[PF] Good ole molotav cocktails

[Dalebert]

I remember the classic days of D&D when we would stick a piece of cloth in the mouth of a flask of oil, light it, and throw it at something with the hopes of setting it on fire. I'm not sure of the mechanics of this in PF, if any.

I successfully soaked a zombie lord in oil last night. Some issues and questions that came up after that...

1) Spark only works on unattended objects and the object still gets a save. We discussed briefly whether the oil him from the splash would qualify. It was questionable at best and we concluded this cantrip is crap.

2) The DM said we could try the molotav cocktail but several things can go wrong like the cloth falling out.

3) How many actions and what type would the cocktail amount to? You have to unstopper and stuff cloth in (could this be done ahead of time? It might leak a lot), then you have to light it and throw it. Might be better off just throwing oil and then throwing an already lit torch at them.

[Hamste]

There are rules for throwing oil. It does 1d6 and has a 50% chance of not working right. I would personally allow spark to light the oil...it is hard to tell when a liquid is attended and not many people bother to use it as it is. You can ask to light it in hand though (it is not unreasonable but this is a speak with the DM moment). Only magical items or attended objects get saves unattended non-magical items are automatically affected (So that save is for something like a magic book not oil). Lighting a molotov depends on how you lit it. Using a flint and tinder is a full round action but using a pre-lit fire is a free action

[cakellene]

Isn't that the whole point of alchemist's fire? Vial breaks when it hits something and the substance combusts when exposed to air, right?

[Hamste]

It is but that is much more expensive than oil and the oil does as much damage with only a 50% fail rate and needs to be lit. Forgot to mention full round action to add the fuse to the oil but you can do that before hand

[Dalebert]

Maybe it's smart to throw and then follow up with something like burning hands or Kelgore's fire bolt.

[Spore]

I will introduce you to a bit of basic chemistry.

a) Molotov cocktails are made of highly combustible liquids (that are often also very volatile). The rag will burn, and the liquid will combust when enough air is introduced to the system (usually by breaking the bottle). This would have an exploding effect as well as a rather short time of burning (1d4 rounds would be appropriate).

b) If you make such a contraption with a more oily and less volatile liquid, you would get some kind of incendiary bomb. It would be exploding on impact, but burn for very very long amounts of time.

Case a) would be liquids like hard liquor. Case b) would be liquids like lamp oil or animal fat. Gamewise, I'd make Craft (Alchemy) or similar checks to impromptu such things. Your character doesn't just so happens to know how to create a bomb.

[Dalebert]

I will introduce you to a bit of basic chemistry.

I get basic chemistry. What I didn't know is the game mechanics of oil in PF. I know it's a stretch to call it a molotav cocktail and I didn't expect it to behave like a bomb. Just a 1st-lvl way to set a creature on fire.

Hamste clarified, but I'm curious. Is the 1d6 just for one round? Is there no dmg after the initial round? In 2.0, I'm pretty sure there were three rounds of dmg, maybe less than the initial.

I have a vague recollection of there maybe being a discussion of how this was nerfed because it should be more complicated than it was per the old rules. I have this friend who seems to want us to try all these hair-brained schemes that don't actually work well with the mechanics and this is one of the things. I feel like he's maybe still working off of 2.0 rules which were way more swingy.

He showed up to watch the last game (his wife was playing and he brought food) and I actually threw a flask of oil. I soaked it, but then we had to figure out how to light it. It was a two round action minimum and of questionable value. I would have just fired my crossbow at it but it was a zombie lord and had DR/slashing. It brought two of my teammates down leaving me and a cowardly NPC and I finally hit it with a torch. It had 1 hit point left.

[Greenish]

I get basic chemistry. What I didn't know is the game mechanics of oil in PF. I know it's a stretch to call it a molotav cocktail and I didn't expect it to behave like a bomb. Just a 1st-lvl way to set a creature on fire.It'd be even more of a stretch to call it Molotov's Cocktail. :smalltongue:


Is the 1d6 just for one round? Is there no dmg after the initial round? In 2.0, I'm pretty sure there were three rounds of dmg, maybe less than the initial.It works just like alchemist's fire: 1d6 damage for two rounds, plus splash. At 1/200th of the price of alchemist's fire, if it didn't have the drawbacks of preparing and unreliability, no one would use AF.

