Half Baked Druid Ideas: The Thread

[eggynack]

So, in my travels, I have come upon several druid related things which look like they could be the platform for ridiculousness, but as of yet they have yielded little to nothing. In the interests of the growth of druidic knowledge, I seek to post the first half of several druid combos, and why I think they have potential, and then you fellows may post second halves, if they exist. Alternatively, if you have the first half of a mighty druid combo, that could also prove interesting. So, without further ado, half baked druid ideas.

Aspect of the Earth Hunter (SpC, 16): This 6th level spell turns you into a bulette, but more importantly for our purposes, it turns you into a magical beast. As aspect of the wolf has shown us, type changes occasionally open up the door to borkedness, but unlike aspect of the earth hunter, no such borkedness has yet been found. In particular, I've never found a spell which requires you to be a magical beast, which doesn't also let you accomplish the same aim as an animal, thus opening aspect of the wolf up as an option, and making this spell pointless. So, the goal is stuff that you need to be a magical beast for, but that you can't be an animal for.

Stuff thus far: rapidstrike

Megalodon Empowerment (Storm, 118): This 8th level spell does a bunch of really pointless stuff, and it also does one piece of not-pointless stuff. That thing is that it allows you to take on animal forms one above your usual maximum, which opens up pre-epic access to gargantuan animal forms. One apparent difficulty is that this removes casting, but it looks like you can take on the form of the killer to wipe away the duration after going gargantuan, and then you'll be left large (gargantuan) and in charge (casting spells). The real trouble is, there aren't many useful gargantuan animal forms. Thus far, I've only found spinosaurus, which grants frightful presence, and roc, which is neat. There are others, but I've only seen the ones on monsterfinder, and that's only six creatures, one of whom (the eponymous megalodon) being a difficult to reach 24 HD. So, I seek more of those.

Ghost Companion (Ghost, 53) + Aspect of the Wolf (SpC, 16) + X: This one is pretty simple, and mostly done. Ghost companion and aspect of the wolf, when combined, let you become a ghost for days. However, before the end of that period, you need to bring yourself back lest you sleep eternally. Unfortunately, most options cost a level, which is a rather untenable long term proposition. Thus far, the best option I've found is cocoon, which is unfortunately all the way up at eighth level, and it limits you to a week of ghosting at a time. That might actually be the best option for this, but input is nice.

Humanoid Wild Shape (CV, 40): The seventh fangshields druid substitution level grants medium humanoid forms, and that seems like it could be vaguely useful somehow. Currently, my list of potential options is limited to troglodyte for stench, and githzerai+enhance wild shape for SR. Not great, in other words. There could be things out there. Things and stuff.

So, that's the list as it stands. I might theoretically add more half baked ideas, if I find them, but as is it is what it is. Perhaps, with time, we will arrive at a greater baked good.

Edit: Forgot to note, sufficiently nifty ideas'll grant credit for said ideas in the mighty druid based project I'm working on. It's a thing of some nature.

[Saintheart]

I'd class the entire Blighter prestige class as a half-baked Druid idea, but that's another story :smallcool:

[eggynack]

It certainly is both of those things. I might add fey ring (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a)to the list. I've thus far only found stormrider and spirit of the land as reasonable fey calling options. The latter especially is some crazy power.

[Spuddles]

Magical Beast gets you the ability to qualify for Rapidstrike.

[bekeleven]

It certainly is both of those things. I might add fey ring (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a)to the list. I've thus far only found stormrider and spirit of the land as reasonable fey calling options. The latter especially is some crazy power.

Oreads can cast stone tell at will, as well as Move Earth and some other fun spells. The spell can also be a (slow) save-or-die since if you move an Oread a mile from its host mountain it dies within a day.

[eggynack]

Magical Beast gets you the ability to qualify for Rapidstrike.
That's a pretty nifty one, though these temporary prerequisites deals are always a little on the dubious side. Probably deserves some form of a mention, and maybe other monster feats have magical beast prerequisites too.

Edit:
Oreads can cast stone tell at will, as well as Move Earth and some other fun spells. The spell can also be a (slow) save-or-die since if you move an Oread a mile from its host mountain it dies within a day.
Huh. I wonder how I missed that one, given how often I bring up the SNA VI thing. The day till death thing shouldn't be much of an issue, as it's hours/level in duration.

