Which is technically better?

[TabletopGamer]

I am sure this has been done before but a google search provided no real leads that where not how to nerf the classes themselves.

Which is the better overall class? Which has better BAB, Better Saves, Better Combat utility, Better Out of Combat utility, Better Spell List, etc.

Which is the generally better class out of the Cleric, Wizard, or Druid.
Now for sh*ts and giggles I am not above asking the same for the Archivist or the Witch (PF) into this as well, but mostly asking about the core 3.
But I have heard Archivist can somehow gain all spells possible.

[AMFV]

I am sure this has been done before but a google search provided no real leads that where not how to nerf the classes themselves.

Which is the better overall class? Which has better BAB, Better Saves, Better Combat utility, Better Out of Combat utility, Better Spell List, etc.

Which is the generally better class out of the Cleric, Wizard, or Druid.
Now for sh*ts and giggles I am not above asking the same for the Archivist or the Witch (PF) into this as well, but mostly asking about the core 3.
But I have heard Archivist can somehow gain all spells possible.

The Archivist, because they can gain all spells, or very nearly all spells, depending on table. After that it gets kind of muddied. I'm not familiar with the PF class.

To be honest, they're all gamebreakingly powerful, any wizard, cleric, druid, or archivist that isn't breaking the game is pulling punches, and that's okay. But in the vast majority of games you'd never get to see a direct comparison between them at least not a workable one since they're already exceeding the power level as presented in the game.

[HC Rainbow]

I am sure this has been done before but a google search provided no real leads that where not how to nerf the classes themselves.

Which is the better overall class? Which has better BAB, Better Saves, Better Combat utility, Better Out of Combat utility, Better Spell List, etc.

Which is the generally better class out of the Cleric, Wizard, or Druid.
Now for sh*ts and giggles I am not above asking the same for the Archivist or the Witch (PF) into this as well, but mostly asking about the core 3.
But I have heard Archivist can somehow gain all spells possible.

I dont know about PF, but for 3.5 a druid tends to run better than both wizards and clerics as a whole.

Access to all spells, Great offensive and defensive spells, wildshape for hardcore melee fighting, incredibly SAD (single ability dependent), plus the idea of shaping into a T-Rex that shoots lightning is just too amazing to question.

That being said, Clerics and wizards are no pushover, but I'd have to say that Druids have a better blend all together than the other two.

[nedz]

This (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=658) should answer most of your questions.

[TabletopGamer]

I am not exactly asking why a class is in its Tier. All the classes I mentioned are marked as Tier 1s. I know why they are Tier 1.

I am asking which is generally considered better overall.
Someone mentioned the Druid and someone mentioned the Archivist.

Aside from Spell list which both have a great deal of power with it seems the Druid has the better BAB and so forth. I am just curious because they are all overpowered and game breaking on their own but under the examples listed which has the better score.

[HC Rainbow]

I am not exactly asking why a class is in its Tier. All the classes I mentioned are marked as Tier 1s. I know why they are Tier 1.

I am asking which is generally considered better overall.
Someone mentioned the Druid and someone mentioned the Archivist.

Aside from Spell list which both have a great deal of power with it seems the Druid has the better BAB and so forth. I am just curious because they are all overpowered and game breaking on their own but under the examples listed which has the better score.

3.5e Artificer.

Checkmate.

[Fouredged Sword]

They all have about the same power level. Druids are the easiest out of the box. Clerics follow them, and wizards are least user friendly.

All of them have "Cast X spell, solve all problems" in the form of spells. Really anything past that is academic.

[Oko and Qailee]

Which is the generally better class out of the Cleric, Wizard, or Druid.
Now for sh*ts and giggles I am not above asking the same for the Archivist or the Witch (PF) into this as well, but mostly asking about the core 3.
But I have heard Archivist can somehow gain all spells possible.

Cleric, Wizard and Druid are all gamebreaking OP. Technically, by level 20, Druid is less powerful than the other two because of no Miracle/Wish.

Getting all spells possible doesn't make you better. All you need to do is be able to access the spells necessary to become arbitrarily powerful, both Wizards and Clerics can do this. If you can pun-pun then you can already do everything.


