What do you think of Conjurer Variant Wizards?

[Shining Wrath]

I'm thinking about one of these for a future campaign.

Tier 1 noted, still better than almost anything.

Lost: Familiar, all the Wizard bonus feats including Scribe Scroll
Gained

Level 1: Augmented Summoning Feat (summoned creatures +4 to Str/Con)
Level 5, add +2 to DC to dismiss. Level 15, this goes up another +2 to +4
Level 10 and level 20, gain another +2 to Str/Con, so by 20th level summoned creatures are +8/+8
Level 1: Spontaneous Summoning: lose a prepared spell of level N, cast Summon Monster of any level less than N (so N-1, because why would you want to go down further?)
Level 1: Rapid Summoning: Summon Monster has a casting time of Standard action; monster can only take a standard action on round summoned


At level 1 this doesn't seem so hot, as the Rapid Summoning means your summoned creature has to do something without moving from the summoned square. But at higher levels it seems that the ability to drop an enhanced Celestial Bison or a 1d3 Greater Elementals (+8 Str/Con) right in someone's face as a standard action is pretty sweet. Also, the Augmented Summon shifts the balance towards "D3 off the lower level spell list".

The DM is thinking about giving us a choice between a Tier 1 or 2 character, or a gestalt Tier 5 / Tier 5 character. If I don't do this, I may dust off the Battle Dancer / Healer build I was playing with a few months back.

[Eldariel]

At level 1 this doesn't seem so hot, as the Rapid Summoning means your summoned creature has to do something without moving from the summoned square.

What? I don't know where you're getting this from but the actions of the summoned creatures should be in no way related to the action used to summon them. For reference, Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning) and Rapid Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#rapidSummoning) and Summon Monster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterI.htm).

Rapid Summoning is fine tho on level 1, you need caster level (e.g. feat or Spellgifted Trait for instance).

[Shining Wrath]

What? I don't know where you're getting this from but the actions of the summoned creatures should be in no way related to the action used to summon them. For reference, Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning) and Rapid Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#rapidSummoning) and Summon Monster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterI.htm).

Rapid Summoning is fine tho on level 1, you need caster level (e.g. feat or Spellgifted Trait for instance).


Any time a conjurer using this variant casts a summon monster spell, its casting time is 1 standard action rather than 1 full round. (Creatures so summoned can only take a standard action in the round they are summoned.) Conjurers using this variant gain the normal benefits from enhancing a summon monster spell with the Quicken Spell feat.

Summoned creature lasts 1 round / level. Since it can only take a standard the round it is summoned it will never move.

[Drachasor]

Summoned creature lasts 1 round / level. Since it can only take a standard the round it is summoned it will never move.

They can charge.


If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed).

[Shining Wrath]

They can charge.

Excellent point, I'd forgotten that nuance of charge attacks.

Edit: plus, the summoning range is 25 +5/(2 levels), so you can drop them right where you need them a fair proportion of the time.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Looks solid, are those the UA variants or homebrew?

NM just checked SRD their the UA ones.

Jeeze that spontaneous summoning one is bad.

[Shining Wrath]

Looks solid, are those the UA variants or homebrew?

NM just checked SRD their the UA ones.

Jeeze that spontaneous summoning one is bad.

I put it last for a reason, that's the best ACF of this variant.
Imagine being level 5 and putting 2 Fiendish Wolves, each with +4 Str/Con, into the fight on round 1, on opposite sides of an enemy so they can flank and make trip attacks. Imagine that the enemy in question is the enemy caster.

Good times!

Ooopppps, mis-read, spontaneous != rapid.
Usually trading down is not the best option.

BTW, the "Extend Spell" feat does seem like a natural.

[macdaddy]

I've been using Rapid Summoning on my Focused Specialist Conjurer. Its GREAT. Critter appears, partial charge, flank, *smack*.

The Cleric and Druid are like, "how do I get that?". You can't, nyah!

Waiting a full round for a critter to show up is annoying. Having it show up instantly to be a speed bump, or attack is great.

