Curbing Optimization in New Campaign

[Kaveman26]

I am in the process of designing an upcoming long running campaign for a seasoned group of six players. None of which are of the High Op mindset, but put enough thought and effort into using "breakable" spells that they can trivialize of bypass many challenges.

Basic Premise: Pathfinder+3.5

A lower powered, sparse magic item dungeon crawl with gameply being more devoted to game mechanics than role play.

A sprawling underground complex containing arcana and relics of a stronger nature than most commonly associated with in the campaign world has been discovered, and the perimeter around this structure and main entry points have developed into a Dungeon Delving Boom Town. Think Deadwood centered around a dungeon.

I want the first phases of the campaign to feel sparse. A magic sword is not just bought from the local Magic Mart, but is a family heirloom that has generations of history. Magic is powerful and rare.

Concerns:

Magic in general, especially primary casters can trivialize a lot of content in game. I want their to be thought put into class roles and effort to overcome challenges. I want conflict to be confronted, not circumvented.

Preliminary Solutions:

Banned or Highly Nerfed Spells:
*Full Teleport line
*Plane Shift
*Word of Recall
*No Flight, Air Walk, Wind Walk, Word of Recall,
*Stone Shape
*Reincarnate, Raise Dead, Ressurection etc
*Gate
*Astral Projection
*Soften Earth/Mud
*Transmute Rock/Mud
*Simulacrum
*Clone

Summon Monster/Planar Ally Chains will be highly nerfed but have much longer durations. I don't want disposable critters to trigger traps etc. Probably make these accesible as longer cast time 1 or 2 per days, but the creature you summon will stay with you for hours instead of minutes

Prestige Classes:

I want to get the feel and mechanics of some 3.5 Prestige Classes and I am thinking of tweaking most to be class archetypes that you use outright instead of feat taxing and worrying about entry. With magic items initially sparse and casting altered I want players to feel like they can get their "theme" up and running quickly.

In terms of highly dangerous prestige classes to avoid "porting" and spells that can make a dungeon crawl yawn worthy, am I missing anything in my Banned/Nerf List? Any suggestions of experiences with my basic premise?

[hymer]

A simple solution is the ban on tiers 1 and 2.
A more involved solution is to talk to your players about this. Talk to them before they make characters, talk to them again after they've made their characters, and talk to them again every time they go up in level and/or acquire a new ability or spell.

[cakellene]

Just make sure players are on board. If they are, no restrictions needed. If not, they will likeky resent the restrictions and find a way to break the campaign.

[Kaveman26]

A simple solution is the ban on tiers 1 and 2.
A more involved solution is to talk to your players about this. Talk to them before they make characters, talk to them again after they've made their characters, and talk to them again every time they go up in level and/or acquire a new ability or spell.

I realize I am toeing a line here, but I don't want to outright wave off a set of classes, just trim some of the more breakable elements of those classes. I am fine with druids and wizards "outshining" Tier 3-4 classes, I just want to avoid them bypassing challenges all together or making them moot points. My players are comfortable with tier system and if they want to make a Tier 5 that will be outclassed by a Tier 1 they don't have hard feelings.

If they want the wizard to fireball a locked door into melted slag instead of a rogue picking a lock that is fine. If they want to bypass the room of uncomfortable challenge rating by teleporting around it or flying over it...that is where I am trying to curb the abilities.

[hymer]

Why is it bad for them to expend their resources in bypassing an encounter they think is too hard for them? Especially since dying means not coming back, from looking at your preliminary ban list.
Have you considered learning to deal with it, rather than nerfing it?

Anyway, if that is out of the question, I echo cakellene (ellene-ene-e) and myself. Talk to the players, tell them what you're trying to achieve. Let them rein themselves in rather than feel frustration at having you do it.

[Tengu_temp]

Just make sure players are on board. If they are, no restrictions needed. If not, they will likeky resent the restrictions and find a way to break the campaign.

