and W5, and neither of which, Expeditious Dodge and Precise Shot can be taken as Wizard bonus feat), you should be able to take it down with ease.

He's a martial wizard variant, as such he can take them as bonus feats.



And it has a lot to do with how you use your spells. It says right on your sheet that you have Polymorph and Dimension Door. Both of those spells would have gotten you out of the situation in an instant.

I'm not sure if that's always the case in that scenario, polymorph certainly is useful, but not when grappled, since you can't cast it under those conditions normally. Dimension door would have worked though.


Basically, you're a "peon" (by your words) because you can't Wizard. You just ain't doin' it right. (http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/1/13/Engineer_dominationengineer01.wav?t=20100709021808 )
It really doesn't help that your party members are cheesed to high-hell. It further doesn't help that your DM is not throwing the right things at you. You've got an ECL 12 Monk and an ECL 13 Half-Golem.
Why is he sending a CR 6 Shambling Mound at you?
That's DR 25/+2 is still /+2. Magic weapons go right through that, and at CR 12 many creature's natural attacks count as magic to go through that. Or have magic that does energy damage (Which completely ignores DR). He should be throwing Storm Giants and adult Chromatic Dragons at you.

They're not that cheesy. Personally I would remember that swiftblade wizards tend to be wizardy at low levels and gishy at higher levels if you're close enough to be getting grappled you're probably already in trouble. Fly is a thing, that should be your go-to option. Especially because then you can still archer.

[Kazyan]

Wizarding depends on the ability to use your spell list in creative ways and think outside the box. That might just be something you don't enjoy as much. I find that wizards are immensely fun and can generally solve many problems. But it is critical to remember that good strategy is always more important than good optimization. As such you could just not enjoy the kind of strategy that a wizard uses, have you tried other classes?

I have. My previous character in that campaign was a Binder with Expel Vestige, and I fell in love with the ability to pull out a vestige that loosely fir the situation. I've played a Totemist, which was a big ball of fun, as was a low-level Druid with Wild Cohort--my tiny handful of druid spells were lovely. But I'm having difficulty with the pressure of playing a class notorious for being able and expected to do everything perfectly.


Well for starters damage is the least efficient thing the vast majority of wizards can do with their turn. Instead of killing them as quickly as possible, it's generally more likely to succeed and less resource intensive to disable people entirely with battlefield control, if not that limit their options and relevance to the fight, use effective buff spells, debuff enemies, summon more allies outside of combat, transform enemies into harmless things, transform your beatsticks into bloody hydras, predict the future in down time, aid in general party defense, or set piles upon piles of backup plans you can activate instantly.

Your weakness is that you picked an inefficient choice to favor at levels, and sacrificed caster levels into playing an archer which D&D tends to despise unless you optimize them hard.

If I were you? I'd look up conjuration, transmutation, and maybe some illusions if you want to put in heavy effort to start. If you read the spells carefully and start asking yourself what the spell can accomplish if used well you'll probably learn a lot of the good ones. If not feel free to come back for a basic list of starter goodies.

I'd like to think I know the buzzword spells. Summon Monster, Grease, Web, Glitterdust, Haste, Alter Self, X Image, Polymorph...you'll notice that most of my typical prepared spells list is the "good" stuff. It just seems like I don't need them most of the time, so I plink, and when I do need them, it's too late to turn back the tide.

I dunno. Maybe I should find a game where I can play a Wizard from level 1 and learn the ropes.


To put it simply:
You're being out-optimized/out-cheesed.

It's very obvious, reading through your descriptions of your teammates, that your DM is letting them get away with quite a few dubious things (EG, the Dwarven Defender's DR). It's also apparent that your DM is throwing woefully ineffective enemies at you.
Yes, a Shambling Mound can be dangerous, but it's a CR 6 plant with 60hp.
CR 6 vs a CR 10. Even as a (poorly built) Wizard, with multiple flaws in your sheet (You have two feats marked as Wizard bonus feats, W1 and W5, and neither of which, Expeditious Dodge and Precise Shot can be taken as Wizard bonus feat), you should be able to take it down with ease.

And it has a lot to do with how you use your spells. It says right on your sheet that you have Polymorph and Dimension Door. Both of those spells would have gotten you out of the situation in an instant.

Basically, you're a "peon" (by your words) because you can't Wizard. You just ain't doin' it right. (http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/1/13/Engineer_dominationengineer01.wav?t=20100709021808 )
It really doesn't help that your party members are cheesed to high-hell. It further doesn't help that your DM is not throwing the right things at you. You've got an ECL 12 Monk and an ECL 13 Half-Golem.
Why is he sending a CR 6 Shambling Mound at you?
That's DR 25/+2 is still /+2. Magic weapons go right through that, and at CR 12 many creature's natural attacks count as magic to go through that. Or have magic that does energy damage (Which completely ignores DR). He should be throwing Storm Giants and adult Chromatic Dragons at you.

I'm using the UA Wizard that trades Wizard bonus feats for Fighter Bonus Feats. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

He didn't send a single shambling mound; he sent 8 from all directions.

Thank you for your advice. You're correct. I'm just not doin' it right, and they're higher OP.

[ryu]

Never start with plinking if you aren't sure, and I do mean SURE, the enemy is no threat to the rest of the party. For a random encounter you should almost always use a spell or two to render it cake for the rest of the party to mop up. The key to wizard power is using your resources efficiently, and at the points they'll have most effect. This tends to be directly at the start of combat with a few exceptions. By rights you should have more than enough goodies to mop up four encounters with extra to spare at level ten so don't be stingy about it.