[Rubik]

Ugh. Spontaneous summoning does suck -- a lot. It wouldn't be too bad if it weren't for what you lose. 1 spell per level for a weak Summon Monster, when you could just go domain wizard and get Domain Spontaneity through that?

The level-1 wouldn't be terrible, assuming you had Sanctum Spell available. Of course, you could use an acorn of far travel for spontaneous summoning fun, but...

[gorfnab]

Here is a build option for a UA Conjurer
UA Conjurer Variants Wizard 1/ Cleric 5/ Malconvoker 9/ X Fullcasting 5 (Contemplative, Thaumaturgist, or Paragnostic Apostle have some nice features)

[Heliomance]

If you want to be summoning focused, you REALLY want to go into Malconvoker.

[ranagrande]

In my opinion, the best (non-gestalt) summoner build is Conjurer 3/Master Specialist 10/Malconvoker 5/Paragnostic Apostle 2.

Summon four monsters each round, with some nice bonuses thrown in.

[Shining Wrath]

Here is a build option for a UA Conjurer
UA Conjurer Variants Wizard 1/ Cleric 5/ Malconvoker 9/ X Fullcasting 5 (Contemplative, Thaumaturgist, or Paragnostic Apostle have some nice features)

I believe that multi-class penalties will be in effect so that's going to be a painful build.

[Heliomance]

I believe that multi-class penalties will be in effect so that's going to be a painful build.

Not if your favoured class is either Wizard or Cleric. Multi-class penalties don't apply to PrCs.

[eggynack]

The Cleric and Druid are like, "how do I get that?". You can't, nyah!

And the other druid, reveling in broader splat book knowledge, is like, "I'll probably just use golden desert honey, a chronocharm of the uncaring archmage, rapid spell, or the 12th level ability given by beast spirit in the shifter substitution levels. Nyah." Anyways, as for the OP, rapid summoning is great, though it unfortunately has to compete with abrupt jaunt, enhance summoning is decent, especially if you ditch out of wizard after 5th, cause those abilities have diminishing returns, and spontaneous summoning is bad, because you generally need your summoned creatures to be on level, and falling behind is death.

[Donox]

Not if your favoured class is either Wizard or Cleric. Multi-class penalties don't apply to PrCs.

Just curious, do you have a page number/SRD reference to support this? I understand that it is a commonly accepted fact (I accept it too) but I brought it up to my DM and I couldn't find anything to support it...

[Shining Wrath]

Just curious, do you have a page number/SRD reference to support this? I understand that it is a commonly accepted fact (I accept it too) but I brought it up to my DM and I couldn't find anything to support it...

Yeah, I don't remember that when the DMG introduced Prestige classes, and that's where I'd expect to find it.

EDIT: Teh Googlz iz yur friend! D20SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/prestigeClasses.htm)


Prestige classes offer a new form of multiclassing. Unlike the basic classes, characters must meet Requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class. Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multiclassing.


Not if your favoured class is either Wizard or Cleric. Multi-class penalties don't apply to PrCs.

You are quite right, so Human, Elf, Anthromorphic Toad, Lesser Drow, or Raptoran race lets that build work penalty-free. Charisma being important to the Malconvoker the Toad is not such a good idea.

The Lesser Drow with a neutral alignment working as a Malconvoker seems tasty fluff-wise.

[schoklat]

Lost: Familiar
Gained: Level 1: Rapid Summoning: Summon Monster has a casting time of Standard action; monster can only take a standard action on round summoned

High price, but a good trade in most combat situations.
Doesn't help if you summon monster for their damage (full attack) or out of combat though.



Lost: all the Wizard bonus feats including
Gained: Level 1: Augmented Summoning Feat (summoned creatures +4 to Str/Con) // Level 5, add +2 to DC to dismiss. Level 15, this goes up another +2 to +4 // Level 10 and level 20, gain another +2 to Str/Con, so by 20th level summoned creatures are +8/+8

A fair trade, but not as good as it looks like.
SF(Conj) is a pre-req, but certainly not a feat tax for any conjurer, and SS is something you likely want sooner or later anyway.
Dispelling summons is not a good actions-for-action trade anyway, and only the fewest of enemies can do it. The little extra Str/Con late in the game is nice, but by that time you rarely use summons just for they melee prowess.



