Haley's Arm [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Onyavar

2013-12-15, 07:48 PM

What surprised me more is that this Tarquin could do this. It reminds me of Complains (from Goblins) who also broke his arms and his party couldn't heal it because they don't have access to regeneration yet.

Aside from Redcloak/O-Chul this is the first time I notice that characters get impaired instead of "just" damaged. I mean, Tarquin could have severed Elans intestines when he ran his sword through him - but THIS is just damage. What are the rules for targeting+damaging specific body parts?

Ionathus

2013-12-15, 07:58 PM

What are the rules for targeting+damaging specific body parts?

You need a long-range weapon and some sort of V.A.T.S. hardware (http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070704223218/fallout/images/b/b7/VATS.jpg). A high Agility score would be a plus as well.

RustyVenture

2013-12-15, 08:09 PM

gorocz

2013-12-15, 08:28 PM

What if Haley removed Tarquin's ring of regeneration at the time he broke her arm? If you look at that panel, her hand is on his hand right before the arm break. She does know about the ring because "Thog" told her so (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0852.html). In that case, she could have put it on and won't have a broken arm for too much longer. Slim chances of this happening, to be sure. I wonder if it's even possible under D&D mechanics.

Not sure about the actual rules (or whether there are any), but I'd say that you can't heal actual injuries (i.e. not just hp damage, ability damage or magical effects) without some stronger spell. Just restoring yourself to full hp shouldn't actually heal a broken arm, just as it doesn't heal Redcloak's eye. If I were a DM, I'd say Heal spell (it's the only one I found that actually mentions injuries) would work, or if the DM was feeling generous, even a Restoration spell (which is for all ability damage), but since it's Giant's call, I don't think the arm will be healed before the fight ends, possibly only after Durkon regains his spells...

Kish

2013-12-15, 08:28 PM

gorocz

2013-12-15, 08:57 PM

Technically speaking, it's not possible to break an arm under D&D mechanics. So I would suggest not stressing overmuch about whether something that a character logically could do is covered in the D&D rules, because Rich sure isn't.

...Actual injuries? So that sword through Roy's chest was unactual? Yikes.

Come on, no need to be snarky...

Firstly, I did say that I wasn't talking about actual rules, but what I would do as a DM and then what I think Rich might do in this case - based on what direction I think the fight is going. Haley lost the use of one of her arms, which removes her out of this fight (at least her archery ability, which could come quite handy). Yes, I know it's possible that this whole breaking an arm thing was just to enable her to steal Tarquin's ring and then display that fact by her having her arm healed, but it didn't seem likely to me story-wise in the first place, so I presumed the other option - her arm was broken to actually remove her from the fight. Also, you'd have to be one hell of a rogue/thief, to get a "theft of opportunity" to steal a ring, when someone grabs your arm (with both hand, so even the one the ring's on) and breaks it. :smalltongue: I know there's more people that think this happens, I'm just not one of them. I'm not backing this claim with any rules, I just think it's unlikely to be the case.

Secondly, what I meant by "injury" was a term opposed to "wound" (and I borrowed terminology, to which I was familiar from computer games, not an actual D&D term. The fact that it's used in Heal description is just a lucky coincidence). I meant something that's not just hp damage, something that somehow affects your combat capabilities (e.g. you have a broken arm - you can't shoot a bow) and isn't represented by hp damage or ability damage (she might have DEX damage as a result of the broken arm, but lowering your DEX makes you shoot a bow less precisely, it doesn't prevent you to shoot the bow in general).

Rakoa

2013-12-15, 09:04 PM

Come on, no need to be snarky...

I believe you have the wrong forum. Around here, most seem to feel it is a need.

jere7my

2013-12-15, 09:12 PM

Not sure about the actual rules (or whether there are any), but I'd say that you can't heal actual injuries (i.e. not just hp damage, ability damage or magical effects) without some stronger spell. Just restoring yourself to full hp shouldn't actually heal a broken arm, just as it doesn't heal Redcloak's eye. If I were a DM, I'd say Heal spell (it's the only one I found that actually mentions injuries) would work, or if the DM was feeling generous, even a Restoration spell (which is for all ability damage), but since it's Giant's call, I don't think the arm will be healed before the fight ends, possibly only after Durkon regains his spells...

A ring of regeneration is one of the few things that do heal "actual injuries." Regeneration regrows severed limbs, etc.