[Endarire]

When I felt ineffective as a save-or-else Wizard around your level, I focused on buffing my allies and using utility spells (like wall of force or telekinesis). I would, effectively, shake up the can of whoopass that was my melee party, and let them deal the smackdown.

There were times when I'd just defend or wait around.

[Slipperychicken]

1. You're a wizard, Harry Kazyan. Being squishy is part of the job. If someone grapples you, that's either a failure on the part of your melee buddies for letting enemies get to you, or a failure on your part for getting too close. Try to ride a Phantom Steed or something so you can move while casting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#mountedCombat) and stay far out of harm's way. Also consider buffing with stuff like displacement and mirror image if that isn't enough.

2. You're a wizard. Damage is not your strong suit, especially not weapon damage. And it doesn't need to be -your fighters have it covered quite nicely. If you ever use your bow, it should be when you feel like your fighters have things under control and you don't need to cast anything to make them win harder. Firing your bow is an admission that you have absolutely nothing useful to do with your action.

3. God blesses his servants, he does not enter the fray. Buff your fighters with things like (Overland) Flight (sorc/wiz 5), haste, displacement.

4. I find your lack of scrolls disturbing. Go through the monster manual (or just think of troublesome enemy types and situations), think "what do I do if I face this?", and then consider buying a scroll or other item if necessary. Even if you don't think you'll run into it this campaign, get a scroll anyway. As a scandanavian proverb says "Caution doesn't capsize the boat". (EDIT: If you want to bail the party out with the right spell for the job, scrolls are the way to go).

5. Can't you Polymorph into something immune to ability damage? Also, there's a spell in Libris Mortis called "Ghost Touch Weapon" (Cleric 4). Politely ask your favored soul to pick up some scrolls of it so you can let your fighters hurt them better. Or maybe just give your fighters Oils of Ghost Touch Weapon.

6. When Shambling Mounds encroach from all sides (assuming you have a chance to react before they're threatening you), try to cast Flight (or dimension door, or polymorph into a flying creature, or have a Phantom Steed Air Walk over the mounds), and GTFO. Or Solid Fog yourself to buy time. Or throw down a Silent Image of summoned creatures which they will try to fight through before hitting you. There's a lot of ways to deal with that with the spells available. Even Levitate could have gotten you out of that, assuming you were outside or the ceiling was high enough.

(EDIT: 7. Your build has lost 2 caster levels. The golden rule of optimization is "thou shalt not lose caster levels". This is one way that you are not wizard-ing properly.)

[Kazyan]

Never start with plinking if you aren't sure, and I do mean SURE, the enemy is no threat to the rest of the party. For a random encounter you should almost always use a spell or two to render it cake for the rest of the party to mop up. The key to wizard power is using your resources efficiently, and at the points they'll have most effect. This tends to be directly at the start of combat with a few exceptions. By rights you should have more than enough goodies to mop up four encounters with extra to spare at level ten so don't be stingy about it.

Thanks. I'm concerned about not having enough spells to go around, but I guess I can be more liberal. The Bear Warrior is only good for about 4 fights a day, anyway. Reviewing my last few encounters, I really need to stop plinking as my default reaction to seeing Bad Stuff so much.

I planned to use a Web + Plinking combo to solve encounters for this dungeon. First we ran into four undead in an open field, which the party mopped up without taking any damage whatsoever. Then the meleers fell down the pit to the next area and had to use the Ring of Lesser Vigor to heal the YESd6 falling damage; I summoned a Fiendish Medium Monstrous Centipede and hugged it as it crawled down instead of using a Fly. Then we ran into some ghosts and a power lion demon thingie. I dropped a Haste, but the ghosts still routed me and the Healer; the Bear panicked and fled into the lion, got possessed, and the lion basically ate him. The battlefield was clear shortly thereafter except for Golem and the lion, which went as I described above.


When I felt ineffective as a save-or-else Wizard around your level, I focused on buffing my allies and using utility spells (like wall of force or telekinesis). I would, effectively, shake up the can of whoopass that was my melee party, and let them deal the smackdown.

There were times when I'd just defend or wait around.

Alright, I'll do more buffing. One of the melee characters is immune to magic, though...


1. You're a wizard, Harry Kazyan. Being squishy is part of the job. If someone grapples you, that's either a failure on the part of your melee buddies for letting enemies get to you, or a failure on your part for getting too close. Try to ride a Phantom Steed or something so you can move while casting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#mountedCombat) and stay far out of harm's way.

2. You're a wizard. Damage is not your strong suit, especially not weapon damage. And it doesn't need to be -your fighters have it covered quite nicely. If you ever use your bow, it should be when you feel like your fighters have things under control and you don't need to cast anything to make them win harder. Firing your bow is an admission that you have absolutely nothing useful to do with your action.

3. God blesses his servants, he does not enter the fray. Buff your fighters with things like (Overland) Flight (sorc/wiz 5), haste, displacement.

4. I find your lack of scrolls disturbing. Go through the monster manual (or just think of troublesome enemy types and situations), think "what do I do if I face this?", and then consider buying a scroll or other item if necessary. Even if you don't think you'll run into it this campaign, get a scroll anyway. As a scandanavian proverb says "Caution doesn't capsize the boat".