[Ravens_cry]

It'd be even more of a stretch to call it Molotov's Cocktail. :smalltongue:

The etymology is fascinating as well. The USSR was dropping incendiary sub-munition bombs on Finland during the Winter War, while propaganda (specifically, Soviet Foreign Minister Molotov) claimed the Soviets to be dropping food. The Finns, in a case of gallows humour, referred to them as 'Molotov's bread baskets', and called the improvised incendiary devices they used to deal with tanks, 'Molotov's cocktails' as a 'drink to go with the food'. Now, 'Molotov bread baskets' are mostly forgotten, though their 'accompaniment' lives on, though it is undoubtedly of far earlier invention than the name itself.
Sorry for the history lesson, but the gallows humour of the whole thing amuses me greatly.:smallamused:

[Hamste]

It'd be even more of a stretch to call it Molotov's Cocktail. :smalltongue:

It works just like alchemist's fire: 1d6 damage for two rounds, plus splash. At 1/200th of the price of alchemist's fire, if it didn't have the drawbacks of preparing and unreliability, no one would use AF.

To be completely honest even with the drawbacks for oil very few people actually use Alchemist's fire unless if it is handed to them. By the time you are rich enough to spend 25 gp on a single attack you are strong enough that 2d6 means pretty little. Oil on the other hand is incredibly cheap and with how easy it is to hit with it I fully expect low level wizards to carry it (results in a damage potential close to 3.5 each turn and even with no BAB a wizard should be able to hit most of the time)

[Dalebert]

By the time you are rich enough to spend 25 gp on a single attack you are strong enough that 2d6 means pretty little.

You beat me to it. I was just about to say they're too expensive for really low level adventurers and by the time they're affordable, you can already get your hands on better things for the price, like a wand of magic missile or Kelgore's fire bolt.

There might be a brief sweet spot when it makes sense to buy but it seems very brief. The same guy who showed up as the peanut gallery the other night is a big fan of it and seemed perplexed that we didn't have any on our first adventure. One AF is 1/6 of my starting money! Yes, i had enough left after the essentials to afford one and it would have cleaned me out, and I think I was the only one because I didn't have to buy armor or fancy weapons as the arcane caster.

And if we come out of this adventure with enough money for a wand, it's going to that; not to AF.

[thompur]

To be completely honest even with the drawbacks for oil very few people actually use Alchemist's fire unless if it is handed to them. By the time you are rich enough to spend 25 gp on a single attack you are strong enough that 2d6 means pretty little. Oil on the other hand is incredibly cheap and with how easy it is to hit with it I fully expect low level wizards to carry it (results in a damage potential close to 3.5 each turn and even with no BAB a wizard should be able to hit most of the time)

I don't know. in my experience, at least in PFS, just about everybody carries a flask or two to combat swarms.:smalltongue:

[Hamste]

I don't know. in my experience, at least in PFS, just about everybody carries a flask or two to combat swarms.:smalltongue:

Wouldn't that do only 6 points of damage (one point of damage each square multiplied by 1.5. Wasn't if the multiplied damage factored in the fact the swarms take up 4 squares or not) or is there a different ruling in PFS play? The 1d6 for two turns targets only a single person so I would have thought that would not effect swarms as per usual.

[Spuddles]

I like filling extradimensional spaces with oil or shrinking casks of it. Combine with PF's Create Pit spell to really ruin someone's day :)

[Spore]

I get basic chemistry. What I didn't know is the game mechanics of oil in PF. I know it's a stretch to call it a molotav cocktail and I didn't expect it to behave like a bomb. Just a 1st-lvl way to set a creature on fire.

There is no mechanics about it. The mechanics an DM employs are it. (Needless to say, dousing someone in oil and burning it should provide MINUTES of flaming agony).

[Hamste]

There is no mechanics about it. The mechanics an DM employs are it. (Needless to say, dousing someone in oil and burning it should provide MINUTES of flaming agony).