Kish

2013-12-15, 09:28 PM

Come on, no need to be snarky...

All right. Non-snarkily, I think your position that "hit point damage" is in some way less than what you're calling "injuries" would be fundamentally wrongheaded even had you not thrown in "ability score damage" too, and that the great big hole in Roy's chest should be sufficient to demonstrate this. I also wonder what exactly you consider a Cure Wounds spell to be allowed to do, if it can't cure "actual injuries"; the impression I am getting is that your concept of healing magic is that it is something purely abstract that only heals a purely abstract form of damage. Which I believe is, again, fundamentally wrongheaded; the injuries healed by a Cure Light Wounds spell are as real as the fire created by a Burning Hands spell (and when we get to Cure Critical Wounds, we get to a level of actual effect equal to Teleport). The fact that D&D doesn't implement mechanical penalties for being at 1 hit point means their health system is unrealistic, it does not mean that someone at 1 hit point is less injured than someone who has a broken arm but no other injuries.

Clove

2013-12-15, 09:40 PM

Plain old healing should fix the arm. Its broken. It hasn't been broken off. And if it was broken off, I think if it could be held against the stump soon enough and for long enough, it would re-attach.

I'm a little fuzzy about the effect of a ring of regeneration actually allowing the character to regenerate like a troll. Its 'called' a ring of regeneration, but isn't it really just 'fast healing'?

I think maybe the name of the original item was kept from 1st or 2nd edition, but the effect was changed. Ultimately, it does whatever Rich thinks it does.

Scow2

2013-12-15, 09:52 PM

Technically speaking, it's not possible to break an arm under D&D mechanics. So I would suggest not stressing overmuch about whether something that a character logically could do is covered in the D&D rules, because Rich sure isn't.Actually, it is. It's a standard action to break an object, and the DC, while high, isn't insurmountable. You can do a lot of stuff if you focus on the simulationist aspect of the game and tell the tactical minigame to take a hike.

gorocz

2013-12-15, 09:54 PM

A ring of regeneration is one of the few things that do heal "actual injuries." Regeneration regrows severed limbs, etc.

Ooh... I didn't even know about the Regenerate spell (might've read about it when Redcloak lost his eye, but forgot about it), I presumed the ring only heals some hp over time. It actually even mentions broken bones (at least the spell), but the ring also says that it only heals stuff that happens while wearing it... Yes, I know the rules and Giant etc. etc. (and I approve of that), but in my opinion, being able to just pass it like a joint would be way too powerful (Don't bogart that ring, Haley. Pass it over to Elan. :smallbiggrin:). Either keep the "damage that happens while you wear it", or have it take the full hour of wearing for the healing to happen (so they'll have an easy way to mend the arm after the fight, without needing Durkon to change his spells). Either way, don't think the ring will be able to mend Haley's arm during this fight (and now I know about the Regenerate spell, not even with Durkon's help, since because there's explicitly a spell to fix spells, I don't think Heal would fix it).

gorocz

2013-12-15, 10:21 PM

I also wonder what exactly you consider a Cure Wounds spell to be allowed to do, if it can't cure "actual injuries"; the impression I am getting is that your concept of healing magic is that it is something purely abstract that only heals a purely abstract form of damage. Which I believe is, again, fundamentally wrongheaded; the injuries healed by a Cure Light Wounds spell are as real as the fire created by a Burning Hands spell (and when we get to Cure Critical Wounds, we get to a level of actual effect equal to Teleport). The fact that D&D doesn't implement mechanical penalties for being at 1 hit point means their health system is unrealistic, it does not mean that someone at 1 hit point is less injured than someone who has a broken arm but no other injuries.

Most of this is answered in previous posts. Since there IS a such thing as a broken bone in D&D and there is a spell to fix it (same as to regrow limbs, etc.), I don't think that just casting several Cure X Wounds will fix it (unless Rich wants it to).

