Anima Mage Early Entry?

[sambouchah]

Anima Mage requires the ability to Bind 2nd level Vestiges and ability to cast 2nd level spells. Is it just me or could you enter this class at level 2?

Human Wizard 1(2 Flaws)
Feats: Bind Vestige, Improved Binding, Precocious Apprentice, Metamagic X

Spells per day: 3/2/1(Assuming 12 Intelligence)
Vestiges: One 2nd Level Vestige

Then take Anima Mage at level two assuming you can get the ranks in Intimidate somehow. Would that work or am I just being dumb?

Thanks, Sam

[Vortenger]

If you get the intimidate ranks, sure*.

You can also in going Wiz 2 (w/ precocious apprentice*) / Binder 1 (w/ Improved Binding at 3) / Anima Mage, and not blow a feat on Bind Vestige...

*=This is assuming your DM does not include the caveat that you must cast 2nd level spells (plural), which is perfectly reasonable. It does say just that, but few people parse it that hard.

[sambouchah]

If you get the intimidate ranks, sure*.

You can also in going Wiz 2 (w/ precocious apprentice*) / Binder 1 (w/ Improved Binding at 3) / Anima Mage, and not blow a feat on Bind Vestige...

*=This is assuming your DM does not include the caveat that you must cast 2nd level spells (plural), which is perfectly reasonable. It does say just that, but few people parse it that hard.

The DM I'd be doing this with isn't perceptive enough to notice:smallbiggrin:

Why not Wiazard 1/Binder 1 with Improved Binding and Precocious Apprentice? Really I was just trying to determine if this was the quickest way, it's definitely not the most practical.

[Ramza00]

The DM I'd be doing this with isn't perceptive enough to notice:smallbiggrin:

Why not Wiazard 1/Binder 1 with Improved Binding and Precocious Apprentice? Really I was just trying to determine if this was the quickest way, it's definitely not the most practical.
Improved binding requires binder 1
Precocious apprentice requires wizard 1
If you could take a feat at level 1 and 2 it would work, you can not do this normally without houserules or dark chaos feat shuffle trick, thus most early entry anima mage is wizard 2 binder 1 followed by anima mage

[Zanos]

Honestly I would probably just go Wiz 3/Bind 1 with improved binding. Not really worth all the feats to get in a few levels earlier than that, and you're probably going to be maxing out your wizard advancement anyway. Getting in early will give you two extra levels to squeeze in other prestige classes later if you're build is really tight though, which could be useful.

[prufock]

Anima Mage requires the ability to Bind 2nd level Vestiges and ability to cast 2nd level spells. Is it just me or could you enter this class at level 2?

Human Wizard 1(2 Flaws)
Feats: Bind Vestige, Improved Binding, Precocious Apprentice, Metamagic X

Spells per day: 3/2/1(Assuming 12 Intelligence)
Vestiges: One 2nd Level Vestige

Then take Anima Mage at level two assuming you can get the ranks in Intimidate somehow. Would that work or am I just being dumb?

Not Improved Binding, you take Improved Bind Vestige, which requires Bind Vestige. Improved Binding requires the Soul Binding class feature, which you don't have. And yes, you need to find a way to get Intimidate as a class skill.

You could use dread necromancer instead of wizard to get intimidate. Never mind, they don't have knowledge (planes).

[sambouchah]

Ahhh okay. So Wiz 3/Binder 1/ Anima Mage 10/ PRC X would be the best build?

[Silva Stormrage]

If you get the intimidate ranks, sure*.

You can also in going Wiz 2 (w/ precocious apprentice*) / Binder 1 (w/ Improved Binding at 3) / Anima Mage, and not blow a feat on Bind Vestige...

*=This is assuming your DM does not include the caveat that you must cast 2nd level spells (plural), which is perfectly reasonable. It does say just that, but few people parse it that hard.

Eh that caveat isn't that reasonable. That would imply that sorcerers when don't qualify for being able to cast 2nd level spells at 4th level since they once can cast one type of spell.

[Con_Brio1993]

Ahhh okay. So Wiz 3/Binder 1/ Anima Mage 10/ PRC X would be the best build?

If your DM will allow the divine adaption of the anima mage, Archivist is much better than Wizard entry. You can follow up PRC X with some levels in Tenebrous Apostate.

JaronK made this build:

Binder 1/Archivist 3/Anima Mage 10/Tainted Sorcerer 1/Tenebrous Apostate 5.

Bind Naberius, Zceryll, and Tenebrous. Take that Ritual of Shadow-Walking, along with lots of metamgic feats and the feat that lets you spend a turn undead attempt to counter a spell as an immediate action. Enjoy your endless metamagic, nearly endless spells, insanely high spell save DCs, near unlimited access to every spell ever, and ability to spam creatures out everywhere, plus complete situational awareness. Game broken. And it doesn't use any loops or similar things.