Double edit: It looks like the only other feats with magical beast as a prerequisite are mighty roar and greater mighty roar, but those have animal type as a prerequisite. However, they also have large size as a prerequisite, and wolves are decidedly medium. Double-however, animal growth is a thing. Truly this is a thinker. Fortunately, or perhaps unfortunately, those feats aren't really worth it.

[WinWin]

Skulk is a decent, stealthy form for Humanoid Wild Shape.

[avr]

Humanoid forms include these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168636). I can't take credit for any of them.

[eggynack]

Skulk is a decent, stealthy form for Humanoid Wild Shape.
I don't think those skill bonuses stick around in a wild shape. It would be pretty sweet were that not the case.

[ben-zayb]

Can't you grab Humanoid SUs from feats (that non-psionic Savage Species one, maybe)? If yes, that's a whole new set of fun stuff, what with Illumians, Changelings, and other more broken SUs

[eggynack]

Can't you grab Humanoid SUs from feats (that non-psionic Savage Species one, maybe)? If yes, that's a whole new set of fun stuff, what with Illumians and Changelings, other more broken SUs
Assume supernatural ability? Yeah, it's a possibility, but it's just such a massive nuclear device of a feat, and I'm pretty sure that there are better things you can do with it.

[bekeleven]

The day till death thing shouldn't be much of an issue, as it's hours/level in duration.The book doesn't specify that they stop dying if they are moved back. You could interpret it that way, but I don't see it in the text.

I kind of like the idea of summoning an oread to do some stone-based thing, then you summon it, and it starts weeping because you just doomed it. Even if its default attitude is friendly.

[eggynack]

The book doesn't specify that they stop dying if they are moved back. You could interpret it that way, but I don't see it in the text.

I kind of like the idea of summoning an oread to do some stone-based thing, then you summon it, and it starts weeping because you just doomed it. Even if its default attitude is friendly.
Ah. Yeah, that's pretty much the saddest thing ever. "Well, I figured that either I could prep all of those spells myself, because they're all on my list, or I could be slightly more efficient and get you to do it. It's basically between my slots and your life, and you know how it is." I mean, it's actually much more efficient, so it's a good calling, but it's seriously a jerk move.

[MonochromeTiger]

Ah. Yeah, that's pretty much the saddest thing ever. "Well, I figured that either I could prep all of those spells myself, because they're all on my list, or I could be slightly more efficient and get you to do it. It's basically between my slots and your life, and you know how it is." I mean, it's actually much more efficient, so it's a good calling, but it's seriously a jerk move.

which is why evil is much more effective than good, why stop to worry about the lives of others you don't care about when you could be getting an advantage?

[WinWin]

I don't think those skill bonuses stick around in a wild shape. It would be pretty sweet were that not the case.

Are you sure? My reading of the Fangshields Wild Shape indicates that the Druid gains the racial traits of the new form (referencing polymorph, which references alter self). I have no idea what that sentence actually means in the context of the Alternate Form rules, especially after Skip revisited polymorph, but you can probably guess how I choose to interperet it.

Without the skill bonuses, the only ability from Skulk you may be able to gain is their (ex) stealth ability, which is probably not worth dropping a 4th level spell for.

[eggynack]

which is why evil is much more effective than good, why stop to worry about the lives of others you don't care about when you could be getting an advantage?
Yeah, guiltless oread calling is certainly an advantage of the evil route. Still, I'm of the opinion that neutral good is the mechanically superior alignment option for a druid. Good druids get stuff, and the list of evil druid spells is kinda mediocre. There're a few decent ones, but probably nothing that makes up for the ability to cast luminous armor on yourself, and that's just the beginning.

Edit:
Are you sure? My reading of the Fangshields Wild Shape indicates that the Druid gains the racial traits of the new form (referencing polymorph, which references alter self). I have no idea what that sentence actually means in the context of the Alternate Form rules, especially after Skip revisited polymorph, but you can probably guess how I choose to interperet it.

