UMD Crown of the White Ravens

[Darkweave31]

Can you fulfill the prerequisites for the maneuver granted by the Crown of the White Ravens with the emulate class feature part of the use magic device skill?

Example: Emulate the initiator level 5 and one maneuver requirements to get white raven tactics with a novice crown.

[Red Fel]

I would say no, and here's why.

Here's the appropriate text on Emulate a Class Feature:


Emulate a Class Feature

Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

The key thing is that the class feature emulated is required to use the item. For example, if you need to be a Wizard 7 to use a staff or something, (I don't play Wizards, so I don't know) UMD lets you emulate that class feature/level in order to use the staff.

A Crown of White Ravens has no prerequisites for use. Anyone can wear the Crown. It requires no activation; it merely requires a 24-hour attunement period. Rather, the maneuvers have prerequisites, as inherent to maneuvers. The prerequisite in question is not a class level or class feature, but a knowledge of other maneuvers. As such, it could not be emulated with UMD.

I would allow UMD to emulate IL, just as it could emulate CL; I would not allow it to emulate Maneuvers Known.

[Artillery]

You can pay the extra cost for magic items with multiple properties and get a crown that gives multiple maneuvers. Use the cost formula for items with multiple similar properties.

So 100% of price for the first maneuver, 75% of price for the second maneuver, if you want more the third plus maneuver would be 50% of its price.

A Novice Crown of White Raven that gives 2 maneuvers of 3rd level or lower would cost: 3000gp + 2250gp = 5250gp.

[Red Fel]

You can pay the extra cost for magic items with multiple properties and get a crown that gives multiple maneuvers. Use the cost formula for items with multiple similar properties.

So 100% of price for the first maneuver, 75% of price for the second maneuver, if you want more the third plus maneuver would be 50% of its price.

A Novice Crown of White Raven that gives 2 maneuvers of 3rd level or lower would cost: 3000gp + 2250gp = 5250gp.

This is actually an excellent point. If the Crown gives multiple maneuvers, a Crown could in theory be crafted with maneuvers of increasing level - thus, the lower-level maneuvers satisfy the prereqs of the higher-level maneuvers.

[Kioras]

Would a martial script of a first level manuever count as a pre-requisite for the higher level manuevers in a crown?

[Red Fel]

Would a martial script of a first level manuever count as a pre-requisite for the higher level manuevers in a crown?

I would say no, in much the same way that having a Scroll of Fireball isn't the same as being able to cast the spell Fireball.

As opposed to the Crown, which is the equivalent of an item that lets you cast Fireball as an X-level caster Y times per day.

[Icewraith]

You can pay the extra cost for magic items with multiple properties and get a crown that gives multiple maneuvers. Use the cost formula for items with multiple similar properties.

So 100% of price for the first maneuver, 75% of price for the second maneuver, if you want more the third plus maneuver would be 50% of its price.

A Novice Crown of White Raven that gives 2 maneuvers of 3rd level or lower would cost: 3000gp + 2250gp = 5250gp.

Multiple properties that don't take up space on a character's body. That formula's fine for staffs, but all of the maneuver-granting items do take up body slots. You probably should use the combining slotted items rules, so you get the highest cost item at full price and each additional maneuver the item grants costs an extra 50%.

Also note that, unlike the pearl of power, there's no multiple-maneuver granting item listed in the book. You could probably combine the effects at different strengths- a crown of white ravens that grants one maneuver up to 9th, one up to 6th, and one up to 3rd would be cost 9th + 1.5x(cost 6th+cost 3rd). You could make that argument in order to get a skeptical DM to let you stack multiple maneuvers at the same strength, since you're still paying the cost but just substituting in different variables.

While the concept of an item that lets you master a discipline (say it grants two 3rd, two 6th, and one 9th maneuver) is cool, I don't know if I'd allow such items to be made. Who wouldn't pay an extra 18k (4 3rd level maneuvers +50% stacking penalty) to let their 9th-granting Iron Heart vest actually let them use Strike of Perfect Clarity?

[Darkweave31]

I would say no, and here's why.

Here's the appropriate text on Emulate a Class Feature:



The key thing is that the class feature emulated is required to use the item. For example, if you need to be a Wizard 7 to use a staff or something, (I don't play Wizards, so I don't know) UMD lets you emulate that class feature/level in order to use the staff.