5. Can't you Polymorph into something immune to ability damage? Also, there's a spell in Libris Mortis called "Ghost Touch Weapon" (Cleric 4). Politely ask your favored soul to pick up some scrolls of it so you can let your fighters hurt them better. Or maybe just give your fighters Oils of Ghost Touch Weapon.

6. When Shambling Mounds encroach from all sides (assuming you have a chance to react before they're threatening you), try to cast Flight (or dimension door, or polymorph into a flying creature, or have a Phantom Steed Air Walk over the mounds), and GTFO. Or Solid Fog yourself to buy time. Or throw down a Silent Image of summoned creatures which they will try to fight through before hitting you. There's a lot of ways to deal with that with the spells available. Even Levitate could have gotten you out of that, assuming you were outside or the ceiling was high enough.

1. Get a Phantom Steed; got it.

2-3. Mkay. Buff the gorramn bear instead of plinking.

4-5. I'm still new to the whole "I'm prepared for EVERYTHING" thing, but I'll do as you say. I need a fix for those Incorporeal creatures, for one. Those have come up twice. The bow seems to work, but...yeah, dice screw on the melee characters.

6. *shakes head* Yeah, I should have dropped my Fly at that point. Don't know what I was thinking.

Wizard is a learning process and I'm still new.

[Slipperychicken]

4-5. I'm still new to the whole "I'm prepared for EVERYTHING" thing, but I'll do as you say. I need a fix for those Incorporeal creatures, for one. Those have come up twice. The bow seems to work, but...yeah, dice screw on the melee characters.

6. *shakes head* Yeah, I should have dropped my Fly at that point. Don't know what I was thinking.

Wizard is a learning process and I'm still new.

When playing a wizard, you need to keep a cool head. Otherwise your brain isn't going to process your options correctly, and you'll likely end up casting the wrong spells or overlooking your lifesavers. Of course, if your GM is doing his job properly, keeping a cool head will be very difficult :smallbiggrin:

Being prepared for everything takes a bunch of time and energy which people who have lives usually aren't able to spend. Constantly look over your scrolls, spells known, and spells memorized for weaknesses. If there's a weakness (there's always a weakness), write it down on a "to-do" list, and find a way to get it fixed. Also try to constantly look at your options, the environment, and innovate new ways to deal with encounters. If you're doing it right, you will be bored because you will curbstomp most encounters with a spell or two.

Try to position yourself such that you are far from a potential engagement, and that your fighters always stay where the action is. Whenever your character is positioned on a battlemat, stay a healthy distance behind the fighters in case a fight breaks out. Let them do all the physical stuff like opening chests.

EDIT: Also, everyone makes mistakes, even Wizards :smalltongue: Just think of ways to do better next time.

[ben-zayb]

Did you ban Abjuration? Because some decent utility spells (Dispel Magic and Anticipate Teleportation) are absent in the list. Some BFC spells at later levels like Wall of Force and Howling chain could deal with Incorporeal stuff too.

I gotta agree that you're better off buffing, debuffing, and BFC=ing as well as providing utility spells like a God wizard; Haste alone is a big DPR increase; Dispels are obviously effective against magic-item users or casters; and Solid Fog or Grease effectively stalls multiple opponents.

But since you seem invested in Gish feats, I'm thinking that you really do want to contribute by means of blasting. In terms of what a Ranged Gish could do, you could probably try Polymorphing into fey types or outsider types if you could retrain to get the Otherworldly feat. A creature with high STR and DEX is ideal since you STR gives pure damage while DEX bumps up attack and AC. You could also WBL-mancespend money on a Splitting weapon (would take up your booty), effectively doubling your damage output.

Some viable Fey/Outsider:
Dryad: Str 10, Dex 19, NA+3
Gloura: Str 10, Dex 21, Flight, and (arguably) Bard 7 Casting for more buffs
Avoral: Str 15, Dex 23, NA+8, Flight
Osyluth: Str 21, Dex 21, NA+11
Erinyes: Str 21, Dex 21, NA+8
Ghaele: Str 25, Dex 12, NA+14, Flight, and (arguably) Cleric 14 Casting

If you're into losing more Wizard levels, also consider the usual Cloistered Cleric dip to get Knowledge Devotion and 2 other feats (Elf Domain?) to DCFS/retrain.

Not much I could add, as ranged gish isn't really my forte. But based on handbooks alone, a non-volley based, non-Swift hunter archer wouldn't be competing against melee in damage output anytime soon.

[XmonkTad]

For dealing damage in combat, you probably won't outshine the beatsticks. First (and this goes more to being a good party member than a good wizard) you must accept that your team is doing the heavy lifting for you, and you should let them do it even if it feels like they are having all the fun.
But know this: you are Tom Sawyer, and they are giving you gold so they can paint your fence.
You don't shine at rolling damage dice because you are beyond that. Remember to dominate out of combat. Every social encounter is a time to use suggestion to get what you want faster. Travel to the capital city is a fifth level spell slot. Mysteries are "gloves of object reading" or "contact other plane". You move the plot, and shape it to your liking.

In combat your function has been discussed by others. Buff with haste, grease and solid fog rest. Glitterdust what needs eyes to see, and if something seems nasty, wall of ice (or sand) will slow it down.

Also: Slipperychicken mentioned scrolls. They are great. Especially for golems that need one spell to disable their fast healing.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Congratulations you've discovered the difference between theorizing wizardry and practicing wizardry. It's a damn sight harder than most people expect after reading on a board like this for a while. :smallamused:

Another thing that I've noticed gets overlooked is the fact that spontaneous casting synergizes with gishing better than prepared. IMO, people tend to build wizard gishes because wizard > sorcerer without actually considering the fact that as a gish you'll mostly be casting the same handful of buffing spells over and over unless you're into persistomancy.

