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dead_but_dreaming
2007-01-16, 03:45 PM
It just struck me: Why don't all liches wear rings of Gentle Repose (or some such)? I certainly would...

(must... not mention... secret plan... to attain... unlife)

pestilenceawaits
2007-01-16, 03:47 PM
I figure that they couldn't care less for the physical realm or they like the fear factor involved with the rotting corpse look. For those more vain liches I would use one or some sort of illusory magic that does the same thing.

Lord Sidereal
2007-01-16, 03:49 PM
Or a cleverly constructed puppet...

oriong
2007-01-16, 03:51 PM
Because Gentle Repose doesn't work on liches.

It only functions on a dead creature, not undead creatures (they aren't the same).

And rings of Alter Self or Disguise Self are much cheaper.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-16, 03:54 PM
Or a Cap of Disguise! Except then you can't wear a Circlet of Intellect...unless you get the Extra Item Slot Epic Feat.

Rex Idiotarum
2007-01-16, 03:55 PM
It does work, Gentle Repose prevents Rot on a corpse, moving, or otherwise.
I'd allow it to pass. Infact, I've brought this up numerous times, as long as your skin isn't damaged, you'll be fine. I've read of the Vest of Gentle Repose in a certain book, that allows a Lich of other undead from decay.

dead_but_dreaming
2007-01-16, 03:55 PM
Because Gentle Repose doesn't work on liches.

It only functions on a dead creature, not undead creatures (they aren't the same).

And rings of Alter Self or Disguise Self are much cheaper.

Does the books say this explicitely? Because I feel that if something is rotting it can be considered sorta.. dead.

dead_but_dreaming
2007-01-16, 03:56 PM
I figure that they couldn't care less for the physical realm or they like the fear factor involved with the rotting corpse look. For those more vain liches I would use one or some sort of illusory magic that does the same thing.

But they would still be, you know.. rotting. I'm sure some of them would find this prospect unpleasant.

Rex Idiotarum
2007-01-16, 03:58 PM
No where does it say that in this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gentleRepose.htm).

terrant
2007-01-16, 03:58 PM
Never meet a Lich that was gentle, and the only time they 'repose' its usually involves some diabolical throne of power with an altar and minions.

Plus the journey to become a Lich and then demi-Lich is about a delibarate process of change whereas Gentle Repose is aim to stop such processes.

oriong
2007-01-16, 03:59 PM
Legally it doesn't work, 'dead' is a very specific status and a lich (or any other undead) isn't 'dead'. In fact that's why they're called 'undead'.

Certainly I would say it's hardly unreasonable to make a magic item that does the same thing using a slightly modified version to work on corpses, but like I said ultimately the reason is that Alter Self and Disguise Self are cheaper alternatives.


No where does it say that in this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gentleRepose.htm)." You preserve the remains of a dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead) creature so that they do not decay."

Dead does not mean undead. That's why the word dead is a link, it's a specific condition.

pestilenceawaits
2007-01-16, 04:01 PM
But they would still be, you know.. rotting. I'm sure some of them would find this prospect unpleasant.

I don't see why they couldn't do it I just think for many liches that would be the last thing on their to do list. But I am sure that for certain liches it would be a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-16, 04:09 PM
Like baelnorns!

dead_but_dreaming
2007-01-16, 04:10 PM
Like baelnorns!Exactly! :smallsmile:

I'd like to play one of those now.

Munchy
2007-01-16, 11:37 PM
I generally assume that liches can cast spells on themselves to alter their appearance and texture. A few relatively low level illusion spells can take care of the "look" aspect while a custom transmutation spell could fill in the rotted flesh and clothes to attain a normal feel.

I assume that the lich would have several spells that could affect appearance and texture. They would then cast the appropriate spell depending on how lifelike they wanted to appear on a given day (Or for a given interaction) with the upper range being a spell that fixes holes in flesh and equipment, raises body temperature to normal, and looks absolutely normal (Appearance and touch agreeing). Unless someone had true seeing active on them the lich would look and feel like a normal creature of whatever its base class was.