Lose: all bonus slots
Gain: Level 1: Spontaneous Summoning: lose a prepared spell of level N, cast Summon Monster of any level less than N (so N-1, because why would you want to go down further?)

A quite bad trade.
Imagine you put in a summon in all L3+ bonus slots, Mage Armor in the L1 and Glitterdust in L2. Then remember you can still prepare a bunch of summons normally, because summons are not just good for combat stuff, but for large bunch of other reasons... skills, SLA, trap fodder, etc... so using them in some of your regular slots as well is no waste. And all summons let you trade down on the list to get even more creatures anyway.
Or you could get gimped spontaneous and waste a large number of good spells slots / day.

[Heliomance]

SF(Conj) is a pre-req, but certainly not a feat tax for any conjurer, and SS is something you likely want sooner or later anyway.

It absolutely is a feat tax. There are very few Conjuration spells with saves. And certainly none of the summoning spells have saves.

[schoklat]

It absolutely is a feat tax. There are very few Conjuration spells with saves. And certainly none of the summoning spells have saves.

Grease, Gillterdust, Stinking Cloud, ... would like a word with you. :smallamused:

[eggynack]

Grease, Gillterdust, Stinking Cloud, ... would like a word with you. :smallamused:
It's just a very... quantitative benefit for a wizard. You should be pushing your magic to new places, instead of just gaining marginal numeric advantages.

[Heliomance]

Grease, Gillterdust, Stinking Cloud, ... would like a word with you. :smallamused:

I didn't say none, I said very few. Conjuration is the school with the most no-save-just-suck spells.

[schoklat]

It's just a very... quantitative benefit for a wizard. You should be pushing your magic to new places, instead of just gaining marginal numeric advantages.

It just isn't the point of the discussion. The OP wanted to improve his summons. And I suggested he'd be better off to buy Augmented Summoning regularly, instead of giving up SS and all his Wizard bonus spells.


I didn't say none, I said very few. Conjuration is the school with the most no-save-just-suck spells.

... which are incidentally considered some of the best early BFC spells, while still having some nice utility. Plus they are the ideal move to hit the enemy with after summoning something in r1.

[eggynack]

It just isn't the point of the discussion. The OP wanted to improve his summons. And I suggested he'd be better off to buy Augmented Summoning regularly, instead of giving up SS and all his Wizard bonus spells.
Indeed. However, your argument partially relies on the idea of spell focus (conjuration) not being a feat tax. That means that it has to be something that you'd take without much prerequisite pressure, and I don't really agree with that claim. Granted, the issue of spell focus as a feat tax isn't the only issue, and it's highly possible that just taking the feat is the superior option, but it's an important factor.

[schoklat]

Indeed. However, your argument partially relies on the idea of spell focus (conjuration) not being a feat tax. That means that it has to be something that you'd take without much prerequisite pressure, and I don't really agree with that claim. Granted, the issue of spell focus as a feat tax isn't the only issue, and it's highly possible that just taking the feat is the superior option, but it's an important factor.

For me personally that would depend on a number of factors like...
* available source material
* flavour of that particular conjurer
* OP level at the table (break nothing vs break combat vs break the game)

[Eldariel]

For a Wizard, Spell Focus: Conju is frankly probably the best spell focus (the usual complaints are about Druid, who doesn't really get that many good SoX Conjurations). Conjuration is pretty much the only school that can target all saves with powerful save-or-X effects, and you get them early. Since Spell Focus is also a prerequisite for many good classes (such as Master Specialist and Archmage), it's not all that bad. Cloudy Conjuration would fall on the list too.

[sjeshin]

I've been using Rapid Summoning on my Focused Specialist Conjurer. Its GREAT. Critter appears, partial charge, flank, *smack*.

The Cleric and Druid are like, "how do I get that?". You can't, nyah!

Waiting a full round for a critter to show up is annoying. Having it show up instantly to be a speed bump, or attack is great.

If you want to help out your cleric, he can get it with divine metamagic rapid spell. If you don't, tell him to take 1 level in wizard. Then smile.