Shifter and Druid

[Grayson01]

Wanna make a Shifter Druid

What ACF, Feats (other then Natrual Spell that's a given), Spells would you give/prepair Him? Also what AC would you give? Reasoning and book location please.

[Phelix-Mu]

Okay, Races of Eberron. Read it. Great Shifter Druid Substitution levels, particularly Beast Spirit (trade Animal Companion for Beast Spirit...very worth it). There are also a number of pretty useful shifter spells in that book.

Unless you want to go into Wild Shape combat a lot, consider Moonspeaker PrC heavily. It is one of the handful on worthwhile PrCs for druids to take, and while it isn't always worth all 12 levels, the benefits to a summoner druid are VERY considerable.

Consider if you want Wild Shape at all. There are a couple ones that get rid of Wild Shape and replace it with something else. This can be good for out-of-game considerations like a.) don't want all the paperwork associated with changing forms all the time b.) don't want to outshine players of lower-tiered characters. Dragon Aspect (Dragon Magic) is less exploitable, but still grants some nifty benefits with more limited scope but nice synergy with some other druid stuff (and stat boosts).

This all really should be geared to how much run-of-the-table you are aiming for, and the makeup of the rest of the party. Basic vanilla druid can pretty much make half the other classes in PHB obsolete with a round of summoning and a few spells, so the amount of cheese should be carefully calibrated to avoid bad table dynamic.

That said, there are few fluff+mechanic things that work out better than shifter druids.

[eggynack]

Well, first you're going to want some quantity of shifter substitution levels (RoE, 126). The 4th level one, reckless nature, is a no brainer, and beast spirit can be good, depending on your starting level and whether you go into moonspeaker (RoE, 143). I'd advise going moonspeaker, cause it's sweet on a number of levels. I haven't figured out the correct breakdown between the different aspects, which are how many moonspeaker levels you want, and how many standard druid levels you need in the build before beast spirit becomes worth taking. Whatever else you pick, avoid wild shifting, cause it's just bad.

As for other stuff, I'd just do things as a druid does them. Wild instincts (RoE, 191) is a reasonable low level spell to prep at higher levels, but mostly the spells that were once good will still be good now, and bad spells will remain bad. The same goes for feats, as I've been rather underwhelmed by shifter feats for the most part. So, what kinda stuff do you want to do? Also, what's your starting level, cause that changes things a bit, and it might mean less spell listing. I could also just PM you a link to the handbook I'm working on, because that'd probably contain all of the spell knowledge I'd otherwise dispense. The shifter section is unfortunately not really started yet though.

[Grayson01]

RoE is a great book wish I had my books with me at work. What a invision is a Druid who embraces the Preditory aspect of nature. CN (Not Stuiped CN) lives for the Hunt, and the more Predature forms of Wild Shape. Spells wanna focus on Summing (Pack Hunting) and Buffing my Wild Shap (and if I keep the AC it) What book is the Fleash racker?

What are some good forms for wild shape and where can they be found?

[eggynack]

Fleshraker is from MM III, page 40. Fleshraker makes for one of the better predatory wild shape forms, in addition to one of the better animal companions. You may want to ditch the animal companion entirely for beast spirit though. Might fit the predatory thing better. Moonspeaker is quite summoning focused, so that's also nice, though you lose some wild shape progression.

For summoning, you obviously don't have to prep anything for that, though mass snake's swiftness (SpC, 193) and animal growth make for good force multipliers. The big two summoning feats are greenbound summoning (LEoF, 8), and rashemi elemental summoning (UE, 45), and augment summoning, and ashbound (ECS, 50) make for good support feats for the style. For self-buffs, you're going to want the primal line of spells from dragon magic, as well as the bite of the were X line from the spell compendium. That stuff should be pretty workable as a start. I've never really considered how you'd put together a thematically satisfying list for a predatory druid, though I might now.

[Grayson01]

Fleshraker is from MM III, page 40. Fleshraker makes for one of the better predatory wild shape forms, in addition to one of the better animal companions. You may want to ditch the animal companion entirely for beast spirit though. Might fit the predatory thing better. Moonspeaker is quite summoning focused, so that's also nice, though you lose some wild shape progression.