And now to the more interesting part of your qeustion - my concept of Cure Wounds: you actually answered it yourself. Since being lowered to 1 hit points doesn't implement penalties, I take hitpoints as a purely abstract thing. Since I grew up on video games, I'm perfectly okay with explanation that being reduced to 1 hp and having no "injuries" and being on full hp and having an "injury" is neither more or less injured than the other. It's a different concept. A different game mechanic. When you're on 1 hp, a soft breeze incapacitaces you. When you're missing an arm...you're missing an arm. You can't use it. Hp loss would look exactly as it looks in the comic - scratches, burns, bruises etc. but they are not really specified, targeted or somehting like that. Cure X Wounds magically makes you to have less of those things or not have them at all, but it doesn't really target 1 specific part of your body, does it? (obviously, this can be roleplayed otherwise... some people can roleplay the whole combat, keeping record of every wound, every scratch etc. and then roleplaying the healing spell as well... other people can roleplay only the critical wounds (amongst which, a broken arm or a loss of a limb certainly could be) and then just go with what feels right, in regards to what's cured by what, but I've got no problem with keeping the roleplay elements for the story and keeping the combat simple by just explaining your strikes and keeping track of hp and active effects...)

jere7my

2013-12-15, 10:40 PM

I'm a little fuzzy about the effect of a ring of regeneration actually allowing the character to regenerate like a troll. Its 'called' a ring of regeneration, but isn't it really just 'fast healing'?

I think maybe the name of the original item was kept from 1st or 2nd edition, but the effect was changed. Ultimately, it does whatever Rich thinks it does.

The description in the SRD says, "If the wearer loses a limb, an organ, or any other body part while wearing this ring, the ring regenerates it as the spell."

Trillium

2013-12-16, 05:41 AM

However, the psychological shock of having one's arm broken in the middle of a fight could definitely incapacitate her for a while. Maybe not according to D&D by the books, but hey since when has that stopped Rich before?

She's a seasoned warrior (mmm, seasoning). Such things shouldn't shock her.

Ionathus

2013-12-16, 06:32 AM

The description in the SRD says, "If the wearer loses a limb, an organ, or any other body part while wearing this ring, the ring regenerates it as the spell."

Hmm. Guys, has anybody considered the last time one of the OotS lost an organ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0006.html)? I know it's weak but it is a precedent, and they did cure that with just a potion.

She's a seasoned warrior (mmm, seasoning). Such things shouldn't shock her.

Have you ever broken an arm before? I seriously doubt there are very many people who could just shrug that off and keep fighting, especially if the body part is something so important to a fighter (and especially a rogue) as manual dexterity.

Another thing to consider would be Haley's ability to tolerate pain. Assuming that falls under pseudo-Constitution concerns, I would expect that perhaps Roy, or Durkon, or maybe even Belkar would have a higher pain tolerance than her. If she was a front-line fighter I might agree more with you, but she's not. She's used to shooting from a distance and sneak attacking, not open confrontation. It would make sense that she's less able to handle that sort of shock.

Trillium

2013-12-16, 06:52 AM

Hmm. Guys, has anybody considered the last time one of the OotS lost an organ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0006.html)? I know it's weak but it is a precedent, and they did cure that with just a potion.

Have you ever broken an arm before? I seriously doubt there are very many people who could just shrug that off and keep fighting, especially if the body part is something so important to a fighter (and especially a rogue) as manual dexterity.

Another thing to consider would be Haley's ability to tolerate pain. Assuming that falls under pseudo-Constitution concerns, I would expect that perhaps Roy, or Durkon, or maybe even Belkar would have a higher pain tolerance than her. If she was a front-line fighter I might agree more with you, but she's not. She's used to shooting from a distance and sneak attacking, not open confrontation. It would make sense that she's less able to handle that sort of shock.

Haley got impaled by Bozzok and that did nothing to her psychology.

Roy got impaled twice in a row, and he was still alive, thinking rationally (and even kicking between two impalements).

As for pain tolerance, women have higher pain tolerance than men (men are just more stubborn so they don't reveal their pain as often). So if Roy could shrug off two impales, Haley can shrug off a broken arm.
After all, it can't be worse, than being shocked by a giant lightning orb.

Ionathus

2013-12-16, 06:58 AM

Haley got impaled by Bozzok and that did nothing to her psychology.

Roy got impaled twice in a row, and he was still alive, thinking rationally (and even kicking between two impalements).

As for pain tolerance, women have higher pain tolerance than men (men are just more stubborn so they don't reveal their pain as often). So if Roy could shrug off two impales, Haley can shrug off a broken arm.
After all, it can't be worse, than being shocked by a giant lightning orb.

