[3.5] Two Bluff Questions

[Thurbane]

Two Bluff questions, and how people run it in their games:

1.) Given how easy it is to pump Bluff at relatively low levels, is there any limit of how outrageous a lie you can make people believe? Given that the Sense Motive modifier caps out at +20 for unbelievable lies (which is handily countered by a Glibness spell), is anything out of limits?

2.) How do you run Bluff vs. PCs? If a PC fails a check, is he obliged to wholeheartedly believe what he has just been told, even though he might have very good reason to not believe it, either in or out of character?

The second point in particular, has proven a bit thorny for our group.

Just interested to hear people's opinions.

For the record, yes, it is also possible to boost Sense Motive very high too, but it's unlikely every PC or NPC (or even the majority) will do so.

Cheers - T

[Nettlekid]

Something my group often uses (and I'm not sure how I feel about it, because it does help with the issue of ridiculous bluffs but also means they carry less weight in general) is that a successful Bluff check means that the listener is convinced that the speaker believes this statement is true. It doesn't necessarily mean that the listener also believes the statement is true.

[Kennisiou]

I rule that you can't flat out bluff things that are obviously completely provably wrong (ie: convincing a commoner that the sky is green). No rolls happen here. You're not bluffing you're just lying, and there is a difference.

PCs by RAW are in control of their own attitudes. All they get by failing their own sense motive check is the feeling that this person isn't lying. Whether or not they actually trust that person depends on the PC's attitude. If they believe the person is telling the truth but is incompetent, using the truth to their advantage, or just are not playing a trusting character they can choose to act otherwise. I house rule that certain important NPCs are "DMPC" characters who have the PC property of being in control of their own attitudes. They can be influenced by bluff or diplomacy, but in the end their attitudes and actions are their own and no amount of intimidation, bluff, or diplomacy is going to change the fact that they're a vengeful celestial bent on destroying the world to eradicate sin or the king of the largest empire in the world with bigger concerns than whatever the party happens to be doing right now.

[Slipperychicken]

1.) Given how easy it is to pump Bluff at relatively low levels, is there any limit of how outrageous a lie you can make people believe? Given that the Sense Motive modifier caps out at +20 for unbelievable lies (which is handily countered by a Glibness spell), is anything out of limits?


Try to keep your lies believable like you normally would, so that a) You annihilate the Bluff check harder, and b) the GM doesn't phonebook you with a DMG.

For normal people like us, that +20 renders the check basically impossible. If you can beat someone's Sense Motive check +20 without cheesing it, then you've earned that impossible lie IMO.

EDIT: It might be reasonable to nerf Glibness down to like +10 or +15. It would still be a damn good spell, it just wouldn't be 100% ludicrously OP without a character who is already good at bluffing.



2.) How do you run Bluff vs. PCs? If a PC fails a check, is he obliged to wholeheartedly believe what he has just been told, even though he might have very good reason to not believe it, either in or out of character?


If a PC fails, he fails. Just like with any other roll. That's how the game works. Remember, if he's later convinced otherwise (like if he looks at the sky and notices that it isn't green. Or looks the wine bottle labelled "poison, do not drink". Or his trusted smart wizard friend reminds him that the corridor is indeed trapped), then he can go back to not believing the Bluff.

Think about it this way: Do you let PCs automatically succeed attack rolls because they really should be able to hit flat-footed guards? The existing modifiers reflect the changes in difficulty.

[holywhippet]

Even epic level bluff usage, which can act like a suggestion spell, requires that the suggestion be something reasonable. You can't order someone to hand over all of their valuables because their god has sent you to collect them. Well, some people maybe.

[TypoNinja]

Always remember that even if they believe the lie, they will not necessarily do what the PC wants. A guard ordered not to let anybody not on a list past might believe you are the King of <insert realm here> but he doesn't have to let you in, he might instead "Sorry your majesty, let me call the Captain of the Guard and get you authorized right away."

Or they might only briefly believe the lie if its something they could verify rapidly.

Also never forget circumstance bonuses. Large ones. Certain classes of bluff targets (like sentries) are going to be naturally extremely suspicious of anything out of the ordinary. Don't be shy about +10 or greater circumstance bonuses. No Guard ever got fired for not letting people in who didn't have the right documentation.

[KillianHawkeye]

Something my group often uses (and I'm not sure how I feel about it, because it does help with the issue of ridiculous bluffs but also means they carry less weight in general) is that a successful Bluff check means that the listener is convinced that the speaker believes this statement is true. It doesn't necessarily mean that the listener also believes the statement is true.

This is how we play it as well. The Sense Motive skill tells you if a person is being honest or lying, basically. So if you fail the check, you believe the person is being honest even if they are not. However, that doesn't necessarily mean what they're saying is correct. The person may be misinformed, or under mind control, or honestly believing in false or faulty information for some other reason.

IMO, it's the player's job to question things, not just take them at face value. And that includes Bluff checks.


For example, if a child in a village tells you about the magical elves of Winterfeast who bring toys to all the good children each year, your Sense Motive check would reveal that they are being honest, even though they're really just relating a children's tale told and perpetuated by the adults of the village. The child is speaking the truth as he or she knows it, but it doesn't mean that the story is true.