For summoning, you obviously don't have to prep anything for that, though mass snake's swiftness (SpC, 193) and animal growth make for good force multipliers. The big two summoning feats are greenbound summoning (LEoF, 8), and rashemi elemental summoning (UE, 45), and augment summoning, and ashbound (ECS, 50) make for good support feats for the style. For self-buffs, you're going to want the primal line of spells from dragon magic, as well as the bite of the were X line from the spell compendium. That stuff should be pretty workable as a start. I've never really considered how you'd put together a thematically satisfying list for a predatory druid, though I might now.

Thanks that's a great start. I am probably going to go straight Druid. what Book is (LEoF) is that Lost Empire of Farun?

[Phelix-Mu]

For self-buffs, you're going to want the primal line of spells from dragon magic, as well as the bite of the were X line from the spell compendium. That stuff should be pretty workable as a start. I've never really considered how you'd put together a thematically satisfying list for a predatory druid, though I might now.

Essence of the raptor, hands down my favorite druid self-buff. But that might be my halfling druid and my inner skill monkey speaking. Certainly worth a gander. If you are keeping Wild Shape, then enhanced wild shape (Spell Compendium) is a real nice option, definitely good for milking that extra mile out of choice shapes (which is nice if you are losing some Wild Shape advancement and don't have a bunch of uses to play with).

I hear good things about the heart of air/water and the others of that ilk from Complete Mage, though that book came out after my prime druid days.

A metamagic rod of extend is a good investment for anyone doing extensive self-buffing, and works particularly well with the primal line from Dragon Magic (which each last 24 hours, IIRC). This way you can avoid cluttering your list with them every day.

There are a couple low-level spells that grant long-lasting claws, as I recall. These can be nice to add claws to forms that don't have them, but also for Improved Natural Attack (claws), which might be worth a feat if you don't mind a step down from the high-op stuff in favor of some raw damage. There is some limited synergy in this area with a couple shifter feats, but probably not enough to get excited about.

[eggynack]

Thanks that's a great start. I am probably going to go straight Druid. what Book is (LEoF) is that Lost Empire of Farun?
Eyup. If you're going straight druid, then beast spirit probably is the better way to go. It only picks up a bit later on, and moonspeaker doesn't advance it. The comparison between the two features, beast spirit and animal companion, is a tricky one. The former increases your casting ability directly, by giving you extra spells, and speeding up your summoning. However, the latter gives you extra actions, and an easy target for buffs. The animal companion is definitely better until level nine, when you get prepare spell, and it's probably worse at level twelve, when you get rapid summoning. Thus, level dependent. Anyway, I can't think of too many predatory spells, or at least any particularly predatory ones, but claws of the savage from the book of vile deeds might fit. Also, maybe blinding spittle (SpC, 32), and perhaps dire hunger (SpC, 65). Also vortex of teeth (SpC, 232), spirit jaws (SpC, 202), and possibly leonal's roar (BoED, 102). So, a lot, I guess.

[eggynack]

Essence of the raptor, hands down my favorite druid self-buff. But that might be my halfling druid and my inner skill monkey speaking. Certainly worth a gander.
That is pretty neat on a scoutish druid. It's a bit high in level and low in duration though. I also can't help but think that the lack of move silently boost could prove problematic. Still, certainly one of the bigger skill boosts out there.

[Phelix-Mu]

That is pretty neat on a scoutish druid. It's a bit high in level and low in duration though. I also can't help but think that the lack of move silently boost could prove problematic. Still, certainly one of the bigger skill boosts out there.

Yeah, this just goes to show I need to play a normal druid. My main, and totally unhinged, 3.5 experience involved a third party PrC that had been tweaked a bit. Anyway, the main attraction was that it granted the druid that took it the ability to cast spells spontaneously. Which was nice because it streamlined spell selection (by doing away with it), which was vital because I DM'd some of the time in that particular campaign and had my hands full planning. Rode that concept all the way into the mid-20s; though I eventually assigned myself a +2 level adjustment after realizing how totally borked that prc was (it had numerous other offending abilities, but spontaneous casting is the one pertinent to this discussion).

