[3.5] Sublime Chord + Master Spellthief interactions.

[GreenSerpent]

Hello,
I originally asked this question in the FAQ, but got no response and I'm in a moderate hurry to find out the answer to this.

If a Spellthief 1/Bard 9 has the feat Master Spellthief their Spellthief and Bard caster levels = 10 due to Master Spellthief, correct?

If that character then takes a level in Sublime Chord does the following happen?

Bard original caster level = 9
Spellthief original caster level = 1
Sublime Chord derived caster level = 10 (9 + 1)

BUT, quoting the Sublime Chord text:
"A sublime chord’s caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class."

Does that mean, according to the underlined text:

Sublime Chord derived caster level = 10
Therefore Bard & Spellthief derived caster levels = 10 each

Then Master Spellthief applies to give all classes a caster level of 10 + 10 + 10 = 30.

Is this correct?

[nedz]

Bard original caster level = 9
Spellthief original caster level = 1
Sublime Chord derived caster level = 10 (9 + 1)

BUT, quoting the Sublime Chord text:
"A sublime chord’s caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class."

Sublime chord level = 1 (Class level != Caster level)
Another is singular: Choose either Bard or Spelltheif
Answer is 10 or 11

[GreenSerpent]

Sublime chord level = 1 (Class level != Caster level)
Another is singular: Choose either Bard or Spelltheif
Answer is 10 or 11

I'm fairly sure Sublime Chord takes effect before Master Spellthief does.

So (looking back at my maths):
Spellthief base caster level = 1
Bard base caster level = 9
Sublime Chord caster level = 10

But due to the underlined text the caster level for all the other arcane caster classes = Sublime Chord level = 10.

Then Master Spellthief applies to add them together, giving a caster level of 30 for every class.

[Fouredged Sword]

You can apply effects in any order you wish, but an effect can only be applied once.

Both abilities count class levels, not caster level. It doesn't matter what your caster level in those classes are, just the number of class levels you have taken.

You are a spellthief 1 / Bard 9 / Sublime Chord 10

Master spellthief sets your caster level for bard and spellthief spells at 20 (1 caster level per class level, 20 levels in arcane casting classes)

Sublime chord does this to itself, and works the same way (1 CL per class level, 20 levels in arcane casting classes.)

[prufock]

Both abilities count class levels, not caster level. It doesn't matter what your caster level in those classes are, just the number of class levels you have taken.
This is correct by my reading as well. No caster level-looping tricks here, it's counting class levels (unlike Shooting Star Sword of the Arcane Order Mystic Ranger x/Wizard 1).

The Master Spellthief wording here takes priority because it's better (Sublime Chord requires you to pick one class). You add all your arcane spellcasting class class levels together to get your CL.

[nedz]

But due to the underlined text the caster level for all the other arcane caster classes = Sublime Chord level = 10.
Now read the next line

If she had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a sublime chord, she must choose to which class to add her sublime chord levels for the purpose of determining her sublime chord spellcaster level.
Also

Then Master Spellthief applies to add them together, giving a caster level of 30 for every class.


Your spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcaster classes (that is, levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief) for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal. For example, a 4th-level spellthief/4th-level wizard could steal spells of up to 4th level, as if he were an 8th-level spellthief. Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells.
The last sentence here is badly phrased, but it's clear, from the context, that they are talking about class levels.

[GreenSerpent]

Now read the next line

And? Bard caster level of 9, so you have a Sublime Chord caster level of 10 (9+1).

Then the underlined bit I pointed out specifically states that the caster level for spells from other arcane spellcasting classes (such as Bard and Spellthief) is equal to your Sublime Chord caster level. Ergo Bard and Spellthief caster level = 10.

So you're a Spellthief 1 with a caster level of 10, a Bard 9 with a caster level of 10, and a Sublime Chord 1 with a caster level of 10.

Regarding Master Spellthief, as it does not explicitly say class levels stack then it should default to caster level based on what is given in the text (as it doesn't talk about class level anywhere in the text, but talks about caster level instead, and RAI is ambiguous here).

EDIT: If I don't respond for a bit it's cause I'm playing League.

[nedz]

Then the underlined bit I pointed out specifically states that the caster level for spells from other arcane spellcasting classes (such as Bard and Spellthief) is equal to your Sublime Chord caster level. Ergo Bard and Spellthief caster level = 10.
No, because then you would be choosing TWO arcane casting classes to add your SC level to — AND it explicitly states that you must choose ONE.

