DM nerfing eidetic spellcaster

[geekintheground]

i want to play a wizard, but am severely paranoid that my book will be taken. so i asked about the eidetic spellcaster ACF. he said he would increase the cost to learn spells if i took it. now, i was gonna be an elven generalist with collegiate wizard, so i learn plenty of spells for free.

is my DM being reasonable? if so, should i just bite the bullet and pay the extra? im not sure how MUCH extra, but its probably less than 2x

[Zanos]

Eidetic Wizards can't make use of blessed books at higher levels, so will typically pay more for spells just on that. I guess you save money being Eidetic if your DM frequently sets your spellbooks on fire, but otherwise I found that it has little mechanical impact, unless your DM likes to capture you and have people take your spellbooks.

[Ansem]

i want to play a wizard, but am severely paranoid that my book will be taken. so i asked about the eidetic spellcaster ACF. he said he would increase the cost to learn spells if i took it. now, i was gonna be an elven generalist with collegiate wizard, so i learn plenty of spells for free.

is my DM being reasonable? if so, should i just bite the bullet and pay the extra? im not sure how MUCH extra, but its probably less than 2x
Is he saying that because he WANTS to screw you over or he doesn't know what Eidetic spellcaster really is.

The description of it specifically states that it takes the same process as learning spells normally.
You won't need to pay for scribing it in your spellbook (and you take the same time etc) but another Wizard might still ask for some cash so you can copy his spells. Learning spells themselves doesn't cost you anything if you copy from scrolls or another Wizard gives them for free.

[Urpriest]

Your DM probably isn't justified in this particular nerf, but it's a pretty mild restriction, so I would just let it slide. Got to pick your battles.

[Callin]

You could always go the Tattoo route. Or making your spellbook not look like a spellbook.

[cakellene]

Is he saying that because he WANTS to screw you over or he doesn't know what Eidetic spellcaster really is.

The description of it specifically states that it takes the same process as learning spells normally.
You won't need to pay for scribing it in your spellbook (and you take the same time etc) but another Wizard might still ask for some cash so you can copy his spells. Learning spells themselves doesn't cost you anything if you copy from scrolls or another Wizard gives them for free.

That's not what the ACF text says. It states you spend same amount, just for incenses instead of inks.

[geekintheground]

just learned that it will be, in fact 1.5x the cost so...

[Slipperychicken]

just learned that it will be, in fact 1.5x the cost so...

That's pretty reasonable actually, assuming that you wouldn't have done much with Scribe Scroll or your familiar anyway. It's a low price to rest assured that your spellbook will never be stolen from you.

Besides, you get to smoke spells. That's so freaking awesome.

[nedz]

It's a lot cheaper than having your spell books stolen.

Regular Wizards often make backup copies of their books anyway — which would double the cost.

I think it's a silly nerf, but it's fairly irrelevant.

[Zanos]

just learned that it will be, in fact 1.5x the cost so...
If that's just for the incense vs. ink, that's not too bad.

[cakellene]

If that's just for the incense vs. ink, that's not too bad.

Sounds like a nerf for sake of nerfing to me.

[Slipperychicken]

Sounds like a nerf for sake of nerfing to me.

Yeah, but it's nothing to freak out about. That extra cost isn't going to be a real impediment to a decently-played wizard.

[cakellene]

Yeah, but it's nothing to freak out about. That extra cost isn't going to be a real impediment to a decently-played wizard.

Except a normal wizard gets spells much cheaper once factoring in Boccob's Spellbook.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Unless you plan on getting tons of spells beyond your free ones the nerf won't make a notable difference in practice.
Especially not with Elven Generalist and Collegiate Wizard.

If your DM thinks Eidetic Spellcaster is overpowered otherwise and the nerf makes him feel better about it i'd just let it slide.
It's not worth arguing about.

[TuggyNE]

As several others have said, this nerf is not worth protesting. You're still a perfectly good wizard, and it's not as though WBL is the main limit on your power anyway.

Whether the nerf is actually fully justified I'm not sure, but since wizards normally deserve nerfing of a rather more substantial sort it's moot.

[Jeff the Green]

As several others have said, this nerf is not worth protesting. You're still a perfectly good wizard, and it's not as though WBL is the main limit on your power anyway.

Whether the nerf is actually fully justified I'm not sure, but since wizards normally deserve nerfing of a rather more substantial sort it's moot.

Seconded. Honestly, the best way (i.e. most justified and effective) to nerf a Wizard or Archivist is to significantly limit spell availability. They should still have more versatility than their spontaneous counterparts, but they shouldn't be able to get every useful spell as easily as they can now. This particular nerf is silly because it's just for eidetic Wizard and increasing the cost by 50% isn't significant, but it's a step in the right direction.

