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DracoDei
2013-12-14, 04:36 PM
The request:



Spheniscine recommended me to you to be introduced to a table-top RPG. I am new to role-playing and am a furry looking for a place to express his "horror" side freely. Do you have an ideas?
I can probably help you to one extent or another.

There are "play by post" games on these boards.

The key to them working is that everybody keeps up with them regularly rather than treating them casually. In other words, check them at least once a day if there is even a small possibility you will be needed, and tell people if you are going to be unavailable and for how long. Truthfully, most games fall apart rather rapidly due to this, but I don't want to be bothered with you if YOU can't avoid being "the weak link".

Do you need to play as a furry? If so, tell me about your character. Species? Size? How animal like are their abilities? Can they see in very dim lighting? Is their sense of smell more like a dog's than a humans?

Are they heroic and powerful enough that you think they could work out in a fantasy adventure setting? If not, I can easily fix that.

Define "horror side" more please?
I apologize for not replying for I have been busy with work recently. I understand and would like to give it a try. This is a brief explanation of my character.

Species: Phantom (Spirit) Lion; Bipedal
Height: 6'
Abilities: Ghost Powers (Invisibility, Intangibility, Possession; short amount of time: 10-30 seconds), Moderate Enhanced Senses (dimlight some)
Alignment: Anti-hero (Good alignment, yet devious personality.)

*Ghost abilities consume energy. Purposely given short duration for balance.

I would be pleased with a darker tone with some gore. If the atmosphere is around a horror-type movie setting or contains such creatures, it would be perfect. :smallbiggrin:

The first round of questions
Do you need to float through the air, or is drifting/walking along the ground sufficient? In other words do you HAVE to fly while incorporeal?

Do you bite and/or claw?
ANSWERED!


The starting place. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4532654&postcount=7)
Silence's "Ghostfolk" entry in the "We the People" Monster Competition XXIII. I have sent him a private message telling him about this thread.

The product so far:
Ghost-lion Racial Traits (incorporeal(but see below))
* No strength score, as they are incorporeal.
* Incorporeal
* Humanoid
* Size: Medium
* Ghostlion land speed is 30ft. Ghostlions can not fly, and their own movement acts as if they had weight in all cases, including sinking/swimming in liquids and taking damage from falling. Despite this, they exert no pressure on solid objects. Thus they would not set off a pressure plate, can hang from the most frayed of ropes (or even a horizontal thread, although it would cut their paws badly), etc. Despite this, their interaction with creatures, is as per an incorporeal creature, and this overrides the previous rule, thus, for instance, they can not bull-rush or be bull-rushed by corporeal creatures, can move through enemies freely, and vice versa.
* Automatic Language: Common
* Favored Class: Sorcerer
* Level Adjustment: +2
Ghostlion Racial Traits (Corporeal)
* -4 strength, as they have a difficult time manipulating objects.
*-2 to attacks and any skill check involving manipulating objects other than you, such as swim, use rope, or climb.
* Natural Weapons: A ghost-lion has a primary bite attack dealing 1d6 plus strength modifier damage, and two secondary claw attacks, each dealing 1d4 plus one half of their strength modifier damage.
* Humanoid
* Size: Medium
* Ghostlion land speed is 30ft.
* Automatic Language: Common
* Favored Class: Sorcerer
* Level Adjustment: +2
* Deflection bonus to their AC equal to their wisdom modifier
* +4 to all hide and move silently checks due to their semi-corporeality.
* (ex.) Incorporeal shifting: Ghostlions can shift closer to the material plane, and back into their own through will. It takes 10 minutes of concentration, during which they can be preforming no other actions, and if interrupted, they must succeed in a concentration check (15+damage dealt, or 15 if no damage was dealt) to ignore the interruption and continue. When in their own realm, they are considered incorporeal, but when back in the material realm, they become corporeal, mostly. When they shift, they can bring up to 10 pounds of objects with them, and they also become incorporeal, and when they shift back, so do the objects.


Age, Height, and Weight
Adulthood: 40 years
Simple Classes: +1d8
Moderate Classes: +2d12
Complex Classes: +4d12

Height: (6'0" in this case)
Weight: 115 + 3d6(lbs)

Middle Age: 100
Old Age: 150
Venerable: 200
Maximum Age: +10d6


Ghost-lion feats

Fast shifting
Some Ghost-lion have practiced shifting to the point that they can speed up the process, making it faster and easier.
Prerequisites: Improved shifting.
Effect: The amount of time that it takes you to shift is cut to one minute.

Fast shifting (improved)
Some Ghost-lion have practiced shifting to the point that they can speed up the process, making it faster and easier.
Prerequisites: Improved shifting. Fast shifting. HD 3 or over.
Effect: The amount of time that it takes you to shift is cut to one full round action (or complex action, for those Frenchies out there [inside joke; move along, this isn't the sentence you're looking for]).