If you are going to focus on Wild Shaping and being a combat monster, then it might be worth looking at some of the feats that grant extra forms, which are pretty much always strong choices. eggynack is the expert here, but some of the additional forms from the one from Frostburn (Cold Wild Shape? what a terrible name for a feat) might add nice predatory flavor. Dragon Wild Shape (Draconomicon) is also pretty nice, though it's kind of over-the-top and a smidgeon non-druidy in my opinion. No creatures get melee combat like true dragons, though, so in terms of damage output under full buffs...yeah.

Also, I dunno, would it be worth it to nab Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike? That's a pretty combat-heavy focus, but druid might just be able to pull it off at higher levels, when feat choices are really limited only by your imagination.

Other than that,

[eggynack]

Frostburn (Cold Wild Shape? what a terrible name for a feat)
Frozen, actually. It might as well be called cryohydra wild shape, for all the variety it provides. Still pretty good.

Dragon Wild Shape (Draconomicon) is also pretty nice, though it's kind of over-the-top and a smidgeon non-druidy in my opinion. No creatures get melee combat like true dragons, though, so in terms of damage output under full buffs...yeah.
I've yet to really look into the topic, but I think that dragon forms are mostly good for utility stuff. You're limited to small and medium, and you get Ex and Su abilities, so utility stuff.


Also, I dunno, would it be worth it to nab Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike? That's a pretty combat-heavy focus, but druid might just be able to pull it off at higher levels, when feat choices are really limited only by your imagination.
You need to be an aberration, dragon, elemental, magical beast, or plant for that to work. You may be able to pull it off with aspect of the earth hunter though, cause that gets you the magical beast type. It might be worth it though.

[Red Fel]

Just going to leave this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225294) here.

Oh, and OP: When you read the link above, pay particular attention to the section on Shifter Druid ACFs.

[bekeleven]

I'd advise going moonspeaker, cause it's sweet on a number of levels. I haven't figured out the correct breakdown between the different aspects, which are how many moonspeaker levels you want, and how many standard druid levels you need in the build before beast spirit becomes worth taking.

This is one of the best outlines for a summoner druid. In general, you need effective animal companion level of 12. This means you need to hit Druid 9 and take natural bond at some point. However, I generally prioritize Moonspeaker's free extend more, so my build looks more like this.


1: Druid 1
Shifter Druid Substitution Level
Greenbound Summoning
2: Druid 2
3: Druid 3
Ashbound
4: Druid 4
Shifter Druid Racial Substitution Level
5: Druid 5
6: Druid 6
Imbued Summoning
7: Druid 7
8: Druid 8
9: Moonspeaker 1
Augment Summoning
Spell Focus (Conjuration)
10: Moonspeaker 2
11: Moonspeaker 3
12: Druid 9
Natural Bond
13: Paragnostic Apostle 1
Call of Worlds
14: Moonspeaker 4
15: Paragnostic Apostle 2
Divine Understanding (Summoner)
Beckon the Frozen
16: Contemplative 1
Bonus Domain (Summoner)
17: Moonspeaker 5
18: Moonspeaker 6
Metamagic School Focus (Conj)
19: Druid 10
20: Paragnostic Apostle 3
Mind over Body

If you're going straight druid, skill focus (basketweaving).

[Grayson01]

Thank you alll very much you have given me Some great Ideas, as well as a great starting base to work from.

[eggynack]

This is one of the best outlines for a summoner druid. In general, you need effective animal companion level of 12. This means you need to hit Druid 9 and take natural bond at some point. However, I generally prioritize Moonspeaker's free extend more, so my build looks more like this.


1: Druid 1
Shifter Druid Substitution Level
Greenbound Summoning
2: Druid 2
3: Druid 3
Ashbound
4: Druid 4
Shifter Druid Racial Substitution Level
5: Druid 5
6: Druid 6
Imbued Summoning
7: Druid 7
8: Druid 8
9: Moonspeaker 1
Augment Summoning
Spell Focus (Conjuration)
10: Moonspeaker 2
11: Moonspeaker 3
12: Druid 9
Natural Bond
13: Paragnostic Apostle 1
Call of Worlds
14: Moonspeaker 4
15: Paragnostic Apostle 2
Divine Understanding (Summoner)
Beckon the Frozen
16: Contemplative 1
Bonus Domain (Summoner)
17: Moonspeaker 5
18: Moonspeaker 6
Metamagic School Focus (Conj)
19: Druid 10
20: Paragnostic Apostle 3
Mind over Body

If you're going straight druid, skill focus (basketweaving).
That's rather interesting. I can't help but feel that it's going too heavy on the summoning though, probably to the detriment of your abilities. The return on summoning feats goes down like crazy after you get a couple of them. Like, picking up spell focus (conjuration) for beckon the frozen seems kinda pointless when you're getting free augment. Also, imbued has to be after level nine, because it too has spell focus as a prerequisite. It's like the whole build hinges on this one feat that you're going out of your way to skip by getting moonspeaker.

