Necromancer Wizard: How big of an undead army?

[tadkins]

Mostly a rules thing I'm not quite understanding, but I'm curious as to how much undead a necromancer wizard will be able to expect to control at high levels. I know that clerics and dread necromancers typically get a bigger undead pool than a wizard, but assuming I don't want to be a cleric (having to submit to a god, eww!) or a dread necromancer (they don't get enough for my tastes), I'd like to know if this setup is within the bounds of a wizard.

1. 15-20 humanoid skeletons. Mostly for labor/fodder for back at the camp.
2. 3-4 boxes of undead rat swarms. Placed in strategic points around the camp to surprise the enemy.
3. 2-3 brutes. Tough, resilient, damaging undead (likely along the lines of hydras, fire giants, etc). Typically what would accompany the wizard on a journey with the rest of the party, that would serve as extra firepower. Because it's better to have a couple good undead than a huge swarm taking up a lot of time in combat.
4. 1 decent support undead creature. Likely a Slaymate.
5. A zombie dragon. The wizard's personal mount, of course.

Assuming that the wizard isn't utilizing the clever tricks that might increase a control pool (like the Domain ACF and Deathbound power), would this be too much undead for a regular necromancer wizard to control? I ask only because I don't understand things like control pools, HDs and the like.

[A_S]

I'm not sure what exactly you'd consider a "clever trick" to increase the number of undead you can control, but if it's anything that allows you to control more than the description of Animate Dead, then yes, that's definitely too many. Undead tend to be very HD-heavy for their CR, so that pile is very likely to have more than 80 HD among them.

There are, of course, lots of ways to stretch this limit, but your OP seems to indicate that you'd prefer not to use them.

One bit of advice: If you like the mechanics of divine magic for necromancy, and you just don't like "having to submit to a god," look into Ur-Priest. Accelerated Cleric casting, Rebuke Undead, and you get to hate the gods to boot.

[OldTrees1]

1. 15-20 humanoid skeletons. Mostly for labor/fodder for back at the camp.
Cost: 1HD each => 15-20HD of Animate Dead
2. 3-4 boxes of undead rat swarms. Placed in strategic points around the camp to surprise the enemy.
Cost: 3HD each => 9-12HD of Animate Dead
3. 2-3 brutes. Tough, resilient, damaging undead (likely along the lines of hydras, fire giants, etc). Typically what would accompany the wizard on a journey with the rest of the party, that would serve as extra firepower. Because it's better to have a couple good undead than a huge swarm taking up a lot of time in combat.
Cost: 2-3 Command Undead spells per cl days
4. 1 decent support undead creature. Likely a Slaymate.
Cost: Leadership gives a Cohort. A 8th level Cohort with Rebuke Undead would be the best way for a Wizard to control a Slaymate
5. A zombie dragon. The wizard's personal mount, of course.
Cost: 1 Command Undead spell per cl days

Total cost
Animate Dead: 24-32 HD (achievable by 8th level)
Command Undead: 3-4 2nd level spell slots per cl days (achievable by 3rd level)
Leadership: 1 Cohort with 8th level Rebuke Undead (achievable by 9th level)

[tadkins]

I'm not sure what exactly you'd consider a "clever trick" to increase the number of undead you can control, but if it's anything that allows you to control more than the description of Animate Dead, then yes, that's definitely too many. Undead tend to be very HD-heavy for their CR, so that pile is very likely to have more than 80 HD among them.

There are, of course, lots of ways to stretch this limit, but your OP seems to indicate that you'd prefer not to use them.

One bit of advice: If you like the mechanics of divine magic for necromancy, and you just don't like "having to submit to a god," look into Ur-Priest. Accelerated Cleric casting, Rebuke Undead, and you get to hate the gods to boot.

The thing is that I tend to play with some very traditionalist players. The type that don't believe in godless clerics, for one (and thus not being able to pick and choose domain combos). I know of one trick involving Arcane Disciple (Undeath domain) and the Domain ACF for Deathbound domain, but I could never get away with that in my group as there are no gods I could pick with both domains.

If there are other tricks besides that, I'd definitely be open to them. That said though, my group is also one who is aware of how OP the Ur-priest is, and thus is not one I could count on being able to play either.

Plus, from a character standpoint, my necromancer is a very defiant and rebellious sort that's determined to make her own way to power without relying on the divine among other things. Knowledge and arcane power definitely suits her the most.

[tadkins]

Total cost
Animate Dead: 24-32 HD (achievable by 8th level)
Command Undead: 3-4 2nd level spell slots per cl days (achievable by 3rd level)
Leadership: 1 Cohort with 8th level Rebuke Undead (achievable by 9th level)

Just the kind of thing I was looking for, thanks. :)

Actually had no idea about the Slaymate part, but there are other supportive options I could choose from I'm sure, right? The idea is that with the wizard, two or three powerful undead brutes, and a supporter, the character could be something of her own mini-party.

Question though; what do you mean by "cl days"?

