Totemist... I am in love

[GhengisConrad]

I"M IN LOVE I"M IN LOVE I"M IN LOVE!!!

Totemist is... just... WOW!!! This is exactly what I have been looking for in character development! I've been a long time '3.0' player, and just got back into the game after 10 long years... and wow... this totemist thing... Soul melds are fricking AWESOME!

So... what's the catch? I mean, I know they aren't that powerful... but really they are! So versatile!

Now I can ShadowLord (if I even want to anymore!) with ANY build! Giant, Monstrous, Fey, Outsider... doesn't fricken' matter! Blink Shirt, AS THE SPELL DIMENSION DOOR!!!! Holy Hayzeus!

Am I MISSING something?! Is this some kind of a banned book? Before I fall more in love, someone please tell me, am I dreaming?

[Big Fau]

You may wish to do some digging. There's no less than 3 handbooks about the class, and 1 or 2 quickstart guides.

Simply put: The class is incredibly flexible for someone who isn't a true spellcaster, but it has some strong limitations on it that prevent it from excelling past the mid-Tier 3 mark.

It is quite good though, and being in the middle of Tier 3/top of Tier 4 isn't necessarily a bad place to be, but it is incredibly tedious to learn how to use Incarnum in general.

[Metahuman1]

The catch is that Incarnum's a hard sub system to learn. And have to choose between soul melds and magic Items sometimes.

[GhengisConrad]

I just... it opens so many doors! I don't have to fret about wings... or natural armor... or natural attacks... or even bloody dim.door/shad.jump!

its practically renders dragon disciple useless... I think... I'm not sure! So much comparitive math!

I don't know who came up with it. But it seems designed to boil almost exactly what I LOVE about dnd! Comparing relative numerical bonuses while also mixing and matching aspects of various things into a muddle mutt of uniqueness!

It's so much! It's like discovering the game all over again for me!


HUZZAH HURRAY!

[Big Fau]

its practically renders dragon disciple useless... I think... I'm not sure! So much comparitive math!

That's not exactly a tall hurdle to clear...

By chance, have you looked into the Druid's Wildshape at all?

[Metahuman1]

You know what would be fun for you? Go get Tome of Battle: Book Of Nine Swords and Tome Of Magic. Read Tome Of Battle. Read the Binder section on Tome of Magic.

Then go to the SRD and read the Gestalt alternative rules.

[eggynack]

Well, glad you're enjoying the system. It's not really as mind blowingly powerful and ridiculous as you're implying, but with its tier three status it's pretty much never going to be cast aside for something that lacks casting. Rendering dragon disciple useless has never been all that hard though. I mean, looking at dragon disciple from the perspective of someone trying to obsolete a class, a druid can pretty much get all of those abilities down to the letter. The breath weapon isn't really available natively, but seriously? Once per day? Why is the breath weapon once per day? Why does it look like they never ever increase that? That's just stupid. So, yeah. You don't really have to leave core to obsolete a dragon disciple.

[gorfnab]

Totemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287304) Handbooks (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=583)

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's a great face-ripper and a decent scout but all in all not the most overwhelming class in the game.

I like it well enough but I'd just as soon roll with any of the martial adepts (the classes in Tome of Battle) or even a skillfully done fighter. Incidentally, meldshaping and martial maneuvers (martial adepts' new mechanic) blend very nicely.

[Waker]

Excellent, another convert to the ways of Incarnum.
The Totemist is a rather fun class. Others have pointed out that it isn't super powerful, but still flexible enough that you can do quite a bit. That being said, Incarnum is a tricky system to learn, mostly due to lazy editing of the book. You'll want to read some of the various handbooks that consolidate all the information that you need.
The other potential hurdle is that the book is relatively obscure compared to the other 3.5 books and because some DMs don't want to learn a new system, they may ban the book out of hand.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Ya know, I've read a hundred times that incarnum is tricky but I got it clearly on my first read through. Sure it's kinda fiddley but it's not that complicated.

Can someone please tell me what it is that confuses so many people?

[OldTrees1]

Ya know, I've read a hundred times that incarnum is tricky but I got it clearly on my first read through. Sure it's kinda fiddley but it's not that complicated.

Can someone please tell me what it is that confuses so many people?

Something can be complicated yet instantly intuitively understood. This is especially true for people that are generally good at understanding what they read.

The things about Incarnum that can be confusing/missed:
1) Chakra Bind - Magic Item incompatibility.
2) Soulmelds being limited to 10-Con/Wis score.
3) The action required to reassign essentia.
4) Essentia limit per container
5) Incarnate alignment (Neutral Exalted, Archaic Neutral, Neutral Vile, or Axiomatic Neutral)

[Waddacku]

Is an Archaic Neutral character one whose ethics forbid them from using anything new, without any regard as to the morality of the new action or object?