Finally, you probably want one of the big wild shape feats, because those too have high initial returns. My current favorite is exalted wild shape, and you could get that instead of spell focus at 9, but dragon or frozen are also nice. Anyways, I'll have to give some more consideration to these non-standard druid prestige classes. I suspect that they're as I suspect, and worse than more druid or moonspeaker levels, but it could be worth further evaluation.

[bekeleven]

That's rather interesting. I can't help but feel that it's going too heavy on the summoning though, probably to the detriment of your abilities. Absolutely. It's a summoner build, not a druid build. The build ends up with something like free x4 duration on summons, summoning as a standard, all summons get augmented/frozen/greenbound, +3/Hit, +HP=CL (and a CL of 23 with spells in the Summoner domain), Fast Healing 7, etc.

I find when I build a druid that I have to specialize in something (Casting, Wild Shape, or "other") or else my build ends up putting the rest of the party out of business. Granted, I've never played in super high-op.

[eggynack]

Yeah, that makes some sense. Still, I get the feeling that moving some resources away from summoning would actually make a character like that better at summoning. It seems counter-intuitive, but I think it's a logical conclusion. For example, being able to dimension door away from a location within a swift action could help with some summoning stuff in some fashion. It's a question worth some contemplation, I think, whether becoming crazy single minded in a build can detract from the very quality you're attempting to improve. It seems likely with druids, in any case, owing to how many of their build strategies open with a crazy powerful feat, before tapering off almost immediately.

[Grayson01]

I have been looking into everything that has been suggested. I am looking to focus on Wild Shape, and self buffing as my main focus. Taking the Shifter Beast Spirt ACF, Summoning being my back up in combat tool. I was wondering if the Warshaper at CL9 for the 5 levels or maybe just 2 or 3, any thoughts?

[eggynack]

I have been looking into everything that has been suggested. I am looking to focus on Wild Shape, and self buffing as my main focus. Taking the Shifter Beast Spirt ACF, Summoning being my back up in combat tool. I was wondering if the Warshaper at CL9 for the 5 levels or maybe just 2 or 3, any thoughts?
I'd just skip it entirely. I mean, if you really think about it, between the loss of spells, and the loss of wild shape advancement, you'd probably actually end up worse at changing form and beating face by taking warshaper. Master of many forms (CAdv, 58) makes for a superior wild shape specialist class, though it too will make you worse at everything not involving wild shape, and you probably should make that your 6th level if such is your aim. You're not really gaining anything by putting that off. Anyway, it's a really big drop in power, and you'll lose both summoning and beast spirit advancement (as well as normal spell advancement) by going that route, but if all you want is to become various things and consume other things in your gaping maw, that's the route to go.

[Grayson01]

I have been Mulling it over all day and I think you are right. I have also been looking at Wild Shape Forms so far I have: Fleshraker, Desmoda Hunting/Guard Bat, Razor Boar, and Sharks. Maybe adding in the War Beast template when I can.

Is Extend Spell and Persistent Spell worth it?

[eggynack]

Extend spell probably is, though you can replicate most of the best effects through a lesser metamagic rod of extend. Consider extending heart of water, primal instinct (every other day), and creeping cold, and possibly another long duration buff on the days when you don't have primal instinct. You could even do primal hunter, and have the combo up for half the spells/day. Druids get a decent number of long duration buffs, so some form of extension is great. Whether you need the feat for it is questionable.

As for persist, it's probably not all that necessary, because druids lack easy access to metamagic reduction. Moreover, a lot of your best buffs are rather long duration already, and you lack spells like mirror image which make persist really interesting. The short duration buffs are mostly things like bite of the were X, which are largely quantitative, rather than qualitative, and you could only persist werewolf anyway. It just doesn't seem to have as much utility on a druid as it does on a wizard or cleric.