[Chronos]

There are a few problems with the no-Binder entry. The feats Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige require that you not have the Soul Binding class feature, which Anima Mage gives you. So if your DM requires that you keep the prerequisites of a prestige class to keep the PrC itself, it's a Schrödinger's Class. And even if your DM lets you get away with that, or you take Improved Binding the same level as the first level of Anima Mage to self-qualify, it's still two feats burned which end up giving you no benefit. The entry with one level of Binder (because really, would anyone ever not take Improved Binding) is much cleaner, and it's one of the very few cases where losing a level of casting really is worthwhile.

[Vortenger]

Eh that caveat isn't that reasonable. That would imply that sorcerers when don't qualify for being able to cast 2nd level spells at 4th level since they once can cast one type of spell.

Not true. A sorcerer at level 4 can cast, say, scorching ray several times. That is casting multiple level 2 spells. I don't think the game cares if its the same spell. A person who obtains a 2nd level spell through precocius apprentice can cast exactly 1 2nd level spell (no bonus spells from stat, mind), assuming they make their check.

[Gemini476]

Not true. A sorcerer at level 4 can cast, say, scorching ray several times. That is casting multiple level 2 spells. I don't think the game cares if its the same spell. A person who obtains a 2nd level spell through precocius apprentice can cast exactly 1 2nd level spell (no bonus spells from stat, mind), assuming they make their check.
That's patently false, since they could cast that spell tomorrow as well. And the day after that, and the day after that, and the day after that...

That's a lot more than just casting one spell.

[prufock]

There are a few problems with the no-Binder entry. The feats Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige require that you not have the Soul Binding class feature, which Anima Mage gives you. So if your DM requires that you keep the prerequisites of a prestige class to keep the PrC itself, it's a Schrödinger's Class. And even if your DM lets you get away with that, or you take Improved Binding the same level as the first level of Anima Mage to self-qualify, it's still two feats burned which end up giving you no benefit. The entry with one level of Binder (because really, would anyone ever not take Improved Binding) is much cleaner, and it's one of the very few cases where losing a level of casting really is worthwhile.

The line you're referencing is "Characters who have the ability to bind vestiges through other means (such as the soul binding class feature) cannot take this feat. If you become a binder after taking the feat, you lose its benefit."
Importantly, this is under "Special," not "Prerequisites." You don't have Soul Binding when you take it, and you don't become a binder ever (you go straight into Anima Mage). There is no RAW conflict. Later on (when you get Soul Binding for 2nd level vestiges), you retrain the feats (probably to Improved Binding and whatever).

Yeah, it's a greasy loophole, and I won't argue RAI, but RAW it works.


Ahhh okay. So Wiz 3/Binder 1/ Anima Mage 10/ PRC X would be the best build?
Binder 1/Wiz 1/Anima Mage 10/PrC 8 gets there earlier. A human binder 1 with 2 flaws can take Magical Training, Precocious Apprentice, Improved Binding, and any MM feat. It has both required skills as class skills. And you get better HP at level 1.

[Aegis013]

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but if your DM allows Martial Study for first level characters (since technically your IL is 0.5 and not high enough to use maneuvers) the martial wizard variant from UA lets you trade scribe scroll for a fighter bonus feat.

Martial Study (Crusader Strike or Vanguard Strike) grants you intimidate as a class skill.

That lets Wizard 1/Anima Mage 1 work, but only if the DM allows that.

[Vortenger]

That's patently false, since they could cast that spell tomorrow as well. And the day after that, and the day after that, and the day after that...

That's a lot more than just casting one spell.

How does one define the plurality of 'able to cast second level spells'? You can say daily, but that's arbitrary. You imply its indefinitely, but that's also arbitrary (and I don't remember making you my DM). As I said in my post, its however your DM runs it. Precocious Apprentice has been debated since it came out. The Sage had this to say on it: (From the FAQ, ymmv...)
If a 1st-level character takes the Precocious Apprentice
feat, can he cast 2nd-level spells for the purposes of
qualifying for a prestige class or meeting the prerequisites
of a feat?
In the Sage’s opinion, the Precocious Apprentice feat
would not help you qualify for a prestige class or feat because
it gives you a chance at casting a 2nd-level spell, not the
inherent ability to cast 2nd-level spells.
Other people have contended that a class that requires the ability to cast 2nd or 3rd level spells have a per day requirement (as that's how spells play out, it is not unreasonable). In which case PA still would not qualify.

Think what you like. Play what you like. But get permission from the DM, as it isn't as cut and dry as you imply. If your group is like mine and parse every little phrasing out because of M:tG, then the preceding was included for the sake of completeness.

@Aegis: Don't numbers usually work with a round down, minimum one formula? So minimum IL of .5 (min 1) at level 1 could still take Martial Study either way, right?

[Zanos]

There's madness in that FAQ ruling. A 12 Int Wiz 3 also only has 1 level 2 spell per day, and would therefore not qualify.

[Silva Stormrage]

There's madness in that FAQ ruling. A 12 Int Wiz 3 also only has 1 level 2 spell per day, and would therefore not qualify.