Without the skill bonuses, the only ability from Skulk you may be able to gain is their (ex) stealth ability, which is probably not worth dropping a 4th level spell for.
That's a weird thing, certainly. Offhand, I'd argue that champions of valor was published prior to the wild shape errata, so the ability was worded with polymorph in mind, and the switch to alternate form would cover both sources. Still, humanoid wild shape isn't wild shape, and that racial bonus thing is its own game object, sot it could work on that level. It's a pretty ambiguous situation. My opinion is that wild shape holds consistent across books, and that the PHB has precedence, but if it doesn't work like that, I may need to reassess the ability a little.

[WinWin]

You have a point, in that the fact that the ability exists as an exception to the rules, does not mean that it supposed to be an exception. Without errata, the function of Wild Shape (humanoid) will probably houseruled differently by different DM's.

As for more humanoid forms, you may wish to check our the stats for a basic Inspired from Eberron, as well as some of the elite humanoids in MM4. Whether these are acceptable forms for Wild Shape (being elites) is another grey area. They are probably not typical members of the race, just racially themed NPC's designed to make a DM's job easier.

If they are valid forms, they may be worth looking at more closely. Gaining some of their (ex) abilities through the Enhance Wild Shape spell could be a worthwhile investment.

edit: Just to clarify, I am not attempting to imply that my reading of Humanoid Wild Shape is the correct one, and all other readings are houserules. I don't know how it correctly fits into the existing Alternate Form rules. I would houserule it to work like Alter Self personally, but I also recognise that other people might treat it differently in their games.

[Totema]

If we are free to discuss any insane Druid ideas, then I've always been a fan of the concept of flying to a great altitude and then wild shaping into a colossal creature, such as a whale, to crush my enemies. And everything else below me.

Is this easy to do? Hell no, you would need to have access to colossal creatures to make this possible in the first place, and that's an epic level feat. Powerful? Still no, the online SRD has some fairly disappointing numbers for the damage dealt by a falling colossal object. (Which I can't be bothered to look up right now.) So I would need a specific feat progression, along with freaking epic levels, to deal the damage of a mid-game blaster. Not exactly efficient.

But is it cool, funny and fluffy? You bet your ass it is.

[Eldariel]

Wildshaping into Human should grant you the bonus feat. There's always that.

[eggynack]

If we are free to discuss any insane Druid ideas, then I've always been a fan of the concept of flying to a great altitude and then wild shaping into a colossal creature, such as a whale, to crush my enemies. And everything else below me.

Is this easy to do? Hell no, you would need to have access to colossal creatures to make this possible in the first place, and that's an epic level feat. Powerful? Still no, the online SRD has some fairly disappointing numbers for the damage dealt by a falling colossal object. (Which I can't be bothered to look up right now.) So I would need a specific feat progression, along with freaking epic levels, to deal the damage of a mid-game blaster. Not exactly efficient.

But is it cool, funny and fluffy? You bet your ass it is.
It's definitely doable pre-epic, though I'm not sure how useful it is. You go aspect of the wolf, cast animal growth on yourself, wild shape into a bird form, fly to the desired location, cast megalodon empowerment, and become a whale. It seems like it could be decent if you take the actual physics of it into consideration, and maybe explode some big locations, but as a combat combo, it's a bit too involved.


Wildshaping into Human should grant you the bonus feat. There's always that.
Are you sure that's actually a thing you'd get from it? Seems a bit dubious.

[Eldariel]

Are you sure that's actually a thing you'd get from it? Seems a bit dubious.

Now that you mention it, it actually doesn't work with Wild Shape. Turns out Alternate Form lacks the clause Alter Self has on the subject. Sorry about that, somehow I had it somewhere in the back of my mind that they both had the same wording on that front. Hell, with the rewording of A Thousand Faces it can't be done with that either.

[eggynack]

Now that you mention it, it actually doesn't work with Wild Shape. Turns out Alternate Form lacks the clause Alter Self has on the subject. Sorry about that, somehow I had it somewhere in the back of my mind that they both had the same wording on that front. Hell, with the rewording of A Thousand Faces it can't be done with that either.
Ah well. Still, I'm never quite sure how these racial feats are categorized, in terms of special ability type. If they're Ex abilities, as they're often claimed to be, then you might be able to get into even more shenanigans than usual with enhance wild shape.