The Archivist, because they can gain all spells, or very nearly all spells, depending on table. After that it gets kind of muddied. I'm not familiar with the PF class.


Archivist is negligible better. Technically Wizard, Cleric, archivist are all capable of pun-punning whenever they want. Changing a clerics domains is only a spell away, and with Contemplative you can have up to 4 domains. With right domain selection you can have Wish, Shapechange, Time Stop, etc. Whatever you want.


I dont know about PF, but for 3.5 a druid tends to run better than both wizards and clerics as a whole.

That being said, Clerics and wizards are no pushover, but I'd have to say that Druids have a better blend all together than the other two.

Incorrect, the lack of Wish or Miracle makes the Druid worse than cleric or Wizard. They also can't get anyspell. Arcane spells are the best, a wizard and cleric can access them whenever they want really, a druid can't.

Druids are better at lower optimization and lower levels. But at a certain point Spells are > everything, and the better spell selection of both Wizards and Clerics are better than that of a druid.



BASICALLY. Archivist = Wizard = Cleric >(marginally) Druid. Because when you can do LITERALLY ANYTHING it doesn't matter that supposedly one class has more spells

Edit/note: Correction, a Cloistered Cleric + Contemplative can have 5 domains, thanks to Substitute Domain, these 5 domains can be anything.

[Drachasor]

I'd agree with Druid, then Cleric, then Wizard as far as being easiest to play. That's the order of the optimization floors, roughly speaking. The order is perhaps the other way around if you are talking about what is potentially the most powerful, but that's a lot harder to achieve and more likely to run afoul of DM intervention. Also, any real difference here is going to happen towards 7+ level spells, so that's pretty late into the game. A lot of groups never get that far.

Personally, I find the Druid the most fun to play...once it gets wildshape.

[Oko and Qailee]

I'd agree with Druid, then Cleric, then Wizard as far as being easiest to play. That's the order of the optimization floors, roughly speaking. The order is perhaps the other way around if you are talking about what is potentially the most powerful, but that's a lot harder to achieve and more likely to run afoul of DM intervention. Also, any real difference here is going to happen towards 7+ level spells, so that's pretty late into the game.

Personally, I find the Druid the most fun to play...once it gets wildshape.

Druid is certainly the most powerful at lower optimization, because thats when wildshape and the animal companion actually matter.

[jaydubs]

I would argue the cleric is actually the easiest to play if you're new. Worst case scenario, if you picked terrible spells, you can convert them all into healing. New player parties often just expect clerics to be healbots anyway.

The wizard doesn't have that option. Bad spell choice can leave the wizard without anything to do. And, they don't actually have the entire spell list to start with, so they have to actively go out and acquire useful spells.

While the druid can convert spells into SNA, the class has a lot of book keeping and weird rules for new players. Having to know the stats of not just themselves, but their animal companion, wild shape forms and rules, and various summons is more than new players usually like to work with.

Easiest to accidentally unbalance vs other party members? Yeah, probably the druid then. But easiest to play for new players? Cleric.

[Fax Celestis]

They are all so good it doesn't matter.

If you're playing Hearts, and you have the 456♦, the lead card is the J♦, and the other two cards on the table are the Q♠ and the 3♥, you can play any of those cards and still not take the hand. Functionally, they might as well all be the 4♦, because comparatively the difference in value between the cards is irrelevant. They are all equally excellent plays.

[Greenish]

Which has better BAB, Better Saves, Better Combat utility, Better Out of Combat utility, Better Spell List, etc.Druid has the best chassis, and hands down the best class features (not counting casting). Cleric has far better BAB, saves, HD, weapon and armour proficiencies than wizard. Wizard has a chassis that's only barely above commoner, and class features are sparse (and potentially harmful).

Which is the better overall class?A matter of preference.

[Draz74]

Technically, by level 20, Druid is less powerful than the other two because of no Miracle/WishGate.

Fixed that for you. (Wish isn't really a great spell.)

And yeah, the answer to the original question completely depends on what Level and what optimization level are being considered. At mid-optimization, Druid tends to be the best except maybe at very high levels. At ultra-optimization, Wizard seems to be the favorite at most levels, and is definitely the best at Level 1 (sell spellbook, engage in WBL shenanigans).