[Zanos]

Just the kind of thing I was looking for, thanks. :)

Actually had no idea about the Slaymate part, but there are other supportive options I could choose from I'm sure, right? The idea is that with the wizard, two or three powerful undead brutes, and a supporter, the character could be something of her own mini-party.

Question though; what do you mean by "cl days"?
CL = Caster Level. The spell last for a number of days equal to caster level, and therefore has to be recast every so often.

The rod of undead mastery in libris mortis on page 78 will double your animate dead pool(8xCL as opposed to the normal 4xCL). It costs 10k.

[Totema]

Perhaps you may consider a Dread Necromancer cohort? They get a class ability that can let them control masses of undead.

[OldTrees1]

Let's see how much we can inflate those groups without much thought

10th level, 17 Int vanilla Necromancer Wizard (no ACF, no prestige class, no feats beyond Leadership)
Further let's assume the Dread Necromancer cohort is only willing to donate the Slaymate (otherwise improbable for a Wizard). No further assitance from the Cohort.

A caster level of 10 and 6 2nd level slots means we have 60 Brutes (including the one Dragon)

A caster level of 10 means we have 40 HD of Animate Dead.
Enough for 25 1HD Human Skeletons and 5 3HD Zombie Rat Swarms.

Sidenote: This was with trying _not_ to optimize while using a Wizard. (Remember Dread Necromancers have many more undead minions than a Wizard can dream of)


Just the kind of thing I was looking for, thanks. :)

Actually had no idea about the Slaymate part, but there are other supportive options I could choose from I'm sure, right? The idea is that with the wizard, two or three powerful undead brutes, and a supporter, the character could be something of her own mini-party.

Question though; what do you mean by "cl days"?

Support options usually mean intelligent undead. Wizards get 0 intelligent undead.

If you want you can list your limits (Int, unused low level spell slots, caster level, wealth) and I will tell you your army's limits.

cl days was explained above. (casting the spell every 10 days if you have a caster level of 10)

Could you explain your adversion to Dread Necromancer? They get intelligent undead minions through Rebuke Undead in addition to larger versions of the Wizard mindless minion pools.

[tadkins]

To my friends, Leadership is one of those things that's only meant to be used in really small groups to make up for the lack of numbers. Can't really expect to have it in a typical game, honestly.

Rod of Undead Mastery seems to be what I'm looking for, though!

Thanks for breaking down the numbers for me, OldTrees. Was unsure of how it really worked and this gives me a good idea of what to expect once I can finally put the character into action.



Sidenote: This was with trying _not_ to optimize while using a Wizard. (Remember Dread Necromancers have many more undead minions than a Wizard can dream of)

True, but Dread Necromancers also don't have all the knowledge skills, all of the spells I'd want to have, and are generally expected to take the class the full 20 levels and transform into a lich. Had a different pathway in mind for this character that doesn't exactly fit with the DN.

[OldTrees1]

@tadkins
Fair enough on the Dread Necromancer point. However that does leave you with limited-zero options for support undead.

However I would strongly recommend against the Rod of Undead Mastery. At high levels Animate Dead is only useful for creating undead or controlling a large number of nonthreatening undead.

Using my 10th level non optimized Wizard example above, the Rod would increase your 1HD Human skeletons from 25 to 50 and your 3HD zombie Rat Swarms from 5 to 10. However the meat of your army is your 60 brutes which would be unaffected by the rod.

[tadkins]

@tadkins
Fair enough on the Dread Necromancer point. However that does leave you with limited-zero options for support undead.

However I would strongly recommend against the Rod of Undead Mastery. At high levels Animate Dead is only useful for creating undead or controlling a large number of nonthreatening undead.

From what I'm reading, Animate Dead would be for the weak, little-threatening undead I'd be controlling, while the tougher combat-undead I'd have calls for Command Undead? The rod could be used for the former, since my character would have a bunch of weak skeletons walking around laboring for her operation, not really expecting to see combat.

[Alleran]

I'll just direct your attention to the Animate Dread Warrior spell from Unapproachable East. When cast, it animates the dead creature permanently (instantaneous duration) as a dread warrior undead under your control. No limit to the number of HD or how long you have them for, and it's even stated that the person who invented this spell is using it to create an army of undead warriors under his complete control (note that a cleric with command undead can potentially usurp your control temporarily).

Spell-stitch it and enjoy your undead army.

[OldTrees1]

From what I'm reading, Animate Dead would be for the weak, little-threatening undead I'd be controlling, while the tougher combat-undead I'd have calls for Command Undead? The rod could be used for the former, since my character would have a bunch of weak skeletons walking around laboring for her operation, not really expecting to see combat.

That is correct. The Animate Dead spell is your weak undead (and creates the strong undead) and the Command Undead spell is your powerful undead. (Beware antimagic field and dispel magic)

[tadkins]

Thanks everyone. Mainly just wanted to know how much undead I could have while at the same time being a wizard who shoots beefed up split ray enervations at people. Basically be a necromancer with some minions but not completely devoted feat-wise to them (other than perhaps Corpsecrafter and Destruction Retribution; delicious exploding rats!).

For spellstitching I would just need the Craft Wondrous Items feat, right?