[WinWin]

The various Alter Self/Polymorph handbooks break this down:

Both Alternate Form and Polymorph grant you the basic movement, attack modes and (ex) Special Attacks of your new form.

Neither grants the (ex) Special Qualities of the new form. Enhance Wild Shape can allow this.

Polymorph and Alter Self grant appropriate racial traits of the new form.

What some people argue is that 'Racial Traits' covers all monster traits that are not listed explicitly as Special Attacks or Special Qualities. An example of this would be Low Light Vision, which is an ability that is often not referenced in the Special Qualities section of the monster stat block.

Alternate Form does not grant the racial traits of the new form*.

*Except when it does ;)

[eggynack]

The various Alter Self/Polymorph handbooks break this down:

Both Alternate Form and Polymorph grant you the basic movement, attack modes and (ex) Special Attacks of your new form.

Neither grants the (ex) Special Qualities of the new form. Enhance Wild Shape can allow this.

Polymorph and Alter Self grant appropriate racial traits of the new form.

What some people argue is that 'Racial Traits' covers all monster traits that are not listed explicitly as Special Attacks or Special Qualities. An example of this would be Low Light Vision, which is an ability that is often not referenced in the Special Qualities section of the monster stat block.

Alternate Form does not grant the racial traits of the new form*.

*Except when it does ;)
So, your stance is that you can pick up the human bonus feat with a casting of enhance wild shape? Maybe other bonus feats too, like weapon finesse on a desmodu hunting bat. Potentially nifty.

[Thrawn183]

I'm not sure just how much you change with changing your type, I could be wrong.

Assuming I'm not, what about the defensive usefullness of changing your type? A few things only target humanoids (Charm Person, et. al.) or a specific subtype like ranger's favored enemy.

[eggynack]

I'm not sure just how much you change with changing your type, I could be wrong.

Assuming I'm not, what about the defensive usefullness of changing your type? A few things only target humanoids (Charm Person, et. al.) or a specific subtype like ranger's favored enemy.
Humanoid wild shape doesn't seem to make you a humanoid. It just grants you access to humanoid forms, wild shape style.

[Bronk]

there aren't many useful gargantuan animal forms

The roc is pretty useful... flight, crazy high grapple... good stuff at only 18HD.


wild shaping into a colossal creature

Interesting idea, whether it's a whale or an irritated bowl of petunias. I think it would be easier to just cast 'shapechange' though. The damage actually seems pretty high: 1d6 damage per ten feet fallen to a maximum of 20d6... per 200 pound increment. Since colossal creatures weigh 125 tons or more, that adds up quickly. I think the real problem is that you'd have to house rule a way to aim yourself. Maybe save the tactic until the DM tells you that you're directly above them, and ask 'Are you sure?'

[WinWin]

So, your stance is that you can pick up the human bonus feat with a casting of enhance wild shape? Maybe other bonus feats too, like weapon finesse on a desmodu hunting bat. Potentially nifty.

Depends. Races like Dwarf and Halfling have 'Dwarf Traits' and 'Halfling Traits' noted in both the Special Attacks and Special Qualities of their stat block. It does not break those traits down into seperate categories.

So wild shaping into a dwarf should grant you Stonecunning, Stability and an attack bonus vs. Orcs.

Races like Elf, have 'Elf traits' noted in Special Qualities only. Wildshaping into an elf would not grant you Elf Traits. Casting the Enchance Wild Shape spell before turning into an Elf, would grant you those extraordinary special qualities.

A race like Goblin does not have a 'Goblin Traits' Special Attack or Special Quality. A creature with Goblin as an alternate form, would not gain the skill bonus of the Goblin form or any of the racial benefits of that form, unless they were explicitly listed under Special Attacks.

I'm pretty sure that is how Alternate Form and Wild Shape works normally.

I know I am confusing the issue, by suggesting that Fangshields Wild Shape (humanoid), does not follow the normal Alternate Form rules. So I'll stop throwing that out there, for the time being. Instead I'll pull out some old campaign journals and see if I can find some more Druid tricks to add to this thread.