Divides
2007-01-16, 11:50 PM
Because Gentle Repose doesn't work on liches.

It only functions on a dead creature, not undead creatures (they aren't the same).

And rings of Alter Self or Disguise Self are much cheaper.

True... although it's worth pointing out that disguise self doesn't alter texture (unless that's changed), and I believe that alter self would only be able to turn the lich into the form of relatively weak, non-template based undead ("can not change type")... not sure how many of those there are that look exactly human (possibly vampire spawn >.>).

Mewtarthio
2007-01-17, 12:51 AM
The real question is: Why would a Lich want to cast Gentle Repose on himself? The whole point of Lichdom is to turn your back on life and become an immortal undead spellcaster of limitless power. It involves sticking your soul in a box and a very unpleasant ritual. If you want to tick off Maruts, there are easier ways of doing so:

1) The simplest is to get friendly with an Archivist who's stolen the "Reincarnate" spell from some druids: The spell brings you right back to the adult category, so you can just commit suicide whenever you get too old for comfort.
2) Alternatively, you can Clone yourself (it makes sense that the Clone will be in whatever age category you were in when you made it, though it's not explicitly stated). You'll have to keep the Clone under Gentle Repose (back to your Archivist buddy), though I've heard of the Stasis Clone spell from somewhere I don't recall.
3) High-level Shapers can also use an Astral Seed ("a living, breathing body that is an exact duplicate of your body at the time you manifested Astral Seed"), but you have to manifest it again each time you get a new level.
4) Really high-level Telepaths can get True Mind Switch to usurp a younger body (and conceivably continue to advance in mental stats as the host ages while shaking off the physical penalties each time TMS is manifested).

There's probably more, but I'm going off-topic.

Jack_of_Spades
2007-01-17, 01:12 AM
Can't they just use disguise self or something? They can remove their flesh to remove that dead flesh smell.

dead_but_dreaming
2007-01-17, 05:25 AM
Can't they just use disguise self or something? They can remove their flesh to remove that dead flesh smell.Yeah, they could cook themselves or something! Being a skeleton is surely more agreable than being a rotting corpse, no matter how detached, evil and transcendent you are. :smallwink:

Iituem
2007-01-17, 06:04 AM
Hmm... Well, as an alteration of the alter self spell (restricted use, extended period), how about...

White Eyes and Rosy Red Cheeks
Sor/Wiz 1 (Trans)
Components: V,S
Casting Time: One action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 24 hours

Individuals suffering from some sort of disfigurement (heavy scarring, age, pestilence, rotting flesh) can use this spell to immediately change their external appearance to how they looked in the prime of their youth. Sight, sound, tactile and olfactory elements are all adjusted, although no aging effects are reversed by this spell. It is commonly amongst liches and other spellcasting undead who have reason to appear living, be it vanity or underhanded intent.

--==--

You can accomplish the same thing with alter self, this just provides a cheaper (more specific) way of doing it. Disguise self tends to fail in that it does not affect tactile (and probably olfactory) elements, so you can still feel the rotting skin (and probably smell it).

dead_but_dreaming
2007-01-17, 06:38 AM
Hmm... Well, as an alteration of the alter self spell (restricted use, extended period), how about...

White Eyes and Rosy Red Cheeks
Sor/Wiz 1 (Trans)
Components: V,S
Casting Time: One action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 24 hours

Individuals suffering from some sort of disfigurement (heavy scarring, age, pestilence, rotting flesh) can use this spell to immediately change their external appearance to how they looked in the prime of their youth. Sight, sound, tactile and olfactory elements are all adjusted, although no aging effects are reversed by this spell. It is commonly amongst liches and other spellcasting undead who have reason to appear living, be it vanity or underhanded intent.

--==--

You can accomplish the same thing with alter self, this just provides a cheaper (more specific) way of doing it. Disguise self tends to fail in that it does not affect tactile (and probably olfactory) elements, so you can still feel the rotting skin (and probably smell it).

