[M&M3e] Continuous Powers + Alternate Effect

[Khatoblepas]

I've been playing in an M&M game recently, and one of the players is playing a "reality warper" type, who uses a lot of effects within a single array.

But during the combat, she managed to have three effects ongoing at once (For completion's sake: Full nullify, Affliction (snare), and Summon Minion), these being in her large array:

Reality Warping
- AE: Nullify (Continuous)
- AE: Affliction (Continuous)
- AE: Summon (Continuous)

The duration on these effects were all Continuous, which she and the GM argue that means that she can use other powers while that power is going on, and she has to switch back to the power to turn it off.

This seems a bit suspicious to me, as this means that you can have a variety of simultaneous effects for ludicrously cheap prices. I believe that the advantage of Continuous is that you don't need to concentrate on it or expend any effort to continue the effect, but the power still needs to be invested in in order for it to continue to work.

So the question is: What happens when you switch away from a Continuous Effect to another effect in the same array? I can't find any rules text to go either way.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The text of the Alternate Effect modifier says

Alternate Effects cannot be used or maintained at the same time as other Alternates in the same array; they are mutually exclusive.
That seems fairly solid to me.

[Beleriphon]

I've been playing in an M&M game recently, and one of the players is playing a "reality warper" type, who uses a lot of effects within a single array.

But during the combat, she managed to have three effects ongoing at once (For completion's sake: Full nullify, Affliction (snare), and Summon Minion), these being in her large array:

Reality Warping
- AE: Nullify (Continuous)
- AE: Affliction (Continuous)
- AE: Summon (Continuous)

The duration on these effects were all Continuous, which she and the GM argue that means that she can use other powers while that power is going on, and she has to switch back to the power to turn it off.

The text on Alternate Effects is pretty clear. As are continuous effects. In essence the rules are that a power turns off when another one in the same array is turned "on".


This seems a bit suspicious to me, as this means that you can have a variety of simultaneous effects for ludicrously cheap prices. I believe that the advantage of Continuous is that you don't need to concentrate on it or expend any effort to continue the effect, but the power still needs to be invested in in order for it to continue to work.

So the question is: What happens when you switch away from a Continuous Effect to another effect in the same array? I can't find any rules text to go either way.

It turns off. AEs are pretty simple.

Quote the Open Content Portion of M&M3E


his modifier allows you to “swap-out” the effect for an entire other, alternate, effect! For example, a Damage effect with the descriptor of “laser” might have a visual Dazzle as an Alternate Effect: the same light beam can be used to damage or blind a target, just not both at once. Think of Alternate Effects as different “settings” for a power. (For combinations of effects that work simultaneously, see the Linked modifier in this section.) A set of Alternate Effects is called an array.

An Alternate Effect can have any rank, or combination of modifiers. Alternate Effects may also have different descriptors, usually thematically linked, within reason. This allows you to have two versions of a Damage effect, for example: such as a fire blast and an ice blast. Permanent effects cannot have Alternate Effects, nor can they be Alternate Effects (since they can’t be turned on and off).

An Alternate Effect can have a total cost in character points no greater than the primary effect. So a rank 10 primary effect costing 2 points per rank, for a total of 20, can have any Alternate Effect with a cost of 20 character points or less. This cost does not include the cost of the Alternate Effect modifier itself. So if the 20-point power has 5 Alternate Effects (making the final cost 25 points), each Alternate Effect is still limited to a total value of 20 points (including any modifiers it may have), that of the base effect. Essentially, each Alternate Effect has to have all of the others as Alternate Effects. Since the modifier applies equally to all effects in the array, its cost is discounted in terms of the “free” points they have to spend.

Like any power, an Alternate Effect may be made up of two or more effects, but their total cost cannot exceed the cost of the primary effect.

Example: The O.M.E.G.A. battlesuit has an array of weapons drawing on a common power-source, and therefore not usable at the same time. So the suit’s gauntlet blasters (Ranged Damage) are the primary power, but the blinding strobe beam (an Affliction) and the sonic “screamers” (a different Affliction) are Alternate Effects. Since the O.M.E.G.A. suit’s enhanced artificial “musculature” also draws on the same power source, the Enhanced Strength it provides the wearer is an Alternate Effect, not usable at the same time as any of the weapons.

Alternate Effects cannot be used or maintained at the same time as other Alternates in the same array; they are mutually exclusive. Switching between Alternates requires a free action and can be done once per turn. If anything disables, nullifies, or drains any power in an array, all of them are affected in the same way.

I've bolded the important part.

[Khatoblepas]

Cool, thanks!

I knew there was something like that in there, the dispute has been solved.

[The_Snark]

It turns off. AEs are pretty simple.

Quote the Open Content Portion of M&M3E

[...]

I've bolded the important part.