Ya if the ruling becomes you need to cast multiple 2nd level spells per day instead of different 2nd level spells known than replace sorcerer with wizard. It still an odd ruling and it doesn't really make much sense.

[Nocharim]

Importantly, this is under "Special," not "Prerequisites." You don't have Soul Binding when you take it, and you don't become a binder ever (you go straight into Anima Mage). There is no RAW conflict. Later on (when you get Soul Binding for 2nd level vestiges), you retrain the feats (probably to Improved Binding and whatever).

Yeah, it's a greasy loophole, and I won't argue RAI, but RAW it works.


Actually, you never gain Soul Binding as a class feature even after entering Anima Mage, you do however gain Soul Binding Bonus, which itself is not Soul Binding and thus does not grant you the ability to bind vestiges. You will be stuck with the single vestige you've gained from the feats and its single glorious ability to fuel the anima mage abilities. Unless you take the second feat to gain another ability that is.

Oh and before you point to the table, Text Over Table.

Sure, by RAW you can enter the class with the feats. You are just artificially limiting the use of the class features by doing so.

[Vortenger]

There's madness in that FAQ ruling. A 12 Int Wiz 3 also only has 1 level 2 spell per day, and would therefore not qualify.

Those exist? Yes, if there were a level 3 wizard who dumped their primary stat for whatever reason, he'd have to wait one more level to qualify. Or, alternatively they could use Precocious Apprentice to grant a second spell casting of a level 2 slot, and thus qualify. Assuming even the elite array for NPC's this is a non-issue. How is any of this mad?

@Silva, At what point was spells known in question here? The only wording in contention is 'able cast 2nd level spells', is it not? As in: "Can cast more than one 2nd level spell". At what needed rate seems to be the question: per day? ever? next January?

And at this point, I feel I need to clarify that I'm all for PA qualifying for early entry. I just felt that it needed to be pointed out that there are many who feel PA cheese is over the top, and that there is some evidence to support that claim. So... you know, ask the DM, common courtesy, that sort of thing.

edit: Nocharim is absolutely right, wow. Never noticed that before.

[Silva Stormrage]

Those exist? Yes, if there were a level 3 wizard who dumped their primary stat for whatever reason, he'd have to wait one more level to qualify. Or, alternatively they could use Precocious Apprentice to grant a second spell casting of a level 2 slot, and thus qualify. Assuming even the elite array for NPC's this is a non-issue. How is any of this mad?

@Silva, At what point was spells known in question here? The only wording in contention is 'able cast 2nd level spells', is it not? As in: "Can cast more than one 2nd level spell". At what needed rate seems to be the question: per day? ever? next January?

And at this point, I feel I need to clarify that I'm all for PA qualifying for early entry. I just felt that it needed to be pointed out that there are many who feel PA cheese is over the top, and that there is some evidence to support that claim. So... you know, ask the DM, common courtesy, that sort of thing.

edit: Nocharim is absolutely right, wow. Never noticed that before.

I recently had a DM rule that a sorcerer didn't qualify for a prestige class that required 2nd level spells because I only knew one 2nd level spell. So thats why I instantly thought of spells known instead of spells per day.

[Chronos]

Quoth prufock:

Later on (when you get Soul Binding for 2nd level vestiges), you retrain the feats (probably to Improved Binding and whatever).
Negative. Retraining can't get you to any situation that you couldn't have gotten to without retraining. You need the Chaos Shuffle for that.


Binder 1/Wiz 1/Anima Mage 10/PrC 8 gets there earlier. A human binder 1 with 2 flaws can take Magical Training, Precocious Apprentice, Improved Binding, and any MM feat.
Perhaps, but you again need to waste a feat, this time on Magical Training.

As for Precocious Apprentice, it's clear that whatever it is it grants you, it doesn't count as "being able to cast 2nd level spells", because the feat changes its behavior "When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells,...", and this is clearly not at the same time that you take the feat. There are other feat-based ways of gaining higher-level spells early, though (personally, I'm fond of the Illumian method, because it applies to all spellcasting classes at once, good for theurge-types).

[A_S]

Negative. Retraining can't get you to any situation that you couldn't have gotten to without retraining. You need the Chaos Shuffle for that.
This isn't quite right, and Anima Mage qualifications is one of the edge cases where it actually matters. The actual rule is:


If the new feat has prerequisites, not only must your character meet them in his current state, but you must also show that he met them at the time you chose the previous feat.
That means you can't do something like say, "I took Feat 1 back then, but now I qualify for Feat 2, and I'd rather have that." There's nothing to prevent you from saying, "I took Feat 1 to meet a prerequisite, but now I have another ability that satisfies that prerequisite, so I can safely retrain Feat 1 into Feat 2 and still qualify for my PrC."

In the case of Anima Mage, you use Improved Bind Vestige to qualify for Anima Mage initially, but once you take enough levels in Anima Mage (3, or 1 + Improved Binding), the Anima Mage's Soul Binding class feature satisfies its own prerequisite, and you can safely retrain Bind Vestige/Improved Bind Vestige into whatever you want.