Honestly, your spell list reads more like a straight wizard than a gish. You probably ought to decide if you're going to continue trying to gish or just revert to being a more typical form of wizard. In either case, you should consider whether you're more interested in making it to swiftblade 9 for the extra actions or not. Between now and then you could instead take all 5 levels of war weaver if you meet the requirements and become a master of buffing yourself and your party or any of a number of other prestige classes that make you better at wizardry in general. 9 levels of swiftblade is undeniably quite potent, especially with the level 9 capstone, but it's definitely a gish class and you just don't seem to be all that gishy to me.

[Slipperychicken]

Another thing that I've noticed gets overlooked is the fact that spontaneous casting synergizes with gishing better than prepared. IMO, people tend to build wizard gishes because wizard > sorcerer without actually considering the fact that as a gish you'll mostly be casting the same handful of buffing spells over and over unless you're into persistomancy.


Personally, I've lately played a bunch of spontaneous non-gish casters because I'm lazy to conserve my cognitive resources for class. In an actual game where you want to spend more time playing than preparing, they're strong and easy to play. If you get enough variety in your spells, you can contribute to basically any fight. It also means that you don't have to make as many crucial decisions in your spell selection, which you might screw up.

Wizardry (and prepared spellcasting in general) relies heavily on your ability to rip strategies from the internet skill as a player, so I recommend trying to Sorcerer before you Wizard.

[AMFV]

Congratulations you've discovered the difference between theorizing wizardry and practicing wizardry. It's a damn sight harder than most people expect after reading on a board like this for a while. :smallamused:

Another thing that I've noticed gets overlooked is the fact that spontaneous casting synergizes with gishing better than prepared. IMO, people tend to build wizard gishes because wizard > sorcerer without actually considering the fact that as a gish you'll mostly be casting the same handful of buffing spells over and over unless you're into persistomancy.

Honestly, your spell list reads more like a straight wizard than a gish. You probably ought to decide if you're going to continue trying to gish or just revert to being a more typical form of wizard. In either case, you should consider whether you're more interested in making it to swiftblade 9 for the extra actions or not. Between now and then you could instead take all 5 levels of war weaver if you meet the requirements and become a master of buffing yourself and your party or any of a number of other prestige classes that make you better at wizardry in general. 9 levels of swiftblade is undeniably quite potent, especially with the level 9 capstone, but it's definitely a gish class and you just don't seem to be all that gishy to me.

I use Wizards for gishing, because I can build a gish that loses more caster levels and still gets 9ths, because that way I can decide that I don't need to gish if it's a situation that calls for something different, or switch up my spell list as necessary.

Sorcerers are better at certain kinds of gishing, but not quite in all kinds of gishing, you still wind up without certain spells you might want, and the loss of sanctified spells particularly luminous armor really hurts a gish build at least in my experience.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I use Wizards for gishing, because I can build a gish that loses more caster levels and still gets 9ths, because that way I can decide that I don't need to gish if it's a situation that calls for something different, or switch up my spell list as necessary.

Sorcerers are better at certain kinds of gishing, but not quite in all kinds of gishing, you still wind up without certain spells you might want, and the loss of sanctified spells particularly luminous armor really hurts a gish build at least in my experience.

Meh, it's one level's difference and 9th's really aren't that important in the grand scheme of things. You've survived for 16 levels without gate, astral projection (usually), time stop, shapechange, or wish (again, usually); you don't really need them for the last level or three either.

The need for non-gishy solutions can be addressed through scrolls, wands, and staves unless they come up so often that gishing was a bad call to begin with. Even so, the number of spells a spontaneous spell caster gets isn't quite as crippling as message boards would have people believe either. You can certainly get enough to handle most situations on at least the level of "good enough" since pretty much all combat is covered by buffing up and smashing face.

[Vizzerdrix]

I'm going to go through your sheet and toss out some comments. Take 'em or leave 'em.

Firstly, You've outgrown Mage Armor. Put it away and get some Twilight mithril thistledown githcrafted anything. Then get fortification on it. At your level AC is either all or nothing so use your armor as an enchantment and crystal platform. Look into dastanas as well.

Are Mobility and spring attack prereqs for something? If not then ask the DM about retraining. If you want to move and attack, look up Travel Devotion. Enjoy full ranged attacks+ full movement.

The ranger's list has a few gems for making ranged damage a worthy option, but you have to dig and hunt for them. Arrow Split alone will turn you into a turret of death. Find a way to get access to this list if you want to archery.

Wizarding =/= Gishing. you have to prepare for very different tactics. An example of this is grease. Sure it is one of the best battlefield control spells, but to an archer gish its also +4 to the targets AC from being prone.

Nerveskitter, True Strike (for when you have to melee), Mirror Image, Benign Transposition, Arrow Mind, and Baleful Transposition. These are spells I don't see on your list that you should be using almost every encounter.

[AMFV]

Meh, it's one level's difference and 9th's really aren't that important in the grand scheme of things. You've survived for 16 levels without gate, astral projection (usually), time stop, shapechange, or wish (again, usually); you don't really need them for the last level or three either.