I think the opposing position uses the same part to support their interpretation, actually. The book states you can't use or maintain a power when you switch to an AE, but Continuous powers don't need to be maintained (that's the whole point). Arguably they aren't being used, either, if you define use as "take a standard/move/free action to activate." It depends on whether you consider "can't use the power" to mean "can't activate the power" or "can't derive any benefit from the power at all".

I prefer the position you and the OP favor, I think it's pretty obvious that this was the designer's intent, but I've seen people argue the issue before. That may be what your fellow player and GM are thinking.

[tensai_oni]

Not sure about 3rd ed, but 2nd had a Lasting duration that stayed around even when a power in an array was switched. Continous powers were explicitly turned off when you changed to an alternate.

I don't have books at hand to check but I'm pretty sure the design philosophy is the same. Because letting Continous powers stay around when you change the power in an array would break the game.

[The_Snark]

Not sure about 3rd ed, but 2nd had a Lasting duration that stayed around even when a power in an array was switched. Continous powers were explicitly turned off when you changed to an alternate.

Can you give me a page reference for that when you get a chance? I'd love to be able to point people to it next time this comes up.

(The Lasting duration isn't officially around anymore, but only because all the powers that used it were folded into the Affliction power, which has a duration of Instant but works much the same way as the old Instant (Lasting). The power is instant, but the effects - poison, hypnosis, being turned into a toad - linger until the victim recovers.)

[tensai_oni]

Powers chapter of core rulebook, page 70.

The last sentence in the Lasting description in general says that:


A Continuous
Lasting power does not allow new saves against it at all; it lasts until
the power’s effect is countered or reversed in some way, even if you
switch to an Alternate Power (see page 108).

Bolding mine. Basically Lasting normally allows for extra saving rolls to overcome an affliction (which lasts even if the effect was Instant), but for Continous powers it allows for the power to remain active even after it's switched out.

[The_Snark]

Oh, ah - I was actually asking if you could point me to the bit where it explicitly states that continuous powers de-activate when you switch to an alternate power. You can infer from the passage you quote, because the description of Continuous duration (just a few paragraphs above) lacks that clause, but I didn't see an explicit statement.

[Beleriphon]

Oh, ah - I was actually asking if you could point me to the bit where it explicitly states that continuous powers de-activate when you switch to an alternate power. You can infer from the passage you quote, because the description of Continuous duration (just a few paragraphs above) lacks that clause, but I didn't see an explicit statement.

There isn't a single reference per se but the Continuous description is on page 95 of the Heroes Handbook:


Continuous: The effect lasts as long as you wish, without any action required on your part. Once active, it stays that way until you choose to deactivate it (a free action).

The AE section does make it pretty clear that AEs cannot be maintained once another setting is activated. Continuous powers don't require any actions to maintain but they are powered up and if you switch to another one the current AE turns off.

The under the hood section on AEs does point out that they should have a unifying theme to prevent these problems. The battlesuit example is a good one.

[Aerlock]

I'm going purely on memory here but isn't there also an explicit exception to the no Continuous powers in an Array for Continuous Create?

- Aerlock

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'm going purely on memory here but isn't there also an explicit exception to the no Continuous powers in an Array for Continuous Create?

- Aerlock
It says "Continuous Create makes objects that remain until they are destroyed, nullified, or you choose to dismiss them," but doesn't specifically mention alternate effects. Permanent Create would last, though.

[The_Snark]

It says "Continuous Create makes objects that remain until they are destroyed, nullified, or you choose to dismiss them," but doesn't specifically mention alternate effects. Permanent Create would last, though.

I don't believe Permanent effects are allowed in arrays, for obvious reasons. You might be able to persuade your GM to make an exception for a Permanent Create effect (I once built a character who had Permanent Create (limited) as part of a Plant Control array, representing the ability to make plants grow), but I think it would need to be by GM fiat.

[Aerlock]

Hrmm...maybe it was a FAQ then. I'll have to search the ATT forums and see where I'm getting this thought from.

- Aerlock

[smuchmuch]

I'm going purely on memory here but isn't there also an explicit exception to the no Continuous powers in an Array for Continuous Create?

- Aerlock

There was indeed an official amendum for the rules that said that (this was for 2nd edition mind, but no reason it wouldn't have transfered to 3rd edition), it can be found somewhere on atomic think tank

It's on this page (http://www.mutantsandmasterminds.com/gimmicks_gadgets/cat_mutants_masterminds_second_edition.php), just look for the FAQ

And yes there it is:

No. The effects of instant powers remain, since you don’t have to be “using” the power to maintain them. The same is also true of lasting powers, so long as you meet the requirements of the power’s duration. A power like Create Object, on the other hand, which has a sustained duration, will stop working if you switch to an Alternate Power. If your Create Object power is continuous, the objects will last, since they “remain until they are destroyed, nullified, or you choose to dismiss them” per the power description

There's alway been a bit of a debate as to which power beyond create object such a ruling apply, and as happens so often in M&M it ultimately boils down to the usual "GM rulling"