But I think this discussion has touched on the the fact that things like impaling damage or lightning blasts are simply "abstract HP damage." This is a real, tangible attack on her abilities. And I still think a rogue with the CON in the mid-to-low ranges is going to have more difficulty sustaining a blow like this than one of the melee fighters. In my mind it has nothing to do with gender and everything to do with the fact that Haley's class means she has no business soaking up front-line damage.

Trillium

2013-12-16, 07:04 AM

But I think this discussion has touched on the the fact that things like impaling damage or lightning blasts are simply "abstract HP damage." This is a real, tangible attack on her abilities. And I still think a rogue with the CON in the mid-to-low ranges is going to have more difficulty sustaining a blow like this than one of the melee fighters. In my mind it has nothing to do with gender and everything to do with the fact that Haley's class means she has no business soaking up front-line damage.

If being stabbed through one's stomach is "abstract HP damage", then a broken arm is just an "abstract stat penalty".
If we bring in such real-life concepts as pain into game-world, they come with such things as pain tolerance from gender and the like.
Also, Constitution has nothing to do with pain. It doesn't matter how well-build you are and how long can you run, when you smash your pinky toe on a corner of a cupboard or get punched in the nose.

Poppy Appletree

2013-12-16, 07:16 AM

As for pain tolerance, women have higher pain tolerance than men (men are just more stubborn so they don't reveal their pain as often).

Just as a point, you can't really apply group averages to individuals. Regardless of whether Group A on average has higher X than Group B, that doesn't mean that an individual from Group A will have higher X than an individual from Group B. For further information, look up bimodal distributions.

Trillium

2013-12-16, 07:44 AM

Just as a point, you can't really apply group averages to individuals. Regardless of whether Group A on average has higher X than Group B, that doesn't mean that an individual from Group A will have higher X than an individual from Group B. For further information, look up bimodal distributions.

Sure, but chances that Haley's pain tolerance is higher than Roy are higher than 50%.
Is there even a point to elaborating on that? There are exception from every rule. So there's no point mentioning the possibility of those exceptions until they happen.

Fnordius

2013-12-16, 09:53 AM

Have you ever broken an arm before? I seriously doubt there are very many people who could just shrug that off and keep fighting, especially if the body part is something so important to a fighter (and especially a rogue) as manual dexterity.

You know, this is one of the biggest giveaways that this is D&D and not GURPS, as the combat rules for GURPS can be brutal. The way Tarquin broke that arm so matter-of-factly would have required a Fright Check on top of the pain and incapacitation it would cause. Core D&D lacks the high-res ability to reflect this, and Rich lampshades this by having Roy survive such show-stopping wounds like impaled on a triceratops horn.

So on the one hand, the character live in a world governed by the rules of D&D, but on the other they are governed by the story as well. If anything, I see this as a sign of Tarquin cheating, trying to do something that the world was not equipped to deal with, and Haley could just as much be in shock at what he just tried as from the novelty of a broken limb in a world where this was not known.

Think of it another way: this might be a setup for Rich lampshading the break by having Haley just treat it as another hit, ignoring the cosmetics of the injury and stating that it's a good thing there are no rules for broken limbs.

Rogar Demonblud

2013-12-16, 12:34 PM

Zz'dtri's Wands.

Need to cast Identify on each one to figure out what they are and how to use them. It takes an hour for each item/casting. Using those wands are beyond a desperation measure at this point, much akin to randomly detonating an artillery shell.

Keltest

2013-12-16, 12:40 PM

Need to cast Identify on each one to figure out what they are and how to use them. It takes an hour for each item/casting. Using those wands are beyond a desperation measure at this point, much akin to randomly detonating an artillery shell.

If Durkon or Elan were paying attention, its not inconceivable that they could recognize the wand by sight. Although that also assumes that they only have the one that looks like that particular wand, but its not completely impossible.

Scow2

2013-12-16, 12:49 PM

Have you ever broken an arm before? I seriously doubt there are very many people who could just shrug that off and keep fighting, especially if the body part is something so important to a fighter (and especially a rogue) as manual dexterity. Took a few months for my brother to get it fixed, but he didn't even realize his arm was broken until long after he'd beat his assailant unconscious in the barfight. You'd be surprised what the body can shut out in a life-or-death beat-down-drag-out fight.

As for pain tolerance, women have higher pain tolerance than men (men are just more stubborn so they don't reveal their pain as often). So if Roy could shrug off two impales, Haley can shrug off a broken arm.Not in D&D. Fighters, Paladins, Monks, Rangers, Druids, Barbarians, and Clerics have higher pain tolerance than Rogues, Bards, Wizards, and Sorcerers.