This. Just let the players know the vague power level you expect and make sure they're okay with it, and that takes care of the balancing. And if they're not okay with it, no amount of arbitrary bans will stop them from optimizing the **** out of their characters, at most it will just make it trickier.

[Kaveman26]

I am confident they won't feel frustrated with those restrictions provided they are clear from onset. It will be known prior to character creation what restrictions are intended and why. I'm not worried about player rebellion or mutiny in the least.

I'm mostly looking for feedback on game altering spells or abilities like gate or teleport. I think my original list gets the worst offenders but I know the playground is far wiser than I in that regard.

As far as them needing an escape plan or means to avoid certain death encounters, they will know death in this campaign is permanent, which is not an alien concept for our past excursions. I just want to avoid cart Blanche in circumventing

[johnbragg]

A simple solution is the ban on tiers 1 and 2.

A modified version is to offer nerfed versions of the classic Tier 1 classes.

I've been shopping a Cleric-replacement that reduces spellcasting to Domains only--one spell per spell level, chosen from four domain spells. So the player who wants to play Durkon gets a character class that fluffs and feels like a classic D&D mace-and-plate-and-shield Cleric. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318391

I also have an idea for a non-wildshaping, melee-alergic Druid based on the NPC Adept chassis.

I'm still trying to figure out a Tier 3-4 generalist arcane caster.

[Spuddles]

A simple solution is the ban on tiers 1 and 2.
A more involved solution is to talk to your players about this. Talk to them before they make characters, talk to them again after they've made their characters, and talk to them again every time they go up in level and/or acquire a new ability or spell.

Still super easy to circumvent. You can get t1 shenanigans out of a healer.

[hymer]

@ Spuddles: There are tables where shenanigans aren't done. Healers at least are unlikely to break the game by just using their abilities in the most straight-forward way. Once you're at a shenanigan-table, it's always super easy to circumvent just about any simple solution. Equipment alone can produce shenanigans.

[Brookshw]

I have to say Kaveman, I'm surprised at this. From your campaign logs it seemed like your group had settled into their comfort zone and that you all were more than willing to accept restrictions in a very reasonable way. Couldn't you simply identify those spells you do want (d door for instance in the case of travel magic) and say the rest are off the table? I guess for the sake of your question maybe add passwall, polymorph to get movement (earth glide for example), disintegrate no longer works on objects but will effect creatures regardless of undead etc that would normally be immune after the nerf.

Think you'll be doing a campaign log? Who's playing?

Edit: heck, hand them a shovel and pickaxe and say that's the closest they'll get.

[johnbragg]

If you want shenanigans, you can get shenanigans. The problem with the Tier 1s (and sometimes 2s) is that they don't need shenanigans to be unbalancing and make things unfun.

[hymer]

Couldn't you simply identify those spells you do want (d door for instance in the case of travel magic) and say the rest are off the table?

He's trying to find out which spells those are, and looking for suggestions.

[Spuddles]

@ Spuddles: There are tables where shenanigans aren't done. Healers at least are unlikely to break the game by just using their abilities in the most straight-forward way. Once you're at a shenanigan-table, it's always super easy to circumvent just about any simple solution. Equipment alone can produce shenanigans.

The why even bother banning T1 & T2? Your advice makes no sense.

[Spuddles]

If you want shenanigans, you can get shenanigans. The problem with the Tier 1s (and sometimes 2s) is that they don't need shenanigans to be unbalancing and make things unfun.

No, the problem are spells. If you dont ban the spells, then even a fighter with cross class ranks in UMD can cast teleport. No one likes to talk about it, but the only thing that makes t1 & t2 tiers one two, are the spells. It has nothing to do with the chassis; or at least very little.

[hymer]

The why even bother banning T1 & T2? Your advice makes no sense.

Because tiers 1 and 2 can easily break the game in half by just using their abilities in the most straight-forward way.

[Brookshw]

He's trying to find out which spells those are, and looking for suggestions.

