Redcloak, rebellion and Regeneration

[Gil-Galad II]

Ok, so, slight change of topic from the current themes on the forum, but I was thinking about Redcloak and how his arc with Xykon will play out - and it occurred to me that there is no reason why Redcloak wouldn't have secretly Regenerated his lost eye. After all, it's constantly covered with an eyepatch, and we know that Redcloak has little regard for the 'control' Xykon has over him. So, my theory is that Redcloak has indeed regained his eye some time ago - and that it'll be revealed accidentally at some point in the future, opening Xykon's own eyes up to Redcloak's greater insubordination. Which would be ironic. Although, Xykon's a lich, so he can't really open his eyes, and...ok, ok, shutting up.

Anyway, anyone else have any thoughts on this? Does this contradict Redcloak's characterisation in some way? Has it already been discussed on the forums? Am I reading waaay to much into inconsequential details that don't really matter? Does this make me a true Playgrounder?:smalltongue:

[Rakoa]

I think that it is too important to Redcloak that Xykon remains unsuspecting, and if he is just going to keep it covered anyway then he has no reason to regenerate it secretly...seeing as how either way, he won't be using it.

[Macros]

It does look like a stupid risk with absolutely nothing to gain. Now, of course, people are not rational 100% of the time, and if I was missing an eye and had a mean to get it back, it wouldbe very tempting indeed. But as far as Redloak is concerned, I think he's more than willing to make insignificant sacrifices (I mean, is there even a penalty for losing your eye in the rules?:smalltongue:) so that Xykon doesn't suspect anything until the time comes (how successful is he at that is another debate).

[BaronOfHell]

there is no reason why Redcloak wouldn't have secretly Regenerated his lost eye.
You write there's no reason..


Redcloak has indeed regained his eye some time ago - and that it'll be revealed accidentally at some point in the future, opening Xykon's own eyes up to Redcloak's greater insubordination.
Yet you present one yourself.

I really hope RC is smart enough not to take such an unnecessary risk.

[DeadMG]

Redcloak wouldn't take that kind of risk. His eye is no good to him covered up anyway and he'd be more than willing to sacrifice it for the Plan. Plus, it's not like he's got a one-chance opportunity here, he can prepare Regenerate any day.

[jogiff]

I mean, is there even a penalty for losing your eye in the rules?:smalltongue:

Technically there aren't. But most DMs would put a penalty on spot/search checks and on ranged attacks. But the only rules pertaining to non-magical eyepatches are homebrewed rules.

A couple weeks ago my DM said my small-sized (pistol wielding) cavalier would take a penalty on ranged attacks if he wore the ridiculously expensive non-magical eyepatch that he took from a huge-sized giant.

[Macros]

Sounds fair, of course.


if he is just going to keep it covered anyway then he has no reason to regenerate it secretly...seeing as how either way, he won't be using it.


His eye is no good to him covered up anyway and he'd be more than willing to sacrifice it for the Plan. Plus, it's not like he's got a one-chance opportunity here, he can prepare Regenerate any day.

While I agree with the general idea, and don't think Redcloak will put the Plan in jeopardy just to get his eye back, let's acknowledge that he remains a human (well, sort of) being with feelings and impulse, and that missing an eye might be something that is difficult to think about while only using cold logic. Even smart and wise people can sometimes do dumb things when emotions are involved, and mutilation might provoke some sort of instinctive reaction, especially when you have an easy mean to fix it.

Now that I have said that, I actually do agree that Redcloak probably is focused enough to discard an eye for the Greater Good (well, again, sort of), and it's not like it would be the first time he gave up something he care about in his pursuit of the Plan. But I wouldn't be too surprised if it was revealed that he gave in to the temptation at some point, even if the odds are low.

[factotum]

Technically there aren't. But most DMs would put a penalty on spot/search checks and on ranged attacks.

Neither of which are likely to be that important to Redcloak, of course. I agree with the others--even if he *is* inconvenienced somewhat by the missing eye, it's considerably less risky for him to leave it be than to Regenerate it and then just cover it with an eye patch and make it useless anyway.

[Souhiro]

Well, It's stated in the last panels of Start of Darkness that Redcloak fears Xykon. Maybe it could grow some guts with lLvl-9 spells, but for the time being... I think that it's happy under Xykon's lash.,

You know, the eternal evil vizier, "I want to become Caliph instead of the Caliph" but in the end, the vizier machinates, comfabulates, plots... and do NOTHING.

Also, I think that Red wouldn't dare to regenerate the eye in his lifetime. Should Xykon discover an eye under the patch, it would be too terrible to even describe what would Xykon do to him!