Think of it another way: this might be a setup for Rich lampshading the break by having Haley just treat it as another hit, ignoring the cosmetics of the injury and stating that it's a good thing there are no rules for broken limbs.Actually, there are. In the case a DM says a situation damages a specific body part (Usually through devious finger-smashing traps), the victim takes a -2 to all rolls involving that body part.

BaronOfHell

2013-12-16, 01:25 PM

Sure, but chances that Haley's pain tolerance is higher than Roy are higher than 50%.
Is there even a point to elaborating on that? There are exception from every rule. So there's no point mentioning the possibility of those exceptions until they happen.

I think the point is that without any info on variance, a group average doesn't provide any usable information about the individual.

Imagine if we've a group of 20 women & 20 men. 2 of the women have an extremely high pain tolerance (95 / 100) and the 18 other women ave a pain tolerance a bit below men's average (45 / 100), while all men fall very close to the average (a bit higher) (50 / 100), except for one who's very low (10 / 100). Now despite the averages stating the average female has a higher pain threshold (50 for women vs. 48 for men), it's obviously more likely that any randomly selected male has a higher pain threshold than any randomly selected woman.

Edit: Not to mention, why are you applying averages in the first place? Averages are for no knowledge situations. We know Roy's a high level fighter, of course he has a higher than average pain threshold. On the other hand, Haley isn't usually going in melee. I don't doubt she's a higher than average pain threshold for her gender as well, but I would be very surprised if Roy doesn't top her.

Also just a thought, is pain threshold linked to willpower in D&D?

Yoyoyo

2013-12-16, 01:34 PM

Think of it another way: this might be a setup for Rich lampshading the break by having Haley just treat it as another hit, ignoring the cosmetics of the injury and stating that it's a good thing there are no rules for broken limbs.

That would be funny, but I think the arm is broken purely to keep Haley from using her bow and limit how she will take part in this fight. I think she will still play a role in the melee, but that role will have to be up close and personal. No ranged attack for her.

As for her shocked expression at the broken arm, I doubt that is from pain (although, no doubt it hurts), but more astonishment from how T did it and to signal to the reader that her arm is in fact broken, which would be hard to see if she doesn't declare it. Stabs in the chest are an everyday thing in the OOTS world, but arm breaking karate chops are--at least up to now--pretty rare.

Lexible

2013-12-16, 01:44 PM

It could have been enough damage to bring her down to exactly zero HP.

Edit: ahaem. NINJA'd! I think that's a bit unlikely: wasn't Hayley uninjured before Tarquin's two attacks?

I also doubt the arm break does full hit points damage, otherwise why wouldn't combatants always attack for hit points + specific injury.

allenw

2013-12-16, 01:55 PM

Need to cast Identify on each one to figure out what they are and how to use them. It takes an hour for each item/casting. Using those wands are beyond a desperation measure at this point, much akin to randomly detonating an artillery shell.

Hardly. If Haley's Use Magic Device is at least +14 (reasonable at her level, given her apparently-positive Charisma modifer), then she can "Activate Blindly" (DC 25) with no chance of a mishap (they happen if you fail by 10 or more), and at least a 50% chance of success.
Assuming she points a wand at Tarquin and "pulls the trigger," the worst that could happen is if the effect of the wand is beneficial. However, many beneficial spells have a range of "Touch," in which case nothing would happen.
Personally, if I was the DM in a situation like this, I'd be tempted to allow Haley to (ab)use use her "Manyshot" feat to Blindly Activate all three wands at the same time (at some horrendous minus to the roll)...

Kish

2013-12-16, 02:05 PM

Also just a thought, is pain threshold linked to willpower in D&D?
You mean to Will saves?

Ionathus

2013-12-16, 02:10 PM

Took a few months for my brother to get it fixed, but he didn't even realize his arm was broken until long after he'd beat his assailant unconscious in the barfight. You'd be surprised what the body can shut out in a life-or-death beat-down-drag-out fight.

Not in D&D. Fighters, Paladins, Monks, Rangers, Druids, Barbarians, and Clerics have higher pain tolerance than Rogues, Bards, Wizards, and Sorcerers.