I personally find this cheesy, and I house rule retraining to work the way you describe, but it's not RAW.

-----

My personal favorite use of Anima Mage early entry is to worm your way into four levels of Dread Witch in an E6 game, which can get you a seriously powerful, immunity-bypassing fear caster:

Human, 2 flaws, martial wizard ACF

1 - Wizard 1 - Bind Vestige, Improved Bind Vestige, Fell Frighten, Precocious Apprentice, Martial Study (devoted spirit)
2 - Anima Mage 1
3 - Dread Witch 1 - Improved Binding
4 - Dread Witch 2 - Cha 15
5 - Dread Witch 3
6 - Dread Witch 4 - Imperious Command

Feat Retraining:
-Improved Bind Vestige > Dreadful Wrath
-Bind Vestige > Spell Mastery

Feats after level 6:
-Signature Spell (Magic Missile)
-Practical Metamagic (Fell Frighten)
-Etc.

[prufock]

If a 1st-level character takes the Precocious Apprentice
feat, can he cast 2nd-level spells for the purposes of
qualifying for a prestige class or meeting the prerequisites
of a feat?
In the Sage’s opinion, the Precocious Apprentice feat
would not help you qualify for a prestige class or feat because
it gives you a chance at casting a 2nd-level spell, not the
inherent ability to cast 2nd-level spells.

Another objection to this - a wizard donning armor suddenly no longer qualifies for the prestige class, because he now only has "a chance at casting a 2nd-level spell!"


Actually, you never gain Soul Binding as a class feature even after entering Anima Mage, you do however gain Soul Binding Bonus, which itself is not Soul Binding and thus does not grant you the ability to bind vestiges. You will be stuck with the single vestige you've gained from the feats and its single glorious ability to fuel the anima mage abilities.
Anima Mage states:

Soul Binding Bonus: At each anima mage level, your soul binding ability improves as if you had also gained a level in the binder class.
You get "binding checks, the effectiveness of your vestige-granted abilities, your ability to bind higher-level vestiges, and the number of vestiges you can bind" as if you had a level in binder. It doesn't state you must have been a binder before entering the prestige class.

Compare with

Spellcasting: At each anima mage level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level.
This wording does require us to take the sorcerer/wizard level before anima mage though.


Negative. Retraining can't get you to any situation that you couldn't have gotten to without retraining.
Oddly untrue. You must meet the requirements of the new feat you're taking, and must have met it at the time you took the feat you're retraining. Once you gain 2nd-level vestiges through the PrC, it self-qualifies and you can get rid of (Improved) Bind Vestige. But you can't take Improved Binding, because you wouldn't have qualified for it at the time.


Perhaps, but you again need to waste a feat, this time on Magical Training.
I said it was earlier, not better! Again, though, you retrain it for something better when you get 2nd-level spells through class abilities.


As for Precocious Apprentice
The only thing really clear about Precocious Apprentice is that it's unclear. It contradicts itself, and raises a list of conflicts with how spellcasting classes qualify for prestige classes. It's a poorly-written feat, and as we're 2 editions beyond 3.5 now, I doubt we'll get an official update on it.

So I'm editing my entry to Binder 1/Sorc or Wiz 1/Anima Mage 10, retraining as you go. If you don't like Precocious Apprentice, Magical Training + Heighten Spell + Versatile Spellcaster + Sanctum Spell should still work too, though now you've added an additional feat you need to worm in somehow.

[Nocharim]

Anima Mage states:


Soul Binding Bonus: At each anima mage level, your soul binding ability improves as if you had also gained a level in the binder class.

You get "binding checks, the effectiveness of your vestige-granted abilities, your ability to bind higher-level vestiges, and the number of vestiges you can bind" as if you had a level in binder. It doesn't state you must have been a binder before entering the prestige class.


I bolded the relevant part to you. You can not improve something that you do not possess. You never have gained Soul Binding as an ability so there is nothing to improve. The feats do not give you Soul Binding, they give you Bind Vestige that has its own limitations of: Only a single vestige at a time from a very limited list and only a single ability (this can be increased to two) from the same very limited list.

EDIT: You also left out a very relevant part in your Soul Binding Bonus quote.


Your anima mage levels and binder levels stackfor the purpose of determining your bonus on binding checks, the effectiveness of your vestige granted abilities, your ability to bind higher level vestiges and the number of vestiges you can bind. You do not, however gain any other benefit a binder would have gained.

You do not gain the ability to bind vestiges if you do not already possess the ability to do so because it is not present in the list of gained abilities.

Also, you seem to have misunderstood my point. I did not dispute the ability to enter the PrC without binder levels, I just pointed out that you benefit from it much less than someone with a single binder level would.

[prufock]

You can not improve something that you do not possess.
Of course you can. "Improve" not being defined in the RAW, we resort to general terminology. If I had "also gained a level in the binder class" my soul binding would have improved from nothing to something. This is a "beneficial addition or change," just as having one dollar is an improvement over no dollars in my amount of dollars.