Well yes, that's why I threw out a few. But its a) a massive task to list every manner and b) a generally well established group, seems easier to just talk to them about his intent, identify those he's willing to permit, and trust them to follow it or raise a question to him if they aren't sure if something aligns with that intent. Seems like most of them have played together for years and there's a high level of trust.

[hymer]

Ah, ok. Well, I agree. :smallsmile:

[Forum Explorer]

Shapeshifting spells and abilities. Those can allow you to avoid so many obstacles or trivialize them as well.

[BWR]

The easiest is probably to just talk to your group beforehand, state what sort of game you want to run, list the sorts of things you want them to avoid (teleporting, summons disposing of traps, etc.), then have them run their characters by you before game starts.
Most people will respond quite well to this, and it saves you a lot the trouble of coming up with a comprehensive list ahead of time.

[johnbragg]

If you want shenanigans, you can get shenanigans. The problem with the Tier 1s (and sometimes 2s) is that they don't need shenanigans to be unbalancing and make things unfun.


No, the problem are spells. If you dont ban the spells, then even a fighter with cross class ranks in UMD can cast teleport. No one likes to talk about it, but the only thing that makes t1 & t2 tiers one two, are the spells. It has nothing to do with the chassis; or at least very little.

Yes. They don't need shenanigans, they just need their spell lists.

Part of the answer is deciding on a list of banned and nerfed spells.

Another part of the answer is deciding on some sort of mechanism to ensure that spells don't obsolete skills--obviously we're talking about spells-that-replace-Rogue-skills like Knock, but also spells like Fly that make Climb and Jump look pitiful.

[Kaveman26]

I have to say Kaveman, I'm surprised at this. From your campaign logs it seemed like your group had settled into their comfort zone and that you all were more than willing to accept restrictions in a very reasonable way. Couldn't you simply identify those spells you do want (d door for instance in the case of travel magic) and say the rest are off the table? I guess for the sake of your question maybe add passwall, polymorph to get movement (earth glide for example), disintegrate no longer works on objects but will effect creatures regardless of undead etc that would normally be immune after the nerf.

Yeah we have all been comfortable and I don't expect any pushback, that is by no means the issue. I am not concerned with them feeling stifled or inhibited at all. They will happily accept harsher restrictions as long as they know ahead of time. No flight and no res are common house rules for our peer group.

I am simply designing a story set that is more dungeon crawl centric and in need of some tighter restrictions, and I was looking for input on pitfalls to help avoid. I thought I had most of the worst offenders, but things polymorph to get earth glide I overlooked.


No, the problem are spells. If you dont ban the spells, then even a fighter with cross class ranks in UMD can cast teleport. No one likes to talk about it, but the only thing that makes t1 & t2 tiers one two, are the spells. It has nothing to do with the chassis; or at least very little.

Also this. Banning Classes all together doesn't eliminate things like Teleport or Stone Shape from the game. I don't want to reach that level of micro-management in game, so it is easier to remove them before we start and build a party knowing those parameters ahead of time.

If they derail the story or break the dungeon beyond repair using the other resources at their disposal then sweet...creativity is fantastic. I love getting surprised in ways I didn't expect. I am just interested in removing the completely unsurprising and lackluster methods.

For a bit more context this is still a few months away from happening and I am in the design stages of what I want to do, but at the core is a dungeon complex of an unsual design. For the context of this campaign the high magic and powerful items of a level 9+ campaign are more myth than anything. Anyone above level 7 at the onset of this adventure is a world shaker. Accessing this dungeon is changing that. It's almost like the E6 veil is being lifted as groups delve into this complex.

For my purposes the "dungeon" is more akin to a derelict vessel of staggering proportions and scope. The whole thing is rigged on a sort of automated control and for one hour every month the doors to the vessel open. So for any prospective adventuring group looking for untold wealth, power, knowledge etc they have a narrow window to get inside, then they have to survive for a full month inside before having a window to get out.