[Kelb_Panthera]

The big six, roughly in order of overall power, are;

Artificer: I can do -anything- if I have the gold and the time, period.
Archivist: I can learn most of the spells in the game thanks to being able to learn spells from domains. I can also nab a lot of good ones at lower than normal levels.
Wizard: I have the best native spell list in the game.
Cleric: I have the next best spell list in the game and can get a lot of good stuff from domains and/or anyspell.
Druid: My primary class features are the most powerful and versatile the game has and my spell list is nothing to sneeze at.
Erudite: the psion/wilder list isn't the most impressive power list, but it still has everything you could need and I can get the whole thing.

[Draz74]

Erudite: the psion/wilder list isn't the most impressive power list, but it still has everything you could need and I can get the whole thing.[/list]

Well, often when people include the Erudite as one of the Tier 1 classes, they're assuming the Spell-To-Power ACF is allowed. Which bumps the Erudite up to either first or second place on this list.

[Slipperychicken]

I would want to play a Wizard, since I could easily get them spontaneously casting every worthwhile spell on their class list (which saves me a lot of cognitive resources OOC, making it very easy to play since it's basically Schrodinger's Wizard). This is mostly through feats. If you want a full 20-level build (or just a list of what I'd use), just ask.

[TabletopGamer]

I am assuming you mean Spell mastery and the other oneI forget the name of but it lets you spontaneously cast a single spell of your spell mastery spells.

[Spore]

I feel it's the Wizard. The spell array is so fricking wide and liberal to interpret. A DM can really screw a cleric, and the Druid has the worst spell list of the three.

[LordAshenshield]

DMs can screw wizards easily too restrict spellbook drops and scrolls

[nedz]

It depends upon a number of things:
Level of play
Optimisation

At low to medium levels it's probably the Druid, though you can do a lot with Clerics; Clerics do require more OP-Fu though.

At high levels it's the Wizard, though Clerics do give them a run for their money.

It's hard to say when Wizard overtakes the other two mainly because Wizards and Clerics are more likely to PrC out. All three have OP PrCs available.

In terms of Optimisation
Druid has the highest floor, even if you choose poor spells you are still a reasonable Fighter. A Wizard with poor spells is just an eccentric commoner.

[Slipperychicken]

I am assuming you mean Spell mastery and the other oneI forget the name of but it lets you spontaneously cast a single spell of your spell mastery spells.

There's a lot more to it than that. I'll post a build once I get back home.

[Elderand]

The big six, roughly in order of overall power, are;

Artificer: I can do -anything- if I have the gold and the time, period.
Archivist: I can learn most of the spells in the game thanks to being able to learn spells from domains. I can also nab a lot of good ones at lower than normal levels.
Wizard: I have the best native spell list in the game.
Cleric: I have the next best spell list in the game and can get a lot of good stuff from domains and/or anyspell.
Druid: My primary class features are the most powerful and versatile the game has and my spell list is nothing to sneeze at.
Erudite: the psion/wilder list isn't the most impressive power list, but it still has everything you could need and I can get the whole thing.

Small addendum, Spell to power erudite trumps all

[Kelb_Panthera]

Small addendum, Spell to power erudite trumps all

Yeah, but that's just a little blurb in the erudite proper's adaptation section. The standard erudite is an actual printed class, rather than just a suggestion, even if it is printed in the book which shall not be named.

As you say though, -if- it's allowed the StP erudite is so much more versatile and powerful than any of the others that it really deserves to be T0 rather than T1.

[Emperor Tippy]

Small addendum, Spell to power erudite trumps all

No, it's strictly worse than a straight Psion. All Spell to Power Erudite is good for is existing so that you can make an Ice Assassin of it to get all of the Arcane and Divine spells in the game onto your list of powers known via Psychic Chiguery.

You never actually want to play a StP Erudite. :smallwink:

[CombatOwl]

Which is the generally better class out of the Cleric, Wizard, or Druid.

Depends on what you're trying to do. Druids are better from level 1-15, but lose out slightly on late game spells. Wizards dominate 8th and 9th level spells, but are much worse on the way to getting there. Clerics are by far the best at optimizing for specific tricks because of a combination of good feats, good spells, selectable domain abilities, and an amazing spell list.