[Nocharim]

Of course you can. "Improve" not being defined in the RAW, we resort to general terminology. If I had "also gained a level in the binder class" my soul binding would have improved from nothing to something. This is a "beneficial addition or change," just as having one dollar is an improvement over no dollars in my amount of dollars.

Then refer to the word "as if", thus you do not gain a level in binder, thus not granting you the Soul Binding class feature which is the only way to actually gain said class feature by RAW. So you still have nothing to improve, thus you gain nothing by said improvements.

Also, is that the only portion of the whole post you are going to respond to? And not the part that says that you don't gain ability to actually bind vestiges.

[A_S]

Then refer to the word "as if", thus you do not gain a level in binder, thus not granting you the Soul Binding class feature which is the only way to actually gain said class feature by RAW. So you still have nothing to improve, thus you gain nothing by said improvements.

Also, is that the only portion of the whole post you are going to respond to? And not the part that says that you don't gain ability to actually bind vestiges.
His response applies to that part of the post, too.

I thought it was pretty clear, but the argument goes:
My soul binding improves as if I'd gained a level in Binder.
If I'd gained a level in Binder, I'd have gained the ability to bind vestiges (which is certainly an improvement over not being able to bind vestiges).
Therefore, I gain the ability to bind vestiges.
"The ability to bind vestiges" is not a separate class feature. It's just a description of what the Soul Binding class feature does, which is the one being improved.

If you wanna say "you can't improve something you don't have," that's cool, I guess, but I don't see a clear-cut case to be made for it. To me, it seems like if you don't have the ability to bind vestiges, then gaining that ability as if you were taking the first level of Binder is exactly the same as "your soul binding ability improves as if you had also gained a level in the binder class," since level 1 is the level you'd be taking.

[thorr-kan]

Some discussion here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253912
particularly, killianh's contribution.

[Nocharim]

His response applies to that part of the post, too.

I thought it was pretty clear, but the argument goes:
My soul binding improves as if I'd gained a level in Binder.
If I'd gained a level in Binder, I'd have gained the ability to bind vestiges (which is certainly an improvement over not being able to bind vestiges).
Therefore, I gain the ability to bind vestiges.
"The ability to bind vestiges" is not a separate class feature. It's just a description of what the Soul Binding class feature does, which is the one being improved.

The thing is, you do not gain a binder level. You stack anima mage levels to calculate an effective binder level to a list of very specific things. It does not say that you gain the class feature Soul Binding, merely to allow its effects to be improved, if you have it.

And yes, the ability to bind vestiges is a class feature. Its called Soul Binding (Su), the rules to bind vestiges are printed in it.



If you wanna say "you can't improve something you don't have," that's cool, I guess, but I don't see a clear-cut case to be made for it. To me, it seems like if you don't have the ability to bind vestiges, then gaining that ability as if you were taking the first level of Binder is exactly the same as "your soul binding ability improves as if you had also gained a level in the binder class," since level 1 is the level you'd be taking.

"You do not, however gain any other benefit a binder would have gained."
Point me where in the list of abilities it gives the Soul Binding class feature, which is a requirement to bind vestiges due to it providing the rules for the binding itself.
This is exactly the same situation that would happen if you take a PrC that increases your spellcasting ability without having 'Spellcasting' as a class feature. Sure, you might have bonuses to the class feature, but you can't utilize them because you lack the class feature itself.

[A_S]

The thing is, you do not gain a binder level. You stack anima mage levels to calculate an effective binder level to a list of very specific things. It does not say that you gain the class feature Soul Binding, merely to allow its effects to be improved, if you have it.

And yes, the ability to bind vestiges is a class feature. Its called Soul Binding (Su), the rules to bind vestiges are printed in it.

"You do not, however gain any other benefit a binder would have gained."
Point me where in the list of abilities it gives the Soul Binding class feature, which is a requirement to bind vestiges due to it providing the rules for the binding itself.
It says, "Your soul binding ability improves..." By my reading, gaining the ability to bind souls when you couldn't before is an improvement to your soul binding ability.

If Binders had two different class features, one of which was say "Summon Vestige," which allowed you to summon vestiges, and the other of which was "Make Pact," which described what level vestiges you could make pacts with, and Anima Mage only advanced Make Pact, then I'd agree with you. But that's not the case, the ability to bind vestiges is part of the Soul Binding feature, which is the one being improved.

The entire argument for my side of this case is "Gaining an ability you previously did not possess constitutes an improvement of that ability." So, it doesn't have to say "you gain the Soul Binding class feature," that's just what it means to improve your soul binding ability if you don't have it already.


This is exactly the same situation that would happen if you take a PrC that increases your spellcasting ability without having 'Spellcasting' as a class feature. Sure, you might have bonuses to the class feature, but you can't utilize them because you lack the class feature itself.
It's not the same, though, because those all say something like "a spellcasting class to which you belonged before taking this level."