It goes right into my campaign. :smallsmile:

Yuki Akuma
2007-01-17, 07:46 AM
You can't do the same thing with Alter Self; a lich would only be able to use Alter Self to become a low-HD, non-templated undead (so, a skeleton, a zombie, a ghoul...).

I think the spell should probably be second level, but that may just be me.

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-17, 09:52 AM
Well certain things require that you have flesh. It's one thing to say a Lich can still speak sans tongue and lips, it's quite another to have them perform the Lichloving...nevermind, I've probably said too much. :)

Munchy
2007-01-17, 10:22 AM
The real question is: Why would a Lich want to cast Gentle Repose on himself? The whole point of Lichdom is to turn your back on life and become an immortal undead spellcaster of limitless power. It involves sticking your soul in a box and a very unpleasant ritual. If you want to tick off Maruts, there are easier ways of doing so:

1) The simplest is to get friendly with an Archivist who's stolen the "Reincarnate" spell from some druids: The spell brings you right back to the adult category, so you can just commit suicide whenever you get too old for comfort.
2) Alternatively, you can Clone yourself (it makes sense that the Clone will be in whatever age category you were in when you made it, though it's not explicitly stated). You'll have to keep the Clone under Gentle Repose (back to your Archivist buddy), though I've heard of the Stasis Clone spell from somewhere I don't recall.
3) High-level Shapers can also use an Astral Seed ("a living, breathing body that is an exact duplicate of your body at the time you manifested Astral Seed"), but you have to manifest it again each time you get a new level.
4) Really high-level Telepaths can get True Mind Switch to usurp a younger body (and conceivably continue to advance in mental stats as the host ages while shaking off the physical penalties each time TMS is manifested).

There's probably more, but I'm going off-topic.

The main purpose of becoming a lich is not to turn your back on life, that is a side effect of the process. The point is to become an immortal spellcaster that has a method to keep coming back WITHOUT loosing a level each time.

Your suggestions may not be feasable in all settings and may require a caster to be friends with someone it trusts to keep up its end of the bargain. Case by case:

1. You loose a level each time you are destroyed. Need to be in good standing with a Druid(s). The Druid must know that you have been destroyed and reincarnate you within one week of death. (Otherwise somone will have to use some form of resurrection and ensure that you die before aging much more.).

2. Costs a level each time you are destroyed. There is no reason a caster couldn't have chunks of flesh stored somewhere in addition to being a lich. Does not prevent aging or bring you back if you die of old age, so you would have to ensure that you die periodically. Making sure that he gets killed (costing a level) every 50 years or so would be quite a drag on a caster intent on hanging around for a long, long time.

3. Source? This is not even in the spell compendium, so it is very much dependent on the setting and the DM and player having seen that splat book.

4. Wonderfull, but works for psions, not wizards. How does this help a high level wizard?

Even if the above were not a problem there are still many cases in which being a lich would make more sense. Suppose the caster is in a setting where most of its enemies and foreseable opponents are undead or necromancers. Becoming a lich negates many of your opponents's nastier attacks and negates the advantage that spells such as unhallow would provide an opponent.

Thus, the question of whether lichdom makes sense for a caster has to be looked at on a case by case and setting by setting basis. It is therefore inacurate to say that a lich would never want to look normal again because it "turned its back on life". Even if that were the case, it does not eliminate the usefullness of being able to blend in and walk unnoticed among the living (And not having to worry about someone bumping into you and noticing a discrepancy between the appearance and actual touch).

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-01-17, 10:41 PM
Prestidigitation to take care of the smell, Disguise Self to take care of the look. You're all good to go at the cost of a cantrip and a 1st level spell. Considering you need to be at least a 10th level caster to survive the process of becomming a litch... probably a negligable investment of power by that time, should he wish to bother hiding his true nature.

Scorpina
2007-01-17, 10:47 PM
Well, I suppose according to the rules it wouldn't work... but it's mostly a cosmetic thing anyway. It makes very little difference, crunchwise, whether the lich's body is decaying or intact. I think it'd be perfectly fair to let it work.