A Crown of White Ravens has no prerequisites for use. Anyone can wear the Crown. It requires no activation; it merely requires a 24-hour attunement period. Rather, the maneuvers have prerequisites, as inherent to maneuvers. The prerequisite in question is not a class level or class feature, but a knowledge of other maneuvers. As such, it could not be emulated with UMD.

I would allow UMD to emulate IL, just as it could emulate CL; I would not allow it to emulate Maneuvers Known.

Hmmmm... UMD can emulate having a spell list in order to use a scroll, wand, or staff. So I'm not sure why you couldn't use it to emulate knowing maneuvers.

[Red Fel]

Hmmmm... UMD can emulate having a spell list in order to use a scroll, wand, or staff. So I'm not sure why you couldn't use it to emulate knowing maneuvers.

I would argue that "having a general spell list" (a class feature) is distinct from knowing a specific maneuver or category of maneuvers.

But even assuming for sake of argument that they are the same, and that you could trick a magic device into thinking you had maneuvers, UMD applies to triggering the item. The item in question - a Crown of White Ravens - does not need to be triggered. It does not need to be activated. Further, the Crown itself can be used by any character, regardless of class, race, or other ability (provided they have a slot on which to wear it). Its power is automatic. It's like a Cloak of Resistance - its bonus is automatic, and requires no UMD check to use.

It's not the Crown that has the requirements, but the maneuvers. For example, let's say a spell - call it Fist of Smashery - requires Strength of 13+ to cast, because magic. Could you use UMD on a Wand of Fist of Smashery? Yes, because UMD allows you to trick the wand into thinking you have the right ability score. Could you add the spell to your list of Spells Known? Probably.

But could you cast it, absent a wand or scroll, without the requisite Strength? No, and UMD won't change that, because the spell isn't a wand, staff, or scroll - it's a spell, not a device.

The same logic applies to the Crown. The Crown puts the maneuvers on your list of Maneuvers Known, but it doesn't give you the prereqs to use them. That's the key point.

You're not activating a Crown of White Ravens. UMD does not apply. You're not interacting with the Crown in any way - put it on, wait 24 hours, and you get Maneuvers Known. You're interacting with the maneuvers, not the Crown, and maneuvers - like spells - can't be tricked with UMD.

[Darkweave31]

So let me see if I get the RAW basis of your argument since a lot of what you're saying is confusing me further...

UMD, when emulating a class feature, only applies to items that have a prerequisite for activation. The prerequisites for any maneuver it grants do not count as prerequisites for activating the item.

Therefor, the crown does not have any prerequisites for activation and UMD does not apply.

Is this an accurate summary or did I miss what you were trying to say?

[Telok]

Actually if the crown has as many maneuvers in it as the maneuvers have prerequsites then the maneuvers should auto-qualify for each other. I think. I'm not absolutely certain.

Also using a script should work as a temporary measure. The script gives you the ability to use it's maneuver for a limited time. Since you know the maneuver during that period of time it should let you qualify for a crown maneuver for as long as you have the script maneuver readied and unused.

[lsfreak]

I'm honestly not even sure you need the prereq maneuvers for the Crown. Because they're prereqs to learn the maneuver, and you never learn it. You're just using it from an item (this distinction becomes important when you can lose the prereqs due to retraining a maneuver at level 4/6/8/10/etc but still keep, and are able to use, the maneuver in question). While the item specifically calls out that you need the prereq, the only prereqs that exist in the rules are having a high enough initiator level. If you read it to mean the prereqs listed per maneuver, then it's referencing a non-existent rule and can safely be ignored.

[Artillery]

When you have a maneuver from your class after you have it it counts as a maneuver of the same discipline. That is why if you trade out the maneuver you use as a prerequisite for Iron Heart surge, Iron Heart surge will cause you to meet that prereq, its is one maneuver from Iron Heart.

Using ToB Discipline items to get simple things when your already a martial initiator is great. Getting Diamond Mind save replacers on a crusader. Getting an item with a Devoted Spirit Maneuver and Thicket of Blades for a AoO build.


Anyone can wear a crown of White Ravens, but to gain any benefit from it, a wearer must meet the prerequisite of the desired maneuver.