[Waker]

The system itself isn't that hard, it's the placement of information.
Where is the information on Essentia Capacity? Is it on pg 4 where it details the game terms and how Incarnum functions? Is it perhaps in the portion of the book dealing with soulmelds? No, it's instead in the opening page of the new classes introduced in the book. Which doesn't make sense since characters can have essentia without using those classes (Race, feats). Not to mention that capacity is based on character level, not class level.
There are a few other examples here and there, but that is one of the more annoying examples.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Something can be complicated yet instantly intuitively understood. This is especially true for people that are generally good at understanding what they read.

The things about Incarnum that can be confusing/missed:
1) Chakra Bind - Magic Item incompatibility.
2) Soulmelds being limited to 10-Con/Wis score.
3) The action required to reassign essentia.
4) Essentia limit per container
5) Incarnate alignment (Neutral Exalted, Archaic Neutral, Neutral Vile, or Axiomatic Neutral)

okay. I can kinda see the first four but that fifth one is no different from a druid except that true neutral isn't an option. The second one strikes me as kinda dodgy from the confusion angle too. I guess it could be accidentally overlooked.

[OldTrees1]

Is an Archaic Neutral character one whose ethics forbid them from using anything new, without any regard as to the morality of the new action or object?

*anarchic


The system itself isn't that hard, it's the placement of information.
Where is the information on Essentia Capacity? Is it on pg 4 where it details the game terms and how Incarnum functions? Is it perhaps in the portion of the book dealing with soulmelds? No, it's instead in the opening page of the new classes introduced in the book. Which doesn't make sense since characters can have essentia without using those classes (Race, feats). Not to mention that capacity is based on character level, not class level.
There are a few other examples here and there, but that is one of the more annoying examples.

Yeah. I used to waste an hour trying to find that section to double check my memory.


okay. I can kinda see the first four but that fifth one is no different from a druid except that true neutral isn't an option. The second one strikes me as kinda dodgy from the confusion angle too. I guess it could be accidentally overlooked.

Druid uses a normal alignment. Incarnate's fluff (made mechanic through alignment restriction) does not use a normal alignment like Neutral Good. Rather it says the Incarnates are at the extremes of those alignment.

The second one is easy to overlook for dips/Shape Soulmeld feat (or first time undead meldshapers).

These several things make Incarnum complex/complicated. (To some that is confusing, to system mastery folks it is merely scattered and complex/complicated)

[Waker]

These several things make Incarnum complex/complicated. (To some that is confusing, to system mastery folks it is merely scattered and complex/complicated)
Then you've got other goofy factors that aren't consistent. Any racial, class ability or soulmeld that makes use of essentia can have points shifted into it as a swift action. Feats however lock essentia into place for 24 hours.
Some soulmelds block the placement of mundane items even if they aren't bound to a chakra, while some do not.

I love the system, but they could have used a few more days editing things and going over the small details.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Then you've got other goofy factors that aren't consistent. Any racial, class ability or soulmeld that makes use of essentia can have points shifted into it as a swift action. Feats however lock essentia into place for 24 hours.
Some soulmelds block the placement of mundane items even if they aren't bound to a chakra, while some do not.

I love the system, but they could have used a few more days editing things and going over the small details.

I'll grant you I'm going from memory, but I'm pretty sure the underlined is untrue and each of the feats specifically calls out the fact that essentia gets locked into them rather than that being placed only in the header for incarnum feats.

@old trees;

The fluff about incarnate alignment is just that. It has no bearing on mechanics at all. Incarnate alignment is LN, NG, CN, OR NE. Anything beyond that is the DM imposing his own view of the fluff on the game and is not a fault in the mechanics.

[MeeposFire]

The system itself isn't that hard, it's the placement of information.
Where is the information on Essentia Capacity? Is it on pg 4 where it details the game terms and how Incarnum functions? Is it perhaps in the portion of the book dealing with soulmelds? No, it's instead in the opening page of the new classes introduced in the book. Which doesn't make sense since characters can have essentia without using those classes (Race, feats). Not to mention that capacity is based on character level, not class level.
There are a few other examples here and there, but that is one of the more annoying examples.

You think that is strange look at the rate for capacity. It makes no sense. It could have been a nice easy progression of 1 every 4 or 5 levels but instead you have a progression that does not yield a standard pattern.

Once again not hard but it could have been made more intuitive if you just made a standard pattern.

[Venger]

okay. I can kinda see the first four but that fifth one is no different from a druid except that true neutral isn't an option. The second one strikes me as kinda dodgy from the confusion angle too. I guess it could be accidentally overlooked.

In addition to what other people mentioned, the incarnum system is more difficult to learn than other variant casting mechanics largely due to formatting.