...there are mechanics for it. Right in the description of oil and the Alchemist Flask the rules for throwing burning oil is explained.

[Slipperychicken]

The rules already account for "flaming agony". Just look at the description for Alchemist Fire (oil says to use those).

If you successfully throw flaming oil/alchemist fire at someone, after the initial 1d6, they catch fire and may take a Full-Round action and make a DC 15 reflex save (to put out the fire) or take 1d6 fire damage every round. They can re-try as long as they're still conscious.


Lamp Oil (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances#TOC-Oil-Lamp)

A pint of lamp oil burns for 6 hours in a common lantern or lamp. You can also use a flask of lamp oil as a splash weapon. Use the rules for alchemist's fire, except that it takes a full-round action to prepare a flask with a fuse. Once it is thrown, there is a 50% chance of the flask igniting successfully.


PF Alchemist Fire rules

You can throw a flask of alchemist's fire as a splash weapon with a range increment of 10 feet.

A direct hit deals 1d6 points of fire damage. Every creature within 5 feet of the point where the flask hits takes 1 point of fire damage from the splash. On the round following a direct hit, the target takes an additional 1d6 points of damage. If desired, the target can use a full-round action to attempt to extinguish the flames before taking this additional damage. Extinguishing the flames requires a DC 15 Reflex save. Rolling on the ground provides the target a +2 bonus on the save. Leaping into a lake or magically extinguishing the flames automatically smothers the fire.

Seriously, all you need to do is read the rules.

[Dalebert]

Seriously, all you need to do is read the rules.

Sorry. I should have looked harder for it. I guess I thought it was hard to find considering my DM didn't seem to be able to find it and he's more knowledgeable about PF than I am.

[Greenish]

It is a bit out of place in PFSRD (their mundane items are just poorly organized in general, or at least I need to dig for a while for the stuff).

It doesn't help that the rules for catching on fire (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/environmental-rules#TOC-Catching-on-Fire) are in another section entirely.


And I believe Slipperychicken was replying to Sporeegg, not to you.

[Slipperychicken]

Sorry. I should have looked harder for it. I guess I thought it was hard to find considering my DM didn't seem to be able to find it and he's more knowledgeable about PF than I am.

Honestly, don't sweat it. You tried to find it, and that's good enough. Besides, if everyone knew the rules perfectly, what would I do all day? :smalltongue: Well, aside from studying...

Also, that website makes finding mundane items WAY harder than it has any right to be*. I almost want to pay them money to put all the "goods and services" on one page, like the 3.5 SRD does (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/equipment.htm).

* (10 different pages for miscellaneous items? Not to mention putting eastern, stone age, bronze age, weapon accessories, and firearms on their own individual pages is infuriating.)



And I believe Slipperychicken was replying to Sporeegg, not to you.

Pretty much. I just feel like quoting the rules is easy enough that we shouldn't have that kind of ambiguity 16 posts in.

[Hamste]

...I must spend way too much time on that site I guess. If find it quite easy to find that stuff. Just click on the equipment thing and you get this

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final

Then from there it is usually quite easy to find what you need (Though oddly enough oil is under alchemical creations)

[Greenish]

(Though oddly enough oil is under alchemical creations)And grappling hook is in exotic weapons, and fire ink is only under writing tools (though it's used for tattoos), unlike other kinds of ink which are under alchemical items, and what's with all the sub categories.

[Slipperychicken]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final

Then from there it is usually quite easy to find what you need (Though oddly enough oil is under alchemical creations)

I can find it sure, but I mean that it's often hard to figure out which of the 10 "goods and services" pages your item is on, unless it's something really basic. I feel like when I have to Control+F on 4 different pages to find the item I want, that's too much work and it could have been designed better.

I don't know. Maybe putting all the "goods and services" on one page would have increased the loading times too much, but I still believe that things like "bronze age", "stone age", and "eastern" are too small to deserve their own pages.

Also, I'm miffed that they don't have 10ft poles anymore. Just "pole". And most of the item links either don't work and/or the items lack entries altogether (making a link rather useless, since it doesn't go anywhere).