Note that when there's potential confusion on this point, as in the case of Elf Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm), the writers had to add an extra caveat:

If an elf paragon has no levels in wizard, this class feature has no effect.
...because otherwise, it would work the way I'm arguing Anima Mage works.

[Nocharim]

It says, "Your soul binding ability improves..." By my reading, gaining the ability to bind souls when you couldn't before is an improvement to your soul binding ability.

Yet read as written does not explicitly say that you gain Soul Binding, making any interpretation that says that you do an assumption. RAW does not function on assumptions nor implications. You are also failing to read the next few lines that go into specifics on the issue. Specific Trumps General even inside the same paragraph.



If Binders had two different class features, one of which was say "Summon Vestige," which allowed you to summon vestiges, and the other of which was "Make Pact," which described what level vestiges you could make pacts with, and Anima Mage only advanced Make Pact, then I'd agree with you. But that's not the case, the ability to bind vestiges is part of the Soul Binding feature, which is the one being improved.

Tome of Magic, p.10. What does it say on top of the page as a header? And the second subheader? What does the second class feature listed grant you? The ability to summon and bind vestiges.

By your logic Sorcerers Spells Know and Spells Per Day should be separate class feature, but they are not. They are a single class feature under the header of 'Spells' and are perfectly capable of being advanced separately by PrCs. For example: Dragon Discipline grants you bonus spells, does it grant you caster levels or advance spell levels? No it doesn't.

The whole argument about binding being a class feature is moot (since it clearly is a class feature both RAW and RAI) anyway since Soul Binding Bonus is not the same as Soul Binding, you never gain a level in binder and Soul Binding Bonus is still very clear on what it affects by listing them individually and then saying that is all you get, no matter how much logic or reason would dictate that you gain the secondary required superpower to utilize them effectively.



The entire argument for my side of this case is "Gaining an ability you previously did not possess constitutes an improvement of that ability." So, it doesn't have to say "you gain the Soul Binding class feature," that's just what it means to improve your soul binding ability if you don't have it already.

Are you able to bind vestiges?
Yes +1 EBL
No +1 EBL

Still an improvement, you just don't benefit from the improvement.



It's not the same, though, because those all say something like "a spellcasting class to which you belonged before taking this level."


This would only apply were Binders not the only class that grants the ability to bind vestiges. They are unique, thus making any such lines very much redundant.



Note that when there's potential confusion on this point, as in the case of Elf Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm), the writers had to add an extra caveat:

...because otherwise, it would work the way I'm arguing Anima Mage works.

The caveat is there. "You do not, however gain any other benefit a binder would have gained."

[A_S]

Yet read as written does not explicitly say that you gain Soul Binding, making any interpretation that says that you do an assumption. RAW does not function on assumptions. Also, just because the improvement does not grant an immediate change or is conditional it does not make it any less an improvement. Also, the ability to utilize a feature is a truth value instead of a numerical. Just because you add a numerical value to an ability does not grant you the ability itself.
My argument is, it's not an assumption, it's explicitly stated, because "becoming able to bind vestiges" is what it means for your soul binding ability to improve as if you'd gained the first level of Binder. No assumptions. Just my literal interpretation of what the text on the page says. If Anima Mage said "the maximum level of vestige you can bind increases as if..." it would work the way you're describing. But it doesn't. It improves your entire soul binding ability. Gaining the ability to bind vestiges when you gain your first level of Binder is part of the Soul Binding ability (the one that's being improved).


Tome of Magic, p.10. What does it say on top of the page as a header? And the second subheader? What does the second class feature listed grant you? The ability to summon and bind vestiges.

By your logic Sorcerers Spells Know and Spells Per Day should be separate class feature, but they are not. They are a single class feature under the header of 'Spells' and are perfectly capable of being advanced separately by PrCs. For example: Dragon Discipline grants you bonus spells, does it grant you caster levels or advance spell levels? No it doesn't.

The whole argument about binding being a class feature is moot (since it clearly is a class feature both RAW and RAI) anyway since Soul Binding Bonus is not the same as Soul Binding, you never gain a level in binder and Soul Binding Bonus is still very clear on what it affects by listing them individually and then saying that is all you get, no matter how much logic or reason would dictate that you gain the secondary superpower to utilize them.
I think I maybe wasn't clear on what I was arguing on this point, and I'm not sure it's actually germane to the argument we're having. Yes, Soul Binding is the class feature that allows you to bind vestiges. It's also the class feature that's being improved. This is central to my argument. My case is that "becoming able to bind vestiges at level 1" is part of what it means to improve your soul binding ability.


Are you able to bind vestiges?
Yes +1 EBL
No +1 EBL

Still an improvement, you just don't benefit from the improvement.
It doesn't say, "your effective Binder level improves," it says "Your soul binding ability improves." Soul Binding. The ability that, at first level, allows you to bind vestiges. So when your soul binding ability improves as if you'd gained the first level of Binder, you gain the ability to bind vestiges, like a first level Binder.


This would only apply were Binders not the only class that grants the ability to bind vestiges. They are unique, thus making any such lines very much redundant.
As argued above, I disagree.