As an aside, metamagic-focused sorcerers can fairly reliably outclass wizards in most situations. You have to be very picky about spells (everything needs multiple uses and most things should combine well with good metamagic feats), but you can have tier 1 spell versatility at any given moment and a lot more uses per day of it. Spontaneous casting really is a lot better in actual play if you're careful about spell selection.


Now for sh*ts and giggles I am not above asking the same for the Archivist or the Witch (PF) into this as well, but mostly asking about the core 3.
But I have heard Archivist can somehow gain all spells possible.

There is a lot of bull**** with the archivist, but mainly when used in conjunction with other classes that prioritize int. The main use I've seen for them is building an SAD Mystic Theurge. Witches aren't even in the same league as any of the aforementioned options.

[Elderand]

No, it's strictly worse than a straight Psion. All Spell to Power Erudite is good for is existing so that you can make an Ice Assassin of it to get all of the Arcane and Divine spells in the game onto your list of powers known via Psychic Chiguery.

You never actually want to play a StP Erudite. :smallwink:

Barring the existence of STP erudite a psion is just a psion.
Barring the existence of Psion an STP erudite is still a god.

So no, it's not strictly worse than a straight psion.

A psion is strictly worse than an stp erudite, both together are better than each individually.

[Emperor Tippy]

Barring the existence of STP erudite a psion is just a psion.
Barring the existence of Psion an STP erudite is still a god.

So no, it's not strictly worse than a straight psion.

A psion is strictly worse than an stp erudite, both together are better than each individually.

Erudite is an alternate class feature/variant for the Psion. And Spell to Power is an alternate class feature/variant for the Erudite.

Without the Psion there is no StP Erudite while without the StP Erudite the Psion is still a solid tier 1 (as using nothing but Core+XPH it can get every power onto its list of Powers Known).

Psion becomes Tier 0 when StP Erudites exist.

[Elderand]

Erudite is an alternate class feature/variant for the Psion. And Spell to Power is an alternate class feature/variant for the Erudite.

Without the Psion there is no StP Erudite while without the StP Erudite the Psion is still a solid tier 1 (as using nothing but Core+XPH it can get every power onto its list of Powers Known).

Psion becomes Tier 0 when StP Erudites exist.

Your logic is simply wrong, yes erudite is a variant of the psion that by no mean imply the psion as is has to exist in any given gameworld for erudite to exist.

It is entirely possible to have games that include erudite but doesn't not include psion at all.

If erudite was a prc that could only be entered by starting out as a psion then you would have a point. But it's not, so you don't.

Worse the erudite is variant in name only. The only time the class mention psion is in the blurb to describe it. None of it's mechanic rely on having access to the psion class.

Compare and contrast to the class variants presented in unearthed arcana which only give you the rules for what is changed compared to the standard class.

You can't play an unearthed arcana class variant whitout access to the corresponding normal class.

It is perfectly possible to play an erudite whitout ever having to even glance at the normal psion.

[EugeneVoid]

Psionic Artificer

Craft that magic mantle... mmmmhhh (<I'm not sure how these work, btw)

[eggynack]

At early to mid level, meaning until about level 10 or 11, the druid spell list is roughly competitive with the wizard's. On top of that, they get superior class features like the animal companion and wild shape. Thus, at those early levels, druid is likely the best class of the three. However, after around that point, the druid list begins to diminish in quality relative to the other lists. Thus, they become the inferior class later on. Clerical power is largely based on domain choice, though they tend to be alike to the wizard. In any case, the upshot of the situation is that there is no technically better class. Sometimes druids are the best, and sometimes wizards are the best, and sometimes clerics are the best. No one really cares that you have a fleshraker ready to eat face at level twenty, but at level four that fleshraker is one of the most powerful things out there.

[Hurnn]

I Think Druid plays and levels better than the other 2 and is barely out-shined by the cleric in over all power but at 17-20 the wizard is hands down god mode: (Shapechange). lol I'm a solar, not wait a balor, nope pit feind, not wait solar again.

[Hurnn]

Fixed that for you. (Wish isn't really a great spell.)