The need for non-gishy solutions can be addressed through scrolls, wands, and staves unless they come up so often that gishing was a bad call to begin with. Even so, the number of spells a spontaneous spell caster gets isn't quite as crippling as message boards would have people believe either. You can certainly get enough to handle most situations on at least the level of "good enough" since pretty much all combat is covered by buffing up and smashing face.

It's certainly not a crippling thing, I would say that it just offers that slight bit of extra flexibility in builds, since you're a spell level ahead and that does actually matter. Sorcerers can make some very good gishes, even having builds at which only they excel. I'm just saying that they're not the premier gish either. Both classes can build quite adequate gishes and it's a matter of preference.

I strongly prefer wizard casting, because I want to be able to both gish and then roll as a standard wizard when necessary, also I like having lots of nifty little tricks up my sleeve. Furthermore I like the thinking and strategy involved in the preparation game, it means that my success or failure that day is more dependent on my planning than anything else.

[Aquillion]

But I'm having difficulty with the pressure of playing a class notorious for being able and expected to do everything perfectly.It's worth pointing out that while the Swiftblade is very decent as far as Gish PRCs go, it's still a gish -- that is to say, it's not going to be quite as powerful as well-played wizard. The first rule of playing the ultimate superwizard is to never give up caster levels, and a Swiftblade gives up one at level 1.

Normally it wouldn't be a big deal (even in a highly-optimized group, a Swiftblade should still be able to keep up), but if your other party members are highly-optimized and you're expecting to be Batman the unstoppable with a gish build, it's worth pointing out that you've given up some of what makes the Wizard so overwhelming in exchange for combat options that will never really compare.

(The Swiftblade does also give you other advantages that help your spellcasting -- extra actions are never a bad thing -- but ultimately caster levels are more important if you want to be good at magic, which should be self-evident. So you shouldn't feel you have to live up to some sort of expectation of ultimate wizardly power, because you're not really building towards it.)

[Tar Palantir]

Are Mobility and spring attack prereqs for something?

Pre-reqs for Swiftblade.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's certainly not a crippling thing, I would say that it just offers that slight bit of extra flexibility in builds, since you're a spell level ahead and that does actually matter. Sorcerers can make some very good gishes, even having builds at which only they excel. I'm just saying that they're not the premier gish either. Both classes can build quite adequate gishes and it's a matter of preference.Naturally they both make adequate gishes but sorcerers do it just a little better since that extra flexibility that wizards get just don't contribute to gishery at all. A wizard may make a better overall character but not a better gish.


I strongly prefer wizard casting, because I want to be able to both gish and then roll as a standard wizard when necessary, also I like having lots of nifty little tricks up my sleeve. Furthermore I like the thinking and strategy involved in the preparation game, it means that my success or failure that day is more dependent on my planning than anything else. A gish makes an adequate wizard in a pinch but a wizard built for straight wizardry will do it immensely better every time just like a wizard built to be a straight wizard can gish in a pinch but simply can't keep up with a built gish.

It's a rare circumstance that calls for either a built gish or an optimized wizard but when it comes up the other simply won't do.

All in all though, this isn't a discussion I particularly want to draw out. How 'bout we just agree to disagree here and call it a day?

[2ndchosen1]

since i am certainly not the half-golem in your group and have totally not made an account after seeing this. I'll give my stab at it after seeing what others gave.

When it comes to preparation note what the DM has hard-ons for; generally this falls to undead, constructs, and outsiders as they are easy for your DM to waive at the moment but are also mainstays of any DM. Scrolls, wands, and staves are indeed your friend. Occasionally your DM will send the odd thing like the shambling mounds at you but they will likely never take up the bulk of his forces. Start at his core races and then spread out your plans

Do note your DM is capable of switching his tactics within 2-3 encounters from almost downing your half-golem with 24 Str damage but not threatening the monk at all to outright killing the bear monk with the demon lion with little to no effect to your golem player. This has caused each player to have at least one casualty for not adjusting their strategy correctly to the situation, be it some form of combat, diplomacy, or traps.

Rule 3 is strong (tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GrandTabletopRulesList)

[AMFV]

Naturally they both make adequate gishes but sorcerers do it just a little better since that extra flexibility that wizards get just don't contribute to gishery at all. A wizard may make a better overall character but not a better gish.

A gish makes an adequate wizard in a pinch but a wizard built for straight wizardry will do it immensely better every time just like a wizard built to be a straight wizard can gish in a pinch but simply can't keep up with a built gish.

It's a rare circumstance that calls for either a built gish or an optimized wizard but when it comes up the other simply won't do.

All in all though, this isn't a discussion I particularly want to draw out. How 'bout we just agree to disagree here and call it a day?

Well you're not as good as a straight wizard, but you're still better than a sorcerer at being a wizard in a pinch. Also since you don't have to use a lot of spells with metamagic which is where sorcerers really shine. To be honest they have different advantages. But a wizard makes exactly as good a gish as a sorcerer, and is better in most other respects.

[cakellene]

What did 25/+2 get updated to for 3.5?

[TuggyNE]

What did 25/+2 get updated to for 3.5?

Iron golems have 15/adamantine, so that sounds about right.

[2ndchosen1]

What did 25/+2 get updated to for 3.5?

i didn't find anything
even tried the D&D v.3.5 Accessory Update Booklet (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a) which tries to update MM2 only real change it presented to half golem was a DR 5/adamantine for Flesh which was formally 5/silver.
not that i would be interested in this line of thought since i am most certainly not his half-golem

Edit: potentially it should be the actual iron golem's DR? still not what they have

[cakellene]

i didn't find anything
even tried the D&D v.3.5 Accessory Update Booklet (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a) which tries to update MM2 only real change it presented to half golem was a DR 5/adamantine for Flesh which was formally 5/silver.
not that i would be interested in this line of thought since i am most certainly not his half-golem

Edit: potentially it should be the actual iron golem's DR? still not what they have

It could be argued they have no DR based on it not being listed in the update document.