[eggynack]

Depends. Races like Dwarf and Halfling have 'Dwarf Traits' and 'Halfling Traits' noted in both the Special Attacks and Special Qualities of their stat block. It does not break those traits down into seperate categories.

So wild shaping into a dwarf should grant you Stonecunning, Stability and an attack bonus vs. Orcs.

Races like Elf, have 'Elf traits' noted in Special Qualities only. Wildshaping into an elf would not grant you Elf Traits. Casting the Enchance Wild Shape spell before turning into an Elf, would grant you those extraordinary special qualities.

A race like Goblin does not have a 'Goblin Traits' Special Attack or Special Quality. A creature with Goblin as an alternate form, would not gain the skill bonus of the Goblin form or any of the racial benefits of that form, unless they were explicitly listed under Special Attacks.

I'm pretty sure that is how Alternate Form and Wild Shape works normally.
It is an odd set of rules. I'm at least partially thinking about the bonus feats that animals and plants sometimes get, and how much utility that could have. Fangshields adds in its own set of complications, maybe. I might just stick to stuff in statblocks for now, cause there's some reasonable stuff there. Assessing these races makes for some bad juju.

Instead I'll pull out some old campaign journals and see if I can find some more Druid tricks to add to this thread.
Sounds very neat. I have a pretty good density of druid trickery, but druids are rather ridiculously dense.

[bekeleven]

It is an odd set of rules. I'm at least partially thinking about the bonus feats that animals and plants sometimes get, and how much utility that could have. Fangshields adds in its own set of complications, maybe. I might just stick to stuff in statblocks for now, cause there's some reasonable stuff there. Assessing these races makes for some bad juju.

Sounds very neat. I have a pretty good density of druid trickery, but druids are rather ridiculously dense.

Racial bonus feats, set or otherwise, are Ex Sq according to the game's FAQ.

Racial skill bonuses (+2/Spot, Stonecutting, etc.) also are.

Extra skill ranks are an Ex Sq but, being gained at levelup, you cannot use them if you wild shape into a human.

[eggynack]

Racial bonus feats, set or otherwise, are Ex Sq according to the game's FAQ.

Racial skill bonuses (+2/Spot, Stonecutting, etc.) also are.

Extra skill ranks are an Ex Sq but, being gained at levelup, you cannot use them if you wild shape into a human.
Sounds about right. Apparently, wild shaping into a desmodu hunting bat and using enhance wild shape is even better than I thought it was. On top of the blindsight, scent, and random immunity, you also pick up weapon finesse, which is great when you have 24 dexterity, a +4 bonus on hide checks, which could prove relevant, and a +8 on spot and listen checks, which is probably irrelevant against anything but someone with darkstalker. I'm probably going to have to go back over most wild shape forms for bonus feats. Ah well. Such is the way of life.

[WinWin]

Ghost Companion (Ghost, 53) + Aspect of the Wolf (SpC, 16) + X: This one is pretty simple, and mostly done. Ghost companion and aspect of the wolf, when combined, let you become a ghost for days. However, before the end of that period, you need to bring yourself back lest you sleep eternally. Unfortunately, most options cost a level, which is a rather untenable long term proposition. Thus far, the best option I've found is cocoon, which is unfortunately all the way up at eighth level, and it limits you to a week of ghosting at a time. That might actually be the best option for this, but input is nice.


The caster in this instance becomes eligable for Haunt Shift. Being tied to an object is probably superior to being tied to a location, though you can attempt to exploit Acorn of Far Travel if you can manage extremely short work days.

Only really relevant if you have a friendly Wizard in the party, or if you are theurging Druid. Preserving your psysical remains would probably be a good idea.

[eggynack]

That's certainly interesting, though I can't tell if it's necessarily good. Is being a haunting presence better than ghosting about? I mean, you're still probably limited to days/level of ghosting, and by the time you get access to an efficient reanimation spell, like cocoon, you're too high in HD to be shifted. It's an interesting trick though, if there's any real benefit to it.

[WinWin]

The benefit comes from dodging the true death at the expiration of Ghost Companion, as Haunting Presences can only be destroyed while materialised.