[OldTrees1]

For spellstitching I would just need the Craft Wondrous Items feat, right?

Nope. You just need to be a caster with gp to spend and xp to burn.

[tadkins]

Nope. You just need to be a caster with gp to spend and xp to burn.

Ah, gotcha! Even better.

[Silva Stormrage]

For necromancer wizards you want to keep using command undead (The spell), get a metamagic rod of chaining and you can control a LOT of powerful beefy mindless undead. Command undead is vastly better than the standard animate dead pool. Of course clerics can pick it up with the Divine Magician ACF but still, its a VERY useful spell for necromancers.

Metamagic Rod of Chaining + Metamagic Rod of Extend means at level 7 you can control 7 20 HD (Good luck finding the corpses for it but hypothetically) zombies for 2 weeks with one spell.

Ya thats pretty efficient.

[greenpotato]

I thought you could only use one metamagic rod at a time?

[Silva Stormrage]

I thought you could only use one metamagic rod at a time?

Can you? If so thats news to me, just add the extend spell to it if you can only add one rod at a time, its a good metamagic anyway.

[OldTrees1]

Metamagic Rod of Chaining + Metamagic Rod of Extend means at level 7 you can control 7 20 HD (Good luck finding the corpses for it but hypothetically) zombies for 2 weeks with one spell.

Ya thats pretty efficient.

Chain is a 1+cl multiplier (cl secondary targets).

So at level 7, by reserving 3 2nd level spell slots per day(1 rod's worth), you can control
(1+7)undead per spell * 3 spells per day * (7*2)days
8 * 3 * 14 = 336 undead

Edit: No rules about how many metamagic rods can affect one spell
However the rods are expensive
Chain: 14,000gp (25% of wealth by level at 11th level)
Extend: 3,000gp (25% of wealth by level at 6th level)

[Karnith]

A couple of Wizard spells to bolster your undead army include Undead Lieutenant (Spell Compendium p. 226; you have to cast it on an undead creature with at least Int 5, it lasts for 24 hours, and it gives the undead control of additional undead creatures for you) and Awaken Undead (Spell Compendium p. 21; gives an Intelligence score and Extraordinary abilities back to mindless undead).

Also, if you're making a Zombie Dragon, make sure that you're using the Draconomicon version (on pp. 197-198), instead of the normal Zombie template.

Can you? If so thats news to me, just add the extend spell to it if you can only add one rod at a time, its a good metamagic anyway.
Edit: No rules about how many metamagic rods can affect one spell
Per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicRods):

Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat but do not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod’s wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.
(Emphasis mine)

[OldTrees1]

(Emphasis mine)

Thank you for the correction and the source of the limitation rule. (I wish they had reprinted that in the MIC)



In that case use the Extend Spell feat, 3 3rd level slots per day and the Least Chain Metamagic Rod (25% of wealth at 11th level)

So at level 11, by reserving 3 3rd level spell slots per day(1 rod's worth), you can control
(1+11)undead per spell * 3 spells per day * (11*2)days
12 * 3 * 22 = 792 undead
From 11th level on it simplifies to [6 * (cl) * (cl+1)]

[CombatOwl]

The thing is that I tend to play with some very traditionalist players. The type that don't believe in godless clerics, for one (and thus not being able to pick and choose domain combos). I know of one trick involving Arcane Disciple (Undeath domain) and the Domain ACF for Deathbound domain, but I could never get away with that in my group as there are no gods I could pick with both domains.

If there are other tricks besides that, I'd definitely be open to them. That said though, my group is also one who is aware of how OP the Ur-priest is, and thus is not one I could count on being able to play either.

Plus, from a character standpoint, my necromancer is a very defiant and rebellious sort that's determined to make her own way to power without relying on the divine among other things. Knowledge and arcane power definitely suits her the most.

If you really want to expand your undead army, you need to take Leadership and Craft Wondrous Item. Dominate your minions (AKA don't ban enchantment) and hand them a custom Tome of Animate Dead that does Animate Dead 1 or 2 times a day. The hit dice are limited by the Tome's CL... for each tome. If you need more than that, use hirelings (and Dominate). Might want to pick up Extend Spell...

[Ansem]

Wizard Necromancer specialist variant allows 5HD/level of Undead, I'd take it for the Minionmancer, also grants you a Skeleton minion instead of a familiar.

[Urpriest]

Support options usually mean intelligent undead. Wizards get 0 intelligent undead.

Generally. However, a few Necrosis Carnexes could fill that role.

[Thrawn183]

I'd just like to throw out the Summon Undead line of spells from Libris Mortis for consideration.

[OldTrees1]

Generally. However, a few Necrosis Carnexes could fill that role.

Hmm 4HD, Int 3 undead created via Animate Dead. Nice find. [MM4 pg 104]

[tadkins]

Generally. However, a few Necrosis Carnexes could fill that role.

Very nice find, thank you. Might just make a couple of these and forego the whole Corpsecrafter/Destruction Retribution thing. Some Necrosis Carnexes and the fast healing from the 10th level Master Specialist ability should be enough healing for an undead cadre, right?