[nedz]

You need tactics:

Against the Compost Heaps:
You could have tried Hit and Run, by casting Fly.
You could have tried Divide and Conquer, by casting Solid Fog (or any Wall type spell) so that the Fighters would only have to fight half of them at a time.

Against the Ghosts
These are quite hard because you really need a Cleric, which you don't seem to have. I'm not counting the FS here, mainly due to the way it is being played — Ordained Champion is a melle class :smallsigh:. Magic Missile is probably your best spell, but this is a rubbish spell really. Archery, if it is working against them, probably is a better option here.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Btw, if you want to improve your DPS you should look into getting your bow enhanced with the splitting property and/or picking up a wand of arrowsplit though you may need to invest in a way to use the latter.

Splitting doubles your damage by doubling the number of attacks you make with your bow. For each attack you can make your arrow splits into two identical arrows each with their own attack roll, though both must strike the same target.

Arrowsplit causes each arrow to split into 1d4+1 arrows for an average of 3 times normal damage on that first shot and can, at least theoretically, be combined with splitting to net an average of 7 attacks on your primary shot.

That should get your damage back into the ballpark for your level.

[Kazyan]

Okay, I think I'll focus more on gishing now. Bite of the Wererat, Eternal Wand of Arrowsplit in a gauntlet when I can afford it (I'll ask the DM about applying it to the energy bow's arrows), and +X Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt with a Least Iron Ward Diamond. Splitting at higher levels, when it's affordable. I'll tell the Favored Soul to get Magic Vestment as a spell known for my AC and such, which will save on healing anyway if lend out my Leeser Rod of Extend to make it all-day.

Lower level slots might be utility spells or Web, which would work well to let me plink stuck enemies to death.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kazyan
I'm feeling frustrated. Wizards are supposed to be gods; why am I a peon?


Originally Posted by Kelb Panthera
Congratulations you've discovered the difference between theorizing wizardry and practicing wizardry. It's a damn sight harder than most people expect after reading on a board like this for a while.

This, absolutely. Board posts are rarely marked with a "works best in TO" disclaimer, and it's rarely acknowledged that in an actual game, a lot of internet assumptions just won't happen.

All too often there are posters who primarily want to prove their dominance in theoryspace, without ever admitting things might be different around any particular table. This ends up creating skewed perspectives and unfounded expectations.


Originally Posted by Slipperychicken
Personally, I've lately played a bunch of spontaneous non-gish casters.... In an actual game where you want to spend more time playing than preparing, they're strong and easy to play.

....Wizardry (and prepared spellcasting in general) relies heavily on your ability to rip strategies from the internet skill as a player, so I recommend trying to Sorcerer before you Wizard.

And this, to me, looks like some very good advice overall.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Okay, I think I'll focus more on gishing now. Bite of the Wererat, Eternal Wand of Arrowsplit in a gauntlet when I can afford it (I'll ask the DM about applying it to the energy bow's arrows), and +X Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt with a Least Iron Ward Diamond. Splitting at higher levels, when it's affordable. I'll tell the Favored Soul to get Magic Vestment as a spell known for my AC and such, which will save on healing anyway if lend out my Leeser Rod of Extend to make it all-day.

Lower level slots might be utility spells or Web, which would work well to let me plink stuck enemies to death.

You'll want a regular wand of arrowsplit, 2/day just isn't often enough, but otherwise that sounds like a plan.

[Kazyan]

Eternal Wand because I have no way to activate a regular one; Eternal Wands are fair game for all arcane casters.

[Than]

Replying to a page 1 post, but still relevant.

Magic Immunity only applies to spells that are affected by SR. Magic Immunity is also effectively infinite SR which can be lowered for one round as a standard action. Just use a free action to tell them to accept a spell then delay/ready action until just after their turn.

[Slipperychicken]

Replying to a page 1 post, but still relevant.

Magic Immunity only applies to spells that are affected by SR. Magic Immunity is also effectively infinite SR which can be lowered for one round as a standard action. Just use a free action to tell them to accept a spell then delay/ready action until just after their turn.

One GM of mine once disallowed that because "you can't lower infinity". Explain it to the GM more like turning your spell resistance off for a turn.

[ericgrau]

Spells:

Get empowered magic missile for incorporeal foes.
The freedom of movement from heart of water continues for a few rounds after you activate it
Get false life or the temp hp heart (heart of earth?) for hp. At your level probably false life.
Flame arrow is good for your bow, and if you're in a dungeon you can cast it at the entrance, before combat.
Save your dimension door for escaping emergencies and getting to range
Get 24 hours of greater magic weapon on your bow.
You can also buff allies for 24 hours, spell slots permitting. Mage armor is great on the monk and cheap.
Limit your utility, buff & defense spells, even flight, or get them in swift or immediate or hour/level form. You don't have time. That means you get haste and maybe dimension door, everything else must go. 10 min/levels are for casting at dungeon entrances; in the wilderness you prepare something else. You can leave a slot open and fill it in 15 minutes IIRC, if you're not sure if a dungeon is coming, but usually just ask the DM if you're less than a day away from your destination.