Wandering around as a possessed tree is not likely to be game breaking, but it is thematic.

Lowering effective HD is possible, but requires a Magic Mart. There are magical items that will grant negative levels, that can't be overcome by any means (such as Undead type), when in the possession of a character of prohibited alignment.

If Magic Marts are viable, then obtaining a Haunt Shift Scroll at lower level is an option.

On another note, with regards Ghost Companion, what prevents the Ghost Druid from using Wild Shape? They can't assume a templated form and are no longer a Ghost while they are an animal. If they are no longer a Ghost creature when the spell expires, do they risk the true death?

[eggynack]

The benefit comes from dodging the true death at the expiration of Ghost Companion, as Haunting Presences can only be destroyed while materialised.
I don't know if this necessarily dodges the true death though. It looks like the only thing that stops the duration from ticking down is a raise dead effect. I mean, ghosts don't tend to just spontaneously combust, so the true death looks like a function of the spell, rather than one of being a ghost.


Lowering effective HD is possible, but requires a Magic Mart. There are magical items that will grant negative levels, that can't be overcome by any means (such as Undead type), when in the possession of a character of prohibited alignment.
Yeah, maybe.


On another note, with regards Ghost Companion, what prevents the Ghost Druid from using Wild Shape? They can't assume a templated form and are no longer a Ghost while they are an animal. If they are no longer a Ghost creature when the spell expires, do they risk the true death?
You definitely don't lose your type or subtype in a wild shape, so you'd still be an incorporeal undead. You also keep your supernatural abilities. Basically, I think you'd become some sorta ghost bear, which is cool, but not exactly what you're looking for. Using aspect of the wolf to change your type to animal could be more pertinent along these lines, but as I noted above, I think that the true death is a function of the duration, rather than one of type, with the one caveat being resurrection.

[WinWin]

The spell effect of Ghost Companion kills you, then gives you a window of opportunity to persist an an undead creature for a time, before truly dieing.

If you can return to a living state during the duration of the spell, do you risk true death upon spell expiration? I would say no.

As for whether a Ghost druid retains type and subtype while wildshaping... That is a little trickier.

When using alternate form, you retain your original type and any relevant subtypes. However, a Human Druid has a type of Humanoid; If they temporarily become a ghost, their type changes to undead and they gain the incorporeal subtype for the duration of the effect. This type change only occurs because of the temporary template they now have.

If they wild shape, they can't assume a form with a template. So should they retain any temporary type changes from templates, or default to their original humanoid type? Can a druid with a template even use Wild Shape?

I get that turning into an incorporeal bear with ghost powers would be cool. But the fact is that the druid would be retaining all of the benefits of the Ghost template, even though they are prohibited from turning into a form with a template.

It gets even more confusing, when Ghost Bear elects to use Wild Shape to return to their original form. Again, they are prohibited from assuming a form with a template. So should they return to their temporary, templated form, or their original humanoid form?

Sorry for all of the questions.

[eggynack]

The spell effect of Ghost Companion kills you, then gives you a window of opportunity to persist an an undead creature for a time, before truly dieing.

If you can return to a living state during the duration of the spell, do you risk true death upon spell expiration? I would say no.
I think you would, especially because you're not really returning to a living state at all. Becoming an undead presence or wild shape'd bear definitely doesn't manage it, and aspect of the wolf is only a little better. You're just a dead guy who became a wolf.


As for whether a Ghost druid retains type and subtype while wildshaping... That is a little trickier.

When using alternate form, you retain your original type and any relevant subtypes. However, a Human Druid has a type of Humanoid; If they temporarily become a ghost, their type changes to undead and they gain the incorporeal subtype for the duration of the effect. This type change only occurs because of the temporary template they now have.

If they wild shape, they can't assume a form with a template. So should they retain any temporary type changes from templates, or default to their original humanoid type? Can a druid with a template even use Wild Shape?


I get that turning into an incorporeal bear with ghost powers would be cool. But the fact is that the druid would be retaining all of the benefits of the Ghost template, even though they are prohibited from turning into a form with a template.