Actually, there are. In the case a DM says a situation damages a specific body part (Usually through devious finger-smashing traps), the victim takes a -2 to all rolls involving that body part.

Okay, I'll give you the first one, but I can also see a barfight being a lot messier and incoherent (not making an alcohol dig, just saying that close-quarters like that between two untrained fighters would be a lot more flailing than Tarquin and Haley's calculated moves). If you aren't completely aware of when and where you're being hit, I can see the adrenaline drowning it out. I see this break in the comic as very clear, everyone realizes it's happening, attention is drawn to it. Your brother's situation I sort of imagine as "he threw a punch/elbow or tried to block one and got his arm pretty banged up, and then they kept fighting," whereas this is very clear "Haley acts, Tarquin reacts and completely disables her." I mean, Haley's arm looks completely limp, if not flat-out bending the wrong way.

I definitely agree that in the middle of the fight you can shrug off a lot of things. But I think either Haley is too used to adrenaline or not used to taking melee damage.

For further comparison's sake, what kind of break was your brother's? Did it snap completely, did he just crack the bone, something in the middle?

And as for your second quote there...I don't know how you managed it, but those aren't my words, man. You done quoted Trillium and put my name on it. :smallconfused:

Nightsbridge

2013-12-16, 02:20 PM

Think of it another way: this might be a setup for Rich lampshading the break by having Haley just treat it as another hit, ignoring the cosmetics of the injury and stating that it's a good thing there are no rules for broken limbs.

Possible, but probably unlikely, as the giant has been moving away from rule lampshades for a while now.

BaronOfHell

2013-12-16, 02:23 PM

You mean to Will saves?

I think I may have temporarily confused the ability scores of D&D and Elder Scrolls.

I think in Morrowind there's willpower which among other things determines your ability to resist spells.

Amphiox

2013-12-16, 02:28 PM

What if Haley removed Tarquin's ring of regeneration at the time he broke her arm?

Whether Haley can or cannot use the ring to heal her arm, her taking the ring could be significant pertaining to Tarkin's fate...

T: "You fools! All this damage you try to do to me will be of no consequence! Have you forgotten my Ring of Regeneration?"

H: "Actually, I haven't."

(I want to see this!)

Took a few months for my brother to get it fixed, but he didn't even realize his arm was broken until long after he'd beat his assailant unconscious in the barfight. You'd be surprised what the body can shut out in a life-or-death beat-down-drag-out fight.

But that particular narrative ship has already sailed. If that was going to happen, Haley would not have noticed her arm being broken at the moment that it was. And because she HAS noticed, the psychological/pain hit on her has already occurred. It's a question now of how quickly she recovers from it.

Ionathus

2013-12-16, 05:52 PM

But that particular narrative ship has already sailed. If that was going to happen, Haley would not have noticed her arm being broken at the moment that it was. And because she HAS noticed, the psychological/pain hit on her has already occurred. It's a question now of how quickly she recovers from it.

Yeah, that's sort of what I meant to get at but just realized I never outright stated.

And, as I probably should have noted by my first post, I really don't expect this to incapacitate her totally during this fight. I still think she'll contribute maybe within a couple of rounds, and definitely by the end of the fight. Most of what I'm trying to do is run interference against all of the people who I fully expected to start saying "D&D rules clearly state blah blah blah, so if she doesn't stand up and fight like nothing happened in the next round then it's a clear indication that she's a bad person."

So I'm probably setting up my own personal strawman, but here's my opinion: If you've never had a broken arm before, give her a break.
If you have had a broken arm before, but didn't immediately stand back up to continue fighting your boyfriend's psychotic warlord father who is extremely well-versed in hand-to-hand combat as well as literally being in command of an entire nation, give her a break.
If you have, I salute you.
And if you didn't come here to argue that Haley should just shrug off her injuries, then I'm sorry I've been screaming at you from the top of this soapbox.

Rogar Demonblud

2013-12-16, 11:39 PM

Hardly. If Haley's Use Magic Device is at least +14 (reasonable at her level, given her apparently-positive Charisma modifer), then she can "Activate Blindly" (DC 25) with no chance of a mishap (they happen if you fail by 10 or more), and at least a 50% chance of success.
Assuming she points a wand at Tarquin and "pulls the trigger," the worst that could happen is if the effect of the wand is beneficial. However, many beneficial spells have a range of "Touch," in which case nothing would happen.
Personally, if I was the DM in a situation like this, I'd be tempted to allow Haley to (ab)use use her "Manyshot" feat to Blindly Activate all three wands at the same time (at some horrendous minus to the roll)...