The caveat is there. "You do not, however gain any other benefit a binder would have gained."
It's not an other benefit. It's the precise benefit that's described as the one that does get improved: your soul binding ability.

-----

I suspect we are not going to convince each other here. Agree to disagree?

[Nocharim]

My argument is, it's not an assumption, it's explicitly stated, because "becoming able to bind vestiges" is what it means for your soul binding ability to improve as if you'd gained the first level of Binder. No assumptions. Just my literal interpretation of what the text on the page says. If Anima Mage said "the maximum level of vestige you can bind increases as if..." it would work the way you're describing. But it doesn't. It improves your entire soul binding ability. Gaining the ability to bind vestiges when you gain your first level of Binder is part of the Soul Binding ability (the one that's being improved).

Now you are just making stuff up. The sentence "becoming able to bind vestiges" does not exist in the rule itself. I also edited the first paragraph on my previous post before your post so you might want to reread it.



I think I maybe wasn't clear on what I was arguing on this point, and I'm not sure it's actually germane to the argument we're having. Yes, Soul Binding is the class feature that allows you to bind vestiges. It's also the class feature that's being improved. This is central to my argument. My case is that "becoming able to bind vestiges at level 1" is part of what it means to improve your soul binding ability.


That is a RAI, this is a RAW discussion. RAW does not state that you gain the ability to summon vestiges, it states that you become better at X, Y and Z even if you don't have the means to utilize said bonuses.
Any improvement on a class feature is dependant on the features existence to function.



It doesn't say, "your effective Binder level improves," it says "Your soul binding ability improves." Soul Binding. The ability that, at first level, allows you to bind vestiges. So when your soul binding ability improves as if you'd gained the first level of Binder, you gain the ability to bind vestiges, like a first level Binder.

Ok, lets try this again.

Are you able to bind vestiges?
Yes +1
No +1

Still does not mean its not an improvement. You are also omitting the "as if you had gained a level in the binder class" and its next sentence, which is important as it makes clear that you are only emulating the class level on specific features, not gaining the class level itself as a whole.



It's not an other benefit. It's the precise benefit that's described as the one that does get improved: your soul binding ability.

Except that it is an other benefit since it is not explicitly listed! Your soul binding ability does not improve, its specific functions do. This is same when Vow of Poverty characters can not use doors because the list on what they can do is specific and the use of doors is omitted.



I suspect we are not going to convince each other here. Agree to disagree?

I would say no to that since you are trying to milk power by intentionally misreading a (half-)sentence to weasel out entry requirements. Anima Mage never self-qualifies to its entry requirements so you can not use dark chaos shuffle or any other mean to rid yourself of the prequisites to gain more power. Nor does the class give you additional binding abilities since that is tied to the Soul Binding class feature, which the class does not provide to you.

[A_S]

*shrug*

I have no further arguments. I wish you wouldn't characterize my motives here as malicious; I honestly disagree with your assessment of the RAW in this case, and your arguments make as little sense to me as mine obviously do to you.

[Nocharim]

*shrug*

I have no further arguments. I wish you wouldn't characterize my motives here as malicious; I honestly disagree with your assessment of the RAW in this case, and your arguments make as little sense to me as mine obviously do to you.

Intentionally misreading something is not inherently malicious. My issue with your posts have been that some of what you claim to be RAW are actually RAI and those would've been wrong anyway since the RAI is that in order to gain proper binding abilities you must take the first level of the Binder class.

[prufock]

Then refer to the word "as if", thus you do not gain a level in binder, thus not granting you the Soul Binding class feature which is the only way to actually gain said class feature by RAW. So you still have nothing to improve, thus you gain nothing by said improvements.
Having soul binding is an improvement over not having soul binding.
Binders gain soul binding.
Anima mage improves your soul binding as if you gained a level of binder.
Therefore anima mage gives you soul binding.
There is no logical contradiction here.


Also, is that the only portion of the whole post you are going to respond to?
It was the only relevant part.


And not the part that says that you don't gain ability to actually bind vestiges.
It does not say this.


"You do not, however gain any other benefit a binder would have gained."
Correct. Apart from the benefits listed, you don't gain any other benefits of the binder class (such as Pact Augmentation, Soul Guardian, and bonus feats). Improving Soul Binding as if you had gained a level of binder IS a listed benefit.


By your logic Sorcerers Spells Know and Spells Per Day should be separate class feature, but they are not.
Dragon Disciple has "Bonus Spells," with specific instructions that you must be able to cast spells of that level already and that it applies "as if from having a high ability score." Soul Binding Bonus has no similar limitations.


Point me where in the list of abilities it gives the Soul Binding class feature, which is a requirement to bind vestiges due to it providing the rules for the binding itself.


Soul Binding Bonus: At each anima mage level, your soul binding ability improves as if you had also gained a level in the binder class.
Right there.


Are you able to bind vestiges?
Yes +1 EBL
No +1 EBL

Still an improvement, you just don't benefit from the improvement.
That is an improvement, but is not an improvement "as if you had also gained a level in the binder class."