[nedz]

As several others have said, this nerf is not worth protesting. You're still a perfectly good wizard, and it's not as though WBL is the main limit on your power anyway.

Whether the nerf is actually fully justified I'm not sure, but since wizards normally deserve nerfing of a rather more substantial sort it's moot.

Yes, Eidetic Spellcaster is overpowered because Wizard.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's a lot cheaper than having your spell books stolen.

Regular Wizards often make backup copies of their books anyway — which would double the cost.

I think it's a silly nerf, but it's fairly irrelevant.

Actually, backup copies cost half and take half the time to scribe.


Replacing and Copying Spellbooks

A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook. If she already has a particular spell prepared, she can write it directly into a new book at a cost of 100 gp per page (as noted in Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, above). The process wipes the prepared spell from her mind, just as casting it would. If she does not have the spell prepared, she can prepare it from a borrowed spellbook and then write it into a new book.

Duplicating an existing spellbook uses the same procedure as replacing it, but the task is much easier. The time requirement and cost per page are halved. Source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#replacingandCopyingSpellbooks)

As for BBB; people never do the math on this thing right.

It costs a flat 12,500gp regardless of how full you fill it. When it's full the pages cost a net 12.5gp each. If, on the other hand, you only scribe the spells that a wizard normally gets at level up in it after level 7 (the earliest you could reasonably afford it and the soonest you could craft it yourself) that's only 184 pages; a cost of 67.93gp per page. Unless you scribe extras it won't actually be cheaper than normal scribing until you hit 17.

Don't get me wrong, it's pretty much always worth it in the end, but it's a fairly sizable up-front cost and takes a fair amount of scribing before it actually becomes a discount.

[geekintheground]

alright guys, thanks. decided to go with it because wizards look/sound fun and thats what i'm here for.

[Threadnaught]

As for BBB; people never do the math on this thing right.

Oh dear, numbers. My one weakness.


It costs a flat 12,500gp..

12,500gp to buy or 6,250gp, 500xp and 13 days to craft. Why do people never craft it? It's one of the more useful items.


..regardless of how full you fill it. When it's full the pages cost a net 12.5gp each.

Okay, all right no problem then, each page in a standard Spellbook costs 100.15gp when it's full, so it's a win for the Blessed Book so far.


If, on the other hand, you only scribe the spells that a wizard normally gets at level up in it after level 7 (the earliest you could reasonably afford it and the soonest you could craft it yourself) that's only 184 pages; a cost of 67.93gp per page.

Okay, that's actually not a problem, that's still cheaper than scribing Spells into regular Spellbooks. The Blessed Book actually starts showing value for money once you've scribed 125 pages, at 100gp per page when compared with a regular Spellbook's 100.15gp per page. To get the same amount of pages filled out in both books, the Spellbooks are still more expensive at 100.24gp per page. Once you get to the point where you expect to get through multiple Spellbooks, it's far more cost effective to get a Blessed Book. So the Wizard who keeps buying their 15gp Spellbooks may be laughing at the one who bought a Blessed Book for 12,500gp, but once they both get to 125 pages and if they've been keeping track of expenses, the Spellbook user is gonna be in for a quite nasty 30gp shock. And it only increases from there.

The hypothetical Spellbook user is annoyed at the Blessed Book user and decides to match them in pages, buying and filling out ten Spellbooks for 100,150gp, Blessed Book guy just buys a second Blessed Book, fills it with the exact same Spells (both Wizard have the exact same 1000 Spell levels) and gives it to the Spellbook user, 25000gp total cost.

[Kelb_Panthera]

alright guys, thanks. decided to go with it because wizards look/sound fun and thats what i'm here for.

Umm.... Have you ever played an arcanist before?

I don't mean to scare you but wizards take a pretty intense level of thought. Some foresight and info gathering skill is necessary to squeeze the full power out of the class. Don't get me wrong, it can be a lot of fun if you don't mind the book keeping but it's certainly not the easiest class to play.

Here's a pro tip that many a new wizard misses; you don't have to prepare a spell in every slot at the beginning of the day. You can prepare spells as needed if you leave some slots opened and as long as you have 15 minutes to spare. Obviously, what proportion of your allotment you leave open is up to you to decide based on how many slots you have, what you know about what's ahead, and your own preference for acceptable risk. Every slot left open for utility is one less combat spell available.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Stuff

Oh I get it. It's just that I regularly see people saying that it makes your spellbook free but that's misleading. It's discounted, heavily so if you actually fill the thing, but not right away.

Until you actually scribe that 125th page (63rd if you craft it) its more expensive than standard books and that can make things tight for a couple of adventures if you pick it up too soon.

[geekintheground]

Umm.... Have you ever played an arcanist before?