And if it happens to be a wand of fireball, and you have no idea what the blast radius is?

Face it, the wands are going to be another red herring disguised as a Chekov's Gun, like Celia's talisman.

Ionathus

2013-12-17, 04:59 AM

And if it happens to be a wand of fireball, and you have no idea what the blast radius is?

Face it, the wands are going to be another red herring disguised as a Chekov's Gun, like Celia's talisman.

Except Celia's talisman still was a Chekhov's gun...it just jammed on the first shot.

SowZ

2013-12-17, 07:16 AM

Edit: ahaem. NINJA'd! I think that's a bit unlikely: wasn't Hayley uninjured before Tarquin's two attacks?

I also doubt the arm break does full hit points damage, otherwise why wouldn't combatants always attack for hit points + specific injury.

Constitution is more important in that regard. Physical damage is usually a Fort Save.

Also, Haley may be fairly useless in this fight. She won't be firing a bow with one arm. And while she can usually manage to stab people even though she isn't specced for melee, those people she stabs aren't usually near Epic level melee combatants in powerful armor.

allenw

2013-12-17, 10:43 AM

And if it happens to be a wand of fireball, and you have no idea what the blast radius is?

Then you have Evasion, if you're Haley. Maybe so does Tarquin; Psi-Mom doesn't.
Neither does Elan, but hey, a Wand of Fireballs is almost certain to be 5d6 damage (and even more certain to be 20' radius); even Elan can take that. Tarquin moreso, but every little bit helps.
The bigger problem is what will happen to the ship...

Rogar Demonblud

2013-12-17, 10:56 AM

Exactly.

Messing about with unknown magical devices is something best done in non-populated, less-damageable locations. Which is why I expect the Order to do so in an Inn.:smallwink:

Souhiro

2013-12-17, 11:07 AM

Then you have Evasion, if you're Haley. Maybe so does Tarquin; Psi-Mom doesn't.
Neither does Elan, but hey, a Wand of Fireballs is almost certain to be 5d6 damage (and even more certain to be 20' radius); even Elan can take that. Tarquin moreso, but every little bit helps.
The bigger problem is what will happen to the ship...

Big problem with that scenario is that Haley isn't Tarquin. Haley wouldn't shoot Elan while saying "You'll live"

Man, I laughted with the "Haley (a ranged rogue with d6 HD) will have a greater pain tolerance than Roy (Front line fighter)" Even Belkar should tolerate pain better than her!
Keep in mind, He was impaled by a chargin triceratops. Did he kneeled in a corner and said "My ribs..."?

Well, about Haley's Arm, I think that this is 100% narrative. Roy doesn't have any ribs broken, nor V needed time clearin his troath after being strangled, so I think it's a narrative device and nothing else. Also I'm pretty sure The Giant must be repenting of that scene that is generating so much hate!

ReaderAt2046

2013-12-17, 11:12 AM

I've found a good way to think of it is that hitpoint damage represents the sorts of wounds that will heal naturally, and thus a hitpoint-restorer can only heal things that would eventually heal on their own. So Haley's broken arm or Roy's lacerations can be Cured, because those will heal on their own with enough time, whereas losing an eye or a hand will never heal on its own, so Cure spells can't fix it.

Souhiro

2013-12-17, 11:58 AM

Man, Meteor rain, Dissintegrate, and being trampled by a horde of triceratops does HP damage. And I don't think that those would heal "Easily"

Also, broken arms heals "Naturaly" as much as most of Roy's wounds would heal. He has been impaled trough the abdomen with a greatsword. Before intravenous feeding (mid XIX century, maybe even XX) those would have been fatal: while your stomach heals you cannot feed yourself, so it was starve to death, or bleed to death.

But hey, a ton of "Cure" spells, or maybe "Heal" should have the job's done! Maybe even with a "Heal Check"

TheWatcher

2013-12-17, 02:27 PM

Blisstake

2013-12-17, 10:44 PM

I think breaking her arm wasn't a very good idea tactically. After all, she has three arms (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html) total to fight with (panel 1).