Fast shifting (Greater)
Some Ghost-lion have practiced shifting to the point that they can speed up the process, making it faster and easier.
Prerequisites: Improved shifting. Fast shifting (improved). HD 7 or over.
Effect: The amount of time that it takes you to shift is cut to one standard action.

Improved item carrying
Some Ghost-lion have practiced shifting to the point that they can carry more items with them when they shift.
Prerequisites: Improved shifting.
Effect: You can carry 2 times as much weight in items as you normally could.
Special:This feat can be taken multiple times, up to three.. You round up to the nearest whole number. The first time you take it, the the limit is increased to 20, then to 40.

Improved shifting
Some Ghost-lion have practiced shifting to the point that they can manifest themselves better on the material plane..
Prerequisites: Incorpreal shifting.
Effect: Your racial -2 to attacks and skills involving manipulating objects other than you is void. That effect is removed.


Creature shifting
Through the mastery of the magical forces that comprise you, you have found a way to shift creatures.
Prerequisites: Improved shifting and improved item carrying.
Effect: You can bring one creature with you when you shift up to a total HD equal to your own. These creatures must be willing. When you shift with a creature, each HD it has adds one minute to the amount of time it takes to shift. When you shift back, so does the creature.
Special: If you have Fast Shifting, the extra time is cut to one round per HD. If you have Fast Shifting (improved), it is cut to an extra full round action, regardless of the HD. If you have Fast Shifting (Greater), the total time it takes you to shift becomes one full round action, regardless of HD.



Ghostfolk/Ghost-lion items

Ectoplasm
Ectoplasm is created by random residue of spells, and regularly pops up on the Ghostfolk's demiplane.

To find ectoplasm you have to search the plane. For a 24 hour search, roll one search check. Take the result, and subtract 25. Take half that number (rounding down), and if, positive, is how many units of ectoplasm you've found.

Ectoplasm behaves like water, except that each clump it tied to itself, and draws towards its counterparts.

A clump of ectoplasm is about the same size as your fist, and can't be seen or sensed by anyone except a Ghost-lion/Ghostfolk, or someone that a Ghostfolk/Ghost-lion has shifted. It looks like mist.

Many Ghostfolk/Ghost-lion items are made out of ectoplasm. They are as follows:


Ring of shifting
This ring allows those not able to shift between planes to do so like a Ghostfolk/Ghost-lion twice a day.

Faint enchantment; CL 8th; Forge Ring, creator must be Ghostfolk, Dimension Door; Price 10,500 gp. 500 units of ectoplasm needed. Consumed when made.



Ring of improved shifting
This ring only effects Ghostfolk/Ghost-lion, or those wearing a ring of shifting. It improved shifting, as a feat, to it's wearer.

Faint enchantment; CL 7th; Forge Ring, creator must be Ghostfolk/Ghost-lion, Dimension Door; Price 4,000 gp. 200 units of ectoplasm needed. Consumed when made.





Ring of fast shifting
This ring only effects Ghostfolk/Ghost-lion, or those wearing a ring of shifting. It grants fast shifting to it's wearer. If the wearer already has that feat, then it grants fast shifting (improved), and if they already have that one, then it grants fast shifting (greater). If they already have fast shifting (greater), then this ring has no effect.

Faint enchantment; CL 7th; Forge Ring, creator must be Ghostfolk or Ghost-lion, Dimension Door; Price 4,000 gp. 200 units of ectoplasm needed. Consumed when made.




Ring of shifting carrying
This ring only effects Ghostfolk and Ghost-lions, or those wearing a ring of shifting. It grants improved item carrying as a feat, and if the wearer already has that feat, it grants improved creature carrying. If they already have that feat, then it has no effect.

Faint enchantment; CL 7th; Forge Ring, creator must be Ghostfolk or Ghost-lion, Dimension Door; Price 4,000 gp. 200 units of ectoplasm needed. Consumed when made.


Knowledge check
DC 15 arcana or planes
You know that this creature is a Ghost-lion. They are connected to both the material plane, and another that runs adjacent to it.

DC 20 arcana or planes
You know that this creature is a Ghost-lion. They have the ability to shift between the material plane and another, effectively making him incorpreal.

DC 30 arcana or planes
You know this creature is a Ghost-lion. You also recall their history, and how they were created, and all other aspects about them.

TheFamilarRaven
2013-12-16, 04:51 PM
Ok, I won't pretend to be an expert on ghost/ghost-like creatures, but I do have a few comments/question that hopefully will help.

First thing I would recommend is reading the Ghost template, seeing how the mechanics of ghosts work, and then continue from there, if you havn't already.



Some of the "physics" (and by physics I mean DnD physics of course) don't make sense to me. It seems like an effort to balance the incorporeality, which is good, but it feels awkward to me.