And yeah, the answer to the original question completely depends on what Level and what optimization level are being considered. At mid-optimization, Druid tends to be the best except maybe at very high levels. At ultra-optimization, Wizard seems to be the favorite at most levels, and is definitely the best at Level 1 (sell spellbook, engage in WBL shenanigans).

Actually her original premise and your "fix" are both wrong, druids can shapechange into a form that has either or both as either an su or ex.

[Chronos]

I would argue that the druid is the best, because there is no situation whatsoever where it's bad. Inexperienced player who doesn't know anything about optimization and just picks what looks cool? Sure, all the best spells look cool, and your animal companion is a wolf. Low levels where a single lucky crit will kill anyone? Not a problem, it just killed said wolf, and you can get a new one tomorrow. Get blindsided by a situation and find you've prepared the wrong spells? I've yet to find a situation for which there isn't some useful SNA or another. Wizard, Cleric, Archivist, even Tippy Psion can sometimes be screwed, but not the druid.

Oh, and Tippy, isn't an StP Erudite better than a Psion at low levels where Ice Assassin and Psionic Chiurgery aren't yet available?

[Rubik]

Oh, and Tippy, isn't an StP Erudite better than a Psion at low levels where Ice Assassin and Psionic Chiurgery aren't yet available?You mean where the erudite can only manifest 1-2 different powers every day vs the psions 3-5?

[Chronos]

But the erudite is still choosing his powers from a much larger list, and can change them every day.

[Rubik]

But the erudite is still choosing his powers from a much larger list, and can change them every day.Once Psychic Reformation hits the scene, a psion can learn anything he wants in one round using the Linked Power metapsionic feat along with Expanded Knowledge for whatever arcane spell he wants (since StP erudites learn arcane spells as psionic powers, which qualify for E.K.).

[LordAshenshield]

But that does not automatically mean a psion can learn all arcane spells. And yes 1-5 are hard for even a StP Erudite but when 3rd level powers open up you can use 3 of each level a day which is better then some full casters

[Rubik]

But that does not automatically mean a psion can learn all arcane spells. And yes 1-5 are hard for even a StP Erudite but when 3rd level powers open up you can use 3 of each level a day which is better then some full castersWith a thought bottle, some time, and a pair of psions with access to Psychic Chirurgery, they could have everything but 9ths prior to epic fairly easily, and access to the Magic Mantle and Sanctum Spell or Versatile Spellcaster would grant 9ths by 17th level. There's a type of dragon in Eberron that gains all druid spells as arcane spells (cast as a sorcerer), which a StP erudite can then take for himself, meaning they can do this with druid spells. Any wizard or sorcerer/rainbow servant or standard dragon with spellcasting ability allows them to gain cleric spells. Prestige bard allows for bard spells. Prestige paladin and ranger combined with various means of turning divine spells into arcane spells allow for paladin and ranger spells. I'm sure there's a way for wu jen spells and similar, even barring spell/power research, as well.

[LordAshenshield]

By psions did you mean erudite? Because regulat psion has no access to magic mantle.

[Rubik]

By psions did you mean erudite? Because regulat psion has no access to magic mantle.Ah. Right. Well, a single- (or possibly double-) level dip in one of the classes that does provide it will give you 9ths at 18 (or 19, depending). Ardent, mantled wilder (which has the happy side effect of effectively boosting your manifester level by one when wild surging, so no MLs are lost), mantled (psychic) warrior, or divine mind will all give you access to it, which is totally worth access to all 9th level spells and powers in the game. Hooray!

[Emperor Tippy]

By psions did you mean erudite? Because regulat psion has no access to magic mantle.

One level Ardent dip. Highly useful to pretty much any psionic character that wants to pull off shenanigans.

[Morphie]

I would say it is the druid, not because of the later levels, but mainly because it's survivability rate on the first levels. It has medium hitdice, can wear armors, it is a full caster and it also has the animal companion that serves as a meatshield early on. If you add in the summons this can go up, but just looking at the stock package, the druid starts strong and finishes still in the frontline, with good spells and the wildshape feature. And it is easy to play without screwing it up.