[Rodin]

Well, It's stated in the last panels of Start of Darkness that Redcloak fears Xykon. Maybe it could grow some guts with lLvl-9 spells, but for the time being... I think that it's happy under Xykon's lash.,

You know, the eternal evil vizier, "I want to become Caliph instead of the Caliph" but in the end, the vizier machinates, comfabulates, plots... and do NOTHING.

Also, I think that Red wouldn't dare to regenerate the eye in his lifetime. Should Xykon discover an eye under the patch, it would be too terrible to even describe what would Xykon do to him!

Redcloak's current set of deceptions invalidate that theory, I think. If Xykon would shove Redcloak's eye where the sun don't shine just because he Regenerated it, imagine what he would do if he found out about The Plan, or other recent developments. Redcloak has been actively setting himself up against Xykon for some time now.

I do agree with the prevailing thought that it's a stupid risk that Redcloak is unlikely to take.

[martianmister]

It's hard to say. It would be a big risk for him, but considering his lately recklessness, I wouldn't be surprised if he did that.

[Passer-by]

Technically there aren't. But most DMs would put a penalty on spot/search checks and on ranged attacks. But the only rules pertaining to non-magical eyepatches are homebrewed rules.

A couple weeks ago my DM said my small-sized (pistol wielding) cavalier would take a penalty on ranged attacks if he wore the ridiculously expensive non-magical eyepatch that he took from a huge-sized giant.

Tell your DM that you don't shoot with both your eyes open. You actually have to close one. I've also heard about snipers that wear one eye covered as part of their equipment. Penalties to Spot checks would be fine, though.

[oonker]

Tell your DM that you don't shoot with both your eyes open. You actually have to close one. I've also heard about snipers that wear one eye covered as part of their equipment. Penalties to Spot checks would be fine, though.

It actually makes sense that your vision gets more accurate precision IF you close one eye, rather than trying to aim with your two eyes open. Your brain has to take two pictures into account and mix them, in order for you to see anything. Plus, most two eyes are different from each other, which would mean that the brain has to take that into their calculations, as well. You just have to close one eye, and your perspective will get better for lines of sight.

Of course, it would get worse for depth perception, which affects the strength with which you'd pull the string of the bow, or if you tried to take an angled shot. But for a straight bullet? It could only get better to close an eye! =D

[Greatmoustache]

well.

in short range, the "noone shoots with both eyes open, duh!" make sense. but in long range, considering the parabolic movement of the arrow (due to gravity) may require a range evaluation first. which is impossible to make with one eye.

(now don't go all like "so real life snipers don't need to consider range? do you think bullets are immune to gravity?" those guys have range finders, crosshairs with dots for various distances etc. also if anyone argues via this point, i'd say there aren't any sniper rifles in oots therefore you guys are derailing the topic. i may even play the real world politics card. :smallamused:)

[BaronOfHell]

long range [..] may require a range evaluation first. which is impossible to make with one eye.
Shake your head.

[Greatmoustache]

why, the arrows might very well fall short if you're wrong. and the whole purpose of stereo vision is to determine distances.

[Nightsbridge]

Redcloak's current set of deceptions invalidate that theory, I think. If Xykon would shove Redcloak's eye where the sun don't shine just because he Regenerated it, imagine what he would do if he found out about The Plan, or other recent developments. Redcloak has been actively setting himself up against Xykon for some time now.

I do agree with the prevailing thought that it's a stupid risk that Redcloak is unlikely to take.

'Some time' in this case meaning 'pretty much from the very beginning.' This whole gates plan was all part of Redcloak subverting Xykon, after all.

[Rift_Wolf]

Don't remember exactly where it is in the comics, but there's a panel where Redcloak is looking into a mirror with an eyepatch and saying 'don't worry, it'll be all worth it.' Just because he's making a reference to killing his brother in SoD doesn't mean he's not also referencing his lost eye.

[JSSheridan]

Well, we can't see that RC has or hasn't regenerated his eye, so it's a Schrödinger's Eye.

[JennTora]

Ridiculous unfounded sspeculation, but redcloak could have regenerated his eye and made/acquired some sort of see through eye patch that doesn't come off, or hired a lower level wizard/sorcerer to put a permanent image of an eyepatch over his eye(I don't think clerics get any of the good illusions).

[BaronOfHell]

why

Because you wrote it was impossible, which it isn't.

With the lack of one eye, moving the head from side to side (shaking it) is a method to determine distance (as object closer to you has a smaller field to move through, hence they'll move faster/further (and appear larger, etc.)). It may require some practice though.

[Scow2]

why, the arrows might very well fall short if you're wrong. and the whole purpose of stereo vision is to determine distances.It helps, but have you ever played a video game that required calculating distance? You're not using stereo vision for that.