Let's say I want to play a totemist. Okay, cool. I go to p 19, which is where the essentia caps are hidden away, I make sure not to have too low a con, wherever exactly that specific rule is tucked away. (wis has no relevance to how many melds you can have shaped, it's only used for incarnates calculating their save DCs)

now what?

well, it's time to look at my melds!

so I go to page 58, where they list the totemist melds, but what's this, the actual meld descriptions started earlier than this? four pages earlier? well then I'd better go up and make sure I'm not missing anything in the As (I'm not, except the ankheg breastplate for when I want some AC.)

but that's immaterial. how are my melds organized on this handydandy chart?

they're broken up by chakra in the order of when I unlock the binds. giggity. what information do I get about them?

well, I (kind of) get the shaped effect sometimes. do they tell me what type the bonus is so I can know whether it stacks with another meld that gives a bonus to the same thing? nope!

all right. can't win 'em all. I assume it at least mentions the essentia effect.

no, not that either? all right, how about the bind?

I see. what's this? it appears that dread carapace and a handful of my other melds can be shaped and bound in several different locations. that's certainly handy (or footy as the case may be.) I assume that these versatile melds are indicated with an asterisk or some other such marking.

Ok. Well, that's fine! it's not like spells have full information in their little menu before the rules text proper, and there are some errors and omissions there too. no big deal. let's just dive in and go to the totemist meld list.

odd, there doesn't seem to be one here. they're all jumbled together with incarnate and soulborn's melds. okay, well, let me just flip to the end, maybe totemists' melds are all at the end like with the charts.

the melds are just all arranged alphabetically?

http://christianheilmann.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/sobbing-mathematically.jpg

so if I want to learn about totemist firsthand (not that the handbooks aren't great, of course) then I'll need to just awkwardly go all over the place in this book because there isn't a good consolidated place where I can check the information that I need. this is in tandem with someone still learning the basics of meldshaping (which, as you said, aren't hard, it's just that the fundamentals are scattered all over the place since wotc had officially stopped caring by the time moi was out)

[Waker]

I'll grant you I'm going from memory, but I'm pretty sure the underlined is untrue and each of the feats specifically calls out the fact that essentia gets locked into them rather than that being placed only in the header for incarnum feats.
The item issue you are correct on, I was misremembering a conversation I had with Psyren.
The feats do specifically call out in the description that they lock the essentia. That however wasn't my point. My point was that someone who picks up the system for the first time can see that everything else that uses essentia follows the same rules about moving points around, except for the feats. Those lock your points into place for some reason.

[Vaz]

Just like to point out that the Blink Shirt's Dimension Door isn't a Spell-like Ability, so by RAW it does not explicitly qualify as a Shadowlord, and may require access into the class by other means.

However, as it is the DDoor ability, you can still Shadow Pounce off of it; you can't just can't qualify with it.

[danzibr]

I love Totemist, too, despite their shortcomings. Or perhaps I embrace its shortcomings, as true love. [/cheese]

Anyway, while Totemist can do numerous things, they can't do them all at once. You're pretty much going to fit one niche at a time. They're flexible in the sense that Totemists can be built to do a fair number of things (mostly melee combat and ranged combat, but they can also make decent sneaks and excellent grapplers), but no build will be able to do all of that, unlike a Wizard. Also, Totemists tend to be rather feat-starved.

[Red Fel]

Bottom line, OP:

1. Totemists are an excellent and exciting way to do unarmed/natural weapons combat.

2. Totemists, and soulmelds in general, offer great variety and a new mechanical system that's extremely versatile, and complements many character builds either as a dip or as a main ingredient.

3. Totemists in particular can tailor their powers to any given situation on a day-to-day basis, much like a Wizard preparing spells, only for a more melee concept. In this way they're very similar to ToB classes. Unlike ToB classes, however, Totemist powers (and soulmeld-users in general) are more explicitly supernatural in nature, offering an incredible array of out-of-combat utilities as well as in-combat ones.

But...

1. MoI is hideously organized, with vital instructions being scattered piecemeal throughout the book. The instructions themselves are a bit disorienting and the mechanics (wait, I have this much essentia, but this much essentia capacity, but this Con modifier? What?) are confusing.

2. The Incarnum Feats seem almost self-destructively bad, despite seeming to blend so nicely with other classes.

3. Totemist itself is very feat-dependent.

4. Despite their versatility and the fact that they can start out incredibly strong, soulmeld-users don't tend to scale as effectively as their more explicitly magical counterparts (although this is a lament shared by most melees). Additionally, the exclusion of magic items (unless you use feats) forces soulmeld-users to make difficult and potentially crippling choices.

I tend to love Totemists or Incarnates as a dip. (Soulborn are rubbish.) But even though I've had the book for years and read it many, many times, I still get things wrong, and I still feel uncomfortable taking too many levels in these classes, simply because of how turned around I get.