Except that it is an other benefit since it is not explicitly listed!
It is explicitly listed in the first sentence.

These are the RAW arguments. RAI offers other arguments.
1. Knight of the Sacred Seal requires the Soul Binding class feature. Anima Mage does not.
2. Feats exist that grant you the binding prerequisite of AM in the same book.
3. It would have been trivially easy to reword the class feature so that Soul Binding was required to progress.

If your reading is consistent, does that mean classes like Archmage don't increase caster level?

[Nocharim]

Soul Binding Bonus: At each anima mage level, your soul binding ability improves as if you had also gained a level in the binder class.

Right there.


If that were worded "At each anima mage level, your soul binding class feature improves as if you had also gained a level in the binder class" what you said would be true. It however does not. Thus, you do not gain the class feature itself, which is mandatory to the binding of vestiges

Lets add that it is a clearly a reference to improve the way that you've gained entry to the PrC itself. You still have "soul binding ability" from the feats, so that is what you are improving. On the other hand, if you had a binder level that granted Soul Binding class feature it would be the one to improve. There is no third option to gain soul binding so you are stuck with either of the two.

Or are you suggesting that they actually gain a binder level? If so, you are breaking the feat chain and invalidating the entry to the PrC by choosing the first level of the PrC.



These are the RAW arguments. RAI offers other arguments.
1. Knight of the Sacred Seal requires the Soul Binding class feature. Anima Mage does not.
2. Feats exist that grant you the binding prerequisite of AM in the same book.
3. It would have been trivially easy to reword the class feature so that Soul Binding was required to progress.


1 & 3. Sloppy and inconsistent editing is an indicator of intent these days?
2. The feats have their own printed, specific rules on what it grants and does not grant you. While they are a soul binding ability they are not the Soul Binding class feature. The feat chain is also improved by the Soul Binding Bonus, but not to the extent of which Soul Binding class feature is improved.
Not to mention that even if you do gain the ability to bind from AM you are still limited by the feats themselves as to what you can do with it.


I am really getting tired of repeating my arguments. Ignore the rules on your own convenience, but remember this: No sane DM will allow anything to self-qualify to its prequisites and if this much argument comes from a reading of a fluff sentence it is likely that he/she will disallow it to avoid a headache of an argument about sematics. Unless of course you omit the relevant part of the rules, but that would be cheating.

[prufock]

If that were worded "At each anima mage level, your soul binding class feature improves as if you had also gained a level in the binder class" what you said would be true. It however does not.

It is both unnecessary and self-contradictory. You're saying that the soul binding class feature is not the same as soul binding ability. The class requires the ability to bind 2nd-level vestiges. So now you can't enter the class at all.

It can't be both ways. Either it's an ability (which both allows you to enter the class and improve) or it isn't (which disallows both).


Lets add that it is a clearly a reference to improve the way that you've gained entry to the PrC itself. You still have "soul binding ability" from the feats, so that is what you are improving.
If the class feature isn't included as "ability," then neither is the feat. In fact, neither uses "ability" to refer to its own benefits. However, the bind vestige feat "Special" section does have this to say: "Characters who have the ability to bind vestiges through other means (such as the soul binding class feature) cannot take this feat."

The class feature is an "ability," anima mage improves it.


On the other hand, if you had a binder level that granted Soul Binding class feature it would be the one to improve. There is no third option to gain soul binding so you are stuck with either of the two.
It says "as if you had also gained a level of binder." It has nothing to say about the feat. The wording contradicts your agrument.


Or are you suggesting that they actually gain a binder level? If so, you are breaking the feat chain and invalidating the entry to the PrC by choosing the first level of the PrC.
No, I'm saying that "your soul binding ability improves as if you had also gained a level in the binder class." Breaking the feat chain only happens if you actually become a binder, which you do not.


1 & 3. Sloppy and inconsistent editing is an indicator of intent these days?
Assuming incompetence of design when incompetence of design hasn't been shown doesn't prove your point.


2. The feats have their own printed, specific rules on what it grants and does not grant you. While they are a soul binding ability they are not the Soul Binding class feature. The feat chain is also improved by the Soul Binding Bonus, but not to the extent of which Soul Binding class feature is improved.
The feats don't grant the soul binding ability, they grant you the ability to bind vestiges. The only time "soul binding" is used in the feat description is to indicate that the feat isn't. So it isn't improved by the anima mage class feature.


I am really getting tired of repeating my arguments. Ignore the rules on your own convenience, but remember this: No sane DM will allow anything to self-qualify to its prequisites and if this much argument comes from a reading of a fluff sentence it is likely that he/she will disallow it to avoid a headache of an argument about sematics. Unless of course you omit the relevant part of the rules, but that would be cheating
You're repeating incorrect arguments. Improvement is improvement, as if you gained a level of binder. "No sane DM" is a "no true Scotsman" fallacy. So-called "fluff" sentence is a part of the class feature. You don't like that it works, but it works.