Motion Parallax is a very effective way to gauge depth perception, and one two-eyed people tend to overlook. My brother's blind in one eye, and has quite good depth perception at greater distances (It's close range where depth perception's screwed up without stereo vision.)

[King of Nowhere]

It helps, but have you ever played a video game that required calculating distance? You're not using stereo vision for that.

Motion Parallax is a very effective way to gauge depth perception, and one two-eyed people tend to overlook. My brother's blind in one eye, and has quite good depth perception at greater distances (It's close range where depth perception's screwed up without stereo vision.)

aww, ninja. binocular vision is good for calculating distances up to about 20 meters, over that distance it is too far for the difference betwen the eyes to be appreciable. we have plenty of othr ways to judge distances, like seeing how big we see a person.

anyway, even if redcloak has a patch, a regenerated eye may be exposed at any time. say one o0f the many heroes that tries to take xykon on a regular base cast a fireball that, besides dealing some damage, incinerates the eyepatch. or redcloak trip on the stairs and in falling the eypatch comes out. or xykon simply want to check. way too risky.

[The Pilgrim]

After all the abuse Redcloak has endured during years, it's doubtful he will take such a risk just to secretly laught at Xykon.

[Kurashima]

I am calling this now

Redcloak will only reveal his eye, in a classic theatrical fashion, at the point where he knows he has Xykon beat and his goals are achieved. Whether he "Grows a set" and does it right in front of Xykon, or does it in a seperate panel after Xykon is defeated, is irrelevant. The regeneration of the eye will only occur IF Redcloak achieves his goals.

I would not argue against Redloak already preparing that spell every day, just in case, for the day when it's needed.

Its classic fantasy sidekick-with-a-plan behaviour.

[Snails]

After all the abuse Redcloak has endured during years, it's doubtful he will take such a risk just to secretly laught at Xykon.

Given how Xykon treats Redcloak in 901 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html), do not count on cold logic to rule their relationship for long.

There is actually one logical reason to regenerate: just in case someone takes out his remaining eye.

[Bulldog Psion]

If Redcloak put up with Tsukiko's constant taunting and provocation for months when he had the power to easily eradicate her, and killed his own brother, both to avoid disrupting The Plan, I doubt he's going to make so obvious a gaffe as to regenerate his eye when the endgame is already in progress.

[Boring McReader]

It's hard to say. It would be a big risk for him, but considering his lately recklessness, I wouldn't be surprised if he did that.

He hasn't been reckless. He's making big moves behind Xykon's back, but they're all necessary for his eventual betrayal to work. He's basing his actions on his knowledge of Xykon's personality and his control over Xykon's sources of information.

Regenerating his eye would be a private statement of rebellion that makes no contribution to his long-term goals. If he's angry enough, he could do it. But it's more likely he'd hold off regenerating until the very end, at which time he'd reveal his new eye to show Xykon how little control Xykon has over him. Redcloak is patient, he won't throw away years of work and sacrifice so carelessly.

[Gift Jeraff]

:redcloak: Stupid risks are just that: stupid. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html)

Then again, I'd say the whole "fauxlactery" scheme is a stupid risk, at least based on what we know.

[Boring McReader]

:redcloak: Stupid risks are just that: stupid. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html)

Then again, I'd say the whole "fauxlactery" scheme is a stupid risk, at least based on what we know.

It's a risk, but it's also his best chance to seize control from Xykon when he needs it. It's like the risk the Fiends took when they gave V enough power to get killed recklessly. Dangerous, but well worth the potential payoff.

[TRH]

It occurs to me that Redcloak wouldn't need to memorize Regeneration for this; so long as he kept Right-Eye's scroll from SOD, then he could just cast that as soon as he feels it's safe. Still, I rather doubt he's done so just yet.

[Nightsbridge]

:redcloak: Stupid risks are just that: stupid. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html)

Then again, I'd say the whole "fauxlactery" scheme is a stupid risk, at least based on what we know.

I'd say these are very different circumstances. He would have gained nothing if he fought the paladin and won that he would not have gained from letting the elemental squeeze him to death. The fauxlactery scheme gives him power over Xykon's very existence, and without the lich being aware of it.

[Passer-by]

Of course, it would get worse for depth perception, which affects the strength with which you'd pull the string of the bow, or if you tried to take an angled shot. But for a straight bullet? It could only get better to close an eye! =D

Nope. When you pull the string of the bow, you are not looking at the bow, nor the string. The string goes to the side of the face. Fiction usually depicts archers using their bows in weird action poses (as much as I loved the Avengers movie, boy, Hawkeye feels... wrong :smallbiggrin: ) that may decieve.

I don't expect the Giant throwing in a line such as this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0629.html) (the ABD's last one) with Redcloak. I wouldn't mind that much, but I hope no one says it, because it would be totally wrong.