Edit: Also, you can't take on templates during wild shape.

[bekeleven]

Straight druid (Or Planar Shepard) are the strongest full-wild-shape options.

Master of Many Forms is the best Wild Shape option; MoMF + Warshaper, with some magical items to compensate for Warshaper's WS HD loss, is the best option at wild shaping. But it won't be as strong as any full-casting druid.

For druids, there's a very small list of prestige classes that approach the base class in power. I'd start it with Planar Shepard, Moonspeaker, Arcane Heirophant (esp. with early qualification tricks), Lion of Talisid, and perhaps a few of the more broken general prestige classes like dweomerkeeper. This is because Druid's base class has making you a super-fighter (Wild Shape), a pet super-fighter (Animal Companion, buffed with feats and spells), and you are a god (full casting from one of the best lists).

That said, in 99% of all parties, going planar shepard (or even optimized druid) is overkill, so just take the classes you find most fun.

[Nimbryx]

Posting here because I'm new to DnD and I also have a question concerning a shifter race druid. Any thoughts about taking the first two racial subs and simply going wildshape, druid 15/ warshaper 5? I'm arguing between either that or maybe druid 5/MoMF 10/warshaper 5. Keeping warshaper on either side because I think it's simply too nice for a wildshape-invested character.

Thoughts behind Druid 15/ Shaper 5 would be to simply have access to huge forms without sacrificing *too* much of my caster progression as straight druid and augmenting my wildshape combat abilities through the use of warshaper. My goal is to embrace the multi-faceted applications of the druid, but focusing my feats on the aspect that I personally find appealing (wildshape). I hope that using my wildshape intelligently and actually choosing to stick with medium-huge forms while feating to hit harder (such as the racial shifter feats and assume supernatural ability) will prove to be a wise choice over investing in ever larger/smaller forms. I'm still not entirely decided on what type(s) I want to choose to shift to, though I know from my DM that dinosaurs are a strictly no-go in the world we're running and dragons are likely to be a tough sell.

For druid 5/ MoMF 10/ warshaper 5...I'm not entirely sold on MoMF, since it sacrifices a lot of the druid class' spellcasting power, though it does save on some feat costs concerning buying form sizes/types. I have no idea how long this campaign I'm rolling this druid for will last, but I'm rolling this character initially at level 10 and we still haven't seen the main antagonist of the campaign since his exposition at the start and he vaporized half of our 5 man party. But should it reach 20th level or higher, the epic shifter class progression seems nifty. But would a shapeshifter's utility of form at least compete with a spellcaster's capability? Seems like a silly question, but the variety of forms available to the Shifter with the inclusion of their (ex.) abilities at level 7 along with (su.) with levels of epic shifter may provide enough versatility to be worth considering. Even if I didn't take epic shifter, I could always feat into Assume (Su.) ability.

Another thing of note I found is that as a shifter you can also attain access to Shifter Savagery (double threat range, + 2 natural weapon size while raging and shifting). Is this feat actually worth the investment into trying to mess with figuring out how to get access to rage as a druid? Does a Shifter's shifting racial constitutes as a rage mechanic? The entry in RoE describes it as "...a state that's superficially similar to a barbarian's rage." I don't think it does, keyword being "superficially", but the wording is kinda wonky to me and the ability does grant additional combat prowess for a limited time as rage does, though not to the same extent.

For that matter, is it possible to shift and wildshape at the same time? Would the +2 physical statistic stack with the newly assumed shape's STR mod or is it dependent on the order the actions are performed? Do the shifter's natural attacks stack with a form's new attack?

I don't even know where to begin when it comes to wildshape feats. I'm not really impressed by frozen wild shape, simply because the whole reason some people get it is for the cryohydra once you reach huge - a form that, while terrifying in combat, can be easily beaten by an enclosed environ too small for it.

Draconic shapeshifting is interesting, since its limited to small or medium dragons, though it's less enticing when I look at true dragons' size categories vs age/ability progression. Does anyone know of any solid resources for dragons outside of Draconomicon and MM? I'm probably going to start looking in the Faerun books for the gem and metal inspired dragons -though I may want to mess around with the fang or shadow dragons, since I think CON damage not only does the damage from the bite, but also reduces their hit points further by affecting their CON mod? I'm still relatively new to DnD, so I'm not sure how negative levels/statistics are calculated or what their effectiveness is.