Rival groups will be found slaughtered, some will starve to death, some will establish base camps inside and some will have homebases outside. I want the 30 days inside to be a challenge, I don't want to see that twist or challenge hand waved away. Heck they won't even HAVE to enter the dungeon, as the outside will be a chaotic and thriving boom town.

[Brookshw]

So......Titan's pride?


I was looking for input on pitfalls to help avoid.

Safe resting places, lack of shopping, limited resource access beyond what they start with. Maybe have one non-hostile faction that the group can interact with to get new resources? That or you might have to pepper the thing with scrolls, potions, etc. Frankly your group impresses the heck out of me and you know the game well enough that I don't really know what I could offer. Ethereal and Shadow travel?

[Kaveman26]

Not quite Titan's Pride. I am thinking more of a Tippy inspired Illthid Mother Ship. From what I recall of Mind Flayer Lore, there was originally a home planet/plane of the Illithid that was strong enough to bring the Blood War to a halt. The dungeon would actually be a grown over husk of a Mother Ship, so all kinds of mystical and arcane knowledge or relics would abound inside. Certain self resetting traps or defenses would still be active and the final layer of the dungeon or ship would be the crew's central command center.

[Metahuman1]

I'd be leery of reducing Magic Item access, lots of the less powerful classes need those things just to funtion.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Allowing T1 and T2 casters when you're slashing magic item availability strikes me as a poor decision. If anything the reverse cuts down on shenannigans much more.

That said the worst game breakers are;
polymorph line summon monster line calling spells celerity line

After that there are spells that overwhelm skill use, like knock and company.

Finally, there's spells that some DM's simply don't like, such as fly and teleport.

[Kaveman26]

Magic items being scarce will impact some classes more than others, and the more prep work I go through the more I will address or compensate for those disparities.

I want to make them feel more valuable, but not to the exclusion of gimping characters. I would probable settle for eliminating "magic mart".

[Metahuman1]

In that case, suggestion. Introduce a third kind of reward.

They get experiance as normal, they get gold as normal, and then they get a third pool, which for our purposes will call "Improvement Points."

The way you calculate distributing them is quite simple, look at what they got for GP for the encounter, and give each of them an equivilant number of improvement points. They can use these Improvement points to buy personal flat upgrades. You know, the boring but necessary ones? Weapon Enchantments, Armor enchantments, Stat boosting Items, Save boosting Items, Skill boosting Items, AC Boosters, the stuff that is really dry on flavor but everyone wants and needs just to funtion?


See, that way, magic items can be much harder to come buy with out inherently gimping your players who don't go full caster, and you can fluff it as "there hero's, there just that amazing.".

Also, this means they have to find creative and not necessarily mechanically important things to spend there actual GP on since there's a whole lot less magic item shopping to do.

[Axinian]

An important question here is how much 3.5 stuff you're allowing. Is it on a case by case basis? Or can your players assume the use of all 3.5 stuff unless stated otherwise? If you stick with just Pathfinder mostly there's a lot less. Once you throw 3.5 in the mix there's a lot more stuff to go through.

A new spell to Pathfinder that can be really easily broken is Paragon Surge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/paragon-surge). A half-elf caster can get basically any spell they want with it, and it comes on line pretty early.

There aren't as many ways to outright break this, but the Create Pit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-pit) line of spells are extremely. It's essentially the hag in the well situation but they can summon a well whenever they want. Yeah monsters with flight or particularly high strength scores can get out, but you better make damn sure enemies have good ranks in climb early on. I could also imagine this being used to screw with the environment quite easily. You can do lots of this with extradimensional spaces.


Edit: That reminds me, things like Rope Trick and Magnificent Mansion could be clever solutions in this campaign, but more likely they'll just ruin the sense of danger and peril of the dungeon when they can rest in a guaranteed safe space.

[Kaveman26]

Thanks for lead on paragon surge.


Yeah rope trick and its ilk might have to join the list.

3.5 will be a case by case basis, and mostly class and some feats, not spells.