Kish

2013-12-17, 11:07 PM

What surprised me more is that this Tarquin could do this. It reminds me of Complains (from Goblins) who also broke his arms and his party couldn't heal it because they don't have access to regeneration yet.
Correction: His party couldn't heal it because Thunt ruled that Cure Light Wounds, the one healing spell they had access to, did bad things when cast on broken bones.

That means...exactly nothing outside of Thunt's writing, just as if three strips from now Durkon casts Cure Light Wounds on Haley and her arm's as good as new, it will mean nothing outside of Rich's writing.

Souhiro

2013-12-18, 03:58 AM

Well, even if Durkula casts Cure Light Wounds, it would heal 6-13 HP, while if one of the gobbos from "Gobbos!" would cast that spell, it would heal... 2-9?

Also, those aren't even the same world. Gobbos is more "Magical and Mistical" with odd magical effects (Like the maze of the many, the wood in GoblinSlayer's body, or Minmax's coloring armor) while The Sacred Order of the Stick is usually more "By the Book" D&D, except when narrative takes over the script.

Also, a broken arm, cleaved, chopped, bakened, eaten... it doesn't mind! they can heal it!!

Seriously, with so many good wandering clerics in the D&D worlds, I don't know how is that there is still people with peg-legs or eyepatchs. Darn... maybe the stereotipical peg-legged eyepatched pirate in the last panel could ask Durkula a little regeneration spell, too!

Fnordius

2013-12-18, 05:55 AM

Seriously, with so many good wandering clerics in the D&D worlds, I don't know how is that there is still people with peg-legs or eyepatchs. Darn... maybe the stereotipical peg-legged eyepatched pirate in the last panel could ask Durkula a little regeneration spell, too!

Last panel? Ah, the second panel. I see the guy you mean now.

To be fair, his eyepatch and his peg leg are merely cosmetics, as D&D doesn't seem to have rules to deal with niggling little details like that. Scars also seem to be a matter of taste, Elan sporting scars because it fits what he pictures himself to look like more than because healing is imperfect. The peg leg does not exist until someone decides that the (N)PC looks like that.

Seriously, though, this is a huge omission on the part of D&D, where it shows its Chainmail roots.

Trillium

2013-12-18, 06:40 AM

Benthesquid

2013-12-18, 01:12 PM

"So, this is it Elan! Maybe next time, you won't fight so hard to avoid serving your proper role in the- wait, why are you smiling?"

"Because I know something you don't know."

"What's that?"

"Haley's not left-handed."

JBiddles

2013-12-18, 05:41 PM

Big problem with that scenario is that Haley isn't Tarquin. Haley wouldn't shoot Elan while saying "You'll live"

Man, I laughted with the "Haley (a ranged rogue with d6 HD) will have a greater pain tolerance than Roy (Front line fighter)" Even Belkar should tolerate pain better than her!
Keep in mind, He was impaled by a chargin triceratops. Did he kneeled in a corner and said "My ribs..."?

Well, about Haley's Arm, I think that this is 100% narrative. Roy doesn't have any ribs broken, nor V needed time clearin his troath after being strangled, so I think it's a narrative device and nothing else. Also I'm pretty sure The Giant must be repenting of that scene that is generating so much hate!

I think it may be some feat or another that Tarquin has. The triceratops gore didn't explicitly break bones, and OOTS doesn't exactly follow the rules of reality. Haley's arm, though, is extremely badly broken, so much so that it's literally bent. Her reaction is likely a combination of pain from such a serious fracture, shock at an uncommon move, and psychological shock from being taken out of the fight. OR, and I certainly hope that this is the case, she stole Tarquin's Ring and is acting.

Souhiro

2013-12-19, 10:55 AM

Haley's disabling may be an act, maybe temporal (Someone throws her some healing potions) and can be a ton of things, but in the last strip, it was meant for just one thing:

Caster Battle!

Don't get me into the "Intinite Power Points": Laurie has as much Power Points, as V has the required spells prepared for the fight that morning!

Eric Tolle

2013-12-19, 01:26 PM

I also just considered it some crazy feat that Tarquin picked up from some obscure third-party sourcebook that no sane GM would allow in their game. Something like this:

SUNDER LIMB

Prerequisite: Greater Sunder, BAB 15

Upon making a Sunder check, the target loses use of one limb. If done on an arm, the target cannot use any two-handed weapons and is at -4 Strength. If a leg is targeted, target will be reduced to 1/4 movement.

( Yes that's badly written. Third party material, remember?)