I'm contemplating exalted wildshape, provided I can barter with my DM to apply the (ex.) and (su.) to other forms outside of the feat since the feat itself really isn't very clear. I can envision the blinkdog and unicorn being useful, and the celestial template provides some okay features. I don't know what other feats there are for wildshape, but in terms of other related feats I can see myself using natural spell, INA (claw), multiattack, assume (su.), and possibly rapidstrike? I think it's a rather silly feat when you can simply shapeshift to a form with more attacks to begin with, unless you're dedicated to a specific favorite form maybe.

This is a bit of writing, but does anyone have any thoughts?

[eggynack]

MoMF vs. warshaper
I don't really get the general love of warshaper. It seems like it just makes you generally worse at wild shape, especially if you're getting this stuff instead of shapechange. It's just a pile of numbers, and not fantastic ones either. Sure, if you're getting it in exchange for not-spells, it's perfectly fine, but getting it in exchange for spells, and also wild shape progression, seems like a mistake. MoMF can at least add some variety to the shtick, and take you down roads that you can't take as a straight druid. If you really want to push wild shape, I'd advise going with the MoMF build, because it's better for that sort of thing. Actually, I'd advise just going straight druid, cause that's the best, but if you're going MoMF, you're not really a druid anymore anyway. You're just a master of many forms, which is quite good, but a different thing.


Another thing of note I found is that as a shifter you can also attain access to Shifter Savagery (double threat range, + 2 natural weapon size while raging and shifting). Is this feat actually worth the investment into trying to mess with figuring out how to get access to rage as a druid? Does a Shifter's shifting racial constitutes as a rage mechanic? The entry in RoE describes it as "...a state that's superficially similar to a barbarian's rage." I don't think it does, keyword being "superficially", but the wording is kinda wonky to me and the ability does grant additional combat prowess for a limited time as rage does, though not to the same extent.
It probably isn't worth the investment, primarily because druids tend to transcend numbers at least a little bit. Such is the nature of casting. It's not that hard to pick up though, as druidic avenger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druidVariantDruidicAve nger) is a thing. Not a trade I would take, but it might actually be a good one if you're leaving druid after five levels.


For that matter, is it possible to shift and wildshape at the same time? Would the +2 physical statistic stack with the newly assumed shape's STR mod or is it dependent on the order the actions are performed? Do the shifter's natural attacks stack with a form's new attack?
Yep.


I don't even know where to begin when it comes to wildshape feats. I'm not really impressed by frozen wild shape, simply because the whole reason some people get it is for the cryohydra once you reach huge - a form that, while terrifying in combat, can be easily beaten by an enclosed environ too small for it.
Yeah, I've gotta agree on that one. Not really for the enclosed area argument, though it's a factor, but just because it's more of the same. It's a phenomenal beatstick, but you're already a pretty phenomenal beatstick. You can do better.


I'm contemplating exalted wildshape, provided I can barter with my DM to apply the (ex.) and (su.) to other forms outside of the feat since the feat itself really isn't very clear. I can envision the blinkdog and unicorn being useful, and the celestial template provides some okay features.
Blink dog is rather ridiculously powerful. Not only is free action dimension door something that's always great; it's something that druids struggle to gain access to natively. Without that, your tactical teleportation options are limited to crap like shuffle (Shining South, 49) and unicorn heart (CM, 121). It's not much. Druids also don't get much miss chance, so blinking is nice as well. It's a feat that fills two rather large holes in the druid's otherwise expansive arsenal of tricks. Unicorn form is nice too, as is the Ex and Su ability thing (pretty much just Ex), but blink dog would probably be worth it on its own.

Anyways, if it were me, and I wanted to play a shifter druid who loves wild shape, I'd just go druid 20, take the two substitution levels, and maybe add in exalted wild shape. That's all you really need to be great at wild shape, though MoMF is nice too. If you do go MoMF, you should check out the MoMF bible (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1060931), because it's a nifty handbook. I'm unfortunately not yet an expert in dragon wild shape, though I should probably make that stop being the case soon.