For instance, you can not be incorporeal and drown, but NOT be able to trigger pressure plates. In fact, you can not manipulate the material plane at all except through spells, special attacks and magic items.

Also, you mention that the can "shift closer to the material plane, and back again to their own plane at will". does that mean that these creatures do not have an origin on the ethereal plane? If so, the campaign setting would need to specifically state that all planes intersect each other, because as it stands, only the ethereal (plus some others) intertwine with the material plane.

In regards to your first round of questions to being incorporeal, i do not believe it forces the base creature to only have a fly speed. However, ghosts, as written in the MM1, have a fly speed of 30ft (perfect), meaning (as I am interpreting it) that the fly speed replaces any other speed, (unless they base creature has a fly speed already yadayadayada). And that was from the template rules, not just looking over the example. Also, the spell Ethereal Jaunt mentions that the targets can move any direction, albeit at half speed.

I guess, my question is, how high of an LA are you willing to go to make this creature (once again I won't pretend to be an expert by just as a guideline).

My recommendation is to make the ghost-lion ether a corporeal creature, with the daily abilty to become incorporeal (and therfore gain addition abilties), temporarily, or vice versa.

Hope this helps, if I said anything to seem rude just slap me across the face.

EDIT: Also, for the ring, the 200 units of ectoplasm are covered by the 4,000gp cost. I think better wording, (if you really wanted to add the ectoplasm part for flavoring) would be 4,000gp worth of ectoplasm, (200 units)

DracoDei
2013-12-16, 06:18 PM
Ok, I won't pretend to be an expert on ghost/ghost-like creatures, but I do have a few comments/question that hopefully will help.
Thank you very much. I was mostly waiting on Seijin to answer my first round of questions before I went beyond this VERY rough draft.

First thing I would recommend is reading the Ghost template, seeing how the mechanics of ghosts work, and then continue from there, if you haven't already.
I probably should go back and do that, but I was hoping that the work done by Silence for the competition entry I used as my starting point would be good enough that I could not worry about that. I suppose I could do worse than to reread the voting thread for that specific contest, and, more importantly, the appropriate part of the discussion thread(s) for that series of contests to see what other people had to say about his original work... in addition to your very valuable input.

Seijin does want some ghostly abilities(Invisibility, Intangibility, Possession), but to keep the LA down, I was going to do the Invisibility and Possession via levels of sorcerer. I think actually have a good idea for how to turn the Possession thing into a series of spells that can run from 1st spell level all the way to 9th if necessary. Invisibility would just be Invisibility and Improved Invisibility.


Some of the "physics" (and by physics I mean DnD physics of course) don't make sense to me. It seems like an effort to balance the incorporeality, which is good, but it feels awkward to me.
Part of that was Silence trying to fix that problem, and part of it was mine when I removed the flying to further nerf it.

Unless Silence's work turns out to have been overpowered, it should actually be LA +1 at this point I think. I removed +2 bonuses to Intelligence and wisdom, plus the flight.



For instance, you can not be incorporeal and drown, but NOT be able to trigger pressure plates. In fact, you can not manipulate the material plane at all except through spells, special attacks and magic items.
Good point. I was trying to get rid of the flying, and that was the result. However, as you note below, they aren't EXACTLY Ethereal (which was part of Silence's innovation).

I'll see what I can come up with to improve the feel and function of their physics. In theory, "You interact as per real world physics with solids and liquids, and solids impose forces on you without you imposing an equal but opposite force on them." seems to me to not be completely unworkable for fantasy physics.


Also, you mention that the can "shift closer to the material plane, and back again to their own plane at will". does that mean that these creatures do not have an origin on the ethereal plane?
Correct. Again, that was part of Silence's innovation. It could, perhaps, be altered. I forget why he did that. Perhaps to give them a more "lonely" feel, or perhaps it was to prevent them from being overpowered against ethereal foes.

If so, the campaign setting would need to specifically state that all planes intersect each other, because as it stands, only the ethereal (plus some others) intertwine with the material plane.
Many homebrewed races, spells, and items make tiny tweaks to the cosmology of any campaign they are inserted in. I am not 100% sure if this is a "tiny" tweak now that you mention it.


In regards to your first round of questions
My apologies. Those questions were intended for Seijin, not the playground in general.

to being incorporeal, i do not believe it forces the base creature to only have a fly speed. However, ghosts, as written in the MM1, have a fly speed of 30ft (perfect), meaning (as I am interpreting it) that the fly speed replaces any other speed, (unless they base creature has a fly speed already yadayadayada). And that was from the template rules, not just looking over the example. Also, the spell Ethereal Jaunt mentions that the targets can move any direction, albeit at half speed.