[Red Fel]

So let me see if I get the RAW basis of your argument since a lot of what you're saying is confusing me further...

UMD, when emulating a class feature, only applies to items that have a prerequisite for activation. The prerequisites for any maneuver it grants do not count as prerequisites for activating the item.

Therefor, the crown does not have any prerequisites for activation and UMD does not apply.

Is this an accurate summary or did I miss what you were trying to say?

In essence, yes. Sorry if I was unclear; it was late and my brain was, to use the clinical term, ucky.

UMD applies to activating a magic item. A Crown of White Ravens, like a Cloak of Resistance, does not require activation. But whereas a Cloak of Resistance passively adds a bonus to saving throws, a Crown of White Ravens passively adds maneuvers to your Maneuvers Known list.

A Maneuvers Known list, like a Spells Known list, cannot be tricked by UMD; if you can't use a spell on your list, you can't use that spell. UMD doesn't let you use a spell on your list you otherwise could not use. Same with maneuvers; if you fail to meet the prereqs of the maneuver, you can't use the maneuver, even with UMD.

Short version, as you said: "Therefor, the crown does not have any prerequisites for activation and UMD does not apply."

[Segev]

Honestly, I've never quite gotten how the Crown works, mechanically, even before we get to the OP's question. When is it determined what maneuver it grants its wearer? Is a Crown of the White Ravens created with a specific maneuver in it? Is it set after the 24-hour attunement period? Is it set when you refresh your maneuvers? I don't think the item ever specifies.

And it makes a pretty big difference; are all Crowns of the White Raven (of the same "type" such as "novice") identical, or do they have different maneuvers in them?

[Rijan_Sai]

Honestly, I've never quite gotten how the Crown works, mechanically, even before we get to the OP's question. When is it determined what maneuver it grants its wearer? Is a Crown of the White Ravens created with a specific maneuver in it? Is it set after the 24-hour attunement period? Is it set when you refresh your maneuvers? I don't think the item ever specifies.

And it makes a pretty big difference; are all Crowns of the White Raven (of the same "type" such as "novice") identical, or do they have different maneuvers in them?


A person who has worn a crown of White Ravens for [REDACTED] gains the use of a single White Raven maneuver for which he meets the prerequisite. The maneuver can be of a martial adept level up to the highest level the item grants.
(Redacted for Fair Use vs. Mechanics)

The maneuver you get is selected after wearing the crown (or other discipline item) for the specified time. You must meet the prerequisites for the maneuver at that time as well.

Basically, the bolded portion of your quote is correct.

Also, while it's not "official" and thus not always an option, the Unofficial Errata has this to say about the crown:

Page 149 - Crown of White Ravens [Addition]
After the last sentence in the Effect paragraph, add "Stances cannot be contained in this item. The maneuver is added to your list of maneuvers known for the purposes of readying maneuvers, but not meeting prerequisites of feats, prestige classes, magic items, maneuvers, or any other effect that requires maneuvers known. The maneuver must be readied as normal. You must meet all requirements for the maneuver in order to benefit from this item, including having a high enough initiator level to actually learn the maneuver."
If you attempt combine two or more Crowns into the same item (see the Dungeon Master's Guide, page 282), each crown involved must be of a different type (Novice, Scholar, Master), and must contain a different maneuver in each instance. You cannot, for example, combine three Crowns that each contain the Leading the Attack strike, but you could combine three crowns that contain Leading the Attack, White Raven Tactics, and White Raven Hammer.

The above rules apply to the variants of the Crown of White Ravens.

[herrhauptmann]

(Redacted for Fair Use vs. Mechanics)

The maneuver you get is selected after wearing the crown (or other discipline item) for the specified time. You must meet the prerequisites for the maneuver at that time as well.

Basically, the bolded portion of your quote is correct.

Also, while it's not "official" and thus not always an option, the Unofficial Errata has this to say about the crown:

I was always under the impression the maneuver was chosen at construction.
The way some people want custom use-activated gloves of True Strike, but when the player dies, another character can't grab the gloves and have them be custom use-activated Shocking Grasp.
(Bad example since they're different schools. Pretend I mentioned 2 spells from the same school and level that were both touch-range or thematic to hands)