+1 BAB feat is it abusable?

[tricktroller]

Ok Folks of the PLayground,
So I use the AEG featbook for a lot of theory crafting builds because I get bored mostly and because I have a group that plays with it.

There is a feat call Elven blood, Fire elf prereqs Str13+ Dex 17+ elf
Your base attack bonus increases by one.

Now how would you best use this to your advantage?

I personally got bored and wrote up a sacred fist using it.

Cloistered cleric 4 monk 2 sacred fist 10 cloistered cleric 4 leaving me with 18th level cleric casting and 16 Base Attack Bonus.

I am sure there are many easier things to exploit, so what have you got.

[pwykersotz]

Does this grant extra iterative attacks?

[GameSpawn]

Using it to qualify early for prestige classes is the first thing that pops into my mind. Not sure specifically what I'd use it for.

[Telonius]

Possible early entry to some PrCs, if you time it right. I could see this benefiting someone who takes a bunch of half-BAB levels but still wants a second (or third) iterative.

[Suddo]

Using it to qualify early for prestige classes is the first thing that pops into my mind. Not sure specifically what I'd use it for.

This. Probably for a gish type character though the stat requirements make that kind of hard.

[tricktroller]

Alright, now that we have gotten the ambiguous information out of the way,such as using it for a PRC :P

Which is what I put an example of :P

Let's talk about some actual uses of it.

By taking it you can get into Sacred fist with its BAB +4 requirement with 4 levels of cloistered cleric half bab and 2 levels of monk 3/4 BAB

After feat Before feat
CC 1 0
M 1 0
M 2 1
CC 3 2
CC 3 2
CC 4 3

So the feat lets us get into sacred fist two levels earlier with a cloistered cleric so we don;t waste heavy armor prof etc.

its also kind of fun for flavor in my opinion and I also was thinking about going even a step further and making my cloistered cleric monk take a vow of poverty though I know this site hates that feat chain.


So what are some other things? Abjurant champ needs 5 so that helps wizard a little but not a whole lot.


And to answer you pwyker, I would assume so up to 4 iterative attacks. There is nothing that says you can't get an iterative attack at 21 BAB but as far as I know this is the only thing that could send your BAB over 20.

[pwykersotz]

It's not super broken, but you could qualify for Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) at level 2 which would grant immunity to mind-affecting effects as a Su ability at level 10.

Edit: The tricks that would let you do that at level 1 are probably more broken than the actual effect.

[Emperor Tippy]

Early PrC entry.

[ranagrande]

I could see it being incredibly useful for some builds in E6.

[tricktroller]

*Has Aneurysm*

Yes folks I know that it allows for early entry into PRC's. Which ones would you use it to get entry into?

Abujrant Champion and Sacred fist I have already listed.

Also how on earth would you get into SLayer at level 2? You would have to be 3 at least for the +4 BAB requirement.

Haha! I hadn't thought about E6 good job!

[Curmudgeon]

There is nothing that says you can't get an iterative attack at 21 BAB but as far as I know this is the only thing that could send your BAB over 20.
The rules don't use a formula for iterative attacks, so there are no extra attacks from having a BAB of +21 or more.
base attack bonus

An attack roll bonus derived from character class and level. Base attack bonuses increase at different rates for different character classes. A character gains a second attack when his or her base attack bonus reaches +6, a third with a base attack bonus of +11 or higher, and a fourth with a base attack bonus of +16 or higher. Base attack bonuses gained from different classes, such as when a character is a multiclass character, stack. Doesn't matter how much higher than +16 you go; 4 attacks is the limit.

[tricktroller]

Fair enough, while it isn't strictly prohibited and the progression is obvious, if it isn't expressly allowed it doesn't make it so either. So no 5 attacks a turn form BAB.

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm pretty sure it's stated outright somewhere. Also notice that monsters who legitimately get a BAB higher than 20 are still limited to 4 attacks.



As for uses of the feat, it could help a character qualify for stuff like Weapon Finesse at level 1 (assuming the use of Flaws or something else that gets you another feat).

[Emperor Tippy]

The rules don't use a formula for iterative attacks, so there are no extra attacks from having a BAB of +21 or more. Doesn't matter how much higher than +16 you go; 4 attacks is the limit.

True enough, didn't bother to check the specific wording.

[pwykersotz]

Also how on earth would you get into Slayer at level 2? You would have to be 3 at least for the +4 BAB requirement.

I assumed that you could take the feat multiple times and that the benefits stack.

Level 1 Human Psychic Warrior (BAB 1) with two flaws gets you 5 feats. Take the BAB+1 four times and Track with the other. If BAB+1 counts as a Fighter Bonus Feat, so much the better. If not, you might need to use Dark Chaos Shuffle or something else to swap your bonus feat.

[KillianHawkeye]

I assumed that you could take the feat multiple times and that the benefits stack.

That's exactly the opposite of the assumption you should be making. Traditionally, feats do not stack with themselves without a specific mention in the feat's description.

[Hamste]

It could be nice with War hulk so you can get iteratives and use power attack a bit more

[pwykersotz]

That's exactly the opposite of the assumption you should be making. Traditionally, feats do not stack with themselves without a specific mention in the feat's description.

Oh, definitely. I had too much fun thinking of my Psion with this build though. Sometimes I let amusement take precedence. :smalltongue:

[tricktroller]

it is a bloodgift feat which can only be taken once at 1st level. I thought it might be interesting to use a changeling or mongrelfolk to take it with racial emulation.

[Cog]

Abjurant Champion was already mentioned, but now you can fit both all of it and Swiftblade into a level 20 build without jumping through hoops.

With a flaw, an elf Rogue can get Weapon Finesse at level one. Devastating!

[animewatcha]

Can this feat be taken more than once despite being at 1st level?

[Uncle Pine]

I'm surprised that Chaos Shuffle has only been barely mentioned, because it's really the only thing that makes this feat abusable that I can think of. Think about it: just being an elf nets you +4 BAB if you trade your racial proficiencies!
Otherwise, it's probably a nice (but not overpowered) feat that makes some BAB-starved builds possible, as others already pointed out.

[Andezzar]

I would not bother with it on a build that casts at least as a CL 7 cleric. Divine Power usually takes care of all your BAB needs. Better invest in Persistent Spell and DMM: Persistent Spell.

@Uncle Pine: Feats do not stack unless they say so.

[tricktroller]

it is a bloodgift feat which can only be taken once at 1st level. I thought it might be interesting to use a changeling or mongrelfolk to take it with racial emulation.

Ahem. Can't be taken more than once and has the qualifier only at first level.

[Nightraiderx]

Prestige Paladin Early entry by a cleric 4... Early Entry into Kotr by Cleric 3.

wizard 5/Swiftblade 10/Abjurrant champion 5, gish tastic with 8th lvl spells and 17 bab, was probably already mentioned.

[Coidzor]

Ahem. Can't be taken more than once and has the qualifier only at first level.

Then, no, you can't really abuse it except for *maybe* in E6. Hell, you can hardly use it since not only do you have to be an Elf, you have to be a Fire Elf looking to gain entry to prestige classes that require Full or Near-Full BAB or playing something like a Magus with 3/4 BAB that wants a 4th attack without multiclassing.

And if you're gishing or giving a Magus/Monk/Bard/Totemist a 4th iterative attack at level 20, there's not a whole lot of room for abuse.


Haha! I hadn't thought about E6 good job!

Whether that can lead to any abuse depends on the nature of the build, since it has to only lose one BAB which is replaced by the feat in order to qualify for the BAB 6 prerequisite capstone feats.

Though it's been a while since I've boned up on E6, and I think I recall that it actually demanded something like 6 levels in full-BAB classes(rather than 6+ BAB) or staying a single-classed Fighter(:smallyuk:) to qualify for feats as if one's BAB were 8 or higher.


That's exactly the opposite of the assumption you should be making. Traditionally, feats do not stack with themselves without a specific mention in the feat's description.

If someone presents a feat like this without the full text and wonders if it has the potential to be abused, well... the only way it could have any potential for abuse is if one could take it multiple times, now isn't it?

So I can see *why* someone would have been lead to think it would have to be able to be taken multiple times to justify it being worth mentioning. Still wrong, but...


it is a bloodgift feat which can only be taken once at 1st level. I thought it might be interesting to use a changeling or mongrelfolk to take it with racial emulation.

Neither of those is really great for gishing though. I suppose a Changeling might want to do some skill-gishing or be a sneak-attacking spellcaster, but none of the PrCs for that really focus on BAB as far as I recall.

Mongrelfolk have great Con so I suppose a Mongrelfolk Totemist might find it of interest in their quest to get as many attacks as possible, especially if they take the Stormguard Warrior feat. Mongrelfolk love to go dragonborn though, so it's a tradeoff between keeping their racial emulation ability(IIRC) and being able to pick up racial flight, a breath weapon, or better sensory abilities... Though I suppose its class abilities help with that, aside from the breath weapons from Totemist being decidedly sub-par.

[Talderas]

Early PrC entry.

This is about the only big use to the feat. If +1 BAB is granting you the next iterative there's a good chance that extra iterative attack is going to miss more than it hits. That's not a good tradeoff for a feat.

[Andezzar]

wizard 5/Swiftblade 10/Abjurrant champion 5, gish tastic with 8th lvl spells and 17 bab, was probably already mentioned.Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom 10/Abjurant Champion on an ousider or with the militia feat gives you 9th level Spells at CL 19 and 17 BAB. You don't get Ex Haste though.

[tricktroller]

Ok folks what do you think about this?

Using the feat for +1 BAB as early qualification to do

Crusader 3/ Prestige Paladin 3/ Divine Crusader 10/ Crusader 4

Gets me 9th level spells from a domain, 6th level maneuvers and a bunch of paladin stuff. I'm sure it isn't the most powerful thing ever but it could probably be a fun Melee character.

[Andezzar]

You cannot qualify for Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) with Crusader levels because you need to be able to cast Protection from Evil as a divine spell. Even if you somehow got that spell before, the Divine Crusader casting would not improve:
At every odd numbered level reached, the prestige paladin gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in whatever divine spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class.

[tricktroller]

Ok well not a big deal, Ignore the prestige paladin and just go Crusader into Divine Crusader at 6th.

[Totema]

Might it be useful for accessing Arcane Hierophant early? Neither druid nor wizard have good BAB progressions, but is sinking that feat worth it? I guess it also requires you to be a little MAD, so I'm having my doubts.

[Invader]

I wouldn't say it becomes broken unless you can take it multiple times making those entry tactics especially easy and you're getting into those classes 4-5 levels early and/or it gives to iterative attacks.

[Raimun]

Sure, some builds could really use this but it's not a must have for over 99,9% of them.

If you really get some mileage out of this, good for you. It can't be that broken.

[tricktroller]

Ok well less focus on the word abusable and more on what to use it for.

[Gemini476]

Ok well less focus on the word abusable and more on what to use it for.

Early

entry

for Prestige Classes.

More specifically, it's fantastic in E6 (Iteratives without taking six straight levels in Full BAB classes? Hallelujah!), and decent outside it.
For a more specific example, it lets you get into Eternal Blade early. You're already an elf, so getting around that +10BAB requirement is amazing.
Actually, there are a bunch of Elfin Prestige Classes that require moderately high BAB to enter, like Arcane Archer. I don't know why you'd want many levels in AA, but still.

Oh, and it (effectively) gives 3/4BAB classes Full BAB for the first four levels. That's useful.

[Andezzar]

Oh, and it (effectively) gives 3/4BAB classes Full BAB for the first four levels. That's useful.And it gives them the 4th attack. Or a 3rd for those with low BAB.

[Person_Man]

I personally have no problem with a player spending a Feat in order to qualify for a Feat early. For example, Whatever 1/Fighter 4 getting Shock Trooper or Leap Attack one level early.

Similarly, I have no problem with players qualifying for prestige classes that do not progress a subsystem (spells, psionics, vestiges, maneuvers, soulmelds) early, especially if it's low-Tier build. Though honestly, if you're going to allow early entry into a PrC that doesn't progress a subsystem, in most cases you can just let the player use it as a base class. (On a case by case basis. I'm sure there are some cases where you wouldn't want an ECL 6ish ability for a level 1 class).

[Coidzor]

Ok well less focus on the word abusable and more on what to use it for.

Early Entry for PrCs, as has been mentioned. Especially earlier entry for Gishes, I believe. Wizard 6 gets +4 BAB that way, Wizard 2 gets +2 BAB, and Wizard 4 gets +3 BAB. So one could enter Swiftblade at Wizard 5 instead of more typical Wizard 6. Wizard 4/Full BAB 1 for entry into Spellsword then entry into Abjurant Champion.

4th Iterative attack for 3/4 BAB classes or builds when using fractional BAB, 3rd Iterative attack for lower BAB classes/builds. Though this is of variable utility, and probably only really comes into its own in Epic levels or with classes that are able to throw on a bunch of bonuses to hit.

There *might* be some cases where a feat which has a BAB requirement 1 point above the BAB one would have when one gained a feat, forcing one to wait 3 levels to have the BAB necessary to take the feat, though I don't imagine those to be very common.

[Gemini476]

There *might* be some cases where a feat which has a BAB requirement 1 point above the BAB one would have when one gained a feat, forcing one to wait 3 levels to have the BAB necessary to take the feat, though I don't imagine those to be very common.

Fighters get feats at level 4, 8, 10, 14, and 16. Although only 4, 10 and 16 are very relevant.
I'm sure that there are some feats out there, although I haven't checked.

[Andezzar]

Fighters get feats at level 4, 8, 10, 14, and 16. Although only 4, 10 and 16 are very relevant.
I'm sure that there are some feats out there, although I haven't checked.Fighters get bonus feats every other level (besides first level). So 1,2,4,6,8,10...

[Nightraiderx]

You'd just have to throw off the levels, say with a Barbarian level, so that your 4th lvl fighter feat would fall on lvl 5.

[Gemini476]

Fighters get bonus feats every other level (besides first level). So 1,2,4,6,8,10...
Yes, but for levels 4,10, and 16 there are two levels left until non-fighters can have them as feats.

Hence why I answered the quote that way.