I guess, my question is, how high of an LA are you willing to go to make this creature (once again I won't pretend to be an expert by just as a guideline).
Short answer:
I'd like to keep to the currently listed +2 or lower.

Reasoning:
The contest this is from was called "We the People" (it was part of Vorpal Tribble's series of Monster Creation Contests). The goal was to design a player-character race. Part of that was a +2 ceiling on LA. I trust Vorpal Tribble's judgement on that being the ceiling on easily playable races.


My recommendation is to make the ghost-lion ether a corporeal creature, with the daily ability to become incorporeal (and therfore gain addition abilties), temporarily, or vice versa.
I think the 10 minute transition time and 10 pound limit on equipment were the controls that were intended to keep that under control. I could replace the transition time with a daily limit, but I'd have to be convinced.



Hope this helps, if I said anything to seem rude just slap me across the face.
Not at all. I wasn't expecting feedback from The Playground yet(W.I.P tag instead of P.E.A.C.H.), so I am not surprised that when it arrived there were some confusions and that you didn't think much of my very rough work in adapting a very daring concept.



EDIT: Also, for the ring, the 200 units of ectoplasm are covered by the 4,000gp cost. I think better wording, (if you really wanted to add the ectoplasm part for flavoring) would be 4,000gp worth of ectoplasm, (200 units)
Sure, I can edit that in at some point.

For now though, I really should get back to working on my career development.

Seijin
2013-12-18, 04:24 AM
Do you need to float through the air, or is drifting/walking along the ground sufficient? In other words do you HAVE to fly while incorporeal?
It is not necessary for my character to fly. Drifting/ walking would work.


Do you bite and/or claw?
I would prefer if he did both as the default method of attacking.

DracoDei
2013-12-20, 01:18 AM
This post will mostly be me bringing up some stuff that might be relevant, but perhaps mostly to myself.

Ok, from the voting thread for the Ghostfolk:

A tough competition, I was torn between ghost folk and Gridolls, the frogmen.
(Some random voter)

That was, I think, the only vote it got (But there weren't that many people voting... maybe less than 10).

It DID however get the "Vorpal Tribble's favorite" award, so there is that in favor of it being balanced and such. Then again, PC races might not have been VT's forte.


From the discussion thread startingHERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26636&page=29):
(Can't quote because thread locked)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4532896&postcount=859
Other than that, the feats:

Quote:
Fast shifting
Make it two feats: One for a 1 minute shifting, secong for complex action shifting.

Quote:
Improved item carrying
More items, no shifting time extension.

Quote:
Improved shifting
Okay.

Quote:
Creature shifting
I'm intigued. This could be extremely powerful when you bring other casters with you.

EDIT: Happy Independence Day everyone!
-----
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4532915&postcount=860
OK, I'll mess with them in those ways. Two things,
1.) What do you mean by "Complex action shifting"
2.) With the creature shifting, you can only bring one creature with an HD up to your own, so it's not going to be overpowered.



I'll add in some more skills and whatnot to spice it up.

Thanks for the advice!
-----
Guyr Adamantine:"Sorry, I just remembered "full-round actions" are called "complex actions" in french, and I got mixed up.

Characters in your team will have similar Hit Dice to you."
-----
Silence:"Ah, ok, good idea. I'll throw in a prerequisite or two for the second feat.

And, yes, I know that people on your team will probably have the same HD as you. I intended it that way."
-----
((And onward from there... don't feel like copying a bunch of stuff over right now, but I don't want to lose my notification to myself and everybody of where in the multiple commentary threads to find the discussion for the Ghostfolk))

Seijin
2013-12-25, 12:07 PM
I like everything so far. You sure put a lot of work into it! Thank you very much! :smallbiggrin:

DracoDei
2013-12-25, 09:53 PM
Well, I did modify it from Silence's work.

Well, if you really want to you could try using it as-is. You would need to find a game, probably HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=51), and then I could help you actually make your character (rather than just the race). The "sticky" threads at the top may or may not be useful to you. We can't really create the character until we know what the starting level and means of determining ability scores is. You would want any 3.0 or 3.5 game (if they don't specify, then ask, but if it is D&D, then it is probably one of those).

In such a case, I should probably create the spells that would simulate your possession abilities. The class you would want would be Sorcerer.

The reason I'm presenting this option to you before creating the spells is that I don't actually recommend it. Incorporeality is pretty hard to GM for, and many GMs are wary of "Homebrew" anyway. Plus you would have an especially large amount to learn about playing the game if you used this character for your first campaign.

What I would ACTUALLY recommend is that you work with me to figure out a much more normal sort of character (not necessarily completely normal), and then I would start my own campaign and you could get used to keeping up with posting in the thread, and the basic rules of the game and such.

Incidentally, while it is much better for looking stuff up than actually learning the game from scratch, I strongly recommend www.d20srd.org as a reference source.