[GhengisConrad]

Just like to point out that the Blink Shirt's Dimension Door isn't a Spell-like Ability, so by RAW it does not explicitly qualify as a Shadowlord, and may require access into the class by other means.

However, as it is the DDoor ability, you can still Shadow Pounce off of it; you can't just can't qualify with it.

You are right, and serving my master, the RAW..... but now I am sad.... RAI seems pretty clear... but RAI is blasphemy to the RAW gods...

I don't think its common interpretation that the Souldmeld-Magic Transparancy counters that fact... does it?....

[Eldonauran]

I love the Incarnum system. Between it, psionics and martial Manuevers, I can happily ignore arcane and divine spellcasting while contributing and feeling good while doing so.

There are so many things you can do.

I did have a little trouble with the system when I first read it, simply because it was so different than I was used to before. Mainly, it was intuitive but I kept second guessing myself.

I actually wish there was a race that got an essentia pool and power points, so that I could mix Soulknife and Incarnum together. (not interested in homebrew though. I know there are some good ones out there)

[Greenish]

I actually wish there was a race that got an essentia pool and power points, so that I could mix Soulknife and Incarnum together. (not interested in homebrew though. I know there are some good ones out there)Azurin gets an extra feat: take Wild Talent. :smalltongue:

[Eldonauran]

Azurin gets an extra feat: take Wild Talent. :smalltongue:

Heh. :smallamused:

That's too easy.

Obvious answer is obvious... Why didn't I think of that?

[The Viscount]

I actually wish there was a race that got an essentia pool and power points, so that I could mix Soulknife and Incarnum together. (not interested in homebrew though. I know there are some good ones out there)

There's always the utter hilarity of soul manifester (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a). It's bind advancement is slower than normal, but it's almost worth it to use psionic distillation on azure talent to get free pp. Because the essentia invested vanish, I'm not sure how this would interact with the locking in 1/day restriction on Incarnum feats, but at worst it's a very amusing nova.

[OldTrees1]

(wis has no relevance to how many melds you can have shaped, it's only used for incarnates calculating their save DCs)


Unless you are undead.

[Greenish]

Heh. :smallamused:

That's too easy.

Obvious answer is obvious... Why didn't I think of that?Though I note you don't need power points to enter soulknife (or to do most anything with it), and it actually gives you Wild Talent for free at 1st level.

[Stegyre]

Though I note you don't need power points to enter soulknife (or to do most anything with it), and it actually gives you Wild Talent for free at 1st level.
Ugh! If you're going to take even one level of soul knife, at least invoke the minds eye variant allowing you to replace Wild Talent with the strictly better Hidden Talent.

[Eldonauran]

Ugh! If you're going to take even one level of soul knife, at least invoke the minds eye variant allowing you to replace Wild Talent with the strictly better Hidden Talent.

I don't want to hi-jack the thread too much with the Soulknife talk ... But does anyone know a weapon, or weapon ability that allows you to "channel" the mind blade through it? In other words, a weapon that you can imbue with your mind blade, something that has a permanent physical presence?



Ugh! If you're going to take even one level of soul knife, at least invoke the minds eye variant allowing you to replace Wild Talent with the strictly better Hidden Talent.

Curses! Stupid, 1st level only requirement! That would have been perfect!

[Elderand]

I don't want to hi-jack the thread too much with the Soulknife talk ... But does anyone know a weapon, or weapon ability that allows you to "channel" the mind blade through it? In other words, a weapon that you can imbue with your mind blade, something that has a permanent physical presence?

I know it exist for the pathfinder version but I don't know about the 3.5 version

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't want to hi-jack the thread too much with the Soulknife talk ... But does anyone know a weapon, or weapon ability that allows you to "channel" the mind blade through it? In other words, a weapon that you can imbue with your mind blade, something that has a permanent physical presence?

Only thing that comes to mind is the legacy weapon Mau-Jehe.

[Stegyre]

Curses! Stupid, 1st level only requirement! That would have been perfect!
Minds eye waives that for soul knife. I'll paste the link if you don't already have it. It actually permits SKs to take Hidden Talent any time they take a feat, perhaps the nicest benefit of an otherwise decidedly sub-par class.

Edit: Minds Eye link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214)

[Venger]

Unless you are undead.

Undead meldshaper is a trap. all the other incarnum feats require con score, so you're sort of shooting yourself in the foot.

[OldTrees1]

Undead meldshaper is a trap. all the other incarnum feats require con score, so you're sort of shooting yourself in the foot.

I had an E6 Gestalt Dark Ghost that needed constant concealment to enable Hide In Plain Sight.

Fellmist Robe enabled the idea. Hence Undead Meldshaper. I do miss the +1 essentia possible by taking Midnight Dodge instead of Dodge, but in general Undead Meldshaper filled a need I had.