I don't mean to scare you but wizards take a pretty intense level of thought. Some foresight and info gathering skill is necessary to squeeze the full power out of the class. Don't get me wrong, it can be a lot of fun if you don't mind the book keeping but it's certainly not the easiest class to play.

Here's a pro tip that many a new wizard misses; you don't have to prepare a spell in every slot at the beginning of the day. You can prepare spells as needed if you leave some slots opened and as long as you have 15 minutes to spare. Obviously, what proportion of your allotment you leave open is up to you to decide based on how many slots you have, what you know about what's ahead, and your own preference for acceptable risk. Every slot left open for utility is one less combat spell available.

no, i've never played any arcane caster before. and yes, i know that its quite daunting. but i've done plenty of research and think i can manage not to mess up badly enough that im just dead weight. i know about leaving slots unfilled to fill later (however it HAD slipped my mind, thanks for reminding me :smallsmile: ).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Long as you know what you're getting yourself into.

Easiest way to avoid being dead weight is to always pack a few buffs to sprinkle around. War weaver is an excellent buffer PrC in heroes of battle, should you decide you like doing the buffer thing. Hard to go wrong with summon monster too.

[Talya]

Take Collegiate Wizard, too. 5 free spells per level laugh at his 1.5 modifier.

[Threadnaught]

Oh I get it. It's just that I regularly see people saying that it makes your spellbook free but that's misleading. It's discounted, heavily so if you actually fill the thing, but not right away.

I get that, I just saw you use some numbers and had to work out whether they were accurate. The amount of pages you use are accurate, but the way they're used is not the best use for your gp. If you're scribing the Spells gained from levelling up, you're better off spending as little as 0.15gp per page rather than the minimum of 6.25gp (0.5xp and 19 minutes) per page, as they have no scribe cost to begin with.


Until you actually scribe that 125th page (63rd if you craft it) its more expensive than standard books and that can make things tight for a couple of adventures if you pick it up too soon.

Yeah, it's a massive short term loss, for a considerable long term gain. Pick it up as soon as you can and you can benefit from additional Spells (disregarding ones gained by levelling) sooner.

If you have an Artificer in the party, you may be able to get one as soon as level 5, if you're willing to blow your entire WBL and are able to convince another PC's player to pay the remaining 850gp on that one time cost. It may not be the optimal thing to do in terms of overall power, but if you just scribe two additional Spells per level, that's a saving of up to 14350 by 20th level if you start right away, you should see savings starting level 12 with an extra 950gp. Once you've paid back your team, you're left with an extra 100gp, give it to the Artificer for being kind enough to make the book 7 levels ago.
Of course your WBL for level 5 may be 4200 lower because of Spellbook and not so easy going DM, so the amount you'd have to borrow is probably a little closer to 5050gp.


As for you geekintheground, Elven Generalist and Collegiate Wizard gets you 61 additional Spells across 20 levels. That's a large increase to the 41 + Intelligence modifier (at 1st level) + Cantrips you were limited to before. Ignoring Cantrips (because you get all those anyway) you more than double the Spells you're guaranteed to get. So you can do more without spending a single cp.
Even better, Eidetic Spellcaster means you don't have a Spellbook weighing down your WBL since all the Spells are in your head, meaning you don't lose out on Intellignece Modifier x 100 + 2500gp from your WBL at 1st level, or at least 500gp per level afterward. Meaning even with strict adherence to WBL and the Spellbook's 100gp per page filled, your DM can't lower your WBL based on how many Spells you can choose to cast.


Also, I can't believe I didn't correct Kelb for misspelling maths. It isn't hard. :smalltongue:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Wait, what? Where did I misspell something?

[Greenish]

Take Collegiate Wizard, too. 5 free spells per level laugh at his 1.5 modifier.

now, i was gonna be an elven generalist with collegiate wizard, so i learn plenty of spells for free.:smallamused:

[Karnith]

Wait, what? Where did I misspell something?
North Americans usually shorten "mathematics" to "math," whereas elsewhere in the English-speaking world the word is usually shortened to "maths." Hence the need to "correct" a "misspelling."

[Kelb_Panthera]

North Americans usually say "math" while elsewhere in the English-speaking world it's usually shortened to "maths." Hence the need to "correct" a "misspelling."

Ah. I've really got to stop accidentally killing things. The pile of corpses in my wake is getting big enough to draw attention. Stupid jokes and their low HP.

[Rubik]

You might consider a 2 level dip in geometer (PrC from C.Arc.). Condensing 9th level spells into a single page is quite the money-saver. Of course, going with Eidetic Spellcaster, you'd be able to save it in a proportionally smaller mental inventory space inside your head -- or so I would imagine.

[Slipperychicken]

You might consider a 2 level dip in geometer (PrC from C.Arc.). Condensing 9th level spells into a single pages is quite the money-saver. Of course, going with Eidetic Spellcaster, you'd be able to save it in a proportionally smaller mental inventory space inside your head -- or so I would imagine.