[Slipperychicken]

This is a Wizard build I came up with for a balance of ease-of-use, flexibility, and power so that a player can curbstomp any challenge by simply always having the right spell, without needing to prepare it in advance. The idea is to combine various ways to get spontaneous casting on a Wizard with the absolutely massive sorc/wiz list. I'll probably improve it later on, since there are still 5-6 feats and lots of levels open, allowing for plenty of additional shenanigans and PrCs.

The current build is a character who can always cast exactly the spell he needs. Since it doesn't need to prepare very much at all, this build might be useful for internet arguments which contain accusations like "Oh, there's no way a Wizard would have prepared Analyze Portal that day, so he'd lose".

The spells which this wizard would have to memorize would likely be generally-useful spells and buffs, which he would expect to need every day. His numerous spontaneous castings would largely remove the need for a player to put serious thought into his memorization list. All the player needs to do is know which of his spells known will solve the problem.


I am assuming you mean Spell mastery and the other oneI forget the name of but it lets you spontaneously cast a single spell of your spell mastery spells.


There's a lot more to it than that.

THE SPONTANEOUS WIZARD (or “Schrodinger's Wizard”)
By Slipperychicken
Race: Human (or any bonus feat race, like Strongheart Halfling)
Class: Generalist Wizard7/Arcane Devotee2*/Wizard+X
Ability priorities: Int>Cha>Con>Dex>Wis>Str

*I only took the second level of Arcane Devotee to get that point of BAB back. Feel free to drop it if you want your Wizard bonus feats earlier, or if you want to enter a PrC at level 9.

ACFs:

Domain Wizard (requires generalist, gets you a free spell/day for each spell level. This build was a generalist anyway, so it's a no-brainer. As for the domain, I recommend Conuration or Transmutation.)
Spontaneous Divination (Trades out 5th level Wizard bonus feat to cast all known Divination spells spontaneously)
Eidetic Spellcaster (Dragon Magazine #354, trades out Scribe Scroll and your Familiar. It means that you don't need a spellbook. Not crucial to the trick, but it means you don't have to worry about spellbook protection, making this build easier to use in practice. If you need to learn every spell in the game and take advantage of Blessed Books, I think you still can because the ACF doesn't stop you from using spellbooks normally.)

{table=head]ECL|LEVEL| FEATS | OTHER
1| Wiz 1|

Spell Mastery (prerequisite for Uncanny Forethought)
Uncanny Forethought (reserve Int mod of spells/day, cast as Full-Round action at -2 CL)
|
2| Wiz 2|
3| Wiz 3|Nexus Method (convert any spell into a SM of that level)|
4| Wiz 4|
5| Wiz 5| |Spontaneous Divination (convert any spell to any known Divination)
6| Wiz 6|Enlarge Spell (Prerequisite for Arcane Devotee)
7| Wiz 7|
8| ArcDev1| |-Reach Of The Holy (1 + Cha spontaneous castings/day). Arcane Devotee needs: 5 ranks Know (Religion), 8 Spellcraft, Enlarge spell, and ability to cast 4th level arcane spells to enter.
9| ArcDev2|Alacritous Cogitation (optional)
10| Wiz 8|
11| Wiz 9|
12| Wiz 10| [feat], [Wizard Bonus Feat]
13| Wiz 11|
14| Wiz 12|
15| Wiz 13| [feat]
16| Wiz 14|
17| Wiz 15| [Wizard Bonus Feat]
18| Wiz 16| [feat]
19| Wiz 17|
20| Wiz 18|
21| Wiz 19| Epic Spellcasting (Duh)
[/table]

NOTES

The trick starts at level 1, and is more or less complete by level 8. After that, feel free to add whatever you want. Also, feel free to delay/drop Alacritous Cogitation (it's not very important) if you'd like to get into a second PrC at 9th level.

Total spontaneous Castings per day
Convert [Cha mod+1] prepared spells into any spell of your choosing (Enlarged for free)
Leave [Int mod+1] spell slots open, spontaneously cast any known spell out of them as a Full-round action.
Convert any prepared spell into a Divination spell of that level or lower
Convert any prepared spell into a Summon Monster of that level or lower.


To take full advantage of these spontaneous castings, this build will want to learn as many spells as it can (possibly with the aid of Blessed Books and 2 levels in Geometer). And then laugh at Sorcerers. A lot.