Gear:

Get several arrows of X enemy bane, various metal types to overcome DR, and ghost touch.
Get level 1-2 scrolls of nearly every utility spell to be ready for random situations. A wand of invisibility is nice too, to spam on the party and bypass some challenges.
Get a couple level 1 scrolls of buffs for very rare times when you get more than 1 buffing round. Probably shield.


The thing with non-actions, swifts/immediates and gear is that they stack with regular actions. A +1 to hit and damage may not seem like much, but on top of +1d6 damage, hp, bane damage and regular damage you become a beast. The more actions and ongoing buffs you can stack at one time the better.

Being all powerful mainly happens in TO. Most games don't work that way. You have to play smart, learn your options and don't expect it to come to you automatically. Just to reasonably well. Otherwise you need to play something simpler.

[Talya]

for the record... I hate playing wizards. every other caster is more fun for me. Sorcerers require little tactical genius, just strategic planning. Druids can fall back on their animal companion or wildshape. even clerics have a d8 hit die and heavy armor. wizards have one thing. it's an awesome thing, but it requires a certain mindset to use it effectively, and I don't think that way.

you may be the same.

[Seffbasilisk]

It seems that you're rather unoptimized for the group you're playing in.

So, don't sweat it. Have a few big-city moves, but otherwise expect them to haul the majority of the cart.

Haste is fun, and should be a staple as a swiftblade.

Additionally, Ring of Vigor? There's custom magic items? If I were you I'd load up on that. Heck, go wild if it was sold to the DM at a low price and get yourself a use-activated True-Strike item. Now you won't be missing.

Think of fun combinations.

[Kazyan]

for the record... I hate playing wizards. every other caster is more fun for me. Sorcerers require little tactical genius, just strategic planning. Druids can fall back on their animal companion or wildshape. even clerics have a d8 hit die and heavy armor. wizards have one thing. it's an awesome thing, but it requires a certain mindset to use it effectively, and I don't think that way.

you may be the same.

Well, I'm stuck with my lot regardless. Next time I gish, it will be a Sorcerer. In the meantime, I'm going to learn how to Wizard.


It seems that you're rather unoptimized for the group you're playing in.

So, don't sweat it. Have a few big-city moves, but otherwise expect them to haul the majority of the cart.

Haste is fun, and should be a staple as a swiftblade.

Additionally, Ring of Vigor? There's custom magic items? If I were you I'd load up on that. Heck, go wild if it was sold to the DM at a low price and get yourself a use-activated True-Strike item. Now you won't be missing.

Think of fun combinations.

Yeah, we're overly liberal with the custom item creation rules; abuse happens.

A ring of at-will Arrowsplit would be 30,000 gp. I'll see if the DM is okay with that.

I'll do my best to have mostly buffs, with a few Webs, Hastes, and a DimDoor or Dimension Hop. Need to fix typical prepared spells.

[Endarire]

Normally in 3.5, magic immunity means unbeatable spell resistance (SR). A creature can, as a standard action, willingly lower its SR.

And ask your GM if you can rebuild your character into a team buffer. Wizard3/War Weaver3/Incantatrix3/War Weaver+2/Spellguard of Silverymoon4 or 5/Incantatrix+X is a solid build that lets your entire team be buffed all day long with a single spell and lots of Spellcraft.

For higher, higher power, be a Human and go Red Wizard5 (Dungeon Master's Guide) or Hathran5 (Player's Guide to Faerun). You can get a base caster level of 40 on all your spells for all day long!

You can enter War Weaver after 3 Wizard levels if you take Sanctum Spell (Complete Arcane). I recommend spending the 3000G to get the Otuygh Hole wondrous location from Complete Scoundrel so you can save a feat slot by not picking Iron Will.

[Aquillion]

This, absolutely. Board posts are rarely marked with a "works best in TO" disclaimer, and it's rarely acknowledged that in an actual game, a lot of internet assumptions just won't happen.

All too often there are posters who primarily want to prove their dominance in theoryspace, without ever admitting things might be different around any particular table. This ends up creating skewed perspectives and unfounded expectations.As I mentioned, though, it's also important to remember that a gish -- a caster / fighter hybrid like the Swiftblade -- isn't what people here are usually talking about when they talk about overwhelmingly powerful wizards.

Gish are usually significantly less powerful than wizards, and generally require a lot more work than most classes to make and play right. Swiftblades are a decent gish class, but they don't change the core problem: You only have so many actions, so you generally have to actively work to put both your melee (or, in this case, archery) ability and your spellcasting ability to use. Those two abilities don't generally synergize very well, either -- a good gish class (again, like the swiftblade) will provide some things that help with both of these problems, but you're still basically putting a lot of work into simply making your character functional in the way you want it to be.

(Sure, you can buff yourself, but you'd be more powerful, generally, playing a pure wizard and buffing the fighter, so you don't have to worry about balancing your actions between support-casting and meleeing / archering yourself. By the time WotC made Swiftblade they realized this, which is why it gets a bunch of boosts to its self-buffs, but you're still suffering from the fact that at any given time you're probably going to be working in one role -- caster or fighter -- and you won't be as good at it as someone who dedicated themselves to just that role.)

Falling behind a highly-optimized group while playing a gish is not very surprising, because it takes a lot more work and optimization-fu to make a good gish than it does to play a good wizard.