The RAW is really sketchy there since there aren't pages involved, and it's also clearly trying to circumvent the nerf. I wouldn't recommend trying it.

[JaronK]

If the DM is making this nerf I see no point in taking Eidetic Spellcaster unless you plan to rely entirely on free spells (which, with the substitutions and such you're taking, is a possibility).

Just hide your Spellbook in a Portable Hole or Enveloping Pit, then hide that in a Sashling (Races of the Wild) or hidden pocket (Dungeonscape). Then make a fake spellbook full of Explosive Runes and hide that in your backpack.

JaronK

[Rubik]

If the DM is making this nerf I see no point in taking Eidetic Spellcaster unless you plan to rely entirely on free spells (which, with the substitutions and such you're taking, is a possibility).

Just hide your Spellbook in a Portable Hole or Enveloping Pit, then hide that in a Sashling (Races of the Wild) or hidden pocket (Dungeonscape). Then make a fake spellbook full of Explosive Runes and hide that in your backpack.

JaronKDon't forget a contingent Dispel (minimum caster level) on each page to attempt a dispel whenever someone other than you or your familiar opens the book.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Oh! hoard gullet. 2nd level spell that lasts hrs/level and creates an extradimensional space whose portal is the caster's mouth. Great for storage of all kinds as long as the object you're storing isn't too big.

[Rubik]

Oh! hoard gullet. 2nd level spell that lasts hrs/level and creates an extradimensional space whose portal is the caster's mouth. Great for storage of all kinds as long as the object you're storing isn't too big.Dragon Magic says it's a 1st level spell.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Is it? Gotta stop going from memory when dndtools is a thing.

[Threadnaught]

If the DM is making this nerf I see no point in taking Eidetic Spellcaster unless you plan to rely entirely on free spells (which, with the substitutions and such you're taking, is a possibility).

Eidetic Spellcaster is being taken, with the assumption that the DM may attack the Spellbook when the Wizard is least able to protect it.

I really don't see how this nerf is such a problem. Sure if geekintheground wants to learn every Spell, it'll cost a fortune, but that is unnecessary and this Wizard gets to learn 5 Spells every time they level up. There's a lot to choose from, but 5 Spells a level gives access to most tricks aspiring Wizards are encouraged to master.


Ah. I've really got to stop accidentally killing things. The pile of corpses in my wake is getting big enough to draw attention. Stupid jokes and their low HP.

Don't feel bad Kelb, your reaction was priceless. :smallbiggrin:

[Rubik]

...it'll cost a fortune, but that is unnecessary and this Wizard gets to learn 5 Spells every time they level up.Is the wizards a dvati? :smallconfused: Is they a hiveminds? How are there more than one wizards? Or is you just using the wrong pronoun? Or do yousa talk like Jar Jar Binks IRL?


Don't feel bad Kelb, your reaction was priceless. :smallbiggrin:Speaking of corrections...

[Khosan]

Is the wizards a dvati? :smallconfused: Is they a hiveminds? How are there more than one wizards? Or is you just using the wrong pronoun? Or do you talk like Jar Jar Binks IRL?

I'm pretty sure using 'they' as a singular gender-neutral pronoun is a perfectly valid use of the word.

[Rubik]

I'm pretty sure using 'they' as a singular gender-neutral pronoun is a perfectly valid use of the word.But it sounds hideous. "He" at least is the right grammatical number, and it's considered gender-neutral if the gender of something isn't known (unless it's an object, such as a boat or a car, in which case "she" is often used, if one wants to anthropomorphosize it).

[nedz]

Is the wizards a dvati? :smallconfused: Is they a hiveminds? How are there more than one wizards? Or is you just using the wrong pronoun? Or do yousa talk like Jar Jar Binks IRL?

Speaking of corrections...

Highly amusing correction, but unfortunately wrong. Threadnaught's grammar is fine. Maybe it's a Tomato / Tomato thing ?

[Threadnaught]

Is the wizards a dvati? :smallconfused: Is they a hiveminds? How are there more than one wizards? Or is you just using the wrong pronoun? Or do yousa talk like Jar Jar Binks IRL?

They = the Wizard. Male, female, single person, army of one. They represents all of these without making any assumptions.

They, is always gender neutral. He, isn't.


Highly amusing correction, but unfortunately wrong. Threadnaught's grammar is fine. Maybe it's a Tomato / Tomato thing ?

And unnecessary, don't forget about that. They (Rubik) put in all those unnecessary mistakes, just to hammer in a blunt*. I bet they weren't expecting their post to fall apart so easily.
Oh sorry Rubik, bit rude to refer to you as if you're not here.


*What else do you call a point, without a point?