It gets even more confusing, when Ghost Bear elects to use Wild Shape to return to their original form. Again, they are prohibited from assuming a form with a template. So should they return to their temporary, templated form, or their original humanoid form?[/QUOTE]
I think you're over-complicating this one a bit. You can't assume a form with a template, but templates you have in your original form still maintain their effect. I mean, imagine what would happen if you skipped the druid part, and just had a ghost druid. Better yet, imagine a less complicated template being applied. You don't lose all template based stuff, along with some normal stuff. You just have the whole setup transfer some of its statistics into the new form. The wild shape restriction is on adding animal based templates when you wild shape, not on having them natively.


Sorry for all of the questions.
Nah, that's basically the whole point. Ideally all of these things would just work out, and you could enter ghost form for infinite time in some perfect way, but you have to ask as many questions as possible before you can present the information as fact. That way, I'd be able to add crazy new stuff to my handbook, and the world would turn in a glorious way. My entry on ghost companion is already a ridiculous 775 words, so it's probably all going into a big ol' spoiler, thus granting additional complexity a relatively low impact on overall complexity. Turns out that turning into a ghost is complicated.

[bekeleven]

Minor nitpick. Templates you have don't remain blanket active in wild shape, otherwise winged druids or mineral warrior druids would be very popular. Instead, your types and subtypes remain active. This is similar to how warforged dragonborn are so popular, because warforged only actually have 4 things: Stat mods, plating (take a feat), light fortification, and a type/subtype. Hence when a warforged goes dragonborn they lose their plating (unless they took a feat), and they lose their fortification, but all their delicious type immunities stay.

So if a ghost wild shapes they lose their template-granted move speeds (along with all other move speeds) and Corrupting Gaze (gaze attacks are lost as part of Alternate Form). Everything else granted by the template falls under:


Type/Subtype: Keep undead immunity to mind-affecting, incorporeality, etc.
Special Qualities: All skill bonuses, Rejuvination.
Supernatural special attacks: Keep the touch attacks, etc.

Ghosts are affected by wild shape but lose surprisingly little, because they have no extraordinary special attacks, no mods to physical stats, no natural armor (deflection is Su), and no natural attacks (their touches are SA instead).

My homebrew wild shaping class grants the incorporeal subtype starting at 13th level, and at 20th level allows the player to apply the Ghost template to any form they know.

[eggynack]

Minor nitpick. Templates you have don't remain blanket active in wild shape, otherwise winged druids or mineral warrior druids would be very popular. Instead, your types and subtypes remain active. This is similar to how warforged dragonborn are so popular, because warforged only actually have 4 things: Stat mods, plating (take a feat), light fortification, and a type/subtype. Hence when a warforged goes dragonborn they lose their plating (unless they took a feat), and they lose their fortification, but all their delicious type immunities stay.

So if a ghost wild shapes they lose their template-granted move speeds (along with all other move speeds) and Corrupting Gaze (gaze attacks are lost as part of Alternate Form). Everything else granted by the template falls under:


Type/Subtype: Keep undead immunity to mind-affecting, incorporeality, etc.
Special Qualities: All skill bonuses, Rejuvination.
Supernatural special attacks: Keep the touch attacks, etc.

Ghosts are affected by wild shape but lose surprisingly little, because they have no extraordinary special attacks, no mods to physical stats, no natural armor (deflection is Su), and no natural attacks (their touches are SA instead).

My homebrew wild shaping class grants the incorporeal subtype starting at 13th level, and at 20th level allows the player to apply the Ghost template to any form they know.
The template remains active in the exact ways alternate form says it does, which is generally as you've noted. I've mostly been glossing over the specifics of that to discuss whether ghost works in a wild shape at all, as it's a template. I'm pretty sure that it does, as, I believe, are you, so things are good. As for wild shaping ghosts as a plan, it seems like a decent one. It seems rather tangential to the main point of ghosting, because most animal things don't help a ghost much, but it could be interesting. You'd mostly pull of the combo in order to become a nigh-invincible spell slinger, with access to telekinesis and magic jar as a bonus. Probably corrupting gaze or draining touch too, though I might revise out the former option, given your note about its incompatibility with wild shape.