[BeerMug Paladin]

Ok, so, slight change of topic from the current themes on the forum, but I was thinking about Redcloak and how his arc with Xykon will play out - and it occurred to me that there is no reason why Redcloak wouldn't have secretly Regenerated his lost eye. After all, it's constantly covered with an eyepatch, and we know that Redcloak has little regard for the 'control' Xykon has over him. So, my theory is that Redcloak has indeed regained his eye some time ago - and that it'll be revealed accidentally at some point in the future, opening Xykon's own eyes up to Redcloak's greater insubordination. Which would be ironic. Although, Xykon's a lich, so he can't really open his eyes, and...ok, ok, shutting up.

Anyway, anyone else have any thoughts on this? Does this contradict Redcloak's characterisation in some way? Has it already been discussed on the forums? Am I reading waaay to much into inconsequential details that don't really matter? Does this make me a true Playgrounder?:smalltongue:

This actually does contradict redcloak's characterization. In fact, it does so pretty spectacularly, I think. Spoilered for SoD spoilers.

In SoD, redcloak gave up everything that matters to him for the sake of accomplishing the plan. His entire life has basically been a slide of giving up everything and everyone around him, bit by bit, until he has nothing left to live for but the wild scheme the Dark One has given him to accomplish.

Redcloak is pretty clearly suffering from the sunk cost (or whatever it's called) fallacy. If he gave up on the plan now, after everything that he's given up, after everything he's been forced to do that will have made it all the suffering pointless.

Redcloak's characterization is such that he'd give up anything for the sake of the plan. If losing an eye is the cost for working with Xykon, then he will just no longer have an eye. No matter how bad things get, he believes that one final sacrifice, one final act, is all that will be required to finally get everything into working order. When the next loss comes, he is used to the new status quo and just repeats the same thing...

Also, as others have noted, Redcloak is smart, doesn't take stupid risks, and is pretty much willing to let Xykon call the shots and order him around. He does believe that the OOTS is a viable threat, and yet when Xykon ordered him to leave the area immediately without bothering to kill them, he was angry, but actually did obey.

Redcloak's only possible reason to disobey a direct order from Xykon would be for the sake of the plan, which is why he killed Tsukiko, even though it was a risk to do so, it was riskier to let her live with what she told him.

[Roland Itiative]

Why would he regenerate his eye just to have it patched up for the foreseeable future? It would just be a risk, with no possible reward. He can regenerate his eye whenever he wants, he can just wait until aggravating Xykon is not an issue anymore.

[Niknokitueu]

This actually does contradict redcloak's characterization. In fact, it does so pretty spectacularly, I think. Spoilered for SoD spoilers.

In SoD, redcloak gave up everything that matters to him for the sake of accomplishing the plan. His entire life has basically been a slide of giving up everything and everyone around him, bit by bit, until he has nothing left to live for but the wild scheme the Dark One has given him to accomplish.

Redcloak is pretty clearly suffering from the sunk cost (or whatever it's called) fallacy. If he gave up on the plan now, after everything that he's given up, after everything he's been forced to do that will have made it all the suffering pointless.

Redcloak's characterization is such that he'd give up anything for the sake of the plan. If losing an eye is the cost for working with Xykon, then he will just no longer have an eye. No matter how bad things get, he believes that one final sacrifice, one final act, is all that will be required to finally get everything into working order. When the next loss comes, he is used to the new status quo and just repeats the same thing...

Also, as others have noted, Redcloak is smart, doesn't take stupid risks, and is pretty much willing to let Xykon call the shots and order him around. He does believe that the OOTS is a viable threat, and yet when Xykon ordered him to leave the area immediately without bothering to kill them, he was angry, but actually did obey.

Redcloak's only possible reason to disobey a direct order from Xykon would be for the sake of the plan, which is why he killed Tsukiko, even though it was a risk to do so, it was riskier to let her live with what she told him.


I am calling this now

Redcloak will only reveal his eye, in a classic theatrical fashion, at the point where he knows he has Xykon beat and his goals are achieved. Whether he "Grows a set" and does it right in front of Xykon, or does it in a seperate panel after Xykon is defeated, is irrelevant. The regeneration of the eye will only occur IF Redcloak achieves his goals.

I would not argue against Redloak already preparing that spell every day, just in case, for the day when it's needed.

Its classic fantasy sidekick-with-a-plan behaviour.
These two posts are basically how I feel about the issue. Redcloak won't take the risk of regenerating his eye until and unless victory is a foregone conclusion.

It is unlikely he will secretly regenerate his eye beforehand, just due to the risk of Xykon accidently finding out. But during/after betraying Xykon? Can easily see that happening.

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu