Girallon Hellfire Grasp

[GhengisConrad]

"A disciple of Mephistopheles can deal 1d6 points of fire damage as a touch attack at will. This damage is added to damage dealt by other unarmed attacks"

So... 4 claw attacks would each get 1d6 touch attack chance?

[Lateral]

No, but each of those claws would +1d6 fire damage. (Not touch, though you could still make one touch attack for 1d6 fire.)

[GhengisConrad]

If the claw 'misses' it still has a touch attack chance, no? Multiple hands means multiple touch attack chances, no?

[Greenish]

If the claw 'misses' it still has a touch attack chance, no? Multiple hands means multiple touch attack chances, no?No. No.

The touch attack is a standard action. The damage added to unarmed attacks is part of said attacks.

[GhengisConrad]

wait, so, oozemaster's touch attack also wouldn't be added to any kind of an unarmed attack either?

[Greenish]

Oozemaster is written weird. You can use unarmed strikes in place of touch attacks to deliver spells, but I don't know whether that applies to Su abilities. I also can't tell whether Oozy Touch is a single attack.

[GhengisConrad]

but in general, a touch attack can be delivered through an unarmed attack right? And in such a case, attacking witha natural weapon (claws) would also deliver said touch attack, right? no?

[Boci]

Yes you can make a touch attack with a claw. A creature with 2 or 4 claws could full attack, making touch attacks each time, but without a second ability, the touch attacks would do nothing, and most abilities that do require a touch attack require a standard action, meaning you can only do it with 1 claw attack, no matter how many you have.

[GhengisConrad]

and oozemaster?

"Minor Oozy Touch (Su): At First level, the oozemaster's hand can secrete a specific kind of ooze. Choose one kind of oozy touch from the table below. The character may, as a full attack action, make a melee touch attack that has the effect listed for that kind of ooze on the table below"

The melee touch attack would be the full attack action? or it's a part of any full attack action?

I guess, I envision a Disciple of Mephistopheles Ooozemaster Girallon fighter with a Bab of size dealing 5 attacks, each gaining 1d6 fire and 1d6 mold damage.

Would this not be the case?

[Averis Vol]

no, it wouldn't. it says as a full round action, not as part of one.

[Boci]

No, they would have to choose to deal 1d6 fire damage as a standard action (which is what Su abilities default to) or a full round action to deliver whichever ooze touch they had selected. They only get one attack, because only 1 attack is specified in the abilities descriptions. Now neither is that powerful, so balance-wise there is no harm in allowing each to be used as attack actions. Do note however that the stunning damage provided by ochre jelly doesn't exist by the rules to be best of my knowledge, and if they meant stunned for 1d4 rounds then that one ability will need closer examination.

[GhengisConrad]

oooookkkkaaaayyy I think I'm getting it now.

as a touch attack means, you gotta use the standard action touch attack. okay. yup. got it.

now, however, hellfire grasp, which is 'at will' says: "This damage is added to damage dealt by other unarmed attacks". This would confer also then such a damage bonus unto the claw attack?

[GhengisConrad]

“A disciple of Mephistopheles can deal 1d6 points of fire damage as a touch attack at will. This damage is added to damage dealt by other unarmed attacks"'

So if I understand correectily, each of those claws would +1d6 fire damage, and if I miss on those rolls, on one of those rolls I could roll to see if I made at least a touch attack? Or... what?

[Boci]

“A disciple of Mephistopheles can deal 1d6 points of fire damage as a touch attack at will. This damage is added to damage dealt by other unarmed attacks"'

So if I understand correectily, each of those claws would +1d6 fire damage, and if I miss on those rolls, on one of those rolls I could roll to see if I made at least a touch attack? Or... what?

You are probably right on the first, since it specifies an attack and not a standard action you can full attack with the flame touch. But if you miss with a regular attack you cannot then check against touch AC or reroll as a touch attack, you have to decide if you are targetting regular or touch AC before you roll for attack.

[Thurbane]

If you want to get technical by RAW, do natural weapons count as unarmed attacks?

[Boci]

If you want to get technical by RAW, do natural weapons count as unarmed attacks?

Well there is that too. But I think most DMs won't be too concerned with that detail.

[GhengisConrad]

Well there is that too. But I think most DMs won't be too concerned with that detail.

Mine would... so you're saying by RAW... it's claw attacks would not do the thing?

Claw Attacks are not Unarmed Attacks?

I know if I added magic to my claw attack, my monk unarmed attack would gain benefit. RAW the stream doesn't flow both ways?

What makes me REALLY wonder, is that it says 'other' unarmed attacks; whering usual verbage just refers to unarmed attacks. Other compared to what? Touch attack? So its somehow 'categorizing' touch attacks as unarmed?

[GhengisConrad]

I think this would work just like.. you know, the other 1 level arcane spell; shocking grasp. Just like a nerfed permanent version that doesn't travel through a weapon (can't think right now; can you cast shocking grasp through your weapon?).

RAW seems iffy and RAI seems clear. It's a demonic version of schoking grasp.

[Greenish]

Claw Attacks are not Unarmed Attacks?Well, if you have natural weapons, you're considered armed…


I know if I added magic to my claw attack, my monk unarmed attack would gain benefit.That's not true, not universally. Amulet of Mighty Fists applies all natural weapons, but most spells and effects only target one.


I think this would work just like.. you know, the other 1 level arcane spell; shocking grasp. Just like a nerfed permanent version that doesn't travel through a weapon (can't think right now; can you cast shocking grasp through your weapon?).Shocking Grasp is a touch attack. You'd need to be a Duskblade or similar to channel it through a weapon.


RAW seems iffy and RAI seems clear. It's a demonic version of schoking grasp.RAI doesn't stand for "stuff I made up". The only similarity Shocking Grasp has with the Hellfire Grasp is that they're touch attacks that deal damage.

[Boci]

What are you trying to achieve buildwise? 3.5 is pretty vaste, and you seem to have access to a decent number of source books. Maybe we can help you find an easier way to achieve what you want. Are you looking for an unnarmed/natural weapon user who can add multiple flavours of energy to his attacks?

[GhengisConrad]

What are you trying to achieve buildwise [...] . Are you looking for an unnarmed/natural weapon user who can add multiple flavours of energy to his attacks?

yes. That is exactly what I am loooking for. Multiple energies and bonus damages.

I enjoy rolling 8 dice at once for like 7 different applied powers/abilities

[Boci]

Warshaper is a prestige class that allows you to grow theoretically unlimited natural attack by RAW, talk with your DM about a sensible limit. Qualifying requires some ability to alteryour form, playing a shifter or changling works well as they have the shapechanger subtype (which also qualifies), although there may be some problems with the changling.
Incarnum users can shape quasi magical items that buff themselves, and totemist is the incarnum class that specializes in natural attacks.
Necklace of natural weapons will allow you to enchant your natural weapons as you could a melee weapon, including flame, cold, acid, lightning ect.

Do you have access to Complete Warrior, Magic of Incarnum and Savage Species?

[GhengisConrad]

Well, if you have natural weapons, you're considered armed…
Shocking Grasp is a touch attack. You'd need to be a Duskblade or similar to channel it through a weapon.


Would you need to be Duskblade to channel it through your claw attack...?

I'm fairly certain that touch attacks can be delivered by holding the charge. Why can't I hold the charge of Hellfire Grasp?

-----------------------

Its interesting, alot of the wording in this book. For example, page 48 under

DEFORMITY (CLAWED HANDS) [VILE]

The character has the ability to deal 1d6 points of
damage as an unarmed claw attack. The character is consid-
ered armed even when unarmed


seems someone considered claw attacks 'unarmed' even though you are considered armed even when unarmed....

Only vile claws would confer the benefit? Or am I gravely (or should I say 'fiendishly') misunderstanding something?

[Greenish]

The designers were as confused about unarmed/natural weapons rules interactions as we are.

[GhengisConrad]

So whats the final verdict here?

Girallon Diciple of Mephisopheles does 4 claw attacks. Do these each do 1d6 fire damage or not?

I'd say they do, because 'at will' means whenever, so mechanically you can just keep charging each attack, and its also say 'unarmed attacks' which would include multiple attacks, especially since they are apparently considering claw attacks an unarmed attack.

We need like 75% consensus on the RAW for my group to take this. What do you kids think?

[Greenish]

"At will" means that there is no limit to the times you can do something. It does not comment on the action required to do so.

[Boci]

From PHB:
"unarmed attack: A melee attack made with no weapon in hand."

From Monster Manual:
"Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.Unless otherwise noted, a natural weapon threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 20."

So Rules as makes sense: Yes, DoM's ability should trigger on all touch attacks made with claws, and probably all regular attacks with claws too. RAW: Maybe not, although you can argue that naturals weapons fit the PHB parameters for an unarmed attack. One thing though, at will does not mean whenever, it means it can be used an unlimited amount of times per day.