Ashes
2007-01-17, 10:53 PM
3. Source? This is not even in the spell compendium, so it is very much dependent on the setting and the DM and player having seen that splat book.


Psionics, my friend. Psionics.

Therefore the "Shaper"-thing.

krossbow
2007-01-17, 11:19 PM
There's a big reason why they would want this: Decomposition and eventual destruction.



Why do liches always end up as floating skulls? Decomposition! It's not true eternal life if you end up being destroyed by the forces of time man; I'd say most would leap at it in a heart beat.
________
YAMAHA RBX6JM (http://www.yamaha-tech.com/wiki/Yamaha_RBX6JM)

Njerus_Xhazekarath
2007-01-17, 11:22 PM
Well, what about a Changeling Lich?

Jack Mann
2007-01-17, 11:52 PM
1. You loose a level each time you are destroyed. Need to be in good standing with a Druid(s).

That's why you have an archivist buddy. He can cast the spell so you don't have to deal with any pesky druids.

oriong
2007-01-18, 04:21 AM
except that doesn't work : P

How does the archivist stay immortal? There's not much use in an 'immortality fix' if the thing you're relying on is still mortal as ever. Do you befriend a new high-level archivist every time you get creaky again?

dead_but_dreaming
2007-01-18, 04:34 AM
I totally agree with Munchy on all points. Besides, IMO becoming a lich is first and foremost a way to extend your "life"-span indefinitely, not necessarily "turning on life" in a philosophical sense. I consider becoming a lich sligtly imoral at most, not outright evil (but then again, I dislike the entire alignment system and the constraints it creates). Think baelnorns if you wish, but I would say that quite a few non-evil spellcasters of any race could consider lichdom as a means of avoiding death and that doesn't have to imply that they like being corpses. Then again, ruling that there is no way of avoiding the corpse-look thing could be a way to reinforce the notion that unlife actually comes at a price...

Avicenex
2007-01-18, 05:19 AM
Of course, each option proposed doesn't actually make you immortal--it merely prevents you from dying from old age. Reincarnate (as stated before) makes you lose a level, and there's no saying what you'll come back as. The other options also have a flaw: you can still be destroyed. To destroy a lich you have to dispose of the phylactery, and any lich powerful enough to become a lich is powerful enough (and probably smart enough--especially if he's a wizard) to make his phylactery near impossible to locate and destroy. Not to mention undead get some nice benifits.

Also, Liches are way more BA than the other choices.

I would rule that Gentle Repose would work on preserving undead's flesh, but the disguise self/prestidigation solution is far easier.

Yuki Akuma
2007-01-18, 05:24 AM
except that doesn't work : P

How does the archivist stay immortal? There's not much use in an 'immortality fix' if the thing you're relying on is still mortal as ever. Do you befriend a new high-level archivist every time you get creaky again?

Elan archivist. Simple.

SpiderBrigade
2007-01-18, 07:14 AM
I'm going to have to go looking for it, but I'm pretty positive there's a Forgotten Realms spell that specifically makes undead look like living people.

Also:
Well certain things require that you have flesh. It's one thing to say a Lich can still speak sans tongue and lips, it's quite another to have them perform the Lichloving...nevermind, I've probably said too much. :)
A lich gives a whole new meaning to the term "bone," is all I"ll say.

Caelestion
2007-01-18, 07:58 AM
For what it's worth, both the Eberron Ascended Councillors and the Faerūnian baelnorns have undecaying bodies. Of course, they're both obviously not alive, but neither of them stink or have rotting corpses.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-01-18, 08:14 AM
The joys of Positive Energy, right there. And speaking of Eberron, this topic piques my interest about a certain illegally-templated archvillain from tthat setting, who a) did not choose to be a Lich initially, b) was possibly quite young (for an Elf) when she became one, and c) I just want to portray as extremely vain in my campaign.

Hmm...doesn't Alter Self work differently now, since people mentioned how that wouldn't work? I don't have my PHB2 handy, but I believe it was altered to be more like Disguise Self with minor buffs built in, and to fit in with the new "Polymorph subschool." Obviously, not everyone uses those rules, but it could work then.