If you want to play a hybrid fighter / caster in an optimized group and don't feel you're good at optimization yourself, I'd suggest you consider straight Druid or Cleric instead -- they might not be exactly what you're looking for, but it's worth taking a look.

[Vanitas]

Well, custom magical items and templates with LA: - are unbalanced, so it's not your wizard's fault.

[Eaglejarl]

Moving away from the question of mechanical elements, probably the single thing that will make you powerful is preparation. There's a lot you can do with little or no magic. And when you do use magic, look for ways to take it out of context. Some simple thoughts:

- If you want a secure position to snipe / cast from in combat, cast Rope Trick. Climb up into the space, lean out, and shoot. You have at least 50% cover and you aren't reachable from the ground.

- Learn your party member's character sheets inside and out. What items / abilities do they have that you can synergize with? I played Champions at one point; we had a party tactic where our martial artist (who had ridiculously high to-hit but low damage) would Martial Throw (*) an opponent to one of our energy blasters or the flying brick. Once the opponent was in the process of being Thrown his AC (*) was essentially zero, so our energy projectors and flying brick (high damage, low to-hit) could smash him.

- Think about ways to take the adventure sideways in a way that benefits you. The adventure the DM is setting up is about cleaning out a nest of thieves in the city, and you're mostly in it for the money because you need to buy some magic items? How about using magic (Fabricate, Major Creation, Wall of <X>, whatever) to create some stuff and sell it? Or generally hire out your services? Or think about what the Duke might need (An ambassador? A bodyguard for an ambassador? Someone to create the illusionary decorations for his gala?) and do that.

Alternately, you can pump up the combat if you want XP. Your DM has set you on a "protect this shipment from the Thieves Guild" mission? How about hiring some caravan guards while you go off and just destroy the Thieves Guild and take their stuff instead?

With some forethought and some proactiveness on the nature of your adventures, you can become a dominant member of your party, even if you aren't the best combatant.


Your DM will probably have a little shock at first, but will eventually love it that you're taking the lead on starting adventures.


(*) Not the actual Champions terms, of course.

[Spuddles]

Okay, I think I'll focus more on gishing now. Bite of the Wererat, Eternal Wand of Arrowsplit in a gauntlet when I can afford it (I'll ask the DM about applying it to the energy bow's arrows), and +X Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt with a Least Iron Ward Diamond. Splitting at higher levels, when it's affordable. I'll tell the Favored Soul to get Magic Vestment as a spell known for my AC and such, which will save on healing anyway if lend out my Leeser Rod of Extend to make it all-day.

Lower level slots might be utility spells or Web, which would work well to let me plink stuck enemies to death.

Dont spend the gold on that shirt unless you have something particular in mind to put on it. It's strictly inferior to putting mage armor & luminous armor on yourself and using a few heart of X spells to get the fortification. Get pearls of power instead.

Mage Armor protects you against ghosts and luminous armor imposes a -4 penalty to melee attacks vs you.

Oh, and your heart of water protects you from grapple for a whole round via a freedom of movement effect. That means you could have walked out of the shambling mound hug, taken an AoO, ignored the attempt to grapple, got out of range, and cast fly. Or retreated further behind someone. Really, with overland flight, which you should always have up, you could have just retreated vertically.

[Optimator]

The Knowledge Devotion feat with Collector of Stories skill trick is pretty good for archers, as Wizards get all the knowledges and archery benefits from bonus damage like that. Use the Collision, Holy/Unholy, and Wounding weapon enhancements for great effect (Wounding doesn't appear on the RANDOM ranged weapon special ability table but the description does not carry the melee-only caveat. It's legal and MEAN). A batch of Binding arrows will come in handy. Elemental arrows and Bane arrows too, along with holy silver, holy cold iron, and adamant arrows.

If you can swing it, get Deadly Precision feat from Pathfinder or ask your DM to take some sort of power-shot feat, like the Peerless Archer ability. Using True Strike in conjunction with it could be worth while. Targeting Ray might be worth it too. Buffs like Heroics, Heroism, Good Hope, and Enlarge Person boost weapon damage too. Get a bow with a +14 draw and Draconic Polymorph into a War Troll. Any spell that gives a weapon a temporary elemental damage effect will be handy.

Leadership allowed? Bard cohort!

The idea is going to be to stack as much bonus damage as you can and then fire off as many shots as you can via Haste or Speed weapons with Rapid Shot. The philosophy is pretty much the same as sneak-attacking. You won't have much room for archery feats so Point Blank, Precise, and Rapid Shot may be all you can get. Obviously this all unfolds more and more as you level and have more spare spell slots.

Unfortunately, a lot of the best archery spells are divine, on the Druid, Cleric, Ranger, and Assassin lists. Show your DM the page about researching custom spells and try to make arcane versions of Wind Tunnel, Arrow Split, Arrowstorm, Hunter's Mercy, Hunter's Eye, Sniper's Eye, etc. You may have a harder time with Divine Agility and Blessed Aim, however.

[Averis Vol]

Just a note on the defenses part; Dwarf ancestors from MMII is a low CR outsider that when shifted into gives +15 Nat armor. Pair this with scintillating scales and you are in the low 30s of AC with an awesome touch AC.

As for offense, try Greater magic weapon and some other damage buffs. I think if you get bronzewood arrows you can cast Spikes on the whole lot to get a flat +CL (max +20) on each one.

EDIT: Also, while under haste you have 40% miss chance, thats a really good chance to just not get hit.

[Spuddles]

Has anyone mentioned Raptor Arrows, from MIC?