So you're a Spellthief 1 with a caster level of 10, a Bard 9 with a caster level of 10, and a Sublime Chord 1 with a caster level of 10.
No, see above

Regarding Master Spellthief, as it does not explicitly say class levels stack then it should default to caster level based on what is given in the text (as it doesn't talk about class level anywhere in the text, but talks about caster level instead, and RAI is ambiguous here).
RAI is irrelevant. RAW is ambiguous if, and only if, you read the last sentence out of context. Within the context of the paragraph RAW is talking about Class Level.

[Sith_Happens]

Regarding Master Spellthief, as it does not explicitly say class levels stack then it should default to caster level based on what is given in the text (as it doesn't talk about class level anywhere in the text, but talks about caster level instead, and RAI is ambiguous here).

Master Spellthief refers to "levels of other arcane spellcasting classes." That means class levels.

[thethird]

You are looking for knight of the weave from champions of valor.

[GreenSerpent]

No, because then you would be choosing TWO arcane casting classes to add your SC level to — AND it explicitly states that you must choose ONE.

Did you even read the underlined quote? Because you're definitely missing the point there.

1 level of Sublime Chord + 9 levels of Bard = caster level of 10 for Sublime Chord.


"A sublime chord’s caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class."

both
her sublime chord spells
and
the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes


Bard is an arcane spellcaster class. So is Spellthief. Therefore you are casting your Bard and Spellthief spells at your Sublime Chord caster level, which is 10. Ergo your Bard and Spellthief caster levels are 10.

Regarding Master Spellthief, there is no mentions of class level and intent is ambiguous as I said - it talks about caster level in the rest of the feat, therefore it is a safe assumption that they are still talking about caster level in that sentence.

Also the minor fact that if it's based on class levels then a great deal of advice, builds, and handbooks the Playground has given/made/written over the past few years are invalid.

[GreenETC]

You are correct about the Sublime Chord interaction. The rest of these posters have an aversion to the CL shenanigans of Master Spellthief, and the last sentence is worded VERY poorly. So it works however you can get your DM to agree on, but either way the CL stacking would make you ridiculously strong.

[nedz]

Your basic mistake is to read individual sentences out of context.

Did you even read the underlined quote? Because you're definitely missing the point there.

1 level of Sublime Chord + 9 levels of Bard = caster level of 10 for Sublime Chord.

Bard is an arcane spellcaster class. So is Spellthief. Therefore you are casting your Bard and Spellthief spells at your Sublime Chord caster level, which is 10. Ergo your Bard and Spellthief caster levels are 10.


A sublime chord’s caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class. If she had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a sublime chord, she must choose to which class to add her sublime chord levels for the purpose of determining her sublime chord spellcaster level.
Here is the section you are underlining, but if you read the following sentence it says that you must choose ONE of your TWO arcane casting classes to add your SC levels too.

Regarding Master Spellthief, there is no mentions of class level and intent is ambiguous as I said - it talks about caster level in the rest of the feat, therefore it is a safe assumption that they are still talking about caster level in that sentence.
It is NOT a safe assumption. In the first sentence below it clearly talks about class levels, there is no ambiguity. The third sentence is less clear, but it does use the word also within the same paragraph, which implies class level also.

Your spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcaster classes (that is, levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief) for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal. For example, a 4th-level spellthief/4th-level wizard could steal spells of up to 4th level, as if he were an 8th-level spellthief. Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells.


Also the minor fact that if it's based on class levels then a great deal of advice, builds, and handbooks the Playground has given/made/written over the past few years are invalid.

Citations please ?

[Dread_Head]

A sublime chord’s caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class. If she had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a sublime chord, she must choose to which class to add her sublime chord levels for the purpose of determining her sublime chord spellcaster level.


Here is the section you are underlining, but if you read the following sentence it says that you must choose ONE of your TWO arcane casting classes to add your SC levels too.


And then from the first sentence your CL for SC spells and the spells gained from other arcane spellcasting classes (notice the plural) is set at the value of SC levels + those of ONE other arcane casting class which is just clarified in the following sentence.

Dunno much about Master Spellthief, it seems a little ambiguous to be honest.

[bekeleven]

You are correct about the Sublime Chord interaction. The rest of these posters have an aversion to the CL shenanigans of Master Spellthief, and the last sentence is worded VERY poorly. So it works however you can get your DM to agree on, but either way the CL stacking would make you ridiculously strong.

Check out the character recruitment forum sometime. Any gestalt game will have at least 2 